On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote: Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled.
I'll second this.
One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army.
Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines.
Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.
That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ.
It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game.
I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved...
That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options.
Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back.
But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles).
I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio.
Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching.
What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup.
Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were.
Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ.
Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really.
Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push.
The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map.
While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time.
If these things go through I'll simply give up on Protoss and switch races. I think I'm not gonna be alone in that decision. Every time Protoss does decently they decide to buff Terran & Zerg which is absolutely ridiculous, because those two races have dominated the game since the Beta.
I think a good portion of you doesn't really understand how big these changes really are and how negatively they will affect the game.
On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote: Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled.
I'll second this.
One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army.
Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines.
Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.
That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ.
It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game.
I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved...
That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options.
Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back.
But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles).
I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio.
Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching.
What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup.
Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were.
Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ.
Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really.
Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push.
The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map.
While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time.
God, BW was so awesome to watch...
I never actually watched any of the gom classic series. Any particular games you would recommend now that they're free and everyone can see classic tasteless?
On August 14 2013 01:44 renaissanceMAN wrote: why do we need to help TvZ?
Didn't Blizzard just say that TvZ is relatively balanced on all levels?
according to this post from DK, the matchup is balanced "until the very late game when there are so many skirmishes and so many Widow Mines". (I believe he means what we usually call the midgame or late-midgame)
On August 14 2013 01:44 renaissanceMAN wrote: why do we need to help TvZ?
Didn't Blizzard just say that TvZ is relatively balanced on all levels?
according to this post from DK, the matchup is balanced "until the very late game when there are so many skirmishes and so many Widow Mines". (I believe he means what we usually call the midgame or late-midgame)
Casters have been calling it the late game as well for some reason. Infact half the casters I've watched seem to call any time past 12 minutes the late game which is crazy.
On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote: Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled.
I'll second this.
One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army.
Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines.
Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.
That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ.
It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game.
I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved...
That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options.
Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back.
But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles).
I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio.
Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching.
What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup.
Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were.
Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ.
Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really.
Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push.
The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map.
While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time.
On August 14 2013 01:44 renaissanceMAN wrote: why do we need to help TvZ?
Didn't Blizzard just say that TvZ is relatively balanced on all levels?
according to this post from DK, the matchup is balanced "until the very late game when there are so many skirmishes and so many Widow Mines". (I believe he means what we usually call the midgame or late-midgame)
Casters have been calling it the late game as well for some reason. Infact half the casters I've watched seem to call any time past 12 minutes the late game which is crazy.
I know, especially considering a huge portion of the community considers attacking before the 12 minute mark as an all-in.
On August 14 2013 01:44 renaissanceMAN wrote: why do we need to help TvZ?
Didn't Blizzard just say that TvZ is relatively balanced on all levels?
according to this post from DK, the matchup is balanced "until the very late game when there are so many skirmishes and so many Widow Mines". (I believe he means what we usually call the midgame or late-midgame)
Casters have been calling it the late game as well for some reason. Infact half the casters I've watched seem to call any time past 12 minutes the late game which is crazy.
I know, especially considering a huge portion of the community considers attacking before the 12 minute mark as an all-in.
With good reasoning: ~10mins is the time it takes players to safely build 3bases and their core production/tech structures and start upgrading. Add a little time to build an army and you are at 12mins.
If you commit to an attack earlier, you will lack some of that setup, which leaves you in a bad situation if you can't do damage.
On August 13 2013 05:03 bludragen88 wrote: I'm going to laugh when some protoss loads up HT at the viper timing and instead of storm drops goes for feedback drops as they hatch out of the eggs. Would be way more of a pimpest play than overseer contaminate on pathogen glands before infestors pop.
Yeah feedback-dropping is going to be such a strong move if you hit it right. This might even be a protoss-buff.
On August 13 2013 05:03 bludragen88 wrote: I'm going to laugh when some protoss loads up HT at the viper timing and instead of storm drops goes for feedback drops as they hatch out of the eggs. Would be way more of a pimpest play than overseer contaminate on pathogen glands before infestors pop.
Yeah feedback-dropping is going to be such a strong move if you hit it right. This might even be a protoss-buff.
How will they know which hatchery they are coming out of?
On August 13 2013 05:03 bludragen88 wrote: I'm going to laugh when some protoss loads up HT at the viper timing and instead of storm drops goes for feedback drops as they hatch out of the eggs. Would be way more of a pimpest play than overseer contaminate on pathogen glands before infestors pop.
Yeah feedback-dropping is going to be such a strong move if you hit it right. This might even be a protoss-buff.
How will they know which hatchery they are coming out of?
Irony, here. You, far far away.
Dont know about the proposed changes. Some seem good, others contradictory.
On August 13 2013 05:03 bludragen88 wrote: I'm going to laugh when some protoss loads up HT at the viper timing and instead of storm drops goes for feedback drops as they hatch out of the eggs. Would be way more of a pimpest play than overseer contaminate on pathogen glands before infestors pop.
Yeah feedback-dropping is going to be such a strong move if you hit it right. This might even be a protoss-buff.
Woah. Orwell would be proud of that doublethink.
edit: Touch disturbed I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.
There is a very very easy fix for Zerg vs Terran, give Zerg a permanent splash unit - P have Storm + Colossi, T has mines, Z has Banes which are one-charge and too easy to kill before they have an opportunity to spash anything. Infestor buff maybe, but you struggle to get them out in time for the huge MMMM push
On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote: Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me.
It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's.
30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities.
Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change.
The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count.
EPT
