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On September 05 2013 07:51 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 07:41 Insoleet wrote:On September 05 2013 07:38 11B wrote:stop comparing units 1 per 1 it's rediculously stupid. I'll post the link when I find it ^^....... a random Korean pro-gaming house (forget the exact name of team..and Yes, it's translated lol) making similar comparisons as myself. Just because a Korean team, or at least some of its members think as I do doesn't make my point of view right by any means........but I KNOW i'm not the only one. And it's certainly not ridiculously stupid. Its quite sane ^^. For the record, my favorite suggested fix to this has been to leave everything about the Hydra s it is, but make the upgrade +2 range instead of +1.
I actually really, really like that idea. Well I think that would actually be IMBA ,,,,,, and definitely much more powerful than my suggestion. But I like it :D. Well since zerg is the macro race, units shouldnt necessary win in 1 vs 1, but they should win thanks to the fast rebuild of the army But stronger hydra could be quite cool to see. They are just not as scary as, i'd say, Swarmhost, muta or infestors. And are being countered rather easily by chargelot/stalkers. That's a stupid and outdated concept. There is no once macro race, no one cheese race, no one defensive race. The way they all go about, fighting, defending and macroing is different, that's asymmetric balance, that doesn't relegate one race to one role or another, it just makes the way they go about doing their things very different. I wish people would stop thinking in these archaic concepts, based on what composition one goes for a Terran can be as aggressive and in your face as a zerg (4M) or as defensive and turtly as a protoss (Mech), a protoss can be as obnoxious and cheesey and harass oriented as he wants (GW, timings, SG, DTs, WP play) or he can be as turtly as possible (skytoss compositions), zerg can be as explosive and economical as he desires with various hatch first and triple hatch builds, or he be as sneaky, slimy and all-inish as he wants (bane busts, roach busts, nydus etc). You can't have asymetric balance the way you did in BW, where once race had to and could get on more bases and have more workers and relied on making and dumping more armies at the enemy, because in SC2 there is an optimal number of workers per base and an optimal number of bases to have. Within the confines of that economy all races must function, thus, while doing things differently, they must ultimately still reach a similar goal.
so much nonsense.. Yes sure all races can do different styles but it's definately so that some are just more effective than others. Practically speaking terran must be super aggressive, any prolonged turtle style just means they lose basically given how weak mech is. There is still a balance in sc2 where the economies differ.. zerg and terran mine significantly more than protoss.. it may not be the classic 1 base up anymore for zerg but zerg still needs a bigger mid/lategame economy.. There is still some leeway in how many bases you can use but it is indeed smaller. Still you have 60 worker economies but also up to 80 for zerg.
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On September 05 2013 08:15 theBlues wrote:
If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise.
If Blizzard doesn't do something radical like that, I'm leaving Starcraft 2 for another game. Its a promise.
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On August 13 2013 07:56 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 07:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 13 2013 07:52 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 13 2013 07:49 Sated wrote:On August 13 2013 07:46 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 07:44 halfaspider wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can pretend like widow mines aren't a huge problem when ONE SHOT of a widow mine often kills 15-20 banelings-- well over 10x the cost of the widow mine with essentially no micro required. Just nerf them. Get better as Starcraft 2 and that won't happen as much. Such all-or-nothing units are bad design. Mines, Oracles, etc. HotS is a clusterfuck compared to WoL. WoL had balance issues, but they would've been relatively easy to fix compared to how hard it would be to fix the design problems that HotS has... I've felt that way since HOTS was released. The most important unit on the field right now in TvZ is the Widow, it does the most damage, for both races. How Widow Mines hit decides the battle. I just watched Targa vs ForGG and the hits were very unpredictable, the game has become a coin flip. Either the Mines do a lot of damage to Zerg, or they don't and worse do a lot of damage to Terran. They have way to big an influence on the game. I always liked Widow Mines, they introduce the good-kind of volatility, like Spider mines and dud-prone-scarabs. I never watched BW, but my guess is that I would not have like Spider Mines or Scarabs if they were very random. My guess is that Spider Mines were used differently though, because Tanks had a role in the game. It is a lot easier to predict the damage done by Widow Mines protecting Tanks than those that are burrowed and unburrowed quickly supporting a fast moving Bio force.
Nah, they're not as random.
I always liked Widow Mines, they introduce the good-kind of volatility, like Spider mines and dud-prone-scarabs
Spider Mans and Scarabs (and anything in BW) are no where near as volatile as the stuff in SC2.
Spider Mines can be defused and/or pulled away easily (much more so than Widow Mines).
With Scarabs, the longer they travel (and the more things that get in the way of their pathing), the more likely they will dud and do no damage.
Both were much more predictable (and also can be controlled to a certain extent) by both players (to be fair Widow Mines can be controlled by both players but the potential damage output and the potential no damage output is much bigger than Spider Mines or Scarabs).
They did had elements of random but not as much as Widow Mines since they were slower and dealt less potential damage due to lack of clumping. You can control both more easily. Spider Mines were defused frequently (or used in a way against the Terran) and same with Reavers + Scarabs (you could have the unit the scarab is targeting try to run in such a way that the scarabs get their pathing blocked or you could move a unit in front of the scarab that wasn't the target if it was fast or big enough).
About Widow Mines - I think their AoE should be capped at 10 units (or the AoE should do a max of a certain amount of damage). Both are possible in the editor (for the former, there's a "Max Targets" which is set to 0 which is unlimited by default and for the latter it's a bit more tricky but possible in the trigger editor and may potentially be possible using the data editor too).
The posts back I agree with (the new units being more all or nothing).
Also about skillful usage of units in SC2 vs BW.
In BW, with things like how any unit without any attack animation can be used, etc, it allowed much more varied and fun play and also active and aggressive micro compared to SC2 where micro is more defensive (splitting marines against banelings or splitting against widow mines, etc). There are comparable things (blink micro) but for the most part, a lot of micro is more focused defensively than offensive compared to BW.
Speaking of BW, I think the thing that made it much better than SC2 is probably how you can control units without attack animations. That and it was much less random in the sense that you don't have 50 units dying to one thing (whether it's banelings or widow mines). Even Psi Storm (which in terms of stats, had a bigger AoE and dealt a ton more damage) is probably actually weaker in BW compared to SC2 (I mean in BW, while a good placed storm would take out a ton of units, it wasn't a big of a problem due to lack of clumping and the fact that units were naturally much more spread out in general).
Speaking of Psi Storm in BW and SC2, another thing is that in BW, the battles were spread out more. In SC2, wins and loses (especially in Protoss matchups) still depend more one big single battle than several spread out.
Also about the discussion of fast gameplay vs slow. SC2 and BW are both fast games (SC2 actually being faster thanks to how fast the game can end or be won with a single battle). The main thing to look out for is that in BW, the fast and micro intensive things you can do were much more practical and had a bigger impact on the game. In SC2, a lot of fast things are automatically down already (Phoenix auto firing while moving, though I actually like that on the Phoenix but that's just an example) or Medivacs speed boosting (just press a button).
Things that you need to micro are more mindless in SC2 (stacking Mutalisk and using them is just mindless spam clicking compared to BW where you had to move them certain directions only and you had to make sure you used the right attack, stop, hold position, or patrol command depending on your mutalisk positions and their angle they're facing to keep them from losing momentum and/or attacking the wrong thing). And again, a lot more things that do require micro are defensive in nature (splitting against AoE units) which isn't as exciting/rewarding/satisfying when you're doing it offensively (using mutalisk, vultures, or shuttles with reavers and attacking with them in BW).
I'm not sure if this is still true or not but according to a top 10 in PC Bangs in South Korea, BW apparently still was doing better (#6 if I remembered right) compared to SC2 which was at #11 (only after HotS release).
SC2 doesn't have to be BW with better graphics (I like most of the new units for the most part) but some of the major mechanics like how units without attack animations could be controlled, Reavers, and maybe pathing should be looked at for SC2.
I hope for LotV, they try out much more major changes. HotS was a nice experiment (in terms of how much they can change the game with just new/revamped units and not mechanics changes) and lots of their points were agreeable (and to be fair, they still have potential with more balance changes).
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it feels like sc2 is dying ;;
User was warned for this post
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 05 2013 08:42 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 08:15 theBlues wrote:
If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise. If Blizzard doesn't do something radical like that, I'm leaving Starcraft 2 for another game. Its a promise.
Radical: i propose for Blizzard to remove Protoss. BOOM, game is A. Balanced; B. Fun to watch after some tweaks to ZvZ and mech C. Woops, it is not SC2 now.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On October 21 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 08:42 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 05 2013 08:15 theBlues wrote:
If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise. If Blizzard doesn't do something radical like that, I'm leaving Starcraft 2 for another game. Its a promise. Radical: i propose for Blizzard to remove Protoss. BOOM, game is A. Balanced; B. Fun to watch after some tweaks to ZvZ and mech C. Woops, it is not SC2 now.
I'd like to see hydras get a +2 range upgrade, it'd make them a better counter to marines which is what they should be.
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On October 21 2013 02:53 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 05 2013 08:42 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 05 2013 08:15 theBlues wrote:
If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise. If Blizzard doesn't do something radical like that, I'm leaving Starcraft 2 for another game. Its a promise. Radical: i propose for Blizzard to remove Protoss. BOOM, game is A. Balanced; B. Fun to watch after some tweaks to ZvZ and mech C. Woops, it is not SC2 now. I'd like to see hydras get a +2 range upgrade, it'd make them a better counter to marines which is what they should be.
Why on earth should Hydras be a “counter” to Marines? First, why do people keep thinking in terms of "A counters B"? This is what creates awful interactions and you should know it as a mech supporter. Second, Hydralisks with 7 range would be out of control; +1 range makes such a huge difference for concaves.
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On October 21 2013 02:53 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 05 2013 08:42 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 05 2013 08:15 theBlues wrote:
If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise. If Blizzard doesn't do something radical like that, I'm leaving Starcraft 2 for another game. Its a promise. Radical: i propose for Blizzard to remove Protoss. BOOM, game is A. Balanced; B. Fun to watch after some tweaks to ZvZ and mech C. Woops, it is not SC2 now. I'd like to see hydras get a +2 range upgrade, it'd make them a better counter to marines which is what they should be.
why should hydras counter marine? in bw they also didnt counter marine either. I dont understand why they should. they are also a 1-A unit, would not enjoy blob of 1-A marine vs 1-A hydras.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 21 2013 02:53 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 05 2013 08:42 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 05 2013 08:15 theBlues wrote:
If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise. If Blizzard doesn't do something radical like that, I'm leaving Starcraft 2 for another game. Its a promise. Radical: i propose for Blizzard to remove Protoss. BOOM, game is A. Balanced; B. Fun to watch after some tweaks to ZvZ and mech C. Woops, it is not SC2 now. I'd like to see hydras get a +2 range upgrade, it'd make them a better counter to marines which is what they should be.
Lolwut? Since when Hydras are supposed to be counter to marine?
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On October 21 2013 03:33 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 02:53 Qikz wrote:On October 21 2013 02:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 05 2013 08:42 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 05 2013 08:15 theBlues wrote:
If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise. If Blizzard doesn't do something radical like that, I'm leaving Starcraft 2 for another game. Its a promise. Radical: i propose for Blizzard to remove Protoss. BOOM, game is A. Balanced; B. Fun to watch after some tweaks to ZvZ and mech C. Woops, it is not SC2 now. I'd like to see hydras get a +2 range upgrade, it'd make them a better counter to marines which is what they should be. Lolwut? Since when Hydras are supposed to be counter to marine?
Hydras actually do decent jobs against marines when it's mixed with roaches because hydras have insane DPS. and roaches are just the meat shield
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Please, stop bump this thread -_-
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EPT
