EPTChanges for balance test map live - Page 58
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:13 ETisME wrote: Mech has much more depth than bio mine because it's not a composition that can deal with tech switch easily. It takes immense skill to deal with viper roach hydra and then deal with mass muta tech switch. Just look at mvp mech game how he spread out tanks and how he does his tech switches, when to add ravens and Vikings and what unit he produces is amazing. Bio mine is the one lacking depth because other than getting the build order, the rest is basically mechanics based play Wow. This is an amazing point. Pretty much since the start of SC2 each player for any race has been searching for that combination of units that can counter everything, because that is the simplest way to play. Every Zerg would go Hydra/Roach in all matchups if it was viable. With the Marine, Terran has always been the closest to this. The Widow Mine actually makes it worse versus Zerg, because unlike the Siege Tank, it can hit air units. So you replace some of the Marines with Marauders to replace the damage of Tanks versus Roaches and also to deal with Ultralisks and add in Medivacs and voila! You have a composition that counters pretty much everything Zerg can throw at you. Just add Vikings when you scout Broodlords. This creates a mass of unused Terran units in the matchup, and as you pointed out it means there is very little depth. It also makes the matchup very stale (though not quite as stale as TvP in WOL where Mech and Stargate were unused and the only real variation was whether the Protoss get HT or Colossus first). But in a matchup like PvP, we can see all Protoss units used in a variety of compositions, except perhaps the Carrier. On August 16 2013 16:57 kidcrash wrote: Here is the problem with a game containing too many hard counters: 1. Vipers are really good vs mech. 2. Terran knows this so they don't even bother going mech. 3. Since no one goes mech, no one builds vipers. Its basically a vicious circle which stems from flawed game design. The only way to fix it is to make vipers a little bit less good vs mech while also making them a little better vs bio. Easy fix would be to swap the energy costs; 75 for blinding cloud and 100 for abduct. The problem with the Viper is that it is an all or nothing unit. For instance, either you hit your Abducts on the Colossus and you roll the Protoss, or you don't and you lose. There is very little room for balance, if you make the spells too hard to land or not effective enough, then it won't get used at all. If you make it to easy (as it is now versus Terran) then people simply won't build units that the Viper counters. This is compared to a unit like the Corrupter, which takes time to kill a Colossus. Thus, positioning and micro are important, and you can do slight adjustments to the damage/health/armor/attackspeed of a Corrupter. | ||
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jonich0n
United States1982 Posts
On August 17 2013 05:36 VayneAuthority wrote: keep this overseer speed buff, lower widow mine hp by 10/15. There tvz is solved. Don't fucking ruin zvp with those vipers jesus, its probably the most balanced matchup right now. I kinda like where you're going with that. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 17 2013 07:22 jonich0n wrote: I kinda like where you're going with that. Oddly enough... I agree with this sentiment. It has always bugged me that Widow mines are 90hp, 5 range, and 40 splash dmg vs all without costing the mine to attack while banelings are 30hp, melee range, and 20 vs all (35 only vs light) for a mere 25 minerals less. Who the hell decided that 90 fucking hp was a good idea on a unit as powerful as the widow mine? That number is so high that ridiculous comparisons like 5 Roaches or 6 Stalkers can't kill a Widow Mine before it burrows. Given the way the unit plays, I can see it being a little beefier than banelings, that's fine, but 90 fucking hp? really? That's more hp than a Hydralisk for 25/25 less cost! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 17 2013 13:26 Jermstuddog wrote: Oddly enough... I agree with this sentiment. It has always bugged me that Widow mines are 90hp, 5 range, and 40 splash dmg vs all without costing the mine to attack while banelings are 30hp, melee range, and 20 vs all (35 only vs light) for a mere 25 minerals less. Who the hell decided that 90 fucking hp was a good idea on a unit as powerful as the widow mine? That number is so high that ridiculous comparisons like 5 Roaches or 6 Stalkers can't kill a Widow Mine before it burrows. Given the way the unit plays, I can see it being a little beefier than banelings, that's fine, but 90 fucking hp? really? That's more hp than a Hydralisk for 25/25 less cost! Hard to compare costs directly when the income is different for each races, etc. | ||
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BrassMonkey27
Canada616 Posts
On August 18 2013 12:38 FabledIntegral wrote: Hard to compare costs directly when the income is different for each races, etc. So its cheaper and easier to acquire due to the speed of mules mining. I think its a fair comparison. Not to mention the fact that 3 widow mines pretty much have the same effect as 10 banelings and they can reload within 40s and aren't kite-able within 5 range. Hmm. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 18 2013 12:54 BrassMonkey27 wrote: So its cheaper and easier to acquire due to the speed of mules mining. I think its a fair comparison. Not to mention the fact that 3 widow mines pretty much have the same effect as 10 banelings and they can reload within 40s and aren't kite-able within 5 range. Hmm. You can't make the comparison at all. | ||
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BrassMonkey27
Canada616 Posts
On August 18 2013 12:59 FabledIntegral wrote: You can't make the comparison at all. Why not? Aside from the volatility of the shot itself, I do not see much of a downside to getting widow mines. There are simply not many situations where building them isn't a good choice. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 18 2013 12:54 BrassMonkey27 wrote: So its cheaper and easier to acquire due to the speed of mules mining. I think its a fair comparison. Not to mention the fact that 3 widow mines pretty much have the same effect as 10 banelings and they can reload within 40s and aren't kite-able within 5 range. Hmm. Terrans only have the power of MULEs because Zerg are too much of a miser to get burrow and then plant Baneling mines themselves. As long as no Zerg uses the capability of burrow they havent got the right to blame the MULE for everything. Oh and be a smart Zerg and burrow your Banelings where there is no creep, so they dont get caught in a creep clearing scan. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
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jackslater
Russian Federation604 Posts
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synd
Bulgaria586 Posts
On August 18 2013 14:15 Rabiator wrote: Terrans only have the power of MULEs because Zerg are too much of a miser to get burrow and then plant Baneling mines themselves. As long as no Zerg uses the capability of burrow they havent got the right to blame the MULE for everything. Oh and be a smart Zerg and burrow your Banelings where there is no creep, so they dont get caught in a creep clearing scan. 3CCs provide quite the number of scans. Not to mention that terrans have to scan to clear creep anyway so burrowed banelings will do exactly nothing. They'll be even worse probably. So as long as scan remains .. .scan, terrans can't really judge zergs for not burrowing banelings. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Unlike the current consume its quick and can be done mid battle. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Terran: Marauder > 125m 25g > 125 Health > Range 6 Toss: Stalker > 125m 50g > 160 Health > Range 6 Zerg: Hydralisk > 100m 50g > 80 Health > Range 5 Yea, yea, dps is more, but it's not overwhelming. AFTER we have to spend 150/150 to get Range things look like: Take 1 Stalker vs 1 Hydra and the Hydra will win with 3 health left. Take 1 Marauder vs 1 Hydra and the Hydra will win with 13 health, or by 2 attack. I feel this is very deceiving...... Throw in Colossus or Medivacs and everything drastically changes. At the very least I'd like to see Hydra's START with a Range of 6. But I'm a greedy Zerg and I'd like to see their Health increased to like 95 or 100 too. | ||
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Iberville
Canada207 Posts
On September 05 2013 05:11 11B wrote: Why don't they fix the Hydra? Terran: Marauder > 125m 25g > 125 Health > Range 6 Toss: Stalker > 125m 50g > 160 Health > Range 6 Zerg: Hydralisk > 100m 50g > 80 Health > Range 5 Yea, yea, dps is more, but it's not overwhelming. AFTER we have to spend 150/150 to get Range things look like: Take 1 Stalker vs 1 Hydra and the Hydra will win with 3 health left. Take 1 Marauder vs 1 Hydra and the Hydra will win with 13 health, or by 2 attack. I feel this is very deceiving...... Throw in Colossus or Medivacs and everything drastically changes. At the very least I'd like to see Hydra's START with a Range of 6. But I'm a greedy Zerg and I'd like to see their Health increased to like 95 or 100 too. You realize that Hydras are light units, unlike Stalkers and Marauders...? Hydras nom nom Stalkers. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
In Brood War "Goons" started with range 4 (i believe) and then you needed a range upgrade bringing them to 6. In HoTs Stalker is basically the same unit. So whey then does the Hydra still cost money to upgrade range but Protoss units don't? I don't think asking for the Hydralisk to start at Range 6 is unreasonable.......at the minimum. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3552 Posts
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On September 05 2013 05:54 ejozl wrote: To the Baneling Widow Mine comparison, I want to add that Banes are 0,5 supply making it one of the strongest units for supply cost, where Widow Mines cost 2, which is very weak for a unit you can't be sure to be effective. Banelings are melee range but widow mines are 5. Banelings dont shoot air and the units that banelings are designed to kill (marines) are also range and can run faster while widow mines kill zerglings and banelings. You also cant see widow mines without detection. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Brood war is a different game, a game where hydralisks have a different role and dragoons outrange marines in bunkers when they have range I think you're missing the point ^^. If they want a more balanced game it would only seem fair, at least to me, to have all support units start at Range 6. If not, then make it so Stalkers/Marauders need to research a Range upgrade as well. And Dragoons don't outrange Marines in bunkers if both races get the Range upgrade. So I'm missing the point of your post anyways? | ||
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