EPTChanges for balance test map live - Page 56
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Qikz
United Kingdom12039 Posts
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kyla50125
Italy3 Posts
It was like that since half of WOL and the game started to became boring since then..... From a tactical POV zerg has: PRO - the REAL invisibility, that provide so much ways to snipe advresraries building / armies - ALL UNITS can become invisible... - the most efficience , economic and fast way to drop in every point of the map: tunnel - the faster economy - the faster switch - the strongest AOE (storm , you can evade part of the damage... with fungal YOU CAN'T! ) - the faster army outside the creep - anti-invisibility at anytime in about 10 sec.... BAD - the weakest units if taken "head on" And THIS is the mentality that i thought the zerg was built around.... squishy but with a lot of strategies always avaible, fast and with a lot of tricks... Nowdays you rarely can see zerg using tunnel, bane mines (a little more, but not even enough...), infestors... not to speak that they can barely manage 2 attack fronts (usually the attack or defend in a position and send 10 lings somewhere else).... I'm not a "pro" at this game, but i played a lot (at this and at SC1) and i really think that all started when the zerg was crying (like all mediocre players of every race always do) and blizzard, instead of finding a way to let them learn better the "meaning" behind the race, started to give them stronger units / spells: form this point on all went a mess, because, thx to that, they had to readjust the other races.... Sure, the game from the start was not balanced, but instead of giving zerg more ways, they gave them more strenght "head on"..... like "istant fungal that take ground and air units".... roaches with +1 range... etc.... and this "trend" became worst with HotS, giving zerg siege units (... WHAT???) with about 40y range, toss "air siege units ( no comment), terran "the fastest unit to harras" (medi boost....) and "random dmg" mines..... what had theydone? Where is the "meaning behind the race" in these changes? And also, obviously this method (you whine ---> you pay ----> i'll change things) leaded to a change of mentality by the players... they are not still thinking "the game should be balanced... i have to try harder to find another way to win" like in the early years": now the majority of ppl think "wow i lost, that build is broken / that unit is too strong, i have to wait for a fix from blizzard". So now blizzard has a bigger problem than balance... they first have to give people "the impression" that the game is balanced... and since ppl are different that will never happen, forcing them to change the game the way it seems more balanced based on the last big tourney someone won "too easy". My 2 cents | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 16 2013 17:16 pmp10 wrote: The removal of siege upgrade did buff mech. Before that it was almost impossible to hold a blink all-in with mech openers. Not that TvP mech openers are safe now but every little bit helps. The removal of the upgrade did NOT buff mech, because it just adjusted a timing and did nothing to improve the late game efficiency of mech vs Protoss. All the upgrade removal did was make Terrans able to use Siege Tanks against very aggressive strategies. Thats it ... and that isnt a buff and most certainly not what mech needed ever since the Siege Tank got nerfed back in the WoL beta when matches were still played on a tiny Steppes of War. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:26 Rabiator wrote: The removal of the upgrade did NOT buff mech, because it just adjusted a timing and did nothing to improve the late game efficiency of mech vs Protoss. All the upgrade removal did was make Terrans able to use Siege Tanks against very aggressive strategies. Thats it ... and that isnt a buff and most certainly not what mech needed ever since the Siege Tank got nerfed back in the WoL beta when matches were still played on a tiny Steppes of War. Its an early game buff. You can name it whatever you want, but all changes a race does benefit from are 'buffs'. Be it in allowing an earlier timing (no matter what match up) or a better defence early. 80 seconds and minerals/gas saved. Small buff, but a buff regardless ;D | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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hummingbird23
Norway359 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:28 Musicus wrote: Will we see Speed prisms with Hts flying around now, searching for Vipers popping out of eggs? That would be suicidal. Three seconds too late on the pop and Abduct + hydras will kill the Prism. There's no reason why OL spotting should be crippled that badly to allow something this audacious to occur. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:28 NarutO wrote: Its an early game buff. You can name it whatever you want, but all changes a race does benefit from are 'buffs'. Be it in allowing an earlier timing (no matter what match up) or a better defence early. 80 seconds and minerals/gas saved. Small buff, but a buff regardless ;D A buff changes the efficiency of something and the removal of the buff did not change the unit in any way to make it more efficient. Making a playstyle easier to play isnt the same as making a playstyle more powerful ... On August 16 2013 17:27 Sissors wrote: Ah crap they going to nerf mech even further in LotV? (Maybe I am a bit pessimistic, but they also entered HotS with as idea boosting mech, they didn't exactly succeed...) As long as David Kim has anything to say about game balance mech will be dead and gone. He basically admitted to that when he was interviewed by Apollo. "Bio is just so exciting to watch, mech is kinda stale." - David Kim "Do we even want mech to be as viable as bio?" - David Kim Also according to this interview this fusion of upgrades is "an extreme change we could make" ... | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:39 Rabiator wrote: A buff changes the efficiency of something and the removal of the buff did not change the unit in any way to make it more efficient. Making a playstyle easier to play isnt the same as making a playstyle more powerful ... As long as David Kim has anything to say about game balance mech will be dead and gone. He basically admitted to that when he was interviewed by Apollo. http://youtu.be/a5At94mn3h0?t=5m39s "Bio is just so exciting to watch, mech is kinda stale." - David Kim "Do we even want mech to be as viable as bio?" - David Kim Also according to this interview this fusion of upgrades is "an extreme change we could make" ... Do you really want to go into detail about it? It makes certain strategies more viable entering midgame on better terms because you now can play certain openings you previously couldn't. In addition, in TvT some timings are stronger because you don't need to wait for siege and have additional ressources to spend. It doesn't matter that you disagree, but generally speaking it is a buff, like it or not. Increase/Decrease of build time of bunkers is a nerf/buff as well, even though it doesn't affect the game from early to lategame but essentially parts of the game. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:39 Rabiator wrote: A buff changes the efficiency of something and the removal of the buff did not change the unit in any way to make it more efficient. Making a playstyle easier to play isnt the same as making a playstyle more powerful ... As long as David Kim has anything to say about game balance mech will be dead and gone. He basically admitted to that when he was interviewed by Apollo. http://youtu.be/a5At94mn3h0?t=5m39s "Bio is just so exciting to watch, mech is kinda stale." - David Kim "Do we even want mech to be as viable as bio?" - David Kim Also according to this interview this fusion of upgrades is "an extreme change we could make" ... Unfortunately, he is right, mech is stale, boring and it lacks depth. Its also unfortunate that the only way to actually fix this flaw in mech and make it exciting, tactical and deep, can only be cone by altering some core gameplay features, which, we all know, Blizzard will never do. Personally I'd rather have BW style mech be viable or I'd not have it viable at all if its boring, and SC2 mech risks being as boring as BL/Infestor or SH based play. | ||
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ETisME
12715 Posts
It takes immense skill to deal with viper roach hydra and then deal with mass muta tech switch. Just look at mvp mech game how he spread out tanks and how he does his tech switches, when to add ravens and Vikings and what unit he produces is amazing. Bio mine is the one lacking depth because other than getting the build order, the rest is basically mechanics based play | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
These things aren't gamebreaking or terrible, but they make the whole game feel more clumsy and less intuitive. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
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F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
Firstly, Overseers should attain the same speed/accel as Mutas once Pneumatized Carapace is upgraded. Secondly, I agree with Vipers spawning with full energy. This will save Z some time and APM; shortening the opponent's window of opportunity, and creating the potential for some interesting Z-executed timings. In order for the Viper buff to be more relevant in ZvT, Blinding Cloud should affect Widow Mines. Additionally, I advocate decreases in the costs of Burrow and Pneumatized Carapace; reductions of 25-50/25-50 and 25/25, respectively. Hydras are also in need of a buff. Perhaps remove the Grooved Spines upgrade and have Hydras spawn with the +1 additional range by default. Infestors are also in need of examining. Perhaps increase the speed of the Fungal projectile, and/or have Fungal Growth deal more DPS. On August 16 2013 13:22 Rabiator wrote: Honestly I dont buy the "to make Zerg build X" argument. They are the laziest and stupidest sort of players who dont even get burrow most of the time even when that upgrade could save a lot of their units or make their attacks more powerful. Zergs already have to build the fewest buildings of all three races and that should give them enough resources to get those upgrades or to invest in Vipers. The second argument is even more ridiculous, because drama comes from "close calls" and giving Vipers max energy from the start gives them too much power. In the future, please refrain from making comments on the topic of balance, as you are nauseatingly biased. Also, I find your use of the fictional adjective 'stupidest' quite ironic. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:21 F.O.A.D. wrote: These buffs to Z will hardly address the problem that Z's are currently facing in the ZvT mu. Firstly, Overseers should attain the same speed/accel as Mutas once Pneumatized Carapace is upgraded. Secondly, I agree with Vipers spawning with full energy. This will save Z some time and APM; shortening the opponent's window of opportunity, and creating the potential for some interesting Z-executed timings. In order for the Viper buff to be more relevant in ZvT, Blinding Cloud should affect Widow Mines. Additionally, I advocate decreases in the costs of Burrow and Pneumatized Carapace; reductions of 25-50/25-50 and 25/25, respectively. Hydras are also in need of a buff. Perhaps remove the Grooved Spines upgrade and have Hydras spawn with the +1 additional range by default. Infestors are also in need of examining. Perhaps increase the speed of the Fungal projectile, and/or have Fungal Growth deal more DPS. In the future, please refrain from making comments on the topic of balance, as you are nauseatingly biased. Also, I find your use of the fictional adjective 'stupidest' quite ironic. It isn't so much that he is biased as he wants the game to be completely different(which I personally wouldn't hate, but isn't going to happen). I found your post still quite funny, reading your whole post and then ending it by saying someone else is biased. | ||
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kyla50125
Italy3 Posts
On August 16 2013 18:44 NarutO wrote: Do you really want to go into detail about it? It makes certain strategies more viable entering midgame on better terms because you now can play certain openings you previously couldn't. In addition, in TvT some timings are stronger because you don't need to wait for siege and have additional ressources to spend. It doesn't matter that you disagree, but generally speaking it is a buff, like it or not. Increase/Decrease of build time of bunkers is a nerf/buff as well, even though it doesn't affect the game from early to lategame but essentially parts of the game. ???? You should see the "history" of this "so called" buff.... obviously if you decontextualized this adjustment it can be seen as a buff: less money / gas / time to have something,, but in reality it's an adjustment. There aren't new strategies coming from this, even in early stages, because if you rush tanks, in the time the second comes out you would had the upgrade done (the time needed for 2 tanks was the minimum to attack with enough rines / tanks to siege someone).... and obviously it wasn't made to make the game "easier", at least if to click an icon is not of some difficult for someone... Simply this was an adjustment because they delayed too much (thx to toss / zerg crying) the bunker, because they nerfed not only the bunker itself but also the depot and the barrack's time... so to not let the terran rush too fast with the bunker, they made the terran too weak to early attacks, an to "adjust" this thing they thought of a change that balanced a little those nerf. Try to see the situation like this, let's say that they don't want ppl to cheese anymore with the "2 gate proxy" rush: - they wiil nerf a lot the time for the pylon (that u will suffer for ALL the game) - they will nerf a lot the time for the gate (that u will suffer for ALL the game) - 'cause of that you want be able to stand an early push of MMM since you won't have colossus with thermal lance in time... - So, they will remove the termal lance upgrade.. you will have 2 colossus and termal in about the same time as before, but the first colossus will be out a little late but directly with the upgraded lance.. let's say about 30 sec before the normal timing, 100 / 100 not to be spent. Obviously nothing will change in your strategies, since in 30 sec you would have reached the other base and you wuold had the termal lance ready in any case.... Would you consider the "thermal lance removal" a buff? Or an "adjustment" thx to the overall nerfs to your structures? | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On August 13 2013 04:33 TheDwf wrote: "Mech is weak" → Vipers start with full energy. Alright, it makes sense. Pretty sure the mech buffs are because Blizzard want mech to be better vs P and vikings to be better when switched to in that match up ^_^ | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8744 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:26 Zarahtra wrote: It isn't so much that he is biased as he wants the game to be completely different(which I personally wouldn't hate, but isn't going to happen). I found your post still quite funny, reading your whole post and then ending it by saying someone else is biased. Second this ^_^ | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
TvZ: Biomech still less viable than biomine, and later on the game, why switch mech if you can switch mass Ravens at the same prices of upgrades? Mech now, you still need 20 tanks to be agressive midgame, but can't do anything in case of mutas. So you build mostly HB/Thors and have a faster rush into skyterran. Same as it is already now, instead of taking 1h, "mech" games (with BIG underquotes) will take 45 minutes games. Bioplay (or 4m, it's the same) No change. TvP: Mech: idem TvZ. Unless that you also need ghosts. Biomech. Lol... hum. Do i need to explain? Bioplay. When you have money to search double up armory and add HB. You just better make mass ghosts 3/3. Since HB nerf (a needed one imo) The timing to add HB in your MMM is just so retarded, you need at least 2 factorys + upgrade. That is 2 or 3 more ghosts, nobody takes the choice of Hellbats. Later in the game, mass Ghosts and Vikings is still a better choice than HB. Nothing change there. TvT: Bio versus mech. The mecher now have the advantage of skyswitch. Going bio or biomech VS mech will turn into an all-in. Biotank vs biotank. Okay, we have the fear of an opponnent choosing mech (and therefore sky) so who will go biotank ? Mech vs Mech. ThorsHB deals pretty well with tanklines. My fear? ThorHB into skyterran versus ThorHB into Sky. The only one matchup where mech was still fun to play or interesting to play against will turn like the 2 other ones. | ||
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
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