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On August 15 2013 23:50 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 23:45 pmp10 wrote:On August 15 2013 23:31 convention wrote:
"I can't use tempest, because terran just gets ravens to PDD my shots. I can't use stalkers to deplete the PDD becuase they just get killed by the tanks. And I can't get HT to feedback the ravens because their ghosts will just snipe my HT. That is why mech is so hard to deal with." This reasoning doesn't work because you as protoss have the range advantage thanks to tempest. Ghosts cannot counter your templar unless terran decides to push forward and that puts the engagement in your favor. But it´s not like you can never attack if you don´t have the range advantage. Zergs could never attack in that case, and tempest don´t really do much damage against ground so it´s not like you will lose all of your units if they get the first shot.
Of course you can attack but the problem is that vikings fall very easily to multiple storms.
That's why skyterran cannot take fights on protoss terms.
It's not possible to rebuild your air units as fast as zerg does.
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On August 15 2013 23:16 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 21:56 InfCereal wrote:On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 12:53 SuperYo1000 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:44 MockHamill wrote:
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Tempest make mech obsolete
Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. ......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already. That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers. You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage.
And I thought terran have ghost
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On August 15 2013 22:22 massivez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 21:50 Cheerio wrote:
vipers are still bad vs bio. I wish they made blinding cloud work on mines.
This seems reasonable and could make it more interesting, but would this make lategame zerg too strong?
probably not if blizzard don't make stupid viper energy buff.
The thing is that mines will still activate (1 range though) and blinding clouds can't stop whole minefield.
and viper is undoubtedly expensive and can't attack by themselves. making more viper means less main army to attack 
So I prefer that change intead of non-game-sense viper energy boost.
+ Show Spoiler +That's why I suggested WM change that it will now deals normal, non-spell dmg (the only problem was vs immortal)
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On August 16 2013 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 23:16 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 21:56 InfCereal wrote:On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 12:53 SuperYo1000 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:44 MockHamill wrote:
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Tempest make mech obsolete
Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. ......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already. That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers. You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage. And I thought terran have ghost
It's the end problem.
Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ?
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terrible changes besides the overseer speed buff, that actually makes sense.
The other two changes, just wow. Waste of money whoever is paying this balance team
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10639927
Call to Action: August 15 Balance Testing![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/45eB6ZY.jpg) We’ve just published a new Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list entitled " Bel’Shir Vestige LE (2.0.10 Balance v1.0)." This time, we’re testing balance changes for Armory upgrades, the Overseer, and the Viper in Heart of the Swarm. Our plan is to first consider the changes below, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Here’s the situation: Terran Armory Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade. Zerg Overseer The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.) Viper Starting energy increased to 200. If you’re interested in the reasoning behind these changes, you can check out this forum thread written by David Kim and the StarCraft II Balance Team. Feedback based on play testing is the most helpful information you can share with us, and we kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above. As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out the changes listed above to see how they affect current gameplay and none of these changes are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
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On August 16 2013 11:18 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10639927Show nested quote +Call to Action: August 15 Balance Testing We’ve just published a new Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list entitled " Bel’Shir Vestige LE (2.0.10 Balance v1.0)." This time, we’re testing balance changes for Armory upgrades, the Overseer, and the Viper in Heart of the Swarm. Our plan is to first consider the changes below, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Here’s the situation: Terran Armory Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade. Zerg Overseer The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.) Viper Starting energy increased to 200.If you’re interested in the reasoning behind these changes, you can check out this forum thread written by David Kim and the StarCraft II Balance Team. Feedback based on play testing is the most helpful information you can share with us, and we kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above. As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out the changes listed above to see how they affect current gameplay and none of these changes are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
Seriously, Davie? oh well, better test them out guys :D
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holy smokes, that's quite a speed upgrade to the overseer o.o
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David Kim and balance designers are goddamn stupid for attempting to buff mech then simultaneously buffing the direct counter to just about every mech unit from Zerg.
I have absolutely no faith in Blizzard's team to make the right decision, and it will always be a surprise when they do something right.
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Personally I detest the combining of the terran weapon upgrades just as much as I have the removal of the siege upgrade because it is a loss in "style". Giving players a lot of choices always gives them the opportunity to make mistakes and that is a good thing. Being "forced" to reduce the choices for players is a complete confession of failure.
Restricting the power of players is a good thing, because they have to become creative and because of this the change to the Viper is bad. The Viper already has the power to drain health from buildings to actively increase their energy, so what is the point of the change? The only answer is an adjustment of timings and that is another confession of failure, because timings are dependant upon the map. Full starting energy makes it far too easy to use the Viper and it isnt as obvious as the "Khaydarin Amulet problem" because they have a build time of more than just 5 sec warp in.
The Overseer change is the only "neither good nor bad" one, but it is an increase in speed and "too much speed" is a bad thing for a strategy game (which SC2 *should be* but isnt anymore).
On August 16 2013 11:29 BlueLanterna wrote:
David Kim and balance designers are goddamn stupid for attempting to buff mech then simultaneously buffing the direct counter to just about every mech unit from Zerg.
I have absolutely no faith in Blizzard's team to make the right decision, and it will always be a surprise when they do something right.
The upgrade change is NOT A BUFF for mech. People dont really get the air upgrades (except when faced with Colossi or the much rarer Broodlords) and air units are basically useless anyways (due to their crappy design).
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On August 16 2013 09:56 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On August 15 2013 23:16 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 21:56 InfCereal wrote:On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 12:53 SuperYo1000 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:44 MockHamill wrote:
[
Tempest make mech obsolete
Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. ......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already. That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers. You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage. And I thought terran have ghost It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ?
In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway.
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On August 16 2013 11:40 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 09:56 Noocta wrote:On August 16 2013 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On August 15 2013 23:16 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 21:56 InfCereal wrote:On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 12:53 SuperYo1000 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:44 MockHamill wrote:
[
Tempest make mech obsolete
Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. ......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already. That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers. You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage. And I thought terran have ghost It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ? In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway.
If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient.
Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ...
That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ...
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On August 16 2013 11:32 Rabiator wrote:Personally I detest the combining of the terran weapon upgrades just as much as I have the removal of the siege upgrade because it is a loss in "style". Giving players a lot of choices always gives them the opportunity to make mistakes and that is a good thing. Being "forced" to reduce the choices for players is a complete confession of failure. Restricting the power of players is a good thing, because they have to become creative and because of this the change to the Viper is bad. The Viper already has the power to drain health from buildings to actively increase their energy, so what is the point of the change? The only answer is an adjustment of timings and that is another confession of failure, because timings are dependant upon the map. Full starting energy makes it far too easy to use the Viper and it isnt as obvious as the "Khaydarin Amulet problem" because they have a build time of more than just 5 sec warp in. The Overseer change is the only "neither good nor bad" one, but it is an increase in speed and "too much speed" is a bad thing for a strategy game (which SC2 *should be* but isnt anymore). Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 11:29 BlueLanterna wrote:
David Kim and balance designers are goddamn stupid for attempting to buff mech then simultaneously buffing the direct counter to just about every mech unit from Zerg.
I have absolutely no faith in Blizzard's team to make the right decision, and it will always be a surprise when they do something right. The upgrade change is NOT A BUFF for mech. People dont really get the air upgrades (except when faced with Colossi or the much rarer Broodlords) and air units are basically useless anyways (due to their crappy design).
I think speed buff of the upgrade should be ok because Overseer's Acceleration is 2.125, which is slightly higher than oracle..
But viper buff... oh man... what have they done to my game
viper buff is bad because
1. viper will be too powerful. vs mech
2. against game logic (all spell caster starts off with 50 or 75 (after upgrade) energy.
3. doesn't help viper vs bio terran much
4. will get sniped by HT even more easily.
My thought :D
Edited
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the main idea of terran mech is an army surround tank so what this buff has to do w/ anything like that, at the moment nobody go mech because tank cannot take the centre role due to P has so many option to approach the tank army like blink stalker, chargelot while in BW its only upgraded zealot is the option and Z w/ swarm host as an answer. But then to be fair, in BW except for TvZ every other match-up noone go bio and nobody complaint abt that (in TvZ depending on map T can go mech as well), so it kinda similar to the situation atm w/ HoTS just bio and mech change the role, so we have bio in every match up and mech can be used in TvT. So in conclusion, the problem for T to rely on the more viable option has been like forever, Blizzard even stop care about that in BW why need to bring that up now, imo, they should really focus on balancing the game.
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That was one hell of an explanation David Kim gave for the viper buff. I'm feeling him on that strategy that we don't see very often and stuff. You know that strat.. vipers all flying around and stuff. That strat brah, looking to see more of it and stuff. Check this out, you feeling me? Going to try to make that insta colossi pull into death even stronger on its first use. This time, instead of killing 1 colossus, they going to insta kill 1 colosssus. Tell me if you feeling me? I just thought it be cool to increase the energy on it. Been analyzing why it would be so cool for months.
We even had casters testing it out and shit. Nothing more relevant than that, baby. You dig me? Lead designer/balance tester knows what's up. Just waiting for him to tell me what the fuck he is talking about.
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On August 16 2013 11:51 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 11:40 convention wrote:On August 16 2013 09:56 Noocta wrote:On August 16 2013 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On August 15 2013 23:16 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 21:56 InfCereal wrote:On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote:On August 15 2013 12:53 SuperYo1000 wrote:On August 15 2013 02:44 MockHamill wrote:
[
Tempest make mech obsolete
Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. ......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already. That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers. You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage. And I thought terran have ghost It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ? In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway. If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient. Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ... That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ...
Protoss is getting air upgrades on those tempest, otherwise they do about 0 damage per shot. And you should not be getting weapon upgrades on those ghosts, just armor. You aren't right clicking the HT to kill them, you are sniping. Anyway, the original point of this is that one shouldn't dismiss mech because of tempest (there are plenty of reasons mech sucks vs protoss, tempest is not one of them).
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Blizzard's recent strategy to balance feels like is to NOT change the 'permanent stats' of units such as HP, damage, armor, range, radius, and duration, but the 'timing stats' of units. The timing stats includes cost, cost of upgrades, combination of upgrades, hellbat's blue flame, banshee's clock cost, and now the viper's energy. This means that the units can still be the same after the patch, but they will be the same only in a different timing in the game.
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they should buff carriers... just saying...
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people realize this viper change will not matter in zvt right... only matchup it has an impact on will be zvp. Not really what needs to be addressed but w/e
the overseer buff was very needed.
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On August 16 2013 12:05 Msr wrote:
people realize this viper change will not matter in zvt right... only matchup it has an impact on will be zvp. Not really what needs to be addressed but w/e
the overseer buff was very needed.
yes, the viper change will potentially ruin zvp.
Colossus won't be an option anymore with vipers being that strong, so you are pretty much tunneled into storm and zerg can just prepare for that, knowing they wont have to invest in vipers/mutas to deal with colossus.
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EPT
