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On August 14 2013 20:47 monkybone wrote:
the marine tank of tvt is the epitomy of beautiful starcraft, anything done to kill or even change this would be a catastrophe and a crime.
bio vs mech is already way superior in TvT alone. Not to mention how much more beatiful even mediocre TvZ series like Mvp vs Life have been. Not to mention jjakji vs Leenock, Ryung vs DRG, MMA vs DRG...
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Although you could see the overseer speed buff as yet another speed buff, shame on you Blizzard! I honestly think it might be a necessary change simply to let the unit keep up with mutalisks. So it is more like, mutalisks were made faster but sometimes can't use their speed because other units are still slow, so in order to make the mutalisk change effective the overseer has to be speedier too. In that scenario it is not like the overseer change puts us even further on the slippery slope to a game that is too fast, it just raises the overseer to the new standard of speed which hasn't changed. If you disagree with the overseer buff then maybe the earlier mutalisk buff is a better target for something to oppose.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
On August 14 2013 20:47 monkybone wrote:
the marine tank of tvt is the epitomy of beautiful starcraft, anything done to kill or even change this would be a catastrophe and a crime.
The problem I have with Marine Tank is it's just mech but with marines instead of hellions. The reason why I have a problem with this is as marines shoot up in large numbers it removes the ability to do cool air play like dropping on tank lines or using banshees to slowly pick away tanks and inevitably makes the sky terran transition worse as people can just keep producing marines.
The best TvT there's actually ever been in SC2 is Fantasy vs Flash on Akilon Wastes where they both went mech.
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On August 14 2013 21:10 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 20:57 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 20:47 monkybone wrote:
the marine tank of tvt is the epitomy of beautiful starcraft, anything done to kill or even change this would be a catastrophe and a crime. bio vs mech is already way superior in TvT alone. Not to mention how much more beatiful even mediocre TvZ series like Mvp vs Life have been. Not to mention jjakji vs Leenock, Ryung vs DRG, MMA vs DRG... no, I disagree. mech vs bio and mech vs mech quickly became boring during the resurgence of it after hots release. it's simply not as engaging as marine tank vs marine tank, mostly due to the hellbat. Bio mine in tvz is also much more interesting than mech ever was in wol. i wouldn't mind seeing a comeback of mech play in tvz though, although I doubt it can be done with the current zerg arsenal
Well, it's opinions. I think Mech vs bio is strategically deeper and makes for more macro games, as the mech player can't attack early, while the bio player can't attack head on and has to find ways to spread the mech player thin while building up an economy advantage.
I have personally never been a huge fan of Marine/Tank TvT, because they always get decided by siege mistakes and upgrade timings (those 0-0/1-1/2-2 vs 1-1/2-2/3-3 marine battles...). And for every good macro Marine/Tank game, you get 2games in which one player wins with a 2base timing before sufficient tank numbers are up to mitigate the power of having more marines.
Edit: I guess my main problem with it is that like every mirror composition battle it just often comes down more to numbers and mistakes. Which can still make for awesome games, but leaves me with a "I wish there was a next step"-feeling.
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The problem I have with Marine Tank is it's just mech but with marines instead of hellions. The reason why I have a problem with this is as marines shoot up in large numbers it removes the ability to do cool air play like dropping on tank lines or using banshees to slowly pick away tanks and inevitably makes the sky terran transition worse as people can just keep producing marines.
The best TvT there's actually ever been in SC2 is Fantasy vs Flash on Akilon Wastes where they both went mech.
I strongly disagree with that. Since in marie-tank vs marine-tank you see a lots of airplay, you also see mech transitions as well as skytransition. You see drops and runbys, on expansions and on tanklines. You also see some micromanagement of marines hard to pull off, but make you able to win fights with even upgrades, but less tanks AND less marines. You can see nukes, banshees, ravens, but as support unit and not automatically as skytransitions.
Mech vs mech can be cool, mech vs bio was cool in WoL, but became far worse in HoTS with the strenght of HB. Leading to an inevitable skytransition, who will come in favor of the mecher if this patch comes out. (It does not favor the bioplayer right now, as it does in WoL).
Don't get me wrong, I love meching, i loved it in BW, pulled it sometimes in TvT in WoL, and a lot in TvZ. But right now, mech is uninteresting to play or play against TvT (imo) as well as TvZ/TvP. Making TvT an only mech MU would make me sad as hell. But I would loved any resurgence of biomech or mech in others MU, and that could come ONLY with a buff of tanks and mech anti-air. The upgrade thing is a really bad idea, it will only lead to skyterran.
If you buff tanks it'll lead to mech vs mech TvT, but give far more options in TvX. Bringing back lockdown or give a real advantage to skytransition to the bioplayer will still allow Terrans to go bio or biomech TvT. The changes proposed there just looked like aprïl fool.
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On August 14 2013 22:02 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 21:20 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 21:10 monkybone wrote:On August 14 2013 20:57 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 20:47 monkybone wrote:
the marine tank of tvt is the epitomy of beautiful starcraft, anything done to kill or even change this would be a catastrophe and a crime. bio vs mech is already way superior in TvT alone. Not to mention how much more beatiful even mediocre TvZ series like Mvp vs Life have been. Not to mention jjakji vs Leenock, Ryung vs DRG, MMA vs DRG... no, I disagree. mech vs bio and mech vs mech quickly became boring during the resurgence of it after hots release. it's simply not as engaging as marine tank vs marine tank, mostly due to the hellbat. Bio mine in tvz is also much more interesting than mech ever was in wol. i wouldn't mind seeing a comeback of mech play in tvz though, although I doubt it can be done with the current zerg arsenal Well, it's opinions. I think Mech vs bio is strategically deeper and makes for more macro games, as the mech player can't attack early, while the bio player can't attack head on and has to find ways to spread the mech player thin while building up an economy advantage. I have personally never been a huge fan of Marine/Tank TvT, because they always get decided by siege mistakes and upgrade timings (those 0-0/1-1/2-2 vs 1-1/2-2/3-3 marine battles...). And for every good macro Marine/Tank game, you get 2games in which one player wins with a 2base timing before sufficient tank numbers are up to mitigate the power of having more marines. Edit: I guess my main problem with it is that like every mirror composition battle it just often comes down more to numbers and mistakes. Which can still make for awesome games, but leaves me with a "I wish there was a next step"-feeling. As a counterexample to your objections you should watch taeja vs polt. That's a series where it definitely did not come down to numbers, but rather raw mechanical and tactical skill from both players. There was not a single deciding moment where one player lost the game, despite being very far behind. Especially in the akilon game, polt clawed his way back from a significant deficit due to his awesome marine tank skill. For marine tank, watch polt, he is the marine tank master, always was.
Well no, such series are exactly what I mean. g1 and g2 (Polt didn't fall much behind. Tanknumbers are probably stronger than marinenumbers, but they were equal in supply; and I think Polt just didn't use his marine advantage properly, there were many scenes in that game in which he could have dropped his marines onto unsupported tanks after he traded tanks for marines in those combats) were nice macro games. g3 and g4 were plain two base mass marine(/tank)/medivac timings that the other player couldn't defend because the tank numbers are still so low that it comes down to marinenumbers. g5 was as far as I remember again just Polt having a marinelead, walking over the map, skirmishing a little and then running in with superior marine numbers against an opponent who had only 2-3tanks in that position.
And please don't defend transitioning being extremely rare with BL/Infestor examples. Transitions aren't meant to "just win" the game when you do them. They are meant to have a risk/reward factor, which initially makes you vulnurable against an opponent who does not transition, and then stronger against him when he does not adjust something himself.
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On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20.
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On August 14 2013 22:36 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20.
Can I have whatever he's smoking?
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On August 14 2013 22:36 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20.
not even one zerg at top 10 though :S
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On August 14 2013 22:40 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20. not even one zerg at top 10 though :S
It makes no sense to look at "global" as the points aren't comparable. And if you look at KR, the 5th player is a Z. Whatever that's supposed to show. The first Terran is 14th, btw. It looks kinda' heave on the P, but I honestly have no idea how to draw any conclusions from this data.
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I can't even imagine how ignorant a change it would be to give vipers full energy at start. No other unit starts with full energy, it has energy for a @#$# reason! The whole ability of the viper to get energy off of buildings would become completely stupid...and not to mention it would make ZvP so much easier and mech in TvZ even worse ( if that is even possible at this point hah). I mean...a collosus based army would basically just die as long as zerg can make some vipers as reinforcements when they scout it moving across the map. zerg already barely needs to prepare for an army composition as is, particularly in ZvP. Now they can just make a few vipers and instantly be ok against a timing? Same thing would happen against a mech timing too. That said, the overseer speed buff would not be that bad. The terran upgrades wouldnt really help anything in TvP bc mech is still terrible, sky terran is still terrible and would probably hurt TvT and makes things more simplistic. The entire list of ideas is basically just dumbing down the game further..really don't like the path we are going down.
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On August 14 2013 22:46 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:40 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2013 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20. not even one zerg at top 10 though :S It makes no sense to look at "global" as the points aren't comparable. And if you look at KR, the 5th player is a Z. Whatever that's supposed to show. The first Terran is 14th, btw. It looks kinda' heave on the P, but I honestly have no idea how to draw any conclusions from this data.
Fully agree, but since you have some of the strong players distributed over the world, it's also hard to say "only Korea counts and nothing else". I just wanted to point out, that he even failed hard by drawing in a totally unreliable source of data.
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On August 14 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 18:38 11B wrote:Buff the tank by giving it better armor upgrades essentially making it a bit harder to kill. In theory this would make it so a Protoss unit would take an additional attack. Randomly I'll say 4 shots to kill instead of 3. Seems fair. I don't think that would upset overall race balance too much. Zerg still have SH/Viper. Once again, don't give the Viper full energy. That's pretty bad  . Personally, I wouldn't mind the idea of needing a building before you can start making Vipers, but at Lair tech. Make it just like the Infestation pit in terms of build time, research cost, and upgrade costs. I feel getting to Hive tech, taking the time to build the Vipers, and then consume buildings for energy takes quite a bit of time. And for that Overseer.........How about speed + sight increase? I like 13 sight. This would give the zerg player a few more valuable seconds to actually STOP and not run all their units/overseers into imba mines  . That would pretty much change nothing I think. It's it's damage that's the problem, not even the armor. It can't even properly defend against swarmhost locusts which are clumped without having an obscene amount of them.
Besides, keeping the tank relatively easy to kill is what makes positioning so important and mech interesting to watch (and play).
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On August 14 2013 22:40 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20. not even one zerg at top 10 though :S
That kind of ladder data is overrated, especially since we have no idea who these players are. 3 of those terrans could be 3 different smurfs that belong to innovation for all we know. that stuff really should be used to talk about balance. talk about precise games with precise analysis to back up a precise point.
saying "oh look at top 20 clearly it's balanced" is just borderline silly
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On August 14 2013 19:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
- overseer buff: awesome
- combined upgrades: awesome, now force bio players to transition at some point (they have gas left over to start +1 +1 armory ups anyway after 12-14 min mark). It won't force anything, and the fact you have extra gas after 15 minuts doesn't mean you have spare minerals to search upgrades (+1-2-3 attack mech) which might be useful a few minuts later. Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 18:15 v_lm wrote:- combined upgrades: awesome, now force bio players to transition at some point (they have gas left over to start +1 +1 armory ups anyway after 12-14 min mark). Force ? It is already super efficient without 1/1 armory why would they change ? Combined upgrades is a terrible idea, 2/2 MMM push with +1 plating would not only benefit to the mines (And I feel like its already powerful enough) but would make the medivacs way more tenacious... Medivacs need 17 muta hits to be killed, +1 Medivacs need 19... We're talking about a unit that has an escape spell... Wake up then, the armor upgrade is already merged, and searching it to make Mines/Medivacs more resilient is already standard in 4M macro games.
no what i meant with force is: give Z options (better BC or fungal or whatever) so that T cant stay on MMMM all game long now that the transition to raven/BC or mech is easier out of MMMM. if needed obv. with more buffs to lategame T (i think lategame T is more than fine, just the transition from MMMM was hard and still is (but easier now)). so basically give Z better options to deal with late midgame/early lategame and later T while giving T even more options to transition out of MMMM faster.
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On August 14 2013 23:02 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 22:40 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2013 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20. not even one zerg at top 10 though :S That kind of ladder data is overrated, especially since we have no idea who these players are. 3 of those terrans could be 3 different smurfs that belong to innovation for all we know. that stuff really should be used to talk about balance. talk about precise games with precise analysis to back up a precise point. saying "oh look at top 20 clearly it's balanced" is just borderline silly
I know, I only said that because he was using that site to explained there is a nice balance in ladder after taking a and call it balanced when the top 10 didn't contain any zerg lol
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On August 14 2013 23:11 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 23:02 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 22:40 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2013 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On August 14 2013 17:01 JokerAi wrote:
realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
I dunno what weed you were smoking, but when I check: http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/ then I see 5 zerg and 5 terrans in 5 the top 20. not even one zerg at top 10 though :S That kind of ladder data is overrated, especially since we have no idea who these players are. 3 of those terrans could be 3 different smurfs that belong to innovation for all we know. that stuff really should be used to talk about balance. talk about precise games with precise analysis to back up a precise point. saying "oh look at top 20 clearly it's balanced" is just borderline silly I know, I only said that because he was using that site to explained there is a nice balance in ladder after taking a and call it balanced when the top 10 didn't contain any zerg lol
you should work on your skills in math my friend
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On August 14 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 18:38 11B wrote:Buff the tank by giving it better armor upgrades essentially making it a bit harder to kill. In theory this would make it so a Protoss unit would take an additional attack. Randomly I'll say 4 shots to kill instead of 3. Seems fair. I don't think that would upset overall race balance too much. Zerg still have SH/Viper. Once again, don't give the Viper full energy. That's pretty bad . Personally, I wouldn't mind the idea of needing a building before you can start making Vipers, but at Lair tech. Make it just like the Infestation pit in terms of build time, research cost, and upgrade costs. I feel getting to Hive tech, taking the time to build the Vipers, and then consume buildings for energy takes quite a bit of time. And for that Overseer.........How about speed + sight increase? I like 13 sight. This would give the zerg player a few more valuable seconds to actually STOP and not run all their units/overseers into imba mines . That would pretty much change nothing I think. It's it's damage that's the problem, not even the armor. It can't even properly defend against swarmhost locusts which are clumped without having an obscene amount of them.
Damage been a problem ever since 1.1.0 yeah...would be nice to see a damage increase again.
I've said it before though and I'll say it again: I seriously believe Terran's problem is the Marine. For the past three years Blizzard has spent their time trying to balance everything in the Terran arsenal around the Marine rather than doing anything to the Marine itself.
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EPT
