EPTChanges for balance test map live - Page 53
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On August 14 2013 21:04 Qikz wrote: The problem I have with Marine Tank is it's just mech but with marines instead of hellions. The reason why I have a problem with this is as marines shoot up in large numbers it removes the ability to do cool air play like dropping on tank lines or using banshees to slowly pick away tanks and inevitably makes the sky terran transition worse as people can just keep producing marines. The best TvT there's actually ever been in SC2 is Fantasy vs Flash on Akilon Wastes where they both went mech. Personally the best TvT I've seen was Flash vs Ryung on Whirlwind in the up and downs for S4 GSL 2012, best marine tank vs marine tank ever. And yes while marine tank might prohibit a couple of cool moves like tank bombing or air play, it adds others. Maneuvering, splitting and flanking become more important, marines are awesome in that, they can do enough damage to break tank lines, but if you don't split and flank properly they will get destroyed by a huge wall of fire, tanks are awesome in that they can hold ground reasonably well, but can still be broken if you get a good engagement. The composition is also mobile enough that it always leads to dynamic match ups, with action across the board. You don't quite get that with bio vs mech, or mech vs Z and P, its more often then not mech just turtling and edging slowly forward with the opposition doing everything in its power to harass and delay the army. Mech vs mech is kind of awesome on certain maps because it can allow the same kind of maneuvers and positioning and dynamic action that made BW mech great, but at the same time on certain maps it can lead to boring stalemate turtle games. Marine tank is just more dynamic, faster paced, but just as bit as tactical and deep as mech, maybe even more so. I agree, killing marine tank would be a crime, and making mech, the way it currently is, viable would be an even bigger crime. I play terran, and I'll go out on a limb and say that, buffing mech to the point of it being viable would be the worst thing that could happen for SC2 ever since the BL, Infestor era. Mech is too easy to control and to play for the amount of potential damage it can do. People have this delirious concept that if mech was suddenly made viable SC2 would be more awesome, we'd have more variety and we'd get a deeper game, far from the truth, mech would either fall into the spectrum where its good but too easy to counter (like it is now), or it is so good to the point where no other styles are going to work, which is just bad not only from a variety point of view but also from a gameplay point of view because mech is fucking boring most of the time. People also have this nostalgic view regarding mech where the automatically assume BW mech = SC2 mech. That also couldn't be farther from the truth, BW mech was way, way harder to play, basic movements of army around the map where hard due to the pathfinding and limited control groups. Making tank lines was much more deep and meaningful because you had to factor in overkill and lack of smart fire while also maximizing damage done. Positioning was important to not get spider mine dragged, tank bombed and a whole other swell of things that could happen. And even if you setup a perfect tank position you still needed to defend it from both ground attacks and air attacks, which, depending on terrain, was anything but easy. That same kind of depth of playing mech is totally absent from SC2, and until they do some kind of huge revamp to the core gameplay to make mech viable, deep and fun then I'd rather it stay exactly the way it is now. | ||
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tns
1054 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Vipers are already very overpowered versus mech and rather crappy vs bio. Please make a change that make them better vs bio but worse vs mech the suggested "Blinding Cloud radius to 3.0 Blinding Cloud range reduction to -5 (from -20)" is a good start. Tempest make mech obsolete Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. | ||
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Dreamsmasher2
Canada38 Posts
On August 14 2013 04:49 Mutineer wrote: My Opinion - I do not care. After playing SC a few years I come to comnclusion I wasted my time On game I will never have real fun with. Why? Because as a terrran my s and A finger hurts. Because mechanic take soo mach time in that game I never come to interesting part. Strategy? what strategy? execise your S and A finger with some other addded some times and 1 2 3 4 5 fingers and you are good. What I really want to seee from paches and expancions is a easy way to reduce mechanical part of SC. Examples: for terran - make quied units used no resources untill they actually in production. Add options to fast priority of use of resources, like prioritice more ot less expencive. prioritice gas units first ..et. Same apply to protos. Make building units have option to autocast - so I can say this barack produce marines as long as there resources avalible. Make me instantly possible to se how many scv's I have so I did not over/under produse them. That apply to protos too. For zers, make injects autocats. Make creep autocast. change creep to not have infinite range ( Quinn allways have to walk to point where creep have to be.) Make production on hatcheries have the same options to autocats/prioritise. In short add tools for non pros to reduce time they spend on mechanics and give them more time to do fun stuff, like micro, positioning, etc. Pros can stil use there a and s fingers. Make scv production autocast. sound to me like you are just terrible at this game | ||
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TimKim0713
Korea (South)221 Posts
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On August 15 2013 02:44 MockHamill wrote: [ Tempest make mech obsolete Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. ......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 15 2013 12:53 SuperYo1000 wrote: ......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote: That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already. That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
On August 15 2013 21:56 InfCereal wrote: That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. It's been tried before and if it wouldn't be for templar it could actually work. But the moment you add feedback and storm into equation there is no terran composition to beat it without marines. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
The 2nd change is nice, though I'm not completely sure what this is supposed to change. I mean mech is pretty weak(well more like gimmicky) in TvZ and TvP, so I take all buffs very gladly, but I don't really think this fixes any problems mech really has. I don't know, people often complain about tempests in TvP,so for those people I suppose this will help. Else it's probably mostly just a small buff to banshees later in the game(both TvP and TvZ). | ||
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massivez
Belgium653 Posts
On August 15 2013 21:50 Cheerio wrote: vipers are still bad vs bio. I wish they made blinding cloud work on mines. This seems reasonable and could make it more interesting, but would this make lategame zerg too strong? | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 15 2013 21:56 InfCereal wrote: That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy. PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option. PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers. You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On August 14 2013 04:49 Mutineer wrote: My Opinion - I do not care. After playing SC a few years I come to comnclusion I wasted my time On game I will never have real fun with. Why? Because as a terrran my s and A finger hurts. Because mechanic take soo mach time in that game I never come to interesting part. Strategy? what strategy? execise your S and A finger with some other addded some times and 1 2 3 4 5 fingers and you are good. What I really want to seee from paches and expancions is a easy way to reduce mechanical part of SC. Examples: for terran - make quied units used no resources untill they actually in production. Add options to fast priority of use of resources, like prioritice more ot less expencive. prioritice gas units first ..et. Same apply to protos. Make building units have option to autocast - so I can say this barack produce marines as long as there resources avalible. Make me instantly possible to se how many scv's I have so I did not over/under produse them. That apply to protos too. For zers, make injects autocats. Make creep autocast. change creep to not have infinite range ( Quinn allways have to walk to point where creep have to be.) Make production on hatcheries have the same options to autocats/prioritise. In short add tools for non pros to reduce time they spend on mechanics and give them more time to do fun stuff, like micro, positioning, etc. Pros can stil use there a and s fingers. Make scv production autocast. SC2 isn't a strategy games for the vast majority of players. It is a mechanics game. Strategy only plays a part when two players have equal mechanics (which is rare), and even then the one who makes less mechanically mistakes usually wins. You should find another game. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
On August 15 2013 02:44 MockHamill wrote: Overseer and mech change is good, viper change is bad. Vipers are already very overpowered versus mech and rather crappy vs bio. Please make a change that make them better vs bio but worse vs mech the suggested "Blinding Cloud radius to 3.0 Blinding Cloud range reduction to -5 (from -20)" is a good start. Tempest make mech obsolete Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech. tempest is one of the easier things u deal with as meching terran -_- | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 15 2013 23:18 BronzeKnee wrote: SC2 isn't a strategy games for the vast majority of players. It is a mechanics game. Strategy only plays a part when two players have equal mechanics (which is rare), and even then the one who makes less mechanically mistakes usually wins. You should find another game. SC2 is an economic simulation with some action elements... just watch todays match of Shine vs Kangho on Newkirk Precinct. 30+ minutes with battles lasting no more than 20 seconds (most around 10 secs) and the most important part being production capability. Sure enough the skill and some element of luck were also there, but only the skill or luck to arrange the right place for a fight. No large unit microing skill ... And David Kim hates "static" Siege Tank because it is boring ... roflmao ... this is just as boring because "skill with units" doesnt really show. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On August 15 2013 23:16 Rabiator wrote: PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers. You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage. But that is why terran should add ghosts to their army then, to snipe the HT (and if protoss is getting tempest and HT, terran can surely get some ravens and ghost). See how this sort of arguing goes? Everyone and their mother knows HT can counter ravens, but that is not the end of the story, because now ghosts counter ravens. Consider this from the protoss perspective: "I can't use tempest, because terran just gets ravens to PDD my shots. I can't use stalkers to deplete the PDD becuase they just get killed by the tanks. And I can't get HT to feedback the ravens because their ghosts will just snipe my HT. That is why mech is so hard to deal with." | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
On August 15 2013 23:31 convention wrote: "I can't use tempest, because terran just gets ravens to PDD my shots. I can't use stalkers to deplete the PDD becuase they just get killed by the tanks. And I can't get HT to feedback the ravens because their ghosts will just snipe my HT. That is why mech is so hard to deal with." This reasoning doesn't work because you as protoss have the range advantage thanks to tempest. Ghosts cannot counter your templar unless terran decides to push forward and that puts the engagement in your favor. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On August 15 2013 23:45 pmp10 wrote: This reasoning doesn't work because you as protoss have the range advantage thanks to tempest. Ghosts cannot counter your templar unless terran decides to push forward and that puts the engagement in your favor. But it´s not like you can never attack if you don´t have the range advantage. Zergs could never attack in that case, and tempest don´t really do much damage against ground so it´s not like you will lose all of your units if they get the first shot. | ||
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