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On August 14 2013 15:43 playa wrote:
I feel like they have already removed colossi from p vs z. If you could just push 1 button on a viper to nuke every colossus on the map... I'd already think "what difference does it make..." Buffing the viper is a comical thing I'm assuming. They want to amuse me and make me laugh, is all that I can think. My main concern is that people will stop blindly making vipers because everyone else will now give up on making colossi..
Since you can't make colossi in p vs z... I have to assume this is a buff to toss... since I can instantly kill a viper (unless they use a spell first). I wish they would give up on mech. They look ridiculous hating on the tank, yet at the same time acting like they want mech to be viable, too. Going back to something they've already tried in beta. So desperate. Maybe they should allow Terran to just start with plus 1 weapons/armor in every game. Or, instead of making clown changes, they could just wait till the next expansion and add new units. The immortal is kind of an anti mech unit... unless you make emp easier for terran to use/get, it's probably going to be hard to change mech in a meaningful way. So tired of hearing about mech.
I assume they intend to buff vipers to deal with mech/viking, which they're anticipating being popular and strong. Colossi are already kind of a non-factor in PvZ unless we're talking about one of the long, slow swarm host grinds.
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On August 14 2013 16:04 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 15:43 playa wrote:
I feel like they have already removed colossi from p vs z. If you could just push 1 button on a viper to nuke every colossus on the map... I'd already think "what difference does it make..." Buffing the viper is a comical thing I'm assuming. They want to amuse me and make me laugh, is all that I can think. My main concern is that people will stop blindly making vipers because everyone else will now give up on making colossi..
Since you can't make colossi in p vs z... I have to assume this is a buff to toss... since I can instantly kill a viper (unless they use a spell first). I wish they would give up on mech. They look ridiculous hating on the tank, yet at the same time acting like they want mech to be viable, too. Going back to something they've already tried in beta. So desperate. Maybe they should allow Terran to just start with plus 1 weapons/armor in every game. Or, instead of making clown changes, they could just wait till the next expansion and add new units. The immortal is kind of an anti mech unit... unless you make emp easier for terran to use/get, it's probably going to be hard to change mech in a meaningful way. So tired of hearing about mech.
I assume they intend to buff vipers to deal with mech/viking, which they're anticipating being popular and strong. Colossi are already kind of a non-factor in PvZ unless we're talking about one of the long, slow swarm host grinds.
That would be a fairly stupid anticipation. Sure not having to research air weapons helps a bit, but it doesn't deal with the reasons why mech isn't popular.
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On August 14 2013 16:35 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 16:04 Daralii wrote:On August 14 2013 15:43 playa wrote:
I feel like they have already removed colossi from p vs z. If you could just push 1 button on a viper to nuke every colossus on the map... I'd already think "what difference does it make..." Buffing the viper is a comical thing I'm assuming. They want to amuse me and make me laugh, is all that I can think. My main concern is that people will stop blindly making vipers because everyone else will now give up on making colossi..
Since you can't make colossi in p vs z... I have to assume this is a buff to toss... since I can instantly kill a viper (unless they use a spell first). I wish they would give up on mech. They look ridiculous hating on the tank, yet at the same time acting like they want mech to be viable, too. Going back to something they've already tried in beta. So desperate. Maybe they should allow Terran to just start with plus 1 weapons/armor in every game. Or, instead of making clown changes, they could just wait till the next expansion and add new units. The immortal is kind of an anti mech unit... unless you make emp easier for terran to use/get, it's probably going to be hard to change mech in a meaningful way. So tired of hearing about mech.
I assume they intend to buff vipers to deal with mech/viking, which they're anticipating being popular and strong. Colossi are already kind of a non-factor in PvZ unless we're talking about one of the long, slow swarm host grinds. That would be a fairly stupid anticipation. Sure not having to research air weapons helps a bit, but it doesn't deal with the reasons why mech isn't popular.
Can't really comment on mech, but I do agree with the colossi in the longer, swarm host games. This is def a buff for me, lol, since I don't play with healthbars always on. Much easier if they normally all have full energy to begin with  I hope people don't waste some energy just to avoid dying to insta feedback 
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realy? if you buff mech zerg is down for 100%. nad terrans stop cry viper you can easy counter viper with viking if play play mech anyway. take a look at this days on the ladder
1 terra 2 terra 3 Toss 4 terra 5 zerg 6 terra 7 toss 8 terra 9 zerg 10 toss
best 10 player in the world and only 2 zerg and 2 toss and you buff terra gj.
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On August 14 2013 14:59 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 14:55 plogamer wrote:On August 14 2013 14:52 beg wrote:On August 14 2013 14:48 Rabiator wrote:On August 14 2013 08:56 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 06:53 boxerfred wrote:On August 14 2013 06:48 purakushi wrote:On August 14 2013 06:40 Entirety wrote:On August 14 2013 05:40 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 04:32 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
It wasn't even as he described. Zerg rarely went up to three base quick, this was only vs Protoss. Typical vs Terran was either 2 hatch muta or 3 hatch muta, with the 3rd hatch if the Zerg chose to go so being in the main. Zerg would have exactly 8 lings with speed and two sunken colonies when the Terran pushed out if it was going standard. Terran would push out with exactly two medics. Terran pushed out for the sole purpose of establishing a small amount of map presence and forcing the Zerg to build two sunken colonies, spending extra minerals. Zerg would sometimes build extra speedlings and try to flank from both sides the Marine/Medic squad that came out. However, some Terrans would build firebats instead of only marines, which would make this speedling play incredibly risky and result in having to build sunkens regardless, meaning less drones. Assuming things went standard, Zerg would have exactly 35 supply in a 3hatch scenario when the spire popped, in which Zerg would also have just had the third larvae pop from all 3 hatches, allowing exactly 9 mutas to be built. They'd eventually go up to 11 and force the Terran back into his base.
Drops were not a constant threat like you mentioned at this point in the game. Terran would then build up a MM force and defend with turrets while Zerg was taking the third. Two hydras would be put on the ramp, morphed into lurkers of the third, with the eggs preventing the terran from moving up the ramp and bum rushing it. Then, the lurkers would finish and burrow at the top of the ramp, making it nigh impossible for Terran to push up. What made Flash so distinguished from other Terran players was that his control was impeccable, he would move out with only 2/3 of 3/4 of the standard bio force at the time, and rely purely on control/micro to not get picked off by the mutas. This allowed him to pressure the third sooner, making Zergs drone up less in response and have a worse off economy.
Zerg would then attempt to contain Terran with lurkers. Terran could not push Zerg without a science vessel, and there was micro engagements (term used was leapfrogging) of tanks pushing forward to shoot lurkers, with the lurkers unburrowing and reburrowing just out of range. Constant micro engagements. Zerg could either stay on lurker/ling for a long time and try to go for a flank if Terran moved out too soon, Terran needed to actively scout the hive timing. Typically if Zerg did not go excessive lurker/ling, Terran would move out wiht 3 tanks 1 science vessel and a ton of MM. Sniping the vessel was a huge deal if Zerg could pull it off. If Terran could move across the map directly to Zerg, he would get stomped, so Zerg simply leapfrogged lurkers delaying as long as possible. Then, as he retreated to his base, Zerg would typically have 5+ sunken colonies which Terran sieged up as Zerg bought time.
The timings were on such an insanely thin wire. Savior rose to prominence for being known at holding at THE LAST SECOND. As in, the approaching Terran army would kill all the sunkens, kill like 60% of the lurkers, and AS the Terran was stimming in for a killing blow, the defilers would pop with consume ready and get a Dark Swarm off. 10 seconds later and each time he would have been killed.
At this point, Terran is taking a third and Zerg a fourth, Terran is retreating vs Zerg Dark swarms and building up a double starport fleet of mass vessels. Terran's priority is to irridiate all defilers that are available and take the Zerg on in a headon engagement. Zerg's priority is to consistently delay pushes, counter attack, etc. Zerg would have to clone scourge to kill vessels, try to get plagues off on the vessels, and now start drop play as Mutas were no longer a threat (usually dead by now). Micro engagements go on all across the map, with vessels wandering out in dangerous territory (remember there's plague, no fungal) to irridiate defilers/ultras/lurkers, while scourge try to pick off said vessels, with marines protecting the vessels. It was insane to watch the control on both sides, there's nothing comparable in SC2. Zerg would often build 1-2 mutas when a Sci Vessel cloud got plagued and use the bounce to three shot science vessels with a single attack. Terran would try to tech to mass amounts of tanks, as the splash still dealt damage, and shoot for a split map scenario which Terran would win almost every single time (Flash became also notorious for doing this ridiculously well, creating unbreakable situations). Zerg would attempt to mass expand and mine out the map and simply deny terran expansions. Cracklings vs supply depots were INSANE at how fast they took down buildings. In fact, if you haven't seen the insane damage output Zerglings wtih Adrenal had in BW, it was RIDICULOUS.
There were so many other scenarios that could play out, but the thing was, each scenario was so perfected, so exact. SC2 is just so volatile and due to the macro mechanics will never be able to achieve the exactly level of precision BW had. You're filling in a lot more of the details, I just tried to give a quick view into what it was like and how different the dynamics were. That's why I glazed past the early and late game portions. Other options included vulture runbys, fortifying a position and isolating the 3rd, and plenty of other different strategies depending on the map architecture (remember cloaked wraiths?), which had much more meaning in BW IMO, it seems the only differences in SC2 architecture are good map vs non-playable. Still, your examples highlight even more how amazing it was to watch BW. The top tier pros were so good it was unreal. In SC2, I feel like I could clean up a little bit of control and play with the pros. In BW, I don't even understand how these guys managed playing with perfect control in 3 different battles, some of which spanned multiple screen lengths. They really were on a completely different level. SC2 is still quite young compared to Brood War... doesn't it make sense that not everything is refined perfectly? Especially since HotS just came out... then LotV will come out... then give it 10 years to reach that level of precision. If you compare the amount of patches BW had versus SC2 has/will have, it is very difficult to defend SC2. The fact that LotV is not yet out is the only thing that sort of makes it tolerable. Kind of, but not really. I do not mind, though. My expectations for SC2 were/are pretty low (but I still enjoy it overall), so I can wait 10 years for it to even dream of coming close to BW. I'm wondering what would happen if Blizzard would give Brood War a graphical re-design and leave everything else as it is. Would it be a hipster game(as it kind of is nowadays)? Assuming they updated the engine to allow for unlimited selection, multiple building selection, rally points, etc (the niceties of actually playing the game) I think we would have a dota2 situation. Blizzard had no need to completely revamp the StarCraft formula. Had they simply recreated the game with a 2010 graphics and processing power, it would crush the shit out of every other RTS out there. Granted, it's nearly impossible to recreate the same engine to allow for things like muta stacking, patrol-attacking, etc, you could still end up with a very similar game. Dota2 suffered from some of these minor differences as well, Earthshaker most notably was a BEAST on DotA, and is somewhat lackluster in DotA2 simply due to the underlying mechanics of his skills being affected by the new engine. Unlimited unit selection and the tight movement is one of the biggest problems of SC2 ... so we would have a game almost as shitty and problem loaded as SC2 if they had added those two things to a "BW HD" version. It wouldnt be that bad because there would still be the low economy from BW, but in longer games the production would reach SC2 levels and thus make them terrible with deathball armies. Unlimited unit selection and the tight "perfect" movement is the core reason why deathballs exist and they also allow for "critical numbers" for ground forces. That is BAD ... really bad! Just think about what "critical number" actually means: it means a group of units gets increasingly efficient with increasing numbers and eventually there is a point where that efficiency makes that clump of units somewhat invulnerable due to the fact that they can kill any opposing unit before taking significant losses. That is BAD because IT ISNT BALANCED. Many units have this problem, but for some they have adjusted the "base balance" (for just a few of the unit) to be somewhat useless to keep their "critical number damage" manageable. Void Rays is the perfect example, but the Infestor works too. Oh and the deathball is the same exact problem, it just incorporates more than one unit type. So do you really like the deathball and critical numbers? If so then by all means go on thinking of "unlimited unit selection" as an advancement due to technology. It isnt really and the original devs of Starcraft limited the selection to 12 ON PURPOSE. It wasnt a technical limitation and they probably did it because a) it was part of the game concept (as was AND STILL IS the 200 supply limit ...) and b) possibly was necessary to balance the game. i dont see any advantages of clumped up units compared to concaves or flanks. both of the latter would be way superior to a ball, soooooo... maybe you're a little bit too biased on the deathball issue? just a tiny little bit? Clumped range units = more dps concentrated concaved range units = even more dps flanked melee units = same
What a completely worthless observation.
'Clumped range units = more dps' describes a unit characteristic of marines. 'Concav-ing' and flanking requires user input, while marines clump most happily in bronze league as well.
You basically try to counter a perfectly legit despription of a unit's advantage with "But playing better leads to advantages as well". No shit, Sherlock. Stuff like this makes this thread unwieldy as hell.
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I like the Viper buff for the ZvP matchup:
Most of the ZvPs are still decided by 2base allins from the protoss and zergs have a really hard time dealing with that.
With the viper buff, zergs now have another viable option: rushing to vipers
This leads to better defensive possibilities for the zerg and thus longer games in this matchup in general
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 14 2013 15:43 playa wrote:
I feel like they have already removed colossi from p vs z. If you could just push 1 button on a viper to nuke every colossus on the map... I'd already think "what difference does it make..." Buffing the viper is a comical thing I'm assuming. They want to amuse me and make me laugh, is all that I can think. My main concern is that people will stop blindly making vipers because everyone else will now give up on making colossi..
Since you can't make colossi in p vs z... I have to assume this is a buff to toss... since I can instantly kill a viper (unless they use a spell first). I wish they would give up on mech. They look ridiculous hating on the tank, yet at the same time acting like they want mech to be viable, too. Going back to something they've already tried in beta. So desperate. Maybe they should allow Terran to just start with plus 1 weapons/armor in every game. Or, instead of making clown changes, they could just wait till the next expansion and add new units. The immortal is kind of an anti mech unit... unless you make emp easier for terran to use/get, it's probably going to be hard to change mech in a meaningful way. So tired of hearing about mech.
Removing the collosus from PvZ wouldn't be such a bad thing. Storm is much more interesting to watch 
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On August 14 2013 17:50 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 15:43 playa wrote:
I feel like they have already removed colossi from p vs z. If you could just push 1 button on a viper to nuke every colossus on the map... I'd already think "what difference does it make..." Buffing the viper is a comical thing I'm assuming. They want to amuse me and make me laugh, is all that I can think. My main concern is that people will stop blindly making vipers because everyone else will now give up on making colossi..
Since you can't make colossi in p vs z... I have to assume this is a buff to toss... since I can instantly kill a viper (unless they use a spell first). I wish they would give up on mech. They look ridiculous hating on the tank, yet at the same time acting like they want mech to be viable, too. Going back to something they've already tried in beta. So desperate. Maybe they should allow Terran to just start with plus 1 weapons/armor in every game. Or, instead of making clown changes, they could just wait till the next expansion and add new units. The immortal is kind of an anti mech unit... unless you make emp easier for terran to use/get, it's probably going to be hard to change mech in a meaningful way. So tired of hearing about mech.
Removing the collosus from PvZ wouldn't be such a bad thing. Storm is much more interesting to watch
On top of that it is sooo bad in design. Imagine this was brood war or any other rts but I'll use bw because thats the only other I really know. So imagine in bw if P would start going reaver you literally had to get valkyre/devourer to counter it, that would make bw pvz so fucking terrible. Colossi is just that in star 2 and tbh I'd much rather see it replaced by another unit than continue to have that thing that either forces air units that become useless afterwords or gets hard countered by a spell caster, imo it would be so much better if colossi were based around microing them vs ground units rather than using templar to kill viper or "micro" vs corrupter.
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- overseer buff: awesome
- combined upgrades: awesome, now force bio players to transition at some point (they have gas left over to start +1 +1 armory ups anyway after 12-14 min mark).
- viper buff: just plain bad. doesnt help blinding cloud vs mobile stalker, roach hydra, bio armies at all and simply buffs all ins. its as stupid as the free siege mode buff which let the tank stay bad, it just got better at timings (mainly to defend). really hope they dont do the full energy thing and buff blinding cloud vs bio. sth. like BC reduces range by 6 while staying at 14 sec cloud but also being attached to units for 4 sec or so. make BC worse vs immobile and big ranged armies like tanks and better vs mobile ones.
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- combined upgrades: awesome, now force bio players to transition at some point (they have gas left over to start +1 +1 armory ups anyway after 12-14 min mark).
Force ? It is already super efficient without 1/1 armory why would they change ?
Combined upgrades is a terrible idea, 2/2 MMM push with +1 plating would not only benefit to the mines (And I feel like its already powerful enough) but would make the medivacs way more tenacious...
Medivacs need 17 muta hits to be killed, +1 Medivacs need 19... We're talking about a unit that has an escape spell...
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On August 14 2013 15:25 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 15:20 Rabiator wrote:On August 14 2013 14:59 beg wrote:On August 14 2013 14:55 plogamer wrote:On August 14 2013 14:52 beg wrote:On August 14 2013 14:48 Rabiator wrote:On August 14 2013 08:56 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 06:53 boxerfred wrote:On August 14 2013 06:48 purakushi wrote:On August 14 2013 06:40 Entirety wrote:
[quote]
SC2 is still quite young compared to Brood War... doesn't it make sense that not everything is refined perfectly? Especially since HotS just came out... then LotV will come out... then give it 10 years to reach that level of precision. If you compare the amount of patches BW had versus SC2 has/will have, it is very difficult to defend SC2. The fact that LotV is not yet out is the only thing that sort of makes it tolerable. Kind of, but not really. I do not mind, though. My expectations for SC2 were/are pretty low (but I still enjoy it overall), so I can wait 10 years for it to even dream of coming close to BW. I'm wondering what would happen if Blizzard would give Brood War a graphical re-design and leave everything else as it is. Would it be a hipster game(as it kind of is nowadays)? Assuming they updated the engine to allow for unlimited selection, multiple building selection, rally points, etc (the niceties of actually playing the game) I think we would have a dota2 situation. Blizzard had no need to completely revamp the StarCraft formula. Had they simply recreated the game with a 2010 graphics and processing power, it would crush the shit out of every other RTS out there. Granted, it's nearly impossible to recreate the same engine to allow for things like muta stacking, patrol-attacking, etc, you could still end up with a very similar game. Dota2 suffered from some of these minor differences as well, Earthshaker most notably was a BEAST on DotA, and is somewhat lackluster in DotA2 simply due to the underlying mechanics of his skills being affected by the new engine. Unlimited unit selection and the tight movement is one of the biggest problems of SC2 ... so we would have a game almost as shitty and problem loaded as SC2 if they had added those two things to a "BW HD" version. It wouldnt be that bad because there would still be the low economy from BW, but in longer games the production would reach SC2 levels and thus make them terrible with deathball armies. Unlimited unit selection and the tight "perfect" movement is the core reason why deathballs exist and they also allow for "critical numbers" for ground forces. That is BAD ... really bad! Just think about what "critical number" actually means: it means a group of units gets increasingly efficient with increasing numbers and eventually there is a point where that efficiency makes that clump of units somewhat invulnerable due to the fact that they can kill any opposing unit before taking significant losses. That is BAD because IT ISNT BALANCED. Many units have this problem, but for some they have adjusted the "base balance" (for just a few of the unit) to be somewhat useless to keep their "critical number damage" manageable. Void Rays is the perfect example, but the Infestor works too. Oh and the deathball is the same exact problem, it just incorporates more than one unit type. So do you really like the deathball and critical numbers? If so then by all means go on thinking of "unlimited unit selection" as an advancement due to technology. It isnt really and the original devs of Starcraft limited the selection to 12 ON PURPOSE. It wasnt a technical limitation and they probably did it because a) it was part of the game concept (as was AND STILL IS the 200 supply limit ...) and b) possibly was necessary to balance the game. i dont see any advantages of clumped up units compared to concaves or flanks. both of the latter would be way superior to a ball, soooooo... maybe you're a little bit too biased on the deathball issue? just a tiny little bit? Clumped range units = more dps concentrated concaved range units = even more dps flanked melee units = same Concave is only true for ranged units with low range and generally between armies of the same type of units - because more units can shoot - but what if they can shoot at stuff anyways? The ball shape is better against melee units unless you can limit the surface area in a choke. There is another reason for the Protoss deathball: Forcefield limits the incoming dps and thus increases survivability by neutralizing a part of the opposing army. Since "crowd control spells" are actually terrible and Stalkers can be overwhelmed easily by a swarm of Zerglings it would be a much better idea to take those abilities out of the game and reduce the "dps concentration" to an amount where an opponent has the time to react and do something with micro. SC2 is focused in the "technological advancement" and its general design philosophy on the attacker and that is bad, because there must be a balance between attacker and defender. There are two sides to the game and it shouldnt be decided by whoever pulls out his gun first. On August 14 2013 15:18 beg wrote:On August 14 2013 15:12 Rabiator wrote:On August 14 2013 14:52 beg wrote:On August 14 2013 14:48 Rabiator wrote:On August 14 2013 08:56 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 06:53 boxerfred wrote:On August 14 2013 06:48 purakushi wrote:On August 14 2013 06:40 Entirety wrote:
[quote]
SC2 is still quite young compared to Brood War... doesn't it make sense that not everything is refined perfectly? Especially since HotS just came out... then LotV will come out... then give it 10 years to reach that level of precision. If you compare the amount of patches BW had versus SC2 has/will have, it is very difficult to defend SC2. The fact that LotV is not yet out is the only thing that sort of makes it tolerable. Kind of, but not really. I do not mind, though. My expectations for SC2 were/are pretty low (but I still enjoy it overall), so I can wait 10 years for it to even dream of coming close to BW. I'm wondering what would happen if Blizzard would give Brood War a graphical re-design and leave everything else as it is. Would it be a hipster game(as it kind of is nowadays)? Assuming they updated the engine to allow for unlimited selection, multiple building selection, rally points, etc (the niceties of actually playing the game) I think we would have a dota2 situation. Blizzard had no need to completely revamp the StarCraft formula. Had they simply recreated the game with a 2010 graphics and processing power, it would crush the shit out of every other RTS out there. Granted, it's nearly impossible to recreate the same engine to allow for things like muta stacking, patrol-attacking, etc, you could still end up with a very similar game. Dota2 suffered from some of these minor differences as well, Earthshaker most notably was a BEAST on DotA, and is somewhat lackluster in DotA2 simply due to the underlying mechanics of his skills being affected by the new engine. Unlimited unit selection and the tight movement is one of the biggest problems of SC2 ... so we would have a game almost as shitty and problem loaded as SC2 if they had added those two things to a "BW HD" version. It wouldnt be that bad because there would still be the low economy from BW, but in longer games the production would reach SC2 levels and thus make them terrible with deathball armies. Unlimited unit selection and the tight "perfect" movement is the core reason why deathballs exist and they also allow for "critical numbers" for ground forces. That is BAD ... really bad! Just think about what "critical number" actually means: it means a group of units gets increasingly efficient with increasing numbers and eventually there is a point where that efficiency makes that clump of units somewhat invulnerable due to the fact that they can kill any opposing unit before taking significant losses. That is BAD because IT ISNT BALANCED. Many units have this problem, but for some they have adjusted the "base balance" (for just a few of the unit) to be somewhat useless to keep their "critical number damage" manageable. Void Rays is the perfect example, but the Infestor works too. Oh and the deathball is the same exact problem, it just incorporates more than one unit type. So do you really like the deathball and critical numbers? If so then by all means go on thinking of "unlimited unit selection" as an advancement due to technology. It isnt really and the original devs of Starcraft limited the selection to 12 ON PURPOSE. It wasnt a technical limitation and they probably did it because a) it was part of the game concept (as was AND STILL IS the 200 supply limit ...) and b) possibly was necessary to balance the game. i dont see any advantages of clumped up units compared to concaves or flanks. both of the latter would be way superior to a ball, soooooo... maybe you're a little bit too biased on the deathball issue? just a tiny little bit? Its NOT ABOUT THE SHAPE. Its all about the concentration of units. More units concentrated in an area = more army dps = higher kill speed. Now that looks great from the attacker POV, but what if you are the defender and were just looking somewhere else? Then you are screwed! So there must be a limit on the unit density and limited unit selection and forced unit spreading while moving are the way to go. The "ball shape" is just a mathematical byproduct of those two bad "advancements" in SC2 and doesnt mean anything. ok, thats a lot clearer, but it's not in sc2 and never will be. so? maybe you still have hope... good luck trying to convince blizzard to introduce such anti-casual features into an already established playerbase (consisting out of mostly casual players) I know it there is a small hope, but the main problem is that too many people are simply saying "good luck" instead of saying "I totally understand and agree" .... Do YOU understand the problem I was pointing out? since i never experienced the depths of BW, i just cannot relate in the same way as you. to me it just looks like a different design with both good and bad consequences.
BW has some "limitations" due to older technology (buggy pathing, 8-directional pathing), but some are NOT in that game due to technology but rather a design choice (12 unit selection limit). Most people claim the unlimited unit selection as a "technological improvement", but they are wrong, because Total Annihilation already had unlimited unit selection. So it was a conscious decision of the devs back then to use the limit rather than going for the easy "whatever we can do is going to make the game better" ... which is an illusion of the "newer is automatically better" type.
Every new product needs an objective quality control which has to make a correct judgement. I dont really blame Blizzard for not seeing the problems of the economy / production / unlimited unit selection / unit clumping before they released SC2 (I didnt see it either), but I do blame them for not seeing it now - or rather at the end of WoL - and not doing what is necessary to make the game easier to balance and play. They are like "shit, we chose a wild horse to ride on, so we better hang on more tightliy" ... but my prediction is that this horse (of massive armies and ez-mode unit control) will never be tamed and should be let go instead. Another analogy would be with a race car ... *some* players will be able to drive it as it was meant to be while most will crash because they can not handle it. BW is more like a VW Beetle ... everyone can drive it (and it isnt as comfortable to drive as a modern day car) and some can get more out of it because of their skill.
A direct comparison to BW isnt really necessary, the simple facts of the unit density problem [1] and the critical numbers problem [2] are enough.
[1] Marines have roughly the same dps as Stalkers. Marines are much smaller than Stalkers. With super tight unit clumping that results in a ball of Marines which has a higher dps per area compared to the Stalkers. Additionally the Marines are much easier to produce en masse. That is the reason why Protoss NEEDS Blink and Forcefield and I usually call them "crutches".
[2] Critical numbers result in two levels of efficiency for a unit and the higher one can make the unit "quasi-invulnerable", which is a bad thing. The core for this is the concentration of units in a smaller area ... which did exist in BW already, BUT only for Mutalisks and it took skill to make it work. In SC2 there isnt any skill requirement and it works for ground units too AND any countermeasures - AoE damage - have been nerfed to "be fair".
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The three buffs are of the "Tim Taylor Home Improvement" type ... MOAR POWER ... and that is bad for a game which is already too fast. Response times of less than a second or so are really terrible and lethal spells which can not be countered - Fungal Growth, Abduct - are even worse. EMP, Forcefield and Psi Storm cant be countered either, but at least they arent automatic death signs like the Zerg spells ...
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I don't remember exactly how good the combined upgrades were in helping mech during the beta but I'm quite sure it's not going to be enough, especially in TvP.
Also this full energy thingy seems like such an excessively weird buff to Vipers, it makes no actual sense to me.
Also #2 they should think about how to make Terran's army management as hard as Zerg's, probably by tweaking widow mines (in making them harder to use rather than less powerful) in some way, I feel like speeding overseers up will only have a limited impact.
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Buff the tank by giving it better armor upgrades essentially making it a bit harder to kill. In theory this would make it so a Protoss unit would take an additional attack. Randomly I'll say 4 shots to kill instead of 3. Seems fair. I don't think that would upset overall race balance too much. Zerg still have SH/Viper.
Once again, don't give the Viper full energy. That's pretty bad . Personally, I wouldn't mind the idea of needing a building before you can start making Vipers, but at Lair tech. Make it just like the Infestation pit in terms of build time, research cost, and upgrade costs. I feel getting to Hive tech, taking the time to build the Vipers, and then consume buildings for energy takes quite a bit of time.
And for that Overseer.........How about speed + sight increase? I like 13 sight. This would give the zerg player a few more valuable seconds to actually STOP and not run all their units/overseers into imba mines  .
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The combined upgrades of mech and air isnt suppose to make TvP mech viable - but to make hellbats and vikings both enjoy the attack upgrade, and as a result, see more hellbats in MMM TvP.
I am afraid, this buff will kinda ruin TvT bio tho, since right now the metagame of Bio vs Mech for the Bio player usally means an Air transition with superior economy - but with that change a Bio player will need to make an air transition vs a mech player which his Air upgrdes are already advanced.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 14 2013 18:38 11B wrote:Buff the tank by giving it better armor upgrades essentially making it a bit harder to kill. In theory this would make it so a Protoss unit would take an additional attack. Randomly I'll say 4 shots to kill instead of 3. Seems fair. I don't think that would upset overall race balance too much. Zerg still have SH/Viper. Once again, don't give the Viper full energy. That's pretty bad . Personally, I wouldn't mind the idea of needing a building before you can start making Vipers, but at Lair tech. Make it just like the Infestation pit in terms of build time, research cost, and upgrade costs. I feel getting to Hive tech, taking the time to build the Vipers, and then consume buildings for energy takes quite a bit of time. And for that Overseer.........How about speed + sight increase? I like 13 sight. This would give the zerg player a few more valuable seconds to actually STOP and not run all their units/overseers into imba mines .
That would pretty much change nothing I think. It's it's damage that's the problem, not even the armor.
It can't even properly defend against swarmhost locusts which are clumped without having an obscene amount of them.
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On August 14 2013 18:06 Decendos wrote:
- overseer buff: awesome
- combined upgrades: awesome, now force bio players to transition at some point (they have gas left over to start +1 +1 armory ups anyway after 12-14 min mark).
It won't force anything, and the fact you have extra gas after 15 minuts doesn't mean you have spare minerals to search upgrades (+1-2-3 attack mech) which might be useful a few minuts later.
On August 14 2013 18:15 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +- combined upgrades: awesome, now force bio players to transition at some point (they have gas left over to start +1 +1 armory ups anyway after 12-14 min mark). Force ? It is already super efficient without 1/1 armory why would they change ? Combined upgrades is a terrible idea, 2/2 MMM push with +1 plating would not only benefit to the mines (And I feel like its already powerful enough) but would make the medivacs way more tenacious... Medivacs need 17 muta hits to be killed, +1 Medivacs need 19... We're talking about a unit that has an escape spell...
Wake up then, the armor upgrade is already merged, and searching it to make Mines/Medivacs more resilient is already standard in 4M macro games.
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How about Siege Tank doing Full damage to protoss shield. It would really help terran mech against the protoss army.
Mech is really immobile, while protoss have storm, immortal, and warpgate.
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How about Siege Tank doing Full damage to protoss shield. It would really help terran mech against the protoss army.
Mech is really immobile, while protoss have storm, immortal, and warpgate.
It won't chage the facts that Thor do better against Tanks and HB than tanks. Nor that you need lots of thors to deal with any anti-air. If this upgrade thing happens, TvT will just be ThorHB into sky from both sides, with very few tanks early to defend.
TvZ is already like that. You can't do anything midgame in mechplay coz tanks sucks and you need lots of thors and HB/hellion, in case there is any air attack coming. It was already the same in WoL. As for TvP the same story happens again.
Every meching composition needs lots of the most expensive and slow to build units. But can't overbuild the grounddefense that is tanks, coz they are bad at their job, so by making them you're even more vulnerable to air, but not so much better onn the ground.
I said it, but i don't care if TvT becomes mech/sky only. But I want as a counterpart mech and biomech compositions to be viable in other MU.
I want marine/tank back, or even marine/tank/mine TvZ. I want mech back TvZ. I want full mech or biomech play viable TvP, or at least one of it.
But what i don't want, is the choice between Bio or "1 hour game building skyterran behind 4 tanks doing nothing until i'm (hopefully) invincible" I can appreciate passive play, I can't like boring one. Mech could be passive in BW, but at the same time really APM and strategically demanding, by placements, extension of defensives extensions, run-bys, mine map control etc...
The "mech" Blizzard is proposing is not like that.
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On August 14 2013 05:32 DrBeansy wrote:
am i the only one that thinks an easier 3-3 is needed for zerg? toss need a twilight and thats it. terran need an armory and thats it. we need lair for 2-2 (like armory and twilight allows), then infestation pit AND hive (100seconds?) for 3-3.
please make infestation pit AND SPIRE allow hive. any zerg playing bane/ling/muta will have a fighting chance of getting to 3-3 before they die
while it would fix certain things in the current level of metagame I would rather change the current metagame then giving zerg an easier 3-3.
The problem of sc2 in general is that everything is too fast. Too fast 200/200, too fast high upgrades (watch protoss 3-0 upgrades after a couple of minutes) etc.
So the real solution to all kind of problems would be adding mech as a viable and must have counter in the development of a game. So terran has to think about if he rather has earlier 3-3 marines or some tech switch into mech/air earlier which would help him to counter something that counters marines of zerg.
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EPT
