I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers 2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation)
Tempest make mech obsolete Sharing mech upgrades does not matter until Tempest is adjusted. A flying unit with extremly long range should not cost 4 food and have a huge number of hitpoints. Every unit need a decent counter, as it is Vikings barley brake even and Thors get completly destroyed for the same food cost. Mech is already very weak vs Protoss but until Tempest gets nerfed it is almost pointless trying to use Mech.
......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots
That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already.
That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy.
PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option.
PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers.
You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage.
And I thought terran have ghost
It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ?
In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway.
If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient.
Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ...
That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ...
Protoss is getting air upgrades on those tempest, otherwise they do about 0 damage per shot. And you should not be getting weapon upgrades on those ghosts, just armor. You aren't right clicking the HT to kill them, you are sniping. Anyway, the original point of this is that one shouldn't dismiss mech because of tempest (there are plenty of reasons mech sucks vs protoss, tempest is not one of them).
Once the HTs are dead the Ghosts can still kill Zealots nicely ... and even better with damage upgrades.
I wasnt talking about air upgrades but about two separate ground upgrade sets.
On August 16 2013 13:05 usethis2 wrote: I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers 2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation)
Honestly I dont buy the "to make Zerg build X" argument. They are the laziest and stupidest sort of players who dont even get burrow most of the time even when that upgrade could save a lot of their units or make their attacks more powerful. Zergs already have to build the fewest buildings of all three races and that should give them enough resources to get those upgrades or to invest in Vipers.
The second argument is even more ridiculous, because drama comes from "close calls" and giving Vipers max energy from the start gives them too much power.
Well, as expected. Also, all that viper change will make is change timings when vipers become useful (yeah, shift of around minute, yeah). Up to you to figure how hard it screws stuff (i personally predict zealot archon with sentries to be more popular in zvp now or moar 2 base all-ins). Overseer speed was completely obvious the second they said that overseers get killed. Merger of upgrades is most interesting change IMO and i imagine understanding where they are going with it.
We have so few mech games and yet they are probably more entertaining than 90% of bio mine games. only mech games give that zerg swarmy feeling and terran with uber good defensive capacity
On August 16 2013 13:31 Livelovedie wrote: I'm kinda surprised people find mech more interesting to watch than bio mine tvz.
bio mine gets kinda stale because it's really just terran rallying units across the map until zerg rushes ultralisks :/ it's kinda ridiculous, especially as a zerg player
On August 15 2013 12:53 SuperYo1000 wrote: [quote]
......really?....if you are going mech and you see tempest...get some ravens...PDD shoots down each of the slow firing shots
That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already.
That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy.
PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option.
PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers.
You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage.
And I thought terran have ghost
It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ?
In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway.
If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient.
Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ...
That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ...
Protoss is getting air upgrades on those tempest, otherwise they do about 0 damage per shot. And you should not be getting weapon upgrades on those ghosts, just armor. You aren't right clicking the HT to kill them, you are sniping. Anyway, the original point of this is that one shouldn't dismiss mech because of tempest (there are plenty of reasons mech sucks vs protoss, tempest is not one of them).
Once the HTs are dead the Ghosts can still kill Zealots nicely ... and even better with damage upgrades.
I wasnt talking about air upgrades but about two separate ground upgrade sets.
On August 16 2013 13:05 usethis2 wrote: I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers 2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation)
Honestly I dont buy the "to make Zerg build X" argument. They are the laziest and stupidest sort of players who dont even get burrow most of the time even when that upgrade could save a lot of their units or make their attacks more powerful. Zergs already have to build the fewest buildings of all three races and that should give them enough resources to get those upgrades or to invest in Vipers.
The second argument is even more ridiculous, because drama comes from "close calls" and giving Vipers max energy from the start gives them too much power.
So terrans can´t possibly invest into some upgrades while their army is mostly minerals? And terran player saying that other the players of the other race are lazy and stupid while terran is the only race with NO need to transition cause you have your late game army from the start. As you don´t play zerg i have to tell you that burrow is useful but staying alive against constant 4m parade push is more important and to do that we need gas for banes. (you know, the green stuff. You use it on upgrades and.. Well upgrades yeah.)
On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote: [quote] That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already.
That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy.
PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option.
PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers.
You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage.
And I thought terran have ghost
It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ?
In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway.
If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient.
Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ...
That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ...
Protoss is getting air upgrades on those tempest, otherwise they do about 0 damage per shot. And you should not be getting weapon upgrades on those ghosts, just armor. You aren't right clicking the HT to kill them, you are sniping. Anyway, the original point of this is that one shouldn't dismiss mech because of tempest (there are plenty of reasons mech sucks vs protoss, tempest is not one of them).
Once the HTs are dead the Ghosts can still kill Zealots nicely ... and even better with damage upgrades.
I wasnt talking about air upgrades but about two separate ground upgrade sets.
On August 16 2013 13:05 usethis2 wrote: I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers 2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation)
Honestly I dont buy the "to make Zerg build X" argument. They are the laziest and stupidest sort of players who dont even get burrow most of the time even when that upgrade could save a lot of their units or make their attacks more powerful. Zergs already have to build the fewest buildings of all three races and that should give them enough resources to get those upgrades or to invest in Vipers.
The second argument is even more ridiculous, because drama comes from "close calls" and giving Vipers max energy from the start gives them too much power.
So terrans can´t possibly invest into some upgrades while their army is mostly minerals? And terran player saying that other the players of the other race are lazy and stupid while terran is the only race with NO need to transition cause you have your late game army from the start. As you don´t play zerg i have to tell you that burrow is useful but staying alive against constant 4m parade push is more important and to do that we need gas for banes. (you know, the green stuff. You use it on upgrades and.. Well upgrades yeah.)
First thing people fail to realize about Terran:
We don't stay on biomine / bio / whatever because we want and can, we do it because we have NO TRANSITION THAT MATCHES T3 of the other races. Deal with it, learn it, accept it and try to understand it.
If you give me a viable transition that is powerful enough to withstand lategame OR not as powerful but viable as it doesn't t ake ages, then please do so. High tier of other races can either be increased in speed (chrono) or build in higher numbers to make up for long-building times without adding infrastructure beforehand.
Terran would need to either add multiple factories or starports + the fusion core to start transitioning and frankly that transition is not just not on par, but also takes a long time, so please don't tell us "we don't NEED" to transition. We simply can't.
On August 15 2013 15:09 Rabiator wrote: [quote] That wont help you forever. Sure enough the PDD will help you in a battle, but then it sits there on that same spot and is useless in the next battle 5 cm to the left. You wont have enough Ravens to cover the whole map with PDDs and they are limited in their utility already.
That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy.
PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option.
PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers.
You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage.
And I thought terran have ghost
It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ?
In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway.
If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient.
Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ...
That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ...
Protoss is getting air upgrades on those tempest, otherwise they do about 0 damage per shot. And you should not be getting weapon upgrades on those ghosts, just armor. You aren't right clicking the HT to kill them, you are sniping. Anyway, the original point of this is that one shouldn't dismiss mech because of tempest (there are plenty of reasons mech sucks vs protoss, tempest is not one of them).
Once the HTs are dead the Ghosts can still kill Zealots nicely ... and even better with damage upgrades.
I wasnt talking about air upgrades but about two separate ground upgrade sets.
On August 16 2013 13:05 usethis2 wrote: I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers 2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation)
Honestly I dont buy the "to make Zerg build X" argument. They are the laziest and stupidest sort of players who dont even get burrow most of the time even when that upgrade could save a lot of their units or make their attacks more powerful. Zergs already have to build the fewest buildings of all three races and that should give them enough resources to get those upgrades or to invest in Vipers.
The second argument is even more ridiculous, because drama comes from "close calls" and giving Vipers max energy from the start gives them too much power.
So terrans can´t possibly invest into some upgrades while their army is mostly minerals? And terran player saying that other the players of the other race are lazy and stupid while terran is the only race with NO need to transition cause you have your late game army from the start. As you don´t play zerg i have to tell you that burrow is useful but staying alive against constant 4m parade push is more important and to do that we need gas for banes. (you know, the green stuff. You use it on upgrades and.. Well upgrades yeah.)
People have suggested that Blizzard should lower the cost of Burrow to make more people get it a lot of times already and now this "make it cheaper and people will use it more" idea comes up. It is bad design and lazy players. To "counter" my comment about a reasoning behind a change which I felt was a bad / stupid way to go you pull a sandbox argument of "but Terrans do X" ... Talk about one issue at a time! Doing a bad thing because others do a bad thing to is NOT a justification!
The terran upgrade merger is a really bad thing to do - just as the removal of Siege upgrade was - because it is a) unstylish and b) doesnt buff mech at all.
That's a terrible argument. The nature of an RTS dictates that every strategy and unit composition has a counter. Anyone can sit in their chair and spout off why something won't work. There has to be a counter, and writing it down doesn't suddenly invalidate the strategy.
PDD will last borderline forever against the tempest's slow moving shot. In my opinion, pushing up the map with PDD shutting down Protoss siege is a fantastic option.
PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers.
You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage.
And I thought terran have ghost
It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ?
In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway.
If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient.
Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ...
That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ...
Protoss is getting air upgrades on those tempest, otherwise they do about 0 damage per shot. And you should not be getting weapon upgrades on those ghosts, just armor. You aren't right clicking the HT to kill them, you are sniping. Anyway, the original point of this is that one shouldn't dismiss mech because of tempest (there are plenty of reasons mech sucks vs protoss, tempest is not one of them).
Once the HTs are dead the Ghosts can still kill Zealots nicely ... and even better with damage upgrades.
I wasnt talking about air upgrades but about two separate ground upgrade sets.
On August 16 2013 13:05 usethis2 wrote: I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers 2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation)
Honestly I dont buy the "to make Zerg build X" argument. They are the laziest and stupidest sort of players who dont even get burrow most of the time even when that upgrade could save a lot of their units or make their attacks more powerful. Zergs already have to build the fewest buildings of all three races and that should give them enough resources to get those upgrades or to invest in Vipers.
The second argument is even more ridiculous, because drama comes from "close calls" and giving Vipers max energy from the start gives them too much power.
So terrans can´t possibly invest into some upgrades while their army is mostly minerals? And terran player saying that other the players of the other race are lazy and stupid while terran is the only race with NO need to transition cause you have your late game army from the start. As you don´t play zerg i have to tell you that burrow is useful but staying alive against constant 4m parade push is more important and to do that we need gas for banes. (you know, the green stuff. You use it on upgrades and.. Well upgrades yeah.)
First thing people fail to realize about Terran:
We don't stay on biomine / bio / whatever because we want and can, we do it because we have NO TRANSITION THAT MATCHES T3 of the other races. Deal with it, learn it, accept it and try to understand it.
If you give me a viable transition that is powerful enough to withstand lategame OR not as powerful but viable as it doesn't t ake ages, then please do so. High tier of other races can either be increased in speed (chrono) or build in higher numbers to make up for long-building times without adding infrastructure beforehand.
Terran would need to either add multiple factories or starports + the fusion core to start transitioning and frankly that transition is not just not on par, but also takes a long time, so please don't tell us "we don't NEED" to transition. We simply can't.
Second thing people fail to realize about Terran:
Zergs are always greedy for more gas because they can actually utilize it! Give a Zerg 2000 gas - woohoo Mutalisks! - woohoo 3-3 upgrades + Hive tech/upgrades! - woohoo Infestors! - woohoo Banelings! - woohoo Brood Lords! - woohoo Ultralisks! Zerg gets too much gas = GG
Give a Terran 2000 gas... - ...Reapers? they suck past 4 minutes - ...Ravens? Maybe, has potential, but there is simply too much time needed to transition, and they simply aren't good enough to be worth it. - ...Banshees? Lategame? I suppose...? - ...Battlecruisers? Erm, they suck. AND they take too much time to build. - ...Ghosts? YES... before the Snipe nerf. - ...Thors? Nope, Roaches and Lings deal with them too well. - ...Tanks? Hahaha TvZ mech... you're funny.
Why not start the viper off with 100 energy if you want to buff it? Then it's a choice, do I need that one spell now for a clutch defence? should i rush a push and risk it? should i wait and consume? It's still a buff but not an outlandish one, really hope they don't put full energy vipers into the game, seems weird.
Here is the problem with a game containing too many hard counters:
1. Vipers are really good vs mech. 2. Terran knows this so they don't even bother going mech. 3. Since no one goes mech, no one builds vipers.
Its basically a vicious circle which stems from flawed game design. The only way to fix it is to make vipers a little bit less good vs mech while also making them a little better vs bio. Easy fix would be to swap the energy costs; 75 for blinding cloud and 100 for abduct.
On August 16 2013 13:05 usethis2 wrote: I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers 2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation)
It just amazes me that Blizzard can't see why the viper isn't being used more in TvZ. First off blinding cloud hard counters the big units of terran to much and without any real way to prevent it from going down(sure you can kill the vipers with vikings, but usually the blinding clouds still go down before they die) like feedback in PvZ. That simply leaves no big units for the viper to hard counter.
Second is of course the fact blinding cloud just sucks against mobile armies. I don't really understand why they don't change blinding cloud already. For TvZ I don't feel mech needs much love to be viable, aslong as they change blinding cloud. It's an overkill to have both abilities of the viper counter the same type of units, rather make the viper more versatile, usable both against few expensive units aswell as many small units.
When they acknowledge that they'd like mech to be used more and that they'd like to see mech's hard counter in TvZ to be used more, it sends very mixed messages.
Edit:
On August 16 2013 16:57 kidcrash wrote: Here is the problem with a game containing too many hard counters:
1. Vipers are really good vs mech. 2. Terran knows this so they don't even bother going mech. 3. Since no one goes mech, no one builds vipers.
Its basically a vicious circle which stems from flawed game design. The only way to fix it is to make vipers a little bit less good vs mech while also making them a little better vs bio. Easy fix would be to swap the energy costs; 75 for blinding cloud and 100 for abduct.
What!? How is that a fix? You do realized that abduct is almost never used because blinding cloud just shits over mech so hardcore. Mechs problem isn't abduct, it is blinding cloud.
On August 16 2013 16:57 kidcrash wrote: Here is the problem with a game containing too many hard counters:
1. Vipers are really good vs mech. 2. Terran knows this so they don't even bother going mech. 3. Since no one goes mech, no one builds vipers.
Its basically a vicious circle which stems from flawed game design. The only way to fix it is to make vipers a little bit less good vs mech while also making them a little better vs bio. Easy fix would be to swap the energy costs; 75 for blinding cloud and 100 for abduct.
On August 16 2013 16:57 kidcrash wrote: Here is the problem with a game containing too many hard counters:
1. Vipers are really good vs mech. 2. Terran knows this so they don't even bother going mech. 3. Since no one goes mech, no one builds vipers.
Its basically a vicious circle which stems from flawed game design. The only way to fix it is to make vipers a little bit less good vs mech while also making them a little better vs bio. Easy fix would be to swap the energy costs; 75 for blinding cloud and 100 for abduct.
And swap icons placement for both too. So we will have fungal / blinding cloud on the same hotkey
On August 16 2013 13:25 ETisME wrote: honestly I really hope mech can make a come back. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPn3fNBSxls
We have so few mech games and yet they are probably more entertaining than 90% of bio mine games. only mech games give that zerg swarmy feeling and terran with uber good defensive capacity
Mech is pretty much a done deal in HotS. Aside from upgrade merging there may be some tweaking of transformation servos but that is it. As per David Kim - Blizzard wants to fix mech but the changes are too big for patches and will wait until LotV.
On August 16 2013 16:07 Rabiator wrote: The terran upgrade merger is a really bad thing to do - just as the removal of Siege upgrade was - because it is a) unstylish and b) doesnt buff mech at all.
The removal of siege upgrade did buff mech. Before that it was almost impossible to hold a blink all-in with mech openers. Not that TvP mech openers are safe now but every little bit helps.
On August 16 2013 13:25 ETisME wrote: honestly I really hope mech can make a come back. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPn3fNBSxls
We have so few mech games and yet they are probably more entertaining than 90% of bio mine games. only mech games give that zerg swarmy feeling and terran with uber good defensive capacity
Mech is pretty much a done deal in HotS. Aside from upgrade merging there may be some tweaking of transformation servos but that is it. As per David Kim - Blizzard wants to fix mech but the changes are too big for patches and will wait until LotV.
Ah crap they going to nerf mech even further in LotV?
(Maybe I am a bit pessimistic, but they also entered HotS with as idea boosting mech, they didn't exactly succeed...)
On August 16 2013 16:57 kidcrash wrote: Here is the problem with a game containing too many hard counters:
1. Vipers are really good vs mech. 2. Terran knows this so they don't even bother going mech. 3. Since no one goes mech, no one builds vipers.
Its basically a vicious circle which stems from flawed game design. The only way to fix it is to make vipers a little bit less good vs mech while also making them a little better vs bio. Easy fix would be to swap the energy costs; 75 for blinding cloud and 100 for abduct.
This is the same vicious circle that had the protoss replicator removed. Then T wasnt building siege tanks cause the protoss would replicate them and the supposed unit variety blizz wanted was nowhere to be found, it was even less because of that unit. Somebody should read their history.
On August 16 2013 13:25 ETisME wrote: honestly I really hope mech can make a come back. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPn3fNBSxls
We have so few mech games and yet they are probably more entertaining than 90% of bio mine games. only mech games give that zerg swarmy feeling and terran with uber good defensive capacity
Mech is pretty much a done deal in HotS. Aside from upgrade merging there may be some tweaking of transformation servos but that is it. As per David Kim - Blizzard wants to fix mech but the changes are too big for patches and will wait until LotV.
Ah crap they going to nerf mech even further in LotV?
(Maybe I am a bit pessimistic, but they also entered HotS with as idea boosting mech, they didn't exactly succeed...)
But who could predict that adding a lot of counters and placing all new mech power in two new units could backfire? Hopefully they have learned something from HotS beta.
EPT
