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United Kingdom12042 Posts
On August 16 2013 19:55 MTAC wrote:
Ok cool.
TvZ: Biomech still less viable than biomine, and later on the game, why switch mech if you can switch mass Ravens at the same prices of upgrades?
Mech now, you still need 20 tanks to be agressive midgame, but can't do anything in case of mutas. So you build mostly HB/Thors and have a faster rush into skyterran. Same as it is already now, instead of taking 1h, "mech" games (with BIG underquotes) will take 45 minutes games.
Bioplay (or 4m, it's the same) No change.
TvP: Mech: idem TvZ. Unless that you also need ghosts.
Biomech. Lol... hum. Do i need to explain?
Bioplay. When you have money to search double up armory and add HB. You just better make mass ghosts 3/3. Since HB nerf (a needed one imo) The timing to add HB in your MMM is just so retarded, you need at least 2 factorys + upgrade. That is 2 or 3 more ghosts, nobody takes the choice of Hellbats. Later in the game, mass Ghosts and Vikings is still a better choice than HB. Nothing change there.
TvT: Bio versus mech. The mecher now have the advantage of skyswitch. Going bio or biomech VS mech will turn into an all-in.
Biotank vs biotank. Okay, we have the fear of an opponnent choosing mech (and therefore sky) so who will go biotank ?
Mech vs Mech. ThorsHB deals pretty well with tanklines. My fear? ThorHB into skyterran versus ThorHB into Sky. The only one matchup where mech was still fun to play or interesting to play against will turn like the 2 other ones.
Not that I'm saying you're entirely wrong here, but tank/thor/hellbat beats thor/hellbat any day.
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Not that I'm saying you're entirely wrong here, but tank/thor/hellbat beats thor/hellbat any day.
I know, But Thors/HB + 3 banshee and one raven beats Thor/HB with 4 tanks anyday, It's even cheaper mineralwise and supplywise.
I can be wrong about TvT. The "removals" of bio or biotanks styles of play will hugely depends on the maps, (although i'm convinced we're heading towards a preHB nerf TvT) But i'm pretty sure mech versus mech will heads toward Skyterran and pass by tank-centric styles of play, coz any skytransitions will be even more frightening and powerfull. And as tanks are costly and thors supplywise very costly; the rush to skyterran is just the better thing to do, and therefore defense against sky (thors) more important than defense against ground (tanks)
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On August 16 2013 16:10 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 15:58 NarutO wrote:On August 16 2013 13:44 RaFox17 wrote:On August 16 2013 13:22 Rabiator wrote:On August 16 2013 12:02 convention wrote:On August 16 2013 11:51 Rabiator wrote:On August 16 2013 11:40 convention wrote:On August 16 2013 09:56 Noocta wrote:On August 16 2013 02:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On August 15 2013 23:16 Rabiator wrote:
[quote]
PDD will last until its energy is depleted and it gets shot down by Stalkers.
You are right in that there needs to be a way to counter something, but PDD - just as Battlecruisers or anything with energy - is ridiculously bad in the late game versus Protoss. In case you didnt notice: Feedback is a rather powerful spell which depletes energy AND deals damage. And I thought terran have ghost It's the end problem. Late game protoss is almost impossible to beat without Ghosts, and making ghosts is a hundred time more convenient if you went Bio, so why bother with something else ? In this whole hypothetical scenario, protoss has unlocked all tech trees. He has thrown down extra gateways, has starports, and has robo facilities. Why can't terran put down a few extra techlab-barracks? I mean, who cares if ghosts don't have upgrades, you are using them for snipe and EMP anyway. If you have 5-10 Ghosts you want them to survive and this means UPGRADES and such a huge investment in gas needs damage upgrades as well to be really efficient. Protoss have the easy way because they only have one set of upgrades for all ground units. If you are a Protoss player just try to imagine what you would do if you had to research "Robo upgrades" separately from "Gateway upgrades" ... That scenario isnt so hypothetical btw ... Protoss is getting air upgrades on those tempest, otherwise they do about 0 damage per shot. And you should not be getting weapon upgrades on those ghosts, just armor. You aren't right clicking the HT to kill them, you are sniping. Anyway, the original point of this is that one shouldn't dismiss mech because of tempest (there are plenty of reasons mech sucks vs protoss, tempest is not one of them). Once the HTs are dead the Ghosts can still kill Zealots nicely ... and even better with damage upgrades. I wasnt talking about air upgrades but about two separate ground upgrade sets. On August 16 2013 13:05 usethis2 wrote:
I think the real reason for viper change is either:
1) To give some incentives for Z to build vipers
2) To make the game dramatic.
In the second hypothetical, vipers will be like colossi in that once they come out the pace of game changes dramatically. It often occurs in TvP where T moves out and P is about to have a colossus ready. Or P suddenly tech-switches from templars to colossi.
The first hypo is probably the case, though, in all likelihood. And there is no way a spell caster pops out with full energy. (Remember they proposed much faster prism speed then pretended to "listen" to community by triangulation) Honestly I dont buy the "to make Zerg build X" argument. They are the laziest and stupidest sort of players who dont even get burrow most of the time even when that upgrade could save a lot of their units or make their attacks more powerful. Zergs already have to build the fewest buildings of all three races and that should give them enough resources to get those upgrades or to invest in Vipers. The second argument is even more ridiculous, because drama comes from "close calls" and giving Vipers max energy from the start gives them too much power. So terrans can´t possibly invest into some upgrades while their army is mostly minerals? And terran player saying that other the players of the other race are lazy and stupid while terran is the only race with NO need to transition cause you have your late game army from the start. As you don´t play zerg i have to tell you that burrow is useful but staying alive against constant 4m parade push is more important and to do that we need gas for banes. (you know, the green stuff. You use it on upgrades and.. Well upgrades yeah.) First thing people fail to realize about Terran: We don't stay on biomine / bio / whatever because we want and can, we do it because we have NO TRANSITION THAT MATCHES T3 of the other races. Deal with it, learn it, accept it and try to understand it. If you give me a viable transition that is powerful enough to withstand lategame OR not as powerful but viable as it doesn't t ake ages, then please do so. High tier of other races can either be increased in speed (chrono) or build in higher numbers to make up for long-building times without adding infrastructure beforehand. Terran would need to either add multiple factories or starports + the fusion core to start transitioning and frankly that transition is not just not on par, but also takes a long time, so please don't tell us "we don't NEED" to transition. We simply can't. Second thing people fail to realize about Terran: Zergs are always greedy for more gas because they can actually utilize it! Give a Zerg 2000 gas - woohoo Mutalisks! - woohoo 3-3 upgrades + Hive tech/upgrades! - woohoo Infestors! - woohoo Banelings! - woohoo Brood Lords! - woohoo Ultralisks! Zerg gets too much gas = GG Give a Terran 2000 gas... - ...Reapers? they suck past 4 minutes - ...Ravens? Maybe, has potential, but there is simply too much time needed to transition, and they simply aren't good enough to be worth it. - ...Banshees? Lategame? I suppose...? - ...Battlecruisers? Erm, they suck. AND they take too much time to build. - ...Ghosts? YES... before the Snipe nerf. - ...Thors? Nope, Roaches and Lings deal with them too well. - ...Tanks? Hahaha TvZ mech... you're funny. That pretty much leaves... Mine/Marauder/Medivac.
Few thing terrans fail to realize about zerg: You can´t just drop few units and destroy their production, burrow is not the answer against 4M, we can´t currently get the gas to get that T3 super-army (in the top level of play) which is needed to win against 4M. you also say that get on top of terran production. That usually means that the game is allready won when we get there. You rarely see a match where terrans eco is in a good condition and zerg goes against the production with huge number of units(which are needed to do damage and get to the base). Why is this? Cause terran can just walk into zergs base and kill him in base race or kill the defence and then kill him in a base race or kill the army that is coming from your base while throwing down mules and landing your production.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
On August 16 2013 20:45 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +Not that I'm saying you're entirely wrong here, but tank/thor/hellbat beats thor/hellbat any day. I know, But Thors/HB + 3 banshee and one raven beats Thor/HB with 4 tanks anyday, It's even cheaper mineralwise and supplywise. I can be wrong about TvT. The "removals" of bio or biotanks styles of play will hugely depends on the maps, (although i'm convinced we're heading towards a preHB nerf TvT) But i'm pretty sure mech versus mech will heads toward Skyterran and pass by tank-centric styles of play, coz any skytransitions will be even more frightening and powerfull. And as tanks are costly and thors supplywise very costly; the rush to skyterran is just the better thing to do, and therefore defense against sky (thors) more important than defense against ground (tanks)
You need tanks against bio, if you don't have tanks marauders just kill you and the skytransition won't be powerful unless you can get all your upgrades which means you're going to need tanks to stay alive to do it. Rushing to skyterran without upgrades means you die to pure marine haha.
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You need tanks against bio, if you don't have tanks marauders just kill you and the skytransition won't be powerful unless you can get all your upgrades which means you're going to need tanks to stay alive to do it. Rushing to skyterran without upgrades means you die to pure marine haha.
Ye, but, who will go bio? If the mecher have the advantage in the skytransition, going bio means you're practically all-in. As i've said, i can be wrong on that, it'll depends hugely on the maps, but i don't see a lot of Terrans on ladder as well on tournaments risking the bioplay when one of his best advantages is passing away.
What the point in transitioning into sky with 0/3 upgrades against 3/3 one? Especially since the mecher will need air-to-air in this case when most of yours will be air to ground at first (banshee/BC)
So what we're risking is:
- Mech vs mech all games, coz no one want to risk being bio against mech.
- Since air units gets better alongside your mech units. Ground to ground units gets weaker. Ground to air more essential.
- So Thor/HB with 2 or 3 tanks early to defend into skyterran.
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So much theorycrafting in this thread.
Is anyone actually playing the test map/ streaming?
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On August 16 2013 20:03 Bahajinbo wrote:
Wow, if the viper change really comes I will quit SC2.
yup. I might not play too until they will fix it again.
I kinda get why ppl want energy buff (I rather have consume buff :D) but buff itself looks 'weird'
how about reduction of mana cost of blinding cloud? 75?
Edit: I'm not really saying an idea. I just don't want that buff even though I will get benefit from it as a zerg
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Viper energy could be good, kinda like in bw, the terran push then a defiler pop and can cloud instantly and turn the fight upside down. Now zergs can make vipers and have enough for 2 clouds. Also I think they should buff the consume, 20 seconds for 50 energy for 200 building HP seems too low perhaps ?
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Its really hard to test this when I played 10 platinums and below last night T_T
umm but from what i trolled with.
viiper energy full energy seems a little strong. Maybe 75%, not full. I made 12 vipers and binding cloud for dayyyyyyyyyyys.
Just make them lair tech.
problem solved
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On August 16 2013 23:17 Eggi wrote:
Its really hard to test this when I played 10 platinums and below last night T_T
umm but from what i trolled with.
viiper energy full energy seems a little strong. Maybe 75%, not full. I made 12 vipers and binding cloud for dayyyyyyyyyyys.
Just make them lair tech.
problem solved
You know what they say, don't fix a problem if there is none. :-)
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On August 16 2013 23:15 MrCon wrote:
Viper energy could be good, kinda like in bw, the terran push then a defiler pop and can cloud instantly and turn the fight upside down. Now zergs can make vipers and have enough for 2 clouds. Also I think they should buff the consume, 20 seconds for 50 energy for 200 building HP seems too low perhaps ?
Yup. but the difference is that
Viper SOMEHOW comes out as 200 full energy.
Defiler required 1 sacrifices for 50energy each (the lowest is threezerglings to gain instant full energy. 50+50x3)
I really hate blizzard when they don't explain or give lore to changes. like two DT becomes normal archorn as 2 HT 
Edit: that's why I rather want consume buff if blizzard wants mana buff
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lol, i just got smashed with a 14 minute 200 hydra/roach + full energy viper timing going mech, spread out tanks, scv on repair, 3rd walled off with depots..
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On August 16 2013 23:17 Eggi wrote:
Its really hard to test this when I played 10 platinums and below last night T_T
umm but from what i trolled with.
viiper energy full energy seems a little strong. Maybe 75%, not full. I made 12 vipers and binding cloud for dayyyyyyyyyyys.
Just make them lair tech.
problem solved
If you want viper in lair tech, you should make viper with
1. limited skills (unlocks by hive tech)
or
2. nerfed skills
viper in lair tech seems too broken.
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what? the viper change barely change anything on ZvT unless you are playing against a mech player maybe.
But players ALWAYS engage with full energy viper against mech anyway, the change just makes zerg hit the timing earlier but since viper is available in hive, the minor difference isn't that big at all.
(you still ain't gonna use viper against bio mine)
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On August 17 2013 00:16 ETisME wrote:
what? the viper change barely change anything on ZvT unless you are playing against a mech player maybe.
But players ALWAYS engage with full energy viper against mech anyway, the change just makes zerg hit the timing earlier but since viper is available in hive, the minor difference isn't that big at all.
(you still ain't gonna use viper against bio mine)
1) Full-energy vipers will allow them to cast more blinding clouds from the start. I'e twice as much blinding clouds
2) This can become viable versus bio, because there will be twice more clouds
3) What does this means? Vipers were buffed against bio a bit
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On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f...
comparing vipers to ht's is ridiculous haha
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On August 17 2013 00:26 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 00:16 ETisME wrote:
what? the viper change barely change anything on ZvT unless you are playing against a mech player maybe.
But players ALWAYS engage with full energy viper against mech anyway, the change just makes zerg hit the timing earlier but since viper is available in hive, the minor difference isn't that big at all.
(you still ain't gonna use viper against bio mine) 1) Full-energy vipers will allow them to cast more blinding clouds from the start. I'e twice as much blinding clouds 2) This can become viable versus bio, because there will be twice more clouds 3) What does this means? Vipers were buffed against bio a bit
it's certainly a buff but barely change ZvT because right now zerg is struggling to go hive.
There is no reason why not to go for more ultras or infestors instead of viper if you can ever get to hive safely
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These changes seem so silly to me because Zerg has trouble getting to hive tech. Once they're there it's fine. Vipers are designed to let Zerg hit hive tech safely...but once they're there they don't need vipers. Blizzard has got the whole situation ass-backwards.
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keep this overseer speed buff, lower widow mine hp by 10/15.
There tvz is solved.
Don't fucking ruin zvp with those vipers jesus, its probably the most balanced matchup right now.
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EPT
