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On September 05 2013 06:05 11B wrote:Show nested quote +Brood war is a different game, a game where hydralisks have a different role and dragoons outrange marines in bunkers when they have range I think you're missing the point ^^. If they want a more balanced game it would only seem fair, at least to me, to have all support units start at Range 6. If not, then make it so Stalkers/Marauders need to research a Range upgrade as well. And Dragoons don't outrange Marines in bunkers if both races get the Range upgrade. So I'm missing the point of your post anyways?
Ok, first off, this discussion might want to go to the Designed balance discussion thread.
And second, hydras are different units, have very high DPS compared to stalkers and maunders and zerg production makes all their units less effective at a whole. And not all units are balanced equally and have the exact same stats or ranges as their counter parts(if we can use that word) in the other races.
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On August 18 2013 13:00 BrassMonkey27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 12:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 18 2013 12:54 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On August 18 2013 12:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2013 13:26 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 17 2013 07:22 jonich0n wrote:On August 17 2013 05:36 VayneAuthority wrote:
keep this overseer speed buff, lower widow mine hp by 10/15.
There tvz is solved.
Don't fucking ruin zvp with those vipers jesus, its probably the most balanced matchup right now. I kinda like where you're going with that. Oddly enough... I agree with this sentiment. It has always bugged me that Widow mines are 90hp, 5 range, and 40 splash dmg vs all without costing the mine to attack while banelings are 30hp, melee range, and 20 vs all (35 only vs light) for a mere 25 minerals less. Who the hell decided that 90 fucking hp was a good idea on a unit as powerful as the widow mine? That number is so high that ridiculous comparisons like 5 Roaches or 6 Stalkers can't kill a Widow Mine before it burrows. Given the way the unit plays, I can see it being a little beefier than banelings, that's fine, but 90 fucking hp? really? That's more hp than a Hydralisk for 25/25 less cost! Hard to compare costs directly when the income is different for each races, etc. So its cheaper and easier to acquire due to the speed of mules mining. I think its a fair comparison. Not to mention the fact that 3 widow mines pretty much have the same effect as 10 banelings and they can reload within 40s and aren't kite-able within 5 range. Hmm. You can't make the comparison at all. Why not? Aside from the volatility of the shot itself, I do not see much of a downside to getting widow mines. There are simply not many situations where building them isn't a good choice.
Widow mines are good, don't get me wrong. But they are a support unit. They take time to burrow, they splash friendly units, they can't kill a base, they fire once and then are very susceptible to damage. They have decent HP in the early game, but late game they die quickly to big mobs, they also get destroyed easily versus splash damage(HT, infestor, collo, tanks).
They also take more APM than units like banelings. You must position them well, burrow and unburrow often and quickly. Banelings are 1a murder death kill.
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People seem to be digressing..........
Ok then, let's keep it simple. Can anyone tell me, or rather, Give me a good reason why Hydra's have to pay for their Range upgrade while the other races do not?
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On September 05 2013 06:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 06:05 11B wrote:Brood war is a different game, a game where hydralisks have a different role and dragoons outrange marines in bunkers when they have range I think you're missing the point ^^. If they want a more balanced game it would only seem fair, at least to me, to have all support units start at Range 6. If not, then make it so Stalkers/Marauders need to research a Range upgrade as well. And Dragoons don't outrange Marines in bunkers if both races get the Range upgrade. So I'm missing the point of your post anyways? Ok, first off, this discussion might want to go to the Designed balance discussion thread. And second, hydras are different units, have very high DPS compared to stalkers and maunders and zerg production makes all their units less effective at a whole. And not all units are balanced equally and have the exact same stats or ranges as their counter parts(if we can use that word) in the other races.
I thought warp-gate made protoss units less effective. While "less effective" is less effective?
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On September 05 2013 06:29 11B wrote:
People seem to be digressing..........
Ok then, let's keep it simple. Can anyone tell me, or rather, Give me a good reason why Hydra's have to pay for their Range upgrade while the other races do not?
Because "balance"
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On September 05 2013 06:31 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 06:29 11B wrote:
People seem to be digressing..........
Ok then, let's keep it simple. Can anyone tell me, or rather, Give me a good reason why Hydra's have to pay for their Range upgrade while the other races do not?
Because "balance"
Would it be semantics if i would say "myth" ? 
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On September 05 2013 06:29 11B wrote:
People seem to be digressing..........
Ok then, let's keep it simple. Can anyone tell me, or rather, Give me a good reason why Hydra's have to pay for their Range upgrade while the other races do not?
Their DPS is crazy for their supply value and the upgrade gives people a chance to respond and get the correct unit out to deal with them. They also shoot both air and ground, so they are all purpose. Its like marines starting with combat shields or zealots starting with charge.
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They also take more APM
I find this horribly false. Givin the very delicate situation that 1 single WM can kill 40-60 clumped up zerglings/banlings it's much more time consuming for the Zerg player. Or rather, a Zerg player needs to invest a lot more game time dealing with mines than the Terran player does in deploying, uburrowing, re-deploying......kiting marines, etc.
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Well on this map T against colossus feels much better than before,Hellbat and viking share the same attack so its an easier upgrade pick.
Ultra feels a bit strong but tbh i always sucked vs them so i can't say.
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Their DPS is crazy for their supply value
I disagree with this too. Even with DPS 1 Stalker beats 1 Hydralisk w/out range (and w/ Hydralisk range the Hydra wins with 3 Health....not overwhelming). We don't get Hydra's till after Lair so that gives the opponent quite some time and once Colossus come in Hydra's won't work w/out viper. So yea, there's a small window where Hydra's can do a good job, but even in that small window they aren't overpowering by any means.
And versus Terran, once you throw in Medivacs, which come pretty quick then Hydras will get owned w/out Bling or Infestor support. I'm not crying a horrible Hydra imbalance......
But I do think it provide a lot more game balance by providing Hydra's with Range, just like every other Races support units. I'm finding a hard time no one else feels this way?
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On September 05 2013 06:41 11B wrote:I disagree with this too. Even with DPS 1 Stalker beats 1 Hydralisk w/out range (and w/ Hydralisk range the Hydra wins with 3 Health....not overwhelming). We don't get Hydra's till after Lair so that gives the opponent quite some time and once Colossus come in Hydra's won't work w/out viper. So yea, there's a small window where Hydra's can do a good job, but even in that small window they aren't overpowering by any means. And versus Terran, once you throw in Medivacs, which come pretty quick then Hydras will get owned w/out Bling or Infestor support. I'm not crying a horrible Hydra imbalance...... But I do think it provide a lot more game balance by providing Hydra's with Range, just like every other Races support units. I'm finding a hard time no one else feels this way?
I disagree, I think their DPS is crazy and if they had six range to start, there would be a whole bunch of crazy timing attacks they could do to catch protoss off guard. They trade super well with stalkers at equal numbers, since they have the DPS of 2 marines and longer range(if they started with 6). But we can agree to disagree on the subject.
But this has nothing to do with the test map, which as passed. You should really take this to the dedicated balance discussion thread.
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On September 05 2013 06:41 11B wrote:I disagree with this too. Even with DPS 1 Stalker beats 1 Hydralisk w/out range (and w/ Hydralisk range the Hydra wins with 3 Health....not overwhelming). We don't get Hydra's till after Lair so that gives the opponent quite some time and once Colossus come in Hydra's won't work w/out viper. So yea, there's a small window where Hydra's can do a good job, but even in that small window they aren't overpowering by any means. And versus Terran, once you throw in Medivacs, which come pretty quick then Hydras will get owned w/out Bling or Infestor support. I'm not crying a horrible Hydra imbalance...... But I do think it provide a lot more game balance by providing Hydra's with Range, just like every other Races support units. I'm finding a hard time no one else feels this way?
For the record, my favorite suggested fix to this has been to leave everything about the Hydra s it is, but make the upgrade +2 range instead of +1.
Hydras are a terrible unit right now, but they are the only viable GtA unit that Zerg has for big battles. 7 range would allow them to engage things like clumped void rays flying over a group of zealots or a sizeable muta flock more effectively, I think they would be much better in the ZvT MU because 7 range hydras vs 5 range Marines might actually make Terran think about charging into a fight for once, and hydras don't have blink, medivacs, or really anything that gives them a lot of late-game viability and utility. They're just... kinda... there... And now Zerg has to rely on them more than ever before.
I hate the current hydralisk. It is an insult to its name, and it is a weak justification for not giving Zerg meaningful air defense.
If Blizzard refuses to give them a better hp/cost ratio, at least let them engage from a further distance than the average combat unit.
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On September 05 2013 06:41 11B wrote:I disagree with this too. Even with DPS 1 Stalker beats 1 Hydralisk w/out range (and w/ Hydralisk range the Hydra wins with 3 Health....not overwhelming). We don't get Hydra's till after Lair so that gives the opponent quite some time and once Colossus come in Hydra's won't work w/out viper. So yea, there's a small window where Hydra's can do a good job, but even in that small window they aren't overpowering by any means. And versus Terran, once you throw in Medivacs, which come pretty quick then Hydras will get owned w/out Bling or Infestor support. I'm not crying a horrible Hydra imbalance...... But I do think it provide a lot more game balance by providing Hydra's with Range, just like every other Races support units. I'm finding a hard time no one else feels this way?
stop comparing units 1 per 1 it's rediculously stupid. Balance is about the matchup as a whole, at the moment hydra's are doing relatively fine as they are actually quite good in ZvP and have some functionality in ZvZ too.
Giving the range upgrade for free makes Roach/hydra/viper or just hydra/ling timings in ZvP potentially a bit much. The hydra in itself is not a great unit but the versatility and everything make it quite potent in ZvP at the moment.
As for overall suggested changes so far, they are just shitty. Doesn't do enough to make mech work and doesn't even do so in a fun way. Just buff tanks for fuck sake, most popular unit there is hardly sees play... David kim...
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On September 05 2013 06:50 Jermstuddog wrote:
For the record, my favorite suggested fix to this has been to leave everything about the Hydra s it is, but make the upgrade +2 range instead of +1.
I actually really, really like that idea.
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On September 05 2013 06:50 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 06:41 11B wrote:Their DPS is crazy for their supply value I disagree with this too. Even with DPS 1 Stalker beats 1 Hydralisk w/out range (and w/ Hydralisk range the Hydra wins with 3 Health....not overwhelming). We don't get Hydra's till after Lair so that gives the opponent quite some time and once Colossus come in Hydra's won't work w/out viper. So yea, there's a small window where Hydra's can do a good job, but even in that small window they aren't overpowering by any means. And versus Terran, once you throw in Medivacs, which come pretty quick then Hydras will get owned w/out Bling or Infestor support. I'm not crying a horrible Hydra imbalance...... But I do think it provide a lot more game balance by providing Hydra's with Range, just like every other Races support units. I'm finding a hard time no one else feels this way? stop comparing units 1 per 1 it's rediculously stupid. Balance is about the matchup as a whole, at the moment hydra's are doing relatively fine as they are actually quite good in ZvP and have some functionality in ZvZ too. Giving the range upgrade for free makes Roach/hydra/viper or just hydra/ling timings in ZvP potentially a bit much. The hydra in itself is not a great unit but the versatility and everything make it quite potent in ZvP at the moment. As for overall suggested changes so far, they are just shitty. Doesn't do enough to make mech work and doesn't even do so in a fun way. Just buff tanks for fuck sake, most popular unit there is hardly sees play... David kim is such a retard.
Unfortunately you can't just "buff tanks" and be done with it, because just tank based mech is still very, very static and boring, you'd need to redesign the game almost from the ground up to make mech not only fun but also functional.
The first thing that needs to be altered is that smart fire is removed or at the very least disabled on the siege tank, and consequently their damage buffed in some way.
Why? Because then it gives tank players way, way more incentives to properly position tanks, not only because its harder to break the tank line but also because it would do more damage. Currently with smart fire you can't just bait out all the tanks to fire and waste their shots on a single zealot, so a layer of dynamics is already removed from the composition.
Like, think of it, once smart fire is disabled positioning matters way more, too clumped and your tanks take too much damage and waste shots on just 1 unit, too spread and they are more vulnerable and do less damage, just right and they do great damage while being hard to break, there is more micro involved as well, more back and forth action from players trying to bait tank shots and then rush in, or the terran player himself having to manually focus fire important targets to not waste tank shots.
Then terrain mechanics need to be changed, you'll want to bring back proper high ground advantage to have more viable points of contention, the pathfinding engine might also need reworking, at least so you can actually build proper formations and move them out and not have them die to tank fire, or for the tanks themselves to ball up or break apart.
Then you have to worry about how you want to buff the tank's damage. Buff the aoe too much and its too good vs small units and bad vs large ones, buff its single target damage and you get the reverse, buff its overall base damage and you get strong tank based all-ins.
I think the best way to buff their damage is make them get 5+5 damage per upgrade, so that they end up at 50 damage vs everything and 65 vs armored, that way they actually don't impact the early game but also become significantly more powerful when you need them, and they also deal good damage vs everything. Maybe also re-work the damage distribution on shells so they 1 shot more then only 3 lings, however with a damage increase like what I outlined to that won't be necessary.
Then, all the supporting mech units need to be reworked as well, the thor needs to lose a ton of its base damage and get stronger anti-air. The hellbat needs to lose all or nearly all its aoe damage. This is because the tank now becomes the primary source of damage and hellbats only need to exist to buffer damage, and thors only need to exist to counter air to ground weapons. Hell, with the existence of PDD you might even need to tone down hellbat health. Helions can remain the same because they are fast, nimble and fragile raider units and mech needs them so they can be dynamic and on the map doing stuff while the tank line is slowly creeping forward.
Ok so now, when you boil it down, the number of changes needed to make mech both fun to watch and to play, and to make it viable, are so numerous, and have such far reaching consequences, that you'd need to wait at least till an expansion (Legacy of the Void is the last one), and even then there is no guarantee Blizz will go trough with them.
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stop comparing units 1 per 1 it's rediculously stupid.
I'll post the link when I find it ^^....... a random Korean pro-gaming house (forget the exact name of team..and Yes, it's translated lol) making similar comparisons as myself. Just because a Korean team, or at least some of its members think as I do doesn't make my point of view right by any means........but I KNOW i'm not the only one. And it's certainly not ridiculously stupid. Its quite sane ^^.
For the record, my favorite suggested fix to this has been to leave everything about the Hydra s it is, but make the upgrade +2 range instead of +1.
I actually really, really like that idea.
Well I think that would actually be IMBA ,,,,,, and definitely much more powerful than my suggestion. But I like it :D.
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On September 05 2013 07:38 11B wrote:I'll post the link when I find it ^^....... a random Korean pro-gaming house (forget the exact name of team..and Yes, it's translated lol) making similar comparisons as myself. Just because a Korean team, or at least some of its members think as I do doesn't make my point of view right by any means........but I KNOW i'm not the only one. And it's certainly not ridiculously stupid. Its quite sane ^^. Show nested quote +For the record, my favorite suggested fix to this has been to leave everything about the Hydra s it is, but make the upgrade +2 range instead of +1.
I actually really, really like that idea. Well I think that would actually be IMBA ,,,,,, and definitely much more powerful than my suggestion. But I like it :D.
Well since zerg is the macro race, units shouldnt necessary win in 1 vs 1, but they should win thanks to the fast rebuild of the army
But stronger hydra could be quite cool to see. They are just not as scary as, i'd say, Swarmhost, muta or infestors. And are being countered rather easily by chargelot/stalkers.
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On September 05 2013 07:41 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 07:38 11B wrote:stop comparing units 1 per 1 it's rediculously stupid. I'll post the link when I find it ^^....... a random Korean pro-gaming house (forget the exact name of team..and Yes, it's translated lol) making similar comparisons as myself. Just because a Korean team, or at least some of its members think as I do doesn't make my point of view right by any means........but I KNOW i'm not the only one. And it's certainly not ridiculously stupid. Its quite sane ^^. For the record, my favorite suggested fix to this has been to leave everything about the Hydra s it is, but make the upgrade +2 range instead of +1.
I actually really, really like that idea. Well I think that would actually be IMBA ,,,,,, and definitely much more powerful than my suggestion. But I like it :D. Well since zerg is the macro race, units shouldnt necessary win in 1 vs 1, but they should win thanks to the fast rebuild of the army But stronger hydra could be quite cool to see. They are just not as scary as, i'd say, Swarmhost, muta or infestors. And are being countered rather easily by chargelot/stalkers.
That's a stupid and outdated concept. There is no once macro race, no one cheese race, no one defensive race. The way they all go about, fighting, defending and macroing is different, that's asymmetric balance, that doesn't relegate one race to one role or another, it just makes the way they go about doing their things very different.
I wish people would stop thinking in these archaic concepts, based on what composition one goes for a Terran can be as aggressive and in your face as a zerg (4M) or as defensive and turtly as a protoss (Mech), a protoss can be as obnoxious and cheesey and harass oriented as he wants (GW, timings, SG, DTs, WP play) or he can be as turtly as possible (skytoss compositions), zerg can be as explosive and economical as he desires with various hatch first and triple hatch builds, or he be as sneaky, slimy and all-inish as he wants (bane busts, roach busts, nydus etc).
You can't have asymetric balance the way you did in BW, where once race had to and could get on more bases and have more workers and relied on making and dumping more armies at the enemy, because in SC2 there is an optimal number of workers per base and an optimal number of bases to have.
Within the confines of that economy all races must function, thus, while doing things differently, they must ultimately still reach a similar goal.
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Holy shit, Ultralisks are going to be 10% harder to kill?
I think I just soiled myself....
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If Blizzard makes the Hydralisk +2 range upgrade, I´m coming back to Starcraft 2 from Dota. Its a promise.
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EPT
