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On August 13 2013 06:21 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 06:18 kochanfe wrote:
The Viper buff is a terrible idea, the mech+air upgrade buff is interesting, and the overseer speed buff is pretty okay. I'd really like to see them address the mothership core though. Perhaps making it start with less energy, making time warp slightly less strong, and making the nexus-cannon require 125 energy so you can't throw down two at once. I feel like the mothership core SHOULD be in the game but is simply too strong atm, and I'm a little surprised this isn't one of the main things Blizzard is looking at... The solution for the mscore is very simple: give it paper health. I'm fine with it being a sick defensive unit, but that same unit shouldn't be able to be so good in aggression. If you are aggressive with it, fine, but then there needs to be a risk.
it already has paper health...
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On August 13 2013 06:22 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 06:21 Snowbear wrote:On August 13 2013 06:18 kochanfe wrote:
The Viper buff is a terrible idea, the mech+air upgrade buff is interesting, and the overseer speed buff is pretty okay. I'd really like to see them address the mothership core though. Perhaps making it start with less energy, making time warp slightly less strong, and making the nexus-cannon require 125 energy so you can't throw down two at once. I feel like the mothership core SHOULD be in the game but is simply too strong atm, and I'm a little surprised this isn't one of the main things Blizzard is looking at... The solution for the mscore is very simple: give it paper health. I'm fine with it being a sick defensive unit, but that same unit shouldn't be able to be so good in aggression. If you are aggressive with it, fine, but then there needs to be a risk. it already has paper health...
Has it? That's why these blinkstalker + mscore allins are so strong, right? The mscore has too much health.
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The viper buff does make some sort of sense. A weakness zerg has in ZvT is their inability to tech to Hive without becoming vulnerable, the reason is that they first need to build the ultralisk den and research chitinous plating. If you could tech to Hive and instantly have a new resource available in full energy vipers then it could allow for an easier transition.
However, giving them full energy right from the start seems rather problematic to me. You are supposed to nurture spell casters, they start out weak but if you protect them until they have sufficient energy they will repay you for your investment. There is a reason that Khaydarin Amulet was removed and that Blizzard has expressed public concern about the +25 energy upgrade for infestors. And vipers already have ways to gain energy quickly, for negligible cost, but at least it takes some time and there is a trade-off, so it seems a highly unnecessary change to me.
With regards to the overseer, I wonder if they will be fast enough to keep up with mutalisks. If so that will be greatly helpful for mutalisk harass. And overseers are an essential ingredient in dealing with widow mines, it certainly can't hurt the zerg to improve the unit. Personally I would have gone with more hit points, since it seems like all Blizzard does these days is to give speed boosts to units, but perhaps it's better this way since they can use it to keep up with the more rapid mutalisks. And honestly you can encourage more overseer use by making contaminate cheaper, with the added benefit of introducing new tactics for the zerg player.
I do wonder whether this will be enough to 'fix' TvZ. I don't think the match-up is beyond saving, it seems to me like there are a few timing windows that are too easy to exploit for both the races, which usually means that some minor balance tweaks can be very significant. The mech upgrade change seems to have a lot of potential to fundamentally imbalance the match-up, on the other hand, since it's difficult to predict the power of future new-found mech transitions. And it'll be fun for TvT...
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Don't know why they keep insisting on band-aid solutions to fix mech instead of giving mech users some viable way to actually fend off Vipers and not make them basically a hard counter. The way it is now, it's like BW TvZ if Terran didn't have Science Vessels
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Buff to mech is HUGE when you think about it. You can hit a very nice mech timing since you only need to research two upgrades instead of 3. There is also a much easier transition to sky terran in TvT so we don't have a much longer stalemate period if both players go mech, and the mech player doesn't have to play turtle terran so long if another goes bio.
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On August 13 2013 06:25 wozzot wrote:
Don't know why they keep insisting on band-aid solutions to fix mech instead of giving Terran some viable way to actually fend off Vipers and not make them basically a hard counter. The way it is now, it's like BW TvZ if Terran didn't have Science Vessels
They should totally make ravens super fast and give them irradiate. That would be fun.
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On August 13 2013 06:25 wozzot wrote:
Don't know why they keep insisting on band-aid solutions to fix mech instead of giving mech users some viable way to actually fend off Vipers and not make them basically a hard counter. The way it is now, it's like BW TvZ if Terran didn't have Science Vessels
You can't shoot them with vikings? I mean, thats how you hold off colossi.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
I don't get why people are saying the viper change is a nerf to mech. They never pushed without full energy so what's the difference?
I'm a full mech player so I know what I'm talking about with this.
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 13 2013 06:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 06:25 wozzot wrote:
Don't know why they keep insisting on band-aid solutions to fix mech instead of giving mech users some viable way to actually fend off Vipers and not make them basically a hard counter. The way it is now, it's like BW TvZ if Terran didn't have Science Vessels You can't shoot them with vikings? I mean, thats how you hold off colossi.
Vikings aren't really a reasonable transition because you don't build up a viper count slowly like you build up a colossus count.
edit: @qikz: it makes viper/roach/hydra timings incredibly strong, much more so than now. Additionally, respawning more vipers already with full energy speeds up any follow up attack.
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I play toss but it seems silly to me how vulnerable Zerg detection is. Overseers should get a HP boost.
Mines seem too strong against Zerg but I have no idea how that should be fixed. Swarm hosts should just be removed from the game but that's not going to happen.
All three mothership core spells are too strong as well. Nexus cannon and recall are obvious, and time warp can make a mockery of a terran army when combined with forcefields.
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On August 13 2013 06:25 shockaslim wrote:
Buff to mech is HUGE when you think about it. You can hit a very nice mech timing since you only need to research two upgrades instead of 3. There is also a much easier transition to sky terran in TvT so we don't have a much longer stalemate period if both players go mech, and the mech player doesn't have to play turtle terran so long if another goes bio.
It won't change the mech timings. The timings will be the same, and with the same strength. It just gives you a better air transition, that's all.
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On August 13 2013 06:27 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 06:26 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 06:25 wozzot wrote:
Don't know why they keep insisting on band-aid solutions to fix mech instead of giving mech users some viable way to actually fend off Vipers and not make them basically a hard counter. The way it is now, it's like BW TvZ if Terran didn't have Science Vessels You can't shoot them with vikings? I mean, thats how you hold off colossi. Vikings aren't really a reasonable transition because you don't build up a viper count slowly like you build up a colossus count. edit: @qikz: it makes viper/roach/hydra timings incredibly strong, much more so than now. Additionally, respawning more vipers already with full energy speeds up any follow up attack.
If you are upgrading the vikings, you don't really need that many to zone them out. Really about 6-8 will almost one shot a viper with reasonable upgrades.
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Blizzard really loves to make everything faster. Medivacs, Mutalisks, Warp Prisms and now Overseers.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah but viper based attacks can come as early as 12/13 minutes (i've been on the receiving end of many of them already). Mech can't have vikings at that timing.
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On August 13 2013 05:33 mburke0005 wrote:
dear blizzard,
stop making things so fucking fast (namely zerg units, protoss warp-ins, mules, medivac speed boosts, chronoboost, injects, and other accelerative processes.)
it makes the game way worse and lowers the skill ceiling. in addition it makes games less entertaining and diverse.
the overseer buff is another one of those things.
signed,
everybody
I honestly can't tell if you're kidding or not. =\
Making things faster increases the skill ceiling if anything..
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Btw, I used to have a somewhat ridiculous balance idea which I still have fond feelings for: since terran is so bad at core bio with mech support (outside of mines since they don't benefit from upgrades I think), they could have some of the higher tech (i.e. not mines/hellions) factory units start out with better stats but have upgrades be less rewarding. This way you could mix in some hellbats to help versus a mass zealot army in TvP without having to deal with upgrades so much. Of course it would have seemed rather silly to suggest buffing hellbats a few months ago, and maybe making upgrades inconsistent is a dangerous road to venture on, but I think that on some level it's a better change than Blizzard's new mech upgrade change. Yes, you can get some viking upgrades but you're still not going to transition into mech when starting out as bio, so it's mostly going to benefit air builds, which I personally find turtle-ish and obnoxious, but oh well.
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On August 13 2013 06:31 Mistakes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 05:33 mburke0005 wrote:
dear blizzard,
stop making things so fucking fast (namely zerg units, protoss warp-ins, mules, medivac speed boosts, chronoboost, injects, and other accelerative processes.)
it makes the game way worse and lowers the skill ceiling. in addition it makes games less entertaining and diverse.
the overseer buff is another one of those things.
signed,
everybody I honestly can't tell if you're kidding or not. =\ Making things faster increases the skill ceiling if anything..
Then let's make everything even faster again.
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On August 13 2013 06:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 06:13 Judicator wrote:On August 13 2013 04:37 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 04:30 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 13 2013 04:28 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f... Oh its fine, they don't have storm. Lets talk about Hellbats and vikings upgrading as one. That's all fine and dandy, but Vipers will still be fucking amazing the instant they hatch. No other unit starts will full energy, I don't understand they're thinking. That’s valid, but they need to go the Dota 2 route of balance. “Lets make it totally fucked up and then pull it back from there. Why? Because people will use it if its fucking awesome and that’s what we want.” When you are measuring how awesome you want a unit to be, you have to start with the unit at full awesome and pull it back. Plus: I want to see the game where 5 of those fuckers hatch and get slapped down with feedbacks instantly. That shit would be dope at fuck. Is this a joke? Icefrog is notorious among players for being bad at balance for oh the last 8 years. He's done a lot of things right, but balance not one of them. No, I don't hear it from anyone who matters(aka, not some pub on NA dota who thinks he can design games better) complaining about balancing the game. The last patch was very well received and was filled with some many dumb buffs it was awesome. People are still figuring out stuff to do with it.
You haven't been around for that long then. There's a pretty long list of changes that should have never happened, and a lot of the changes that ended up being put into place was suggested in beta before the original changes were added to the game. You are welcome to take it to PM since this isn't the thread to discuss this.
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Northern Ireland26033 Posts
On August 13 2013 06:31 Mistakes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 05:33 mburke0005 wrote:
dear blizzard,
stop making things so fucking fast (namely zerg units, protoss warp-ins, mules, medivac speed boosts, chronoboost, injects, and other accelerative processes.)
it makes the game way worse and lowers the skill ceiling. in addition it makes games less entertaining and diverse.
the overseer buff is another one of those things.
signed,
everybody I honestly can't tell if you're kidding or not. =\ Making things faster increases the skill ceiling if anything..
Perhaps, it also adds a bit of volatility imo. I genuinely feel things are in danger of being a clusterfuck if Blizzard continue to make all these fast, potentially devastating units zipping all over the place.
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EPT
