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On August 10 2013 20:07 Green_25 wrote:
Make it harder to play. Get rid of the worker tabs and shit like that.
Starcraft should be the niche game, and hold the title of 'toughest game'. Thats its niche, always been that way. Since HOTS blizzard decided to go half and half, making it slightly more accessible like LOL but getting stuck in the middle, so all it did was anger old school starcraft fans while LOL players continued playng LOL.
Essentially I don't want or expect Starcraft to ever become 'mainstream'. If you dumb it down all you do is alienate your niche audience without really gaining anything since there are other games out there which do what you are aiming for much better.
Also fuck team games in starcraft. That shit is for fun, not esports. This is the 1v1 game bud, sorry. I doubt I'd be watching if this wasn't 1v1.
If you don't cater to non-hardcore players in some way you can't have a lot of viewers, and if you don't have a lot of viewers the competitive scene eventually will fade out (edit: not saying this is the actual state of the game since there is probably an oversaturation of events that's hurting viewer numbers). Nobody is saying that there should be 4v4 or Starjeweled tournaments, the real competition will always be 1v1 (hopefully 2v2 as well!), but the game desperately needs something fun for the mass - actually it needs a "mass" in the first place, that's why f2p works.
Half the SC2 playerbase doesn't even try the multiplayer part, and most of the people are literally FRIGHTENED by 1v1. This can be ok because 1v1 is physically and mentally challenging, but it isn't ok at all if people run away from the Starcraft franchise because there is nothing left for them besides that scary 1v1 ladder. SC2 lacks connection between the competitive scene and the average player experience.
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SC2 is dying but at a slow rate. I'm no longer enjoying playing nor watching SC2 games anymore. I'm sure that I'm in the majority.
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I don't think it has anything to do with being 1v1 or repetitive. Most real life sports are much more repetitive and some of them (like tennis) are 1v1, yet they have huge viewership numbers. In anything, SC2 is not repetitive and simple enough to go mainstream.
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The technology needs to be there already. Add LAN.
Bring out LotV sooner and drop the single player to get substantial savings on development costs. Just perfect the multiplayer and bring it to market for free or at a marginal cost.
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* Too many tournaments. With all the same players no less. I watch NBA and Euroleague not for more basketball but for different basketball. If all the same teams played everywhere I wouldn't bother to watch. I can hardly care who wins, i.e., current OSL finals. It's just one of many tournaments. And blizzard, taking a page from xkcd book on standards, is solving this problem by adding one more tournament. Facepalm.
* Results are too unpredictable. Even casters fail to predict correctly so often. Even TL writers fail so often. And they have so much experience. Game is too random. I wouldn't have enough sugar to sugarcoat this elephant in the room even if I wanted to.
* Games are too similar. Too boring. Too unpredictable (Yes it all is possible all at once. Think of a coin toss tournament). In basketball I can watch advantage building up. Every point matters, every cool play matters. I can watch the team building up their advantage and winning eventually. Or I can watch the other team starting catching up, and winning eventually. I see very clearly why winner is winner. What I cannot see in basketball is Lakers leading by 25 pts but then Kobe running into a "nice conclave" of Thunders, losing a ball, Durant throwing a stupid three pointer from his own basket, hitting, and it suddenly counts for 30 pts and Thunder wins by five. It's just stupid when majority of the game doesn't matter at all. If it doesn't matter I do not care to watch it, as simple as that. Can we fast forward to moments that do matter? And the biggest facepalm is when casters say "one mistake can cost a game" as if it's a good thing. One mistake should cost the game only when players are extremely equal, situation is extremely equal, etc. etc., not virtually in every game.
* Casters are hyping it too much. Artificial hype sometimes makes me wanting to throw up. Figuratively. And not every caster. Just majority of them. Also, wtf, I am watching basketball for 20+ years and I have never ever heard any basketball caster asking me to go on twitter or stupid Facebook and tweet about the game/tournament/him. SC2 casters do it on a regular basis.
* Supply cap is too low. "Did some damage to opponent" usually means precisely jack$jh1t since the opponent immediately rebuilds back to cap. Imagine what if there was a cap how many pts you may get per quarter in basketball. Sooo retarded. Yes I am aware it's a different game, but the low supply cap has precisely this effect. Which again leads to "cool" plays that eventually won't matter, to being unable to assess the situation from a regular viewers point (or from casters point as well way too often).
* B.net is full of braindamaged kids. I have played basketball a lot in my life, I used to travel a lot too, meaning I used to play in lots of different places with lots of people I didn't know. Never ever, not once, I saw anything close to what I used to see on battle.net on a regular basis. No "lol noob", no "fucking cheeser", nothing. 2v2 in battle.net is plagued by this.
This is just my opinion, it's quite possible fixing all the things I listed won't help the game to become popular because other people may (dis)like different things. But that's why I can't imagine myself getting bored by basketball and stopping watching it for good. Which is already happening with SC2. And I've been watching basketball literally more than 10 times longer than SC2.
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On August 10 2013 20:53 Big G wrote:
Half the SC2 playerbase doesn't even try the multiplayer part, and most of the people are literally FRIGHTENED by 1v1. This can be ok because 1v1 is physically and mentally challenging, but it isn't ok at all if people run away from the Starcraft franchise because there is nothing left for them besides that scary 1v1 ladder. SC2 lacks connection between the competitive scene and the average player experience.
IMHO thats the negative side of so many progamers streaming and tournaments. You can see realy good players participating there all the time, this creates a more tense atmosphere when people want to play. They dont have to wait long to meet someone that says "but progamer X said this, so the way you play is shit". Regardless if they are right or not, this adds pressure, along with the need to look for buildorders and counters for units. There is always this aura of this super competative game.
Compare this to Dota2. Not only is the player only a part of a team (and thus his errors can potentially be made up by stronger teammates), he gets a list of items to buy for his hero. If you want to play at higher levels and learned the game you can and will alter this, but for a new player thats pure gold.
So one of the things that makes SC2 different compared to MOBA games (1v1/5v5) also is one of the big reasons there is not much influx of new players.
Only slightly related, but if you look at TCG, you can see how this 1v1 pressure can be avoided if the game itself promotes a more casual view. Magic the Gathering has a very good pro scene, there are "build orders" (decks, sideboarding) and it takes more money than the 30 € you have to pay for SC2, offering tournaments 24/7 (on MTGO) online or on several days offline. There is lots of money to win too.
But there are a TON of casual players on MTGO too, playing 1v1 all the time (not even counting those who use free programs like cockatrice). You can find all kinds of decks and they are not afraid to use them. Why? My guess is because MTG is more or less labeled as a fun cardgame you play on your kitchentable with friends. From there you can get to low lvl tournaments even with beginner decks and you even get cards for participating.
I hope its clear what I want to say, its kinda hard to describe.
Assuming Hearthstone is a decent game, wanna bet that there won't be "ladder anxiety"? That there will be tournaments and that the lobby will be always full with new players?
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On August 10 2013 22:17 Sejanus wrote:
* Casters are hyping it too much. Artificial hype sometimes makes me wanting to throw up. Figuratively. And not every caster. Just majority of them. Also, wtf, I am watching basketball for 20+ years and I have never ever heard any basketball caster asking me to go on twitter or stupid Facebook and tweet about the game/tournament/him. SC2 casters do it on a regular basis.
Thats a realy good point too. I get so annoyed that each day we get bombarded with "OMG this is soooo epic". Sometimes I get the impression that Tastosis use the "Thats the best XvX I've ever casted" every match. Passion is good, but if casters hype the shit out of everything there is no real room for the plays that stand out more.
The social media crap is getting out of hand too. Its long past the point of inviting the viewers to participate, its gone full into lets show the sponsors you can get a few FB likes, reddit upvotes or twitter followers. And not only do they promote the sponsors (thats necessary), they promote themselves too all the time. Thats like a sports commentator begging for followers during every break or once a player scored a goal. "Wow, what a great shot, now follow #Messi on twitter and facebook".
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@ Gr33d: couldn't agree more. Thanks for elaborating on that point.
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On August 10 2013 22:17 Sejanus wrote:
* Casters are hyping it too much. Artificial hype sometimes makes me wanting to throw up. Figuratively. And not every caster. Just majority of them. Also, wtf, I am watching basketball for 20+ years and I have never ever heard any basketball caster asking me to go on twitter or stupid Facebook and tweet about the game/tournament/him. SC2 casters do it on a regular basis.
* B.net is full of braindamaged kids. I have played basketball a lot in my life, I used to travel a lot too, meaning I used to play in lots of different places with lots of people I didn't know. Never ever, not once, I saw anything close to what I used to see on battle.net on a regular basis. No "lol noob", no "fucking cheeser", nothing. 2v2 in battle.net is plagued by this.
First point is pretty valid, and I tend to agree. It's silly to watch a caster talk about how someone still has a chance when they're 50 supply down, if they get that "perfect engagement". It's very, very cheesy and it kind of downplays the skill of the person who's crushing his opponent. And the twitter shoutouts do get mighty old.
However, every game is full of braindamaged kids. I mean, have you even played another competitive online game? Comparing it to RL experience with sports doesn't really hold up when every single game has this issue. And it doesn't stop games like LoL and DotA2 from getting massive userbases and viewer numbers. There are other things, that are vastly more important than BM that can be looked at to improve numbers, though I won't deny that it couldn't hurt.
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Comparing it to RL experience with sports doesn't really hold up when every single game has this issue
And it doesn't stop games like LoL and DotA2 from getting massive userbases and viewer numbers
You are right, it probably won't stop the game from becoming mainstream. At most it adds a little bit to all the other reasons why SC2 is not becoming mainstream. But I just had to write it since it was the reason a few of my friends named when they stopped playing SC2.
From my own experience I can tell you Dawn of War and Dawn of War 2 playerbase is far better, but these games are even less popular, so yeah. You are right.
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They need to do the same thing they did with China for HotS in Korea. One of the main reason why BW was so popular to play was that it easy to access (they could go to any LAN to play, no need to create acc or bullshit like that), it could be torrented and played with friends over the LAN (yes, piracy actually helps game companies).
I guess now that Blizzard is money hungry including LAN and shit won't be possible for now, but it would be much better if they can. At least they should be releasing the LAN version for large scale tournaments, such as GSL, MLG, OSL, NASL, etc to use so that we won't see some of the disconnect bullshit.
They need to make Starcraft II more accessible for Koreans. Korea was where it all started, and for now almost all the koreans are into LoL, mainly because its free. This might also apply to other regions where people aren't willing to spend over 60USD to get both HotS and WoL and play SCII. As a Korean I've been trying to get more of my friends to play SCII but they won't because of the above reasons. (First thing is the fact that they have to buy the game, next is creating accounts, and the fact that even playing at LANs requie account)
The next problem would be its gameplay. Currently, other than TvZ and TvT all other match-up's late game battles only last 10 seconds, and most of the time it was about playing passively and not doing much until that final engagement. Back in Broodwar engagements lasted up to a minute, providing the viewers with an intense battle that you couldn't predict until the very end. Watch any balanced late game battles, whether its Zerg trying their best to break through terran's tank line, Protoss trying to hold off waves of zergs with their powerful zealot archon reaver army or Protoss gateway units charging at the Seige line from multiple directions. Those games were very exciting for viewers to watch and was intense as hell. Furthermore, we always saw small engagements around the map with players trying to get more map control, and insane micros such as mine dragging, lurker dodging, etc. We miss all of those.
Although this problem requires too much of change to be addressed now, I believe this is one of the problem that needs to be addressed. Watching 30 minute PvT isn't really that exciting, compared to Broodwar, or even SCII TvZ.
The last problem that I think needs to be addressed to help SCII is the casual scene. The custom games were what attracted all the casual players back then in BW - I remember sitting in front of my computer, wasting 3 hours playing various Custom games on Bnet. I don't know why, but now in SCII I don't have that same feeling with the SCII arcade. Also exactly what Gr33d pointed out - Not everyone wants to play 1v1s. This game needs to reduce its pressure on people to play competitive 1v1s, and play more casual stuff.
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surrender the IP rights as Blizzard did for South Korean promoters/tv show makers more than a decade ago.
go back to the "wild west" Brood War days in 2000-2003.
This is SC2's only chance to become what Brood War was early in this century.
This probably won't work. But, its SC2's only chance.
After this it boils down to people spending money to watch the best play.
Remember MLG's failed drive for 100,000 Gold Members? its these kinds of things that no one paid any attention to that greased the skids of MLG dropping SC2.
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And if you think the game's boring thats your oppinion. Do you have any arguements for that?
I know pretty well what's boring and what's not for me without any additional arguments. Not sure what are you trying to say. The rest of your post hardly makes any sense to me either, probably I am just missing something. You talk as if I have to prove something to you, and I believe I don't.
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Then its sort of a pointless thing to post. "Why do you dislike X?" - "because"
I explained why I dislike. At least a few people did understand. Again, not sure what do you want, but I am bored already. No I am not going to try and prove to you that I really dislike SC2 due to reasons listed above.
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I've pretty much given up the hope, maybe they do something amazing with LotV but most likely not.
We've gone through the discussions so many times before how there's a lot of things that could techincally improve the game from the point it is in now, but I don't know if it's too much work for Blizzard or too big of a risk to go for the changes.
Hell, right now I have a feeling that even Brood War was more fun for casual player.
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4713 Posts
You can't compare real sports to playing video games like that. The fact of the matter is, the barrier between the two opponents, the internet, distance, and time remove empathy from the equation.
When you play sports and you are running your ass off and sweating and suffering its much easier to respect the other guy that is also doing this but is maybe outplaying you, the proximity gives you a greater sense of connection and you can see and feel it in a much more palpable way, and thus respect it. Its far too easy in video games to fall into the trap of focusing on yourself and your own effort so much that you can't feel and thus even acknowledge the existence of the other guy's skill.
In my opinion there isn't anything more we can do to grow SC2 scene, as hard as you may try to tell more people about it and draw them in its ultimately up to the game to be exciting and dynamic enough to hook people and keep them in, and accessible enough that as many people as possible can pick it up.
What idea I have though, is maybe, more focus on fun and less on balance. Seriously we are too uptight, too obsessed with balanced, that we are forgetting what is really important, the fun of it, the big plays the exciting moments, we let our feelings of unfairness pollute or vision.
I say people should take a step back and complain less about balance and maybe focus more on having fun. If people keep seeing us qqing constantly about fairness and balance and perceive our frustration they will, naturally, conclude we aren't having fun or that we are masochists, and obviously lying about how awesome and fun the game is and that will, naturally drive people away.
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The problem with sc2 in my opinion is that it's too stale. The first 10 minutes of a game is like drone..drone...drone. Probe...probe....probe.....probe. It's not so exciting to watch when it's just all about being super greedy and take 3 bases asap. Not only that but i feel like there should be some tension going on aswell like these small but crucial battles that could happen early on in a match. All we see in the early game is pokes or all inns. Now im not gonna be too negative about this, i still like to watch sc2 atm. but i would love to see battles happening more often instead of just droning all the way to the late game and then just form a deathball.
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On August 10 2013 21:04 DarkSpectre wrote:
SC2 is dying but at a slow rate. I'm no longer enjoying playing nor watching SC2 games anymore. I'm sure that I'm in the majority.
This. For most people SC2 just isn't that fun to play and watch on a long term.
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EPT
