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On August 09 2013 13:39 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 13:25 RKC wrote:On August 09 2013 13:18 painkilla wrote:On August 09 2013 12:24 Arceus wrote:On August 09 2013 11:14 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 10:54 saltywet wrote:
Your only claim for Innovation not being #1 is that he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
+ Show Spoiler +
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
. Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that? Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality. The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please "Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them. Where all other Zergs have fallen, SK is holding the fort like Gandalf holding up against the Balrog. Based on the current meta, it's an amazing feat. Also, if you do watch his games against Inno (not sure about those against SN, didn't watch those), he did put up a great fight despite not taking any game. So yeah, in my view, PR should also take in consideration of the current state of the game (meta, map imbalances, patches, etc.). SK fighting! Definitely. In fact, as much as I like SN, him beating SK indicates that we might have a balance/meta problem.
Know what? Zerg fanboys shouldn't be too worried. It's written in the stars. History will repeat itself. A new Savior will rise from the ashes pretty much soon, next year tops.
(Then again, the new Bisu will take him down before end of HoTS. And in LOTV, the new Jangbi will rise.)
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On August 09 2013 13:18 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 12:24 Arceus wrote:On August 09 2013 11:14 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 10:54 saltywet wrote:
Your only claim for Innovation not being #1 is that he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
+ Show Spoiler +
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
. Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that? Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality. The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please "Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them.
No, Maru is good. Obviously he's good. However, the people saying "Maru 4-0 Innovation so Maru > Innovation" are stupid.
People thinking Maru > Innovation because A > B should realize that Starcraft isn't mathematics and you can't use mathematical properties (associative-property starcraft logic is so fucking terrible) and that this game has different matchups. Innovation's TvZ and TvP are so ridiculous right now that his loss to Maru in TvT is acceptable. If his 0-6 (vs Maru and Bomber in TvT) had been instead 0-2 in all three matchups, you could make the argument to remove him from #1.
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On August 09 2013 13:47 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 13:18 painkilla wrote:On August 09 2013 12:24 Arceus wrote:On August 09 2013 11:14 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 10:54 saltywet wrote:
Your only claim for Innovation not being #1 is that he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
+ Show Spoiler +
You Innovation lovers are ridiculous. Seriously the bias is literally making me disgusted.
My claim for isn't for Innovation not being #1 because he lost a series 0-4 to Maru.
My claim is for Maru being #1 because he smashed Innovation who was the #1.
When you beat the best, you become the best. Look up the definition of the word "best".
Doesn't that make sense? This isn't about how everyone stacks up to our God Innovation who must play absolutely terribly and lose everything or he keeps the #1... it is about how each StarCraft 2 player plays in relation to each other. When you present it as "this is why Maru deserves it" rather than "this is why Innovation doesn't deserve it" the argument becomes much stronger. Because you've removed the bias. Without the bias you realize that wins in Proleague and a WCG qualifier pale in comparison to someone dominating the consensus #1 4-0 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world. Maru deserves the recognition, denying it is a slap in his face. Plenty of people did well in Proleague and the WCG qualifier in July, but only one swept the consensus #1 in a best of seven series 4-0.
And it isn't like the rest of Maru's month was terrible, he played extremely well in WCS. Take another look here at the July stats: Maru is 6-2 (75%) in matches 15-8 (65%) in games. Innovation is 17-4 (80%) in matches and 29-12 (70%) in games.
This is average Aligulac rating of Maru's opponents from July: 1603
This is average Aligulac rating of Innovation's opponents from July: 1429
So Innovation has the higher winrate, but it is against lesser opponents. But the main thing is that Maru proved to be the better player than Innovation in July, by sweeping the consensus #1 in a best of 7 series. Sweeping! It wasn't even close, no game was close!
You can't be #1 when you drop a best of seven 0-4 in the Ro4 of the best individual league in the world to someone you're supposed to beat. This doesn't mean that Innovation is bad, it doesn't mean he can't retake #1, but it means in July, he wasn't the best.
Because Maru was
. Have you not realized that PR is never about the logic of A > B so A ranked higher than B? Because it's retarded. Losira must have been #1 cuz he 2-0'd Maru. Hows about that? Funny you talks about opponents' quality: Maru: soO, sOs, EffOrt, SN, Trap, Losira, Symbol. Bogus: Bbyong, Savage, Flying, Bomber, Flash, SoulKey, [insert SPL players] Maru cheesed the shit out of sOs, Trap & later on Bogus, played a hilariously terrible ZvTer (srsly EffOrt should stop the hydraroach bs), played a lulz series with SN, drawing an similarly allinish Symbol. Now you tell me about opponents' quality. The question to ask yourself is: what can one player achieve long-term with his play? Thats what PR is about. Maru with 80% of his game being shenanigans because he couldnt play straight-up? Top 4 for 3 consecutive cheeses is good enough for him. Everybody in the LR thread is like, lol this kid! lol cheesee loooool. Now you tell me thats the reaction for a top1 player? Oh and stop your kindergarten "A beat B so A > B" logic please "Lol Maru cheese lol" is everybody reaction toward Maru? Sounds like butthurt Kespa fanboys mostly. Maru played the player and won. If anybody can play like that and beat Innovation, they would've done it. And Maru topped the KR ladder recently so don't even try to imply that he is just some cheesy noob, you're making yourself look bad. And what is so impressive about Bbyoung, Savage, Flying and Flash ? Are they better than Maru's opponents by definition? Innovation also lost to Bomber. Beating SK is impressive but SK also lost to SN, a player you seem to have a very low opinion on. So no, opponents quality of Maru is probably better, considering Innovation is among them. No, Maru is good. Obviously he's good. However, the people saying "Maru 4-0 Innovation so Maru > Innovation" are stupid. People thinking Maru > Innovation because A > B should realize that Starcraft isn't mathematics and you can't use mathematical properties (associative-property starcraft logic is so fucking terrible) and that this game has different matchups. Innovation's TvZ and TvP are so ridiculous right now that his loss to Maru in TvT is acceptable. If his 0-6 (vs Maru and Bomber in TvT) had been instead 0-2 in all three matchups, you could make the argument to remove him from #1.
Well of course Innovation > Maru.
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Holy shit, never expected Maru's 4-0 over INnoVation to cause this much of a shitstorm.
Tbh the thing I'm most surprised at is why the pitchforks aren't coming out to argue why Bisu isn't #1...
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On August 09 2013 13:13 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 11:19 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 07:53 blobrus wrote:
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes
1. MVP
2. Haypro
3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG? If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea. This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot. That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that. Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here. Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR? This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we? You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum. So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once? Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out).
We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.)
#1 Maru
#2 Rain
#3 Innovation
#4 Bomber
#5 First
#6 Supernova
#7 Soulkey
#8 Hyun
#9 Taeja
#10 San
I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid.
I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot.
Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners.
Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru.
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So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
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On August 09 2013 14:30 SAFenix wrote:
Holy shit, never expected Maru's 4-0 over INnoVation to cause this much of a shitstorm.
Tbh the thing I'm most surprised at is why the pitchforks aren't coming out to argue why Bisu isn't #1...
One reason that makes me sad now that SPL is over is the decline of artwork from so-called BW elitists. I hope people like BisuDagger hasn't laid down his pitchfork and paintbrush.
I mean seriously, SC2 fans have to step on creativity. The only memorable memes/gifs that I can think off is Keen's celebration and the MVP pow one (which IMHO is only mehhh). Sad that MC is not top form, otherwise we'll see more hilarious throat-cutting poses.
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On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee?
Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great, that helps keep him #1, but the OSL Ro4 best of seven is far more important.
And in that match, Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking.
And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked Innovation's Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure Innovation picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. So that nice 17-4 match score is deceiving compared to Maru's 6-2 when the average rating of his opponents is 1429 versus Maru's 1602. Innovations match score in the OLS was 3-2, and his game score 7-6, compared to 4-1 and 11-5 for Maru.
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On August 09 2013 15:02 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee? Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great. But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect.
Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo.
And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy?
Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
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On August 09 2013 14:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 13:13 RKC wrote:On August 09 2013 11:19 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 07:53 blobrus wrote:
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes
1. MVP
2. Haypro
3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG? If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea. This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot. That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that. Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here. Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR? This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we? You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum. So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once? Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out). We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.) #1 Maru #2 Rain #3 Innovation #4 Bomber #5 First #6 Supernova #7 Soulkey #8 Hyun #9 Taeja #10 San I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid. I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot. Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners. Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru.
Maru played way less games than Innovation and less impressive. How the hell can he be #1 on that list?
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On August 09 2013 14:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 13:13 RKC wrote:On August 09 2013 11:19 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 07:53 blobrus wrote:
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes
1. MVP
2. Haypro
3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG? If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea. This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot. That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that. Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here. Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR? This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we? You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum. So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once? Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out). We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.) #1 Maru #2 Rain #3 Innovation #4 Bomber #5 First #6 Supernova #7 Soulkey #8 Hyun #9 Taeja #10 San I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid. I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot. Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners. Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru.
Fair enough. Good try.
But I would still give a lot of weightage to SPL. It's too bad Maru is not in it, but that's just bad luck. Then again, he has GSTL, which I don't think he was carrying Prime the way Inno was carrying STX (I may be wrong, I hardly follow GSTL).
Anyway, mine would be something like:
1. Inno
2. Rain
3. Maru
4. SK
5. Bomber / First (?)
I can't rate beyond that, because I don't really follow the foreign scene. Yes, I may seem to be downplaying the quality of foreign tourneys, as essentially I am arbitrarily deciding that finishing No. 1 in a foreign tourney will only get you as far as 6-10 in PR.
For me, Inno still takes the cake for performing well in SPL and WCG qualifiers.
As a football equivalent, it's always more difficult preparing to fight for the national league title (EPL/SPL/Bundesliga) and the regional title (Champions League), as opposed to fight for just one. You have to consider that teams (just like pro players in sponsored clans) have to equally divide their time, to maximise the most profit. I'm sure a lot of Inno and SK's time was torn between SPL and WCS. That's bad luck. But the great thing for Inno was that he did well in both, nonetheless.
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Also, I think past month's results is indirectly telling, and should be considered.
Flash f**ed up in RO16 WCS, thus minimising his chance to impress last month.
Inno did well in all tourneys he contested in, thus giving himself plenty of chances to shine, month after month.
Theoretically, Maru could've done for Prime what Inno did for STX, thus giving himself a chance to shine in GSTL - but he didn't.
Point is, there's always carry forward effect from previous months. And players who consistently perform well and open chances for themselves to shine, should be rewarded.
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On August 09 2013 15:07 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:02 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee? Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great. But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo. And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy? Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that.
In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0.
Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings.
That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good.
In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is.
Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
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On August 09 2013 15:09 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 14:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 13:13 RKC wrote:On August 09 2013 11:19 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 07:53 blobrus wrote:
Also as far as your Innovation beat Maru, he's better argument: Haypro beat Nestea and barely lost to MVP once at an MLG. According to your formula since we're apparently taking nothing into account other than head to head it goes
1. MVP
2. Haypro
3. Nestea
Would that be what you took away from that MLG? If you were judging the performance of players by only that MLG, then what you said is correct of course. How else can you view it? If someone unfamiliar with E-Sports looked only at the results from that MLG they would rank Haypro higher than Nestea. And that should be obvious. However, MLG is more difficult to gauge because it is a single day tournament and you don't have time to specifically prepare for each opponent. For this reason I believe it doesn't require as much SC2 skill, and you rely more on endurance. Finally, those were best of 3, not best of 7, and Haypro didn't sweep Nestea. This Power Rank judges the performance of this month, with some weight given to past performances. Based on the past Innovation should have dominated this month. He did not. He was soundly beaten 4-0. Thus he no longer deserves the #1 spot. That doesn't mean he can't get it back, or that he is bad. It means that when it mattered in July, Maru was better. And the results show that. Wow, you've really started a war. Whilst I understand your point, I find it difficult to accept, just like most people here. Before you should go on further, why not you come up with your own PR? This is not a diversionary challenge. The point here is that PR is not about A vs B, or in this case, Maru v Inno. It's about A v B v C v D.... basically all the top pros in SC2. But let's make it simple and limit it to the current Top 10 this month, shall we? You are saying that Maru > Inno. That is true. The rest are saying that Inno > 8 players in the Top 10, whilst Maru probably only > 5. And they say this not because everyone in the Top 10 has played before, but based on previous meetings in previous months and their observation on everyone's play. Whilst this is not really objective, it is the best data they can rely on, without hypothesising in vacuum. So yes, Maru beat Inno. But most evidence point to the fact that Inno will likely beat the shit outta the rest of the Top 10, whilst Maru might struggle against half of them them, even based on this month's form. Inno has won against SK and Rain not once but more than once in the same month, though losing against Bomber (in arguably a dead rubber). Maru has yet to play against 3 of them. How can we say that Maru is better than SK, Rain and Bomber as well? Just because he beat Inno once? Seriously, this ain't about Maru v Inno. Once you try to pit EVERYONE against EVERYONE, you will understand how difficult it is to come up with a PR rank. And what's very clear is that your "A beats B so A is better than B" formula will go nowhere in coming up with a definitive PR (Inno > Rain > Bomber > Inno: figure that one out). We're only looking at July, so let's check out their winrates and the strength of their opponents (as I did earlier with Maru and Innovation, we saw Innovation with the better winrate (80% to 75%), but Maru's opposition was over 150 points better in Aligulac rating.) #1 Maru #2 Rain #3 Innovation #4 Bomber #5 First #6 Supernova #7 Soulkey #8 Hyun #9 Taeja #10 San I put this together quickly, and still feel there is some room for movement from 6-10 (Flash is right there). 1-4 are solid. I also think it is worth looking at people like Taeja And Soulkey. Does either really deserve a high spot? Taeja beat Polt and XY, and won the Asus ROG over some second tier Koreans. I don't think he does. And Soulkey has been struggling mightily. His claim to fame is that win over Innovation, which at this point looks more like an Innovation Choke than a Soulkey win. He might even deserve a lower spot. Finally, I think San deserves a spot, with wins over DRG (x2), Creator, Hyun, Sen and a long streak of foreigners. Maru and Rain take the top spots as the two remaining players in the best individual tournament in the world. Both are playing well and had a great month. Innovation had a good month everywhere except the OSL where he was mediocre (7-6 in games) and looked terrible in a loss to Maru. Maru played way less games than Innovation and less impressive. How the hell can he be #1 on that list?
Less impressive? He beat better overall players, including a sweep of Innovation himself?
Why does it matter how many games he does play honestly? A lot of Innovations games were against lower level opponents (hence the 173 point difference in Aligulac rating between Maru's and Innovation's opponents). Should Maru have played a bunch of scrubs to up his win percentage at expense of his Aligulac rating?
You guys see this big win percentage and a lot of game and assume it means great things, when it doesn't.
Don't hold the fact Maru isn't in Proleague against him. Individual leagues should count more for individual rankings.
On August 09 2013 15:10 RKC wrote:
For me, Inno still takes the cake for performing well in SPL and WCG qualifiers.
Here is the difference. A lot of players performed well in SPL and the WCG qualifiers. Gumiho, Parting, Rain, Soulkey, ect all did well at WCG, it isn't a huge achievement, it is just a qualifier. As for the SPL, Trap won every game he was sent out for, 100% winrate. It isn't anything that impressive because these results happens much more frequently.
But a Ro4 sweep in a best of seven against the consensus best player in the world is impressive, and doesn't happen frequently.
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On August 09 2013 15:17 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:07 Rhaegal wrote:On August 09 2013 15:02 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee? Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great. But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo. And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy? Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that. In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0. Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings. That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good. In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is. Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
Not only did Inno beat all opposition in the SPL playoffs, he also won the ace matches against SKT when both matches were tied 3-3. That's clutch.
Yes, STX is the best team in SPL. But Inno had a lot to do with it. He's like Messi of Barcelona, Ronaldo of Real Madrid. True, it's still down to the team, but contributing 20%-30%, which is how I rate Inno's contribution to STX, is a great feat for any player.
Anyway, the issue seems to boil down to the significance of SPL. We can all agree to disagree on this. Maybe it's my BW background, but I regard SPL highly (as do the Kespa teams and players themselves).
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On August 09 2013 15:17 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:07 Rhaegal wrote:On August 09 2013 15:02 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee? Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great. But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo. And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy? Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that. In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0. Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings. That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good. In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is. Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL?
WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
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On August 09 2013 15:25 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:17 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 15:07 Rhaegal wrote:On August 09 2013 15:02 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee? Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great. But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo. And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy? Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that. In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0. Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings. That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good. In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is. Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL? Not only did Inno beat all opposition in the SPL playoffs, he also won the ace matches against SKT when both matches were tied 3-3. That's clutch. Yes, STX is the best team in SPL. But Inno had a lot to do with it. He's like Messi of Barcelona, Ronaldo of Real Madrid. True, it's still down to the team, but contributing 20%-30%, which is how I rate Inno's contribution to STX, is a great feat for any player. Anyway, the issue seems to boil down to the significance of SPL. We can all agree to disagree on this. Maybe it's my BW background, but I regard SPL highly (as do the Kespa teams and players themselves).
Frankly, I just find it disgusting and disrespectful to Maru that people would say "Hey great work, you smashed Innovation the best player in the world, your now #4!" and say to Innovation "Hey good try, no worries bud you're still #1!" No other Power Rank in any other sport works like this. The Patriots were ranked #1 after they upset the Rams in 2001, despite the Rams being heavily favored and having recently won another Superbowl.
It wasn't like their game was a group stage game, there was 4 players left, and both of these guys went through incredible competition, and to say that somehow Innovation is better is to completely ignore the results of a best of seven series. Sweet he won a bunch of SPL matches and did well in WCG... seriously that is great, but a lot of other, lesser players did the same thing in July. Those results in SPL and WCG aren't enough alone to keep someone at #1, especially when they drop a huge series 0-4 against an opponent they were favored, and end the month going a mediocre 7-6 in the OSL.
Trap performed better in the playoffs for STX statistically he never dropped a game. Innovation dropped a game to BeSt.
Finally, I'd like to say, that Innovation can't have it both ways. You can't say "Innovation is better than Maru because of his SPL wins, and his OSL loss is excusable because of his SPL wins." He can't both get an excuse for his OSL loss because he was preparing for SPL, but then get all this credit for wins in SPL. It is one or the other.
The fact Innovation split his time is his own fault, and if it negatively affects his play, than that is his problem. This is also why a ton of games and big win percentage shouldn't be the be all end all for the Power Rank.
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On August 09 2013 15:28 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:17 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 15:07 Rhaegal wrote:On August 09 2013 15:02 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee? Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great. But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo. And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy? Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that. In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0. Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings. That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good. In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is. Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL? WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story.
Care to explain why WJS is the best team in SPL? STX did actually perform better in the last three rounds of SPL, and they did go 5-0 in the playoffs to win. I would agree WJS was by far the strongest in WoL, but HotS changed some of the rankings IMO.
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On August 09 2013 15:36 Gorilla23 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 15:28 painkilla wrote:On August 09 2013 15:17 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 15:07 Rhaegal wrote:On August 09 2013 15:02 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 09 2013 14:59 Rhaegal wrote:
So does Proleague just not exist in your world Bronzknee? Of course it does. But if I am not mistaken, Innovation got a single win over Soulkey in the Proleague final. So Innovation was favored and won a match he should have. Great. But Maru 4-0ed the consensus #1 and made it look it easy. Big difference in terms of achievements there. One is expected, the other is downright shocking. And the WCG qualifiers are what tanked his Aligulac rating compared to Maru. Sure he picked up a bunch of wins, but the opponents were suspect. Yea, those qualifiers that Maru got 2-0'd in in the first round by someone with 1295 elo. And you ignore Innovations other proleague victories in July.. like vs Rain or Fantasy? Writers would look like idiots if they made Maru #1. Innovation is the best player in the world, losing 1 series doesn't change that. In my mind, the most important match they both played last month individually was the OSL Ro4 match. It was also a best of seven and the best chance to showcase their skills. Maru won that match 4-0. Proleague is important, and Innovation performed well, but it was a Bo1 format. The WCG qualifiers are great too, but none of that is as important as a best of seven for these individual rankings. That is my opinion, if you think Proleague is more important, that is fine. I think a Bo1 format is terrible, and while him beating Fantasy, Rain and Soulkey are good, his wins against Crazy and Hitman, while still good, aren't that impressive due to their rankings, and his lost to Best isn't good. In other words, he performed well enough in Proleague to easily keep his ranking if that was the premier tournament to showcase his individual skills. But it isn't. The OSL is. Let me put it this way, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team in the world right now after winning Proleague? If not, then why would you argue that Maru or Rain isn't the best player as they are about to win an WCS/OSL? WJS is the best team in PL. Not sure about best in the world though cause IM is pretty strong. Again, Innovation's TvZ and TvP is far more impressive than Maru's. In TvT the hellbat nerf took away Innovation's best weapon so I say give him time to adapt. No one can deny that Maru was the better player in that series, but overall, it is a different story. Care to explain why WJS is the best team in SPL? STX did actually perform better in the last three rounds of SPL, and they did go 5-0 in the playoffs to win. I would agree WJS was by far the strongest in WoL, but HotS changed some of the rankings IMO.
He also argues that Innovation is better than Maru...
Some people can't see past their own bias.
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EPT
