EPTInterview of David Kim about Balance in IEM - Page 4
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:13 EnderSword wrote: I don't really understand the logic behind 'The are just fewer Top Protoss players' What does that mean exactly? There's not less actual Protoss players, but there's less ones at the top.. So wouldn't that mean they are in fact underperforming? I think though more fundamentally, there's a bit of a disconnect between what they think is 'interesting' or 'entertaining' in a match up, and what many of us think is. Some very good strategic drops are interesting....but having a game dominated by 30+ drops harassing and picking up over and over starts to feel more like 'Well, that's just kind of bullshit' There's kind of a diminishing returns on it. People like some cool gimmicks, but when the gimmicks just become the standard it can be obnoxious after a while. It's kind of hard to see constant hellbat drops or simultaneous widow mine drops take out 25 workers and have the audience think 'Oh well deserved, excellent' I'm picking on Terran there, Oracle is similar, though it can be shut down colder. I think there's a problem with Protoss being too conventional, Protoss 98% of the time just wants to engage their full army vs yours. While it feels Terran relies all on unconventional tactics...they very rarely would want their whole army fighting yours, if they could micro it, they'd be happier dropping 12 different spots at once. Too conventional and too unconventional are both bad, there's got to be a better mix of viable options in all 3 races and there's just not. That's my point. When i got drop constantly in different location i normally just type "GG". Canon's pretty good i heard. But when medivac, units don't seems to die. So i leave a templar in base hoping to FB his medivac but his medivac don't die and i pick my units off and ZOOOOM run away with BOOST back to base for repair and come back for more. Woot! | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 26 2013 13:00 Kim Hyuna wrote: David Kim is an idiot. We already seen TOP protoss players playing inside KR. And almost zero success in taking one major title here in KR. Isn't  PartinG, Rain, First, MC etc top Protoss players? I don't see any NEW upcoming top protoss coming near.And, Stardust is playing against Foreigner and not TOP Z/T players from KR. And his win against JD is nothing HUGE because JD is known for his weakness in PvZ. What an idiot again. Isn't that what Protossers has been doing? It's either turtle up for one fucking push or 2 base all in. Oracle? It's a shit unit. Obviously he hates Protoss since WOL days. First and Rain are both relatively new to the top end scene (of SC2), and First still appears to have nerve issues. A lot of the Kespa protoss look great, which is why they are so strong in pro league. eSF protoss generally seem weak for some reason. You seem heavily biased in favor of protoss buffs. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
Not trying to offend the OP, just reprimand him a bit for really shooting the pooch with asking bad questions that will get obvious answers. | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote: First and Rain are both relatively new to the top end scene (of SC2), and First still appears to have nerve issues. A lot of the Kespa protoss look great, which is why they are so strong in pro league. eSF protoss generally seem weak for some reason. You seem heavily biased in favor of protoss buffs. I am very biased in favor of protoss buffs. I have been saying Protoss need to be redesign or needs a major buff since WOL days. Overall results doesn't favor Protoss. Doesn't mean a protoss winning in foreigner tournament means protoss is fine. We have to look at major KR scene where the real top players came from and our local results. And this whining shit has gotten banned for a few times tho. | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
Anyway, as a terran player in HOTS, this is my opinion on protoss..... + Show Spoiler + I think an issue with protoss, is the race just doesn't really have any "safe standard play". If the opponent figures out what the protoss players strategy is early, the protoss dies, on the other side, if it goes unscouted or unpredicted, the protoss player has a very good chance at success. Protoss doesn't really seem to have builds that hold up versus anything and allow for adjustments as the game progresses, aka standard play. This differs from the other races in that when you scout a tech building from zerg or terran, they almost always have the option to alter their plans or what you scouted can indicate a number of strategies. Where with protoss, you can't just back out on a tech path you invested in. It's very easy to scout a protoss and know EXACTLY what he will be doing 3 minutes from now. Also, protoss has issues with 3rd bases on several maps. If the map doesn't give them a very easy 3rd, protoss almost always executes a 2 base all in. At least from the matches I've seen. Which is predictable, thus the odds of holding it increase. Protoss has more issues, that I think lowers it's odds of getting through tourneys. When a protoss loses an expansion, it almost never recovers. I see zergs and terrans come back from this MUCH more often then protoss. The zerg can afford to replace it or already have another base started, and terrans can fly the OC away. Protoss just loses the game. Not to mention when a protoss loses workers they can't get their economy back on track fast enough. Zerg makes many drones at once, and terrans can get by on mules while remaking scv's. Protoss just runs out of money and dies. Protoss also has the issue of ever losing 1 army is game ending. I'd love to see some statistics of all 3 races and see how often P/Z/T comes back to win after A. Losing almost entire army B. Losing an expansion C. Losing a good % of workers. I'd be willing to bet protoss has the lowest come back rates by far for any of these scenarios. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:21 Honeybadger wrote: I really have to say, those questions were terribly biased. Seriously, you have the opportunity to pick kim's mind, and you ask him stupid "zerg too weak medivac boost imba" silver league questions? Not trying to offend the OP, just reprimand him a bit for really shooting the pooch with asking bad questions that will get obvious answers. The op is translating, he didn't do the interview. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:21 Kim Hyuna wrote: I am very biased in favor of protoss buffs. I have been saying Protoss need to be redesign or needs a major buff since WOL days. Overall results doesn't favor Protoss. Doesn't mean a protoss winning in foreigner tournament means protoss is fine. We have to look at major KR scene where the real top players came from and our local results. Is pro league not a major KR scene? How about that there is always a protoss in the RO4? Season 1 kr: sOs made it to the RO4 Season 1 world finals: sOs made it to the finals Season 2 kr: + Show Spoiler + Rain makes it to RO4 2012: Season 3 code S: 2 protoss in RO4, both make it to finals Season 4 code S: Rain makes it to RO4 I dont have all of the statistics, but pro league protoss are doing extremely well: Protoss 66-55 Terran 53-58 Zerg 56-62 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012-2013_Proleague/Statistics#Racial_Statistics | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:27 Reborn8u wrote: Great questions. I like things straight forward. I kind of feel like David Kim gave somewhat shallow answers to a some of the questions. Anyway, as a terran player in HOTS, this is my opinion on protoss..... + Show Spoiler + I think an issue with protoss, is the race just doesn't really have any "safe standard play". If the opponent figures out what the protoss players strategy is early, the protoss dies, on the other side, if it goes unscouted or unpredicted, the protoss player has a very good chance at success. Protoss doesn't really seem to have builds that hold up versus anything and allow for adjustments as the game progresses, aka standard play. This differs from the other races in that when you scout a tech building from zerg or terran, they almost always have the option to alter their plans or what you scouted can indicate a number of strategies. Where with protoss, you can't just back out on a tech path you invested in. It's very easy to scout a protoss and know EXACTLY what he will be doing 3 minutes from now. Also, protoss has issues with 3rd bases on several maps. If the map doesn't give them a very easy 3rd, protoss almost always executes a 2 base all in. At least from the matches I've seen. Which is predictable, thus the odds of holding it increase. Protoss has more issues, that I think lowers it's odds of getting through tourneys. When a protoss loses an expansion, it almost never recovers. I see zergs and terrans come back from this MUCH more often then protoss. The zerg can afford to replace it or already have another base started, and terrans can fly the OC away. Protoss just loses the game. Not to mention when a protoss loses workers they can't get their economy back on track fast enough. Zerg makes many drones at once, and terrans can get by on mules while remaking scv's. Protoss just runs out of money and dies. Protoss also has the issue of ever losing 1 army is game ending. I'd love to see some statistics of all 3 races and see how often P/Z/T comes back to win after A. Losing almost entire army B. Losing an expansion C. Losing a good % of workers. I'd be willing to bet protoss has the lowest come back rates by far for any of these scenarios. Spot on! That's what i wanted to say but sorry my english so bad. The tech path we protoss invested is straight to kill. It's almost impossible to tech switch unlike Zerg who can tech switch easily after holding one major push. I'm talking about tech switch from ground to mass muta. How many games you see protoss can recover after losing from muta switch and losing major unpowered gateways and tons of probes. It's stupid. And speaking of Viper, of cos i know templar is the tech path to counter it. But come on, it could be either Viper or swarm. It's unpredictable. If it's Mass swarm, colo is a need and a tech switch from colo to templar is so hard if 3rd is so hard to secure with tons of swarm place near your 3rd and constant production of colo is required to defend swarm host. It's indeed a very sad race to even begin with. | ||
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Stress
United States980 Posts
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:32 TheRabidDeer wrote: Is pro league not a major KR scene? How about that there is always a protoss in the RO4? Season 1 kr: sOs made it to the RO4 Season 1 world finals: sOs made it to the finals Season 2 kr: + Show Spoiler + Rain makes it to RO4 2012: Season 3 code S: 2 protoss in RO4, both make it to finals Season 4 code S: Rain makes it to RO4 I dont have all of the statistics, but pro league protoss are doing extremely well: Protoss 66-55 Terran 53-58 Zerg 56-62 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012-2013_Proleague/Statistics#Racial_Statistics Dude, STOP looking at pro league, Team play cannot justify the race is FINE because it is a BO1 and pro league is basically a PvP battle ground. And overall #1 has NOT been a Protoss for the longest time. Being in RO4 doesn't mean this race is FINE again as i said. If the race is FINE, we should be seeing a Protoss in final and not always a TvZ final EVERYTIME. because by the time Protoss reaches FINAL, it has already gotten figure OUT how to beat them in Ro4. | ||
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MVK
Romania11 Posts
Mothership core: Denies any all ins from terran or zerg , think about the last time you saw a 2 rax win or proxy stuff vs protoss Ultralisk: Think back in WOL when zergs couldn't make mass ultralisks because siege tanks and marauders countered them really well, so zergs had to make broodlords. Now you see more mass ultra and rarely broodlords Tanks: Tanks are underused in tvz, I really liked marine tank in WoL, however in TvT I feel like bio vs mech is a bit too hard to playout compared to mech vs bio, this might be only me but I'm having a hard time dealing with it. For last, I didn't check it, so I might be wrong but I think spore crawlers do more damage then turrets do to mutalisks, mutalisks are afraid to attack into spores but not into turrets. I don't understand why you don't need evolution chamber for spores but still need engi bay and forge for the other races | ||
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Incubus1993
Canada140 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:35 Kim Hyuna wrote: Dude, STOP looking at pro league, Team play cannot justify the race is FINE because it is a BO1 and pro league is basically a PvP battle ground. And overall #1 has NOT been a Protoss for the longest time. Being in RO4 doesn't mean this race is FINE again as i said. If the race is FINE, we should be seeing a Protoss in final and not always a TvZ final EVERYTIME. We literally had a protoss in the world finals like this very last season. We may have a protoss in the finals again this season. There are 3 races, and only 2 can go to the finals. I am sorry that it isnt a protoss EVERY time. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:36 MVK wrote: My thoughts on the current state of the game: Mothership core: Denies any all ins from terran or zerg , think about the last time you saw a 2 rax win or proxy stuff vs protoss Ultralisk: Think back in WOL when zergs couldn't make mass ultralisks because siege tanks and marauders countered them really well, so zergs had to make broodlords. Now you see more mass ultra and rarely broodlords Tanks: Tanks are underused in tvz, I really liked marine tank in WoL, however in TvT I feel like bio vs mech is a bit too hard to playout compared to mech vs bio, this might be only me but I'm having a hard time dealing with it. For last, I didn't check it, so I might be wrong but I think spore crawlers do more damage then turrets do to mutalisks, mutalisks are afraid to attack into spores but not into turrets. I don't understand why you don't need evolution chamber for spores but still need engi bay and forge for the other races And it kills off DT rush (one of the protoss arsenal to win) to punish greedy zerg because EC is not required. Seriously? | ||
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Emuking
United States144 Posts
On July 26 2013 12:53 larse wrote: David Kim: About mech, we are thinking to make it easier to use. I view video games as instruments, the more complex and harder to play, the more beautiful a sound that can come from it. I want this game to be the hardest game on the market. Am I the only one who thinks making it easier isnt what the majority of sc2 players want? I don't care if its not the most popular game, I just want some uniqueness in every game like broodwar that cant be easily replicated by just any GM.. this is supposed to be the sequel of Broodwars so why doesnt it feel like that to me? | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On July 26 2013 14:38 TheRabidDeer wrote: We literally had a protoss in the world finals like this very last season. We may have a protoss in the finals again this season. There are 3 races, and only 2 can go to the finals. I am sorry that it isnt a protoss EVERY time. LOL...................................................................okay. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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