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On August 10 2013 15:55 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 15:07 havok55 wrote:On August 03 2013 04:34 Incognoto wrote:1. We won't change balance based on a single region.
2. We are observing the turtle swarm host plus static defense style in ZvP late-game.
3. We won't nerf the medivac because Terran is not strong at the moment. Further nerfing the medivac will make Terran even weaker.
4. If ZvZ continues to be roach vs roach for a very long time, we may make changes in the future.
5. It is true that mech is countered by Zerg. But they are observing carefully, because buffing some units may bring about more problems.
6. When people talk about "balancing by map", they are actually making the argument that some maps favor a specific strategy of a certain race. So on the flip side, the opponent knows what strategy that is, so the opponent can be prepared. So it's balanced in the end. Has this guy seen Innovation play? Terran not strong at the moment? Has he seen the OSL recently? I'm confused. Also the "we won't change balance based on a single region" is akin to saying "we won't balance the game for the highest possible level" considering Korea is so much more competitive than NA or EU. So again, it seems that David Kim has lost touch with the game? I really don't like the things David Kim says.. those two things I put in bold just gives me the impression that he's not really suited for his job. Nerf Terran because the best player in the world plays it! Just what I expected out of the TL peanut gallery. TL peanut gallery? Can you please attempt to read and understand what someone is trying to convey rather than putting words into peoples' mouths? I will clarify my post once. Terran is not under-performing and DK saying Terran is "not strong atm" is ridiculous. Many genuinely good Terrans are doing really well. I cited Innovation as an example but there are others, such as Taeja, Bomber, Supernova, etc. You get the point. In Korea, the region where the players play a good notch above everyone else, Terran is doing just fine. I never said Terran should be nerfed in that post. I implied that they weren't weak. There's a difference.
look at the GM statistics for every region and realize that terran is indeed underperforming. hint: there's significantly less terrans in every GM league.
not saying terran is actually underpowered. i can imagine TvZ isnt going so well right now because of strong Z allins while Ts play without tanks, and the fact that terrans are still not using ravens in lategame. but TvP might actually be unbalanced due to the MSC. not sure.
anyway. terrans are underperforming.
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He uses ladder data to support balance, and zerg winning championships as support of good balance. However, when protoss isn't winning nearly as many championships it's not because of balance, it's because protoss players aren't as good. Really David Kim?
So many tourneys loaded with protoss in the round of 32 and 16 and they drop like flys before it gets to semi's.
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Only in America, who won season one America again?
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campaign units in 3v3/4v4 sounds awesome. i really wish they would do that
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On August 12 2013 00:53 Reborn8u wrote:
He uses ladder data to support balance, and zerg winning championships as support of good balance. However, when protoss isn't winning nearly as many championships it's not because of balance, it's because protoss players aren't as good. Really David Kim?
So many tourneys loaded with protoss in the round of 32 and 16 and they drop like flys before it gets to semi's.
it's a perfectly legitimate point. IMO protoss in WoL was the least innovative race and i say this because of the sentry. Since protoss depends so heavily on the sentry early game, it's created a higher learning curve for protoss players. I think toss could use a buff though, one buff I'd like to see implemented is the oracle starting with 1 armor (+1).
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On August 10 2013 15:07 havok55 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 23:09 Grimmac wrote:
David Kim: Actually, for example, our design team has considered to put lurker into the multiplayer game. We tried many times. But colossus has long range, immortal has anti-armored damage, and Terran has marauder, all of which counter the lurker.
that makes me so frustrated ...
BW had Siege tanks, what about that ?
give us lurker back, goddamnit :/ We got the lurker in campaign, and they really were useless.
Oh come on ... it wasnt the BW lurker under BW conditions, so it cant have been as good ... on purpose, because the SC2 devs have to prove their superiority.
The "SC2 Lurker" deals 15 + 15 vs armored damage and this makes it shitty against every non-armored target especially with the cooldown of over 3 seconds. So it basically has the same problem as the Siege Tank.
The BW Lurker shoots roughly once every 1.8 seconds or so (cooldown 37 frames ... and the number of frames depend on game speed) and deals flat 20 splash damage against everything.
You also have to take into account that there are a lot more units in an SC2 game compared to BW due to the higher economy and production speed boosts and thus the units need to be BETTER at dealing damage and NOT WORSE to have equal performance.
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On August 12 2013 05:56 dutchfriese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 00:53 Reborn8u wrote:
He uses ladder data to support balance, and zerg winning championships as support of good balance. However, when protoss isn't winning nearly as many championships it's not because of balance, it's because protoss players aren't as good. Really David Kim?
So many tourneys loaded with protoss in the round of 32 and 16 and they drop like flys before it gets to semi's. it's a perfectly legitimate point. IMO protoss in WoL was the least innovative race and i say this because of the sentry. Since protoss depends so heavily on the sentry early game, it's created a higher learning curve for protoss players. I think toss could use a buff though, one buff I'd like to see implemented is the oracle starting with 1 armor (+1).
Not necessarily a higher learning curve, let's just save it severely limited what viable openings a Protoss could use. Sentries are so powerful that if Gateway units were any good without them, Protoss would be broken early game. The same could actually be said for warp-gates really.
In the later stages of the game, Protoss are really too death-ball reliant, though Zealot drops and Dark Templars have become apparently valid forms of harassment.
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3. We won't nerf the medivac because Terran is not strong at the moment. Further nerfing the medivac will make Terran even weaker.
FUCK YEAH DAVID!
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On August 11 2013 22:53 Karpfen wrote:
i would really give +damage vs light to mutas
= more pain for toss because their workers would die even faster. you have to remember that toss struggles vs mass muta and buffing it vs terran means that they will destroy toss.
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Yeah dota 2 is really growing right now, and what is great is that the steam client itself is a free real time streaming tool with its observer mode oh so good you would throw sc2 away like diablo 3. I really wish blizz does something about this.
It is more exciting to see Sc2 improve its 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. Hell, they can just add the campain units in 3v3 and 4v4 and it would still be great for casual players to stay. The 1v1 ladder anxiety syndrome is really taking it's toll.
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On August 12 2013 23:19 woreyour wrote:
Yeah dota 2 is really growing right now, and what is great is that the steam client itself is a free real time streaming tool with its observer mode oh so good you would throw sc2 away like diablo 3. I really wish blizz does something about this.
It is more exciting to see Sc2 improve its 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. Hell, they can just add the campain units in 3v3 and 4v4 and it would still be great for casual players to stay. The 1v1 ladder anxiety syndrome is really taking it's toll.
It wouldn't even be hard to create a custom map that does 4v4 with campaign units, or even an option to pick what units you add to your tech tree at the start of the game. Problem is that Protoss doesn't have any campaign units.
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On August 12 2013 17:17 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 05:56 dutchfriese wrote:On August 12 2013 00:53 Reborn8u wrote:
He uses ladder data to support balance, and zerg winning championships as support of good balance. However, when protoss isn't winning nearly as many championships it's not because of balance, it's because protoss players aren't as good. Really David Kim?
So many tourneys loaded with protoss in the round of 32 and 16 and they drop like flys before it gets to semi's. it's a perfectly legitimate point. IMO protoss in WoL was the least innovative race and i say this because of the sentry. Since protoss depends so heavily on the sentry early game, it's created a higher learning curve for protoss players. I think toss could use a buff though, one buff I'd like to see implemented is the oracle starting with 1 armor (+1). Not necessarily a higher learning curve, let's just save it severely limited what viable openings a Protoss could use. Sentries are so powerful that if Gateway units were any good without them, Protoss would be broken early game. The same could actually be said for warp-gates really. In the later stages of the game, Protoss are really too death-ball reliant, though Zealot drops and Dark Templars have become apparently valid forms of harassment.
yes protoss would be broken which is why i said toss depends heavily on sentrys early game. I attest that because protoss is so reliant on sentries at the beginning of the game, it has actually slowed down protoss innovation in the end game, especially since many pro protoss players were consumed with immortal sentry all ins for quite some time.
On August 12 2013 23:19 woreyour wrote:
Yeah dota 2 is really growing right now, and what is great is that the steam client itself is a free real time streaming tool with its observer mode oh so good you would throw sc2 away like diablo 3. I really wish blizz does something about this.
It is more exciting to see Sc2 improve its 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. Hell, they can just add the campain units in 3v3 and 4v4 and it would still be great for casual players to stay. The 1v1 ladder anxiety syndrome is really taking it's toll.
I have to agree. The game needs to be more appealing to casual players in general and campaign units in team games seems like a pretty good way to do that.
On August 12 2013 23:43 TheFish7 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2013 23:19 woreyour wrote:
Yeah dota 2 is really growing right now, and what is great is that the steam client itself is a free real time streaming tool with its observer mode oh so good you would throw sc2 away like diablo 3. I really wish blizz does something about this.
It is more exciting to see Sc2 improve its 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. Hell, they can just add the campain units in 3v3 and 4v4 and it would still be great for casual players to stay. The 1v1 ladder anxiety syndrome is really taking it's toll. It wouldn't even be hard to create a custom map that does 4v4 with campaign units, or even an option to pick what units you add to your tech tree at the start of the game. Problem is that Protoss doesn't have any campaign units.
fair point. the lack of toss campaign units actually makes it a bad idea -_-
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Lurker would be useless but i'd love the impaler in multiplayer.
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Can you give us a quick summary of the contents of the comments or?
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On July 26 2013 14:21 Kim Hyuna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 26 2013 13:00 Kim Hyuna wrote:David Kim is an idiot. David Kim: Overall, Protoss is not weak. In a lot of Ro32, Protoss has a stable and high presence. This is not a problem of SC2. It seems like there are fewer top Protoss players out there, at least fewer than Terran and Zerg. So I think we need to look for more new top Protoss players, and then the situation will change. If the number is getting worse [for Protoss], then we will consider change some Protoss units. In addition, in Dreamhack, Stardust got the championship. WCS S1 NA had a lot of Protoss. These numbers make me relaxed. We already seen TOP protoss players playing inside KR. And almost zero success in taking one major title here in KR. Isn't  PartinG, Rain, First, MC etc top Protoss players? I don't see any NEW upcoming top protoss coming near. And, Stardust is playing against Foreigner and not TOP Z/T players from KR. And his win against JD is nothing HUGE because JD is known for his weakness in PvZ. What an idiot again. David Kim: I think, in WOL, Protoss's strategy was too narrowed. Basically you only need to turtle up for a big army and then win with one push. But now the situation is different. We add oracle for harassment and change the warp prism's speed. These give more choices for Protoss players. I hope we can see more competitive games. Isn't that what Protossers has been doing? It's either turtle up for one fucking push or 2 base all in. Oracle? It's a shit unit. Obviously he hates Protoss since WOL days. First and Rain are both relatively new to the top end scene (of SC2), and First still appears to have nerve issues. A lot of the Kespa protoss look great, which is why they are so strong in pro league. eSF protoss generally seem weak for some reason. You seem heavily biased in favor of protoss buffs. I am very biased in favor of protoss buffs. I have been saying Protoss need to be redesign or needs a major buff since WOL days. Overall results doesn't favor Protoss. Doesn't mean a protoss winning in foreigner tournament means protoss is fine. We have to look at major KR scene where the real top players came from and our local results. And this whining shit has gotten banned for a few times tho.
Yes, something needs to change. Protoss needs wins in Korea to be proven good. We haven't seen this. And the Kespa Protoss, the 6 dragons, are missing... Stork, Bisu, Best, Kal, Free. I only see JangBi once in a while.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Six_Dragons
Why is it that Flash, Fantasy, Innovation, Jaedong, and the like are doing just fine? Even Boxer did well before he went full coach. Could it be Protoss is the worst race, and unplayable by anybody who played Protoss in BW? Yes. It is the gimmick race. It is! MC was called SuicideToss in BW for a reason. And everybody will remember InCa for his embarrassing finals with Nestea. TL makes fun of him even in retirement.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=424021
Protoss can only win with gimmicks. It doesn't have to be this way. Blizzard needs to step up their design. Protoss needs agility and damage output. Protoss doesn't get harassment until the time Zerg and Terran can throw away workers in the form of spines and replacing them with MULES. Protoss has one unit that is slightly microable, and that is the stalker. THE WORST dps unit for cost in the game. Everything else is sluggish, unforgiving, high gas and high energy requirements. While Terran has unit control options in spades and econ flexibility to forgive the most atrocious errors. Terran can beat armies of banelings with marine splits, escape sure death with medevac boost, and heal an entire army back from red to win a game. Terran is so not based on econ the way P and Z are, they can scan 24 times in a game to kill 75 gas observers and never once consider making a raven. While Zerg just has larva inject to fall back on if they can make it to late game, and creep and floating supply to see the whole map.
Protoss is like a blind bull. Protoss listens from a distance with no vision, makes a best guess, then charges in hoping for the best.
Does Protoss need some love? You are damn fucking right they do.
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EPT
