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On July 17 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:36 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while. 29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them. No one is going to argue with you about the end of WoL. But since HotS is a new game, no one is going to accept that that matters in the current discussion, either. I could post all the time protoss hasn't won a GSL and claim it is proof the game is broken too, but thats not good data and proves nothing.
I posted HotS-only stats already.
Foreigner Zergs - 4x in the ro4, 2x in ro2
Protoss - 2x in the ro4, 1x ro2
Terran - 1x in the ro4 in the biggest upset since HotS launch.
That is far from "doing fine" in my eyes. I thought things would change since the last time this happened was in April 2012 and it's been a while.
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On July 17 2013 02:43 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:36 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while. 29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them. No one is going to argue with you about the end of WoL. But since HotS is a new game, no one is going to accept that that matters in the current discussion, either. I could post all the time protoss hasn't won a GSL and claim it is proof the game is broken too, but thats not good data and proves nothing. I posted HotS-only stats already. Foreigner Zergs - 4x in the ro4, 2x in ro2 Protoss - 2x in the ro4, 1x ro2 Terran - 1x in the ro4 in the biggest upset since HotS launch. That is far from "doing fine" in my eyes. I thought things would change since the last time this happened was in April 2012 and it's been a while.
These are all foreign terrans, correct? You are not counting Korean terrans.
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On July 17 2013 02:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:43 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:36 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while. 29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them. No one is going to argue with you about the end of WoL. But since HotS is a new game, no one is going to accept that that matters in the current discussion, either. I could post all the time protoss hasn't won a GSL and claim it is proof the game is broken too, but thats not good data and proves nothing. I posted HotS-only stats already. Foreigner Zergs - 4x in the ro4, 2x in ro2 Protoss - 2x in the ro4, 1x ro2 Terran - 1x in the ro4 in the biggest upset since HotS launch. That is far from "doing fine" in my eyes. I thought things would change since the last time this happened was in April 2012 and it's been a while. These are all foreign terrans, correct? You are not counting Korean terrans.
Yes, haven't you noticed the phrase "However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well" that started the whole discussion? I quoted in in my first post. Please focus.
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On July 17 2013 02:43 scypio wrote:
That is far from "doing fine" in my eyes. I thought things would change since the last time this happened was in April 2012 and it's been a while.
Why would things change into terrans favor?
After patch-zerg era we should count our blessings every day that zergs don't overrun foreign scene.
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On July 17 2013 02:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:43 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:36 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while. 29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them. No one is going to argue with you about the end of WoL. But since HotS is a new game, no one is going to accept that that matters in the current discussion, either. I could post all the time protoss hasn't won a GSL and claim it is proof the game is broken too, but thats not good data and proves nothing. I posted HotS-only stats already. Foreigner Zergs - 4x in the ro4, 2x in ro2 Protoss - 2x in the ro4, 1x ro2 Terran - 1x in the ro4 in the biggest upset since HotS launch. That is far from "doing fine" in my eyes. I thought things would change since the last time this happened was in April 2012 and it's been a while. These are all foreign terrans, correct? You are not counting Korean terrans.
To remove bias, removing Koreans is compulsory.
Same if I were to build a database of football strikers by country I would need to remove Cristiano Ronaldo from the list because he would skewer the statistics towards his country, making Portugal the country with the best football players in the world which is complete bullshit to anyone with a passing knowledge of the football scene.
The correct answer is Brazil by the way.
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On July 17 2013 02:49 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:45 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:43 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:36 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while. 29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them. No one is going to argue with you about the end of WoL. But since HotS is a new game, no one is going to accept that that matters in the current discussion, either. I could post all the time protoss hasn't won a GSL and claim it is proof the game is broken too, but thats not good data and proves nothing. I posted HotS-only stats already. Foreigner Zergs - 4x in the ro4, 2x in ro2 Protoss - 2x in the ro4, 1x ro2 Terran - 1x in the ro4 in the biggest upset since HotS launch. That is far from "doing fine" in my eyes. I thought things would change since the last time this happened was in April 2012 and it's been a while. These are all foreign terrans, correct? You are not counting Korean terrans. Yes, haven't you noticed the phrase "However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well" that started the whole discussion? I quoted in in my first post. Please focus.
And why are you only counting round of 4 as "good" when there are so many Korean players in the mix that you won't be including? The fact that they are in the brackets. Round of 16 in premire league seems like it would be more reasonable, or a least round of 8. I mean, in NA, Korean players were almost the entire round of 8 and we didn't even have our heavy hitting terrans in there.
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On July 17 2013 02:43 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:38 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:36 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while. 29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them. No one is going to argue with you about the end of WoL. But since HotS is a new game, no one is going to accept that that matters in the current discussion, either. I could post all the time protoss hasn't won a GSL and claim it is proof the game is broken too, but thats not good data and proves nothing. I posted HotS-only stats already. Foreigner Zergs - 4x in the ro4, 2x in ro2 Protoss - 2x in the ro4, 1x ro2 Terran - 1x in the ro4 in the biggest upset since HotS launch. That is far from "doing fine" in my eyes. I thought things would change since the last time this happened was in April 2012 and it's been a while.
It's rare enough that a foreigner gets to the semi-finals in a tournament. What I think we should look at to see if they are doing well, is something like top 16 at MLG, top 8 at DH, top 8 in WCS. If we only select off getting extremely deep, we have such a small sample, that it actually looks like: (foreiner) zerg = 4 +/- 2, protoss = 2 +/- 1.4, terran = 1 +/- 1. That looks pretty even to me. If however we start looking at a wider range, people like QXC and deMuslim start contributing for terran, and sase contributes for protoss (otherwise we are saying protoss are doing well just because naniwa plays protoss). And now we start getting multiple names of each race starting to appear.
And my original comment was that protoss *might* be struggling in korea. Sure, they are used a lot in proleague, but if we consider GSL/OSL, it doesn't look so great. So might is still the right word I think.
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Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
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On July 16 2013 20:23 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 05:38 SirPinky wrote:On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans. I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base. I don't agree and think terran has some of the most robust scouting in the game, including scans. Its not perfect, but what is? As a protoss, I have played blind when a terran has denied me the scouting information I need by sniping and obs. Or it arrives a second to late and you see half an army with no medivacs and you know that 2 of them are out there, comming for it. Once again, the grass is always greener. I am sure zergs could tell me how bad it is for them too and how hard it is to scout protoss all-in. I could tell stories about how many roach rushes I have lost to because both my scouting probes got picked off. Scan has many uses, and I really like it as Terran. However you can call it alot, but robust is not on that list. The area is early game simply too small not to be a coin flip. That's why similar to what others mentioned prefer to just use a mule and blindly make missile turrets. That is pretty much always a better idea than scanning and praying you see something useful. But you imply that Terran has some other very 'robust' scouting methods, care to inform us which they are?
100% agree, i'm not at all a mechanics-style player in terms of multitask so my 75 apm was mostly devoted to my macro (which was surprisingly good) when i played around the low master level. as a result i relied a lot on strategy to win. often when i lost i felt that i just could not get the info i needed to make a proper strategic decision.
then i played other races for a bit and realised that they simply have it a lot better when it comes to getting the information they need at a crucial period (7 to 10 min mark depending on build).
Zerg has the best scouting and scouting-denial by far. There is never a time as a Zerg player where I felt that getting info was a problem. By saccing 2 OLs around the 7 min mark I could tell what a terran goes for. And of course slings everywhere. Against protoss it is even worse, since I have a constant view of his gas income and boosts until SG tech.
Protoss scouting isn't good, but it's reliable in the sense that the chance for error is small as the observer is free to move about. Spending a potential 270 mins to snipe an observer may not always be the best option. Also you have to be really attentive to catch the observer if he's just trying to look at your tech. Hallucinations oracle blah blah.
Terran? Terran scouting after 6-7 minutes is like rolling a dice. BAM sometimes you see it all, sometimes you don't. You can poke with hellions or marines all you like but the only info you're getting is 1. if he's taken his expo(s) and 2. what units he has at the front. If your scan reveals a round of roaches hatching early then good on you, you've probably just defended the all-in. If not then how the fuck do you know what are in those eggs?
If you scan undersaturation at the natural/3rd then it must be an all-in, right? except maybe he could just be terrible or mindgaming you and has 25 drones in his main.
Simply put I'm very unhappy with early terran scouting options especially reapers as while they're slightly better now, they're also hit or miss by the time ling speed/stalkers are out. Whenever we see dominating Terrans (like bogus) nowadays it is almost entirely due to mechanics rather than some strategic planning. We know how "innovation" plays; he drops everywhere, expands on time, micros well, and makes a constant stream of units to pound you to death. He's great at many things, but strategy is not one of them.
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On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time.
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On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time.
Thanks for posting this. I looks like the only issue could be that foreign zergs do well compared to foreign terran and foreign toss. I guess the question is what unit is too unforgiving for zerg players. For example, if foreign zergs routinely build swarm hosts to win, then maybe a slight HP nerf would help make zerg a harder race to play for the less skilled players (not saying this is the correct case at all, but an example).
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What about floating a barracks to scout, especially vs Zerg? It's not more expensive than the 2 overlord example you give as Zerg. The only difference I see is that the overlords provide supply until they die scouting, while the barracks provides nothing of use while it's making the slow trip to the enemy base. Still, it will get you the information you need (what is being hatched by Zerg).
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On July 17 2013 03:35 archwaykitten wrote:
What about floating a barracks to scout, especially vs Zerg? It's not more expensive than the 2 overlord example you give as Zerg. The only difference I see is that the overlords provide supply until they die scouting, while the barracks provides nothing of use while it's making the slow trip to the enemy base. Still, it will get you the information you need (what is being hatched by Zerg).
The overlords cost larva and provide supply while they are making their way across the map, so they are more useful that a random rax. Also, the terran loses mining time while building. If they could build one without the SCV being tied up the entire time, it might be worth it.
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Instead of using our arbitrary tournament selections, our arbitrary round cut-offs and our arbitrary weightings, why not use Blizzard's official ranking instead?
Top 16 in WCS point standings has 8 (5 Korean/3 foreigners) Zerg, 5 (5/0) Terrans, 3 (3/0) Protoss.
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On July 17 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:35 archwaykitten wrote:
What about floating a barracks to scout, especially vs Zerg? It's not more expensive than the 2 overlord example you give as Zerg. The only difference I see is that the overlords provide supply until they die scouting, while the barracks provides nothing of use while it's making the slow trip to the enemy base. Still, it will get you the information you need (what is being hatched by Zerg). The overlords cost larva and provide supply while they are making their way across the map, so they are more useful that a random rax. Also, the terran loses mining time while building. If they could build one without the SCV being tied up the entire time, it might be worth it.
You only lose about 43 minerals from the SCV being tied up. So the total cost for the racks would be 193, still less than two overlords.
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On July 17 2013 03:41 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:35 archwaykitten wrote:
What about floating a barracks to scout, especially vs Zerg? It's not more expensive than the 2 overlord example you give as Zerg. The only difference I see is that the overlords provide supply until they die scouting, while the barracks provides nothing of use while it's making the slow trip to the enemy base. Still, it will get you the information you need (what is being hatched by Zerg). The overlords cost larva and provide supply while they are making their way across the map, so they are more useful that a random rax. Also, the terran loses mining time while building. If they could build one without the SCV being tied up the entire time, it might be worth it. You only lose about 43 minerals from the SCV being tied up. So the total cost for the racks would be 193, still less than two overlords.
But you don't get 16 supply. I am with you that it cost a lot, but that is like dumbing extra money into warpgates I might use for safety reasons. Its not a great plan as a whole.
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On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
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total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time.
Yeah I agree... this did not look bad before the nerf. That's why the fact that it went through is worrying.
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On July 17 2013 03:38 Aiobhill wrote:
Instead of using our arbitrary tournament selections, our arbitrary round cut-offs and our arbitrary weightings, why not use Blizzard's official ranking instead?
Top 16 in WCS point standings has 8 (5 Korean/3 foreigners) Zerg, 5 (5/0) Terrans, 3 (3/0) Protoss.
The problem with that, when trying to see which race is doing best/worst as foreignors, is by selecting top 16 you only get to see a total of 3 foreiners total. That is just so little that you can't get much information from it. Maybe if you took top 32/64, something much larger, then maybe we could get a better idea. Personally, I think the best way would be looking at Aligulac rankings. Those in my opinion (and I think most people would agree) are the most reliable (sure everything has its flaws, but this one seems to have the most accurate ratings, and unless someone can propose something better, we have to use what we have).
Anyway, foreiners: http://www.aligulac.com/periods/89/?page=1&sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=foreigners
Looks pretty even to me actually.
And Koreans: http://www.aligulac.com/periods/89/?page=1&sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=all
Looks a little barren of protoss, but I still think it looks alright.
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On July 17 2013 03:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:41 convention wrote:On July 17 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:35 archwaykitten wrote:
What about floating a barracks to scout, especially vs Zerg? It's not more expensive than the 2 overlord example you give as Zerg. The only difference I see is that the overlords provide supply until they die scouting, while the barracks provides nothing of use while it's making the slow trip to the enemy base. Still, it will get you the information you need (what is being hatched by Zerg). The overlords cost larva and provide supply while they are making their way across the map, so they are more useful that a random rax. Also, the terran loses mining time while building. If they could build one without the SCV being tied up the entire time, it might be worth it. You only lose about 43 minerals from the SCV being tied up. So the total cost for the racks would be 193, still less than two overlords. But you don't get 16 supply. I am with you that it cost a lot, but that is like dumbing extra money into warpgates I might use for safety reasons. Its not a great plan as a whole.
Most zergs will not sacrifice two overlords unless they have a feeling of a huge all-in that they need to scout. The real problem with racks scouting (in my opinion), is with zerg you can have two overlords by their base and choose to sacrifice the second if you want. As terran, you can't have a spare racks built by their base in the event you feel there is an all-in. Instead, you realize it later while poking with hellions, in which case you can't spend the time building a racks and floating it over.
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On July 17 2013 03:46 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
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WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
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total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time. Yeah I agree... this did not look bad before the nerf. That's why the fact that it went through is worrying.
That could be an issue, but still think Hellbats are scary as hell. They 3 shot workers in an AOE and are just as awesome with the upgrade. If Terran takes a dip due to the nerf, I will be the first to say they should be buffed in some way.
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EPT
