|
On July 17 2013 03:51 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:43 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:41 convention wrote:On July 17 2013 03:37 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:35 archwaykitten wrote:
What about floating a barracks to scout, especially vs Zerg? It's not more expensive than the 2 overlord example you give as Zerg. The only difference I see is that the overlords provide supply until they die scouting, while the barracks provides nothing of use while it's making the slow trip to the enemy base. Still, it will get you the information you need (what is being hatched by Zerg). The overlords cost larva and provide supply while they are making their way across the map, so they are more useful that a random rax. Also, the terran loses mining time while building. If they could build one without the SCV being tied up the entire time, it might be worth it. You only lose about 43 minerals from the SCV being tied up. So the total cost for the racks would be 193, still less than two overlords. But you don't get 16 supply. I am with you that it cost a lot, but that is like dumbing extra money into warpgates I might use for safety reasons. Its not a great plan as a whole. Most zergs will not sacrifice two overlords unless they have a feeling of a huge all-in that they need to scout. The real problem with racks scouting (in my opinion), is with zerg you can have two overlords by their base and choose to sacrifice the second if you want. As terran, you can't have a spare racks built by their base in the event you feel there is an all-in. Instead, you realize it later while poking with hellions, in which case you can't spend the time building a racks and floating it over.
That was the piece I was missing. Good point.
|
On July 17 2013 03:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:46 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time. Yeah I agree... this did not look bad before the nerf. That's why the fact that it went through is worrying. That could be an issue, but still think Hellbats are scary as hell. They 3 shot workers in an AOE and are just as awesome with the upgrade. If Terran takes a dip due to the nerf, I will be the first to say they should be buffed in some way.
hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off.
What you may see is a few top Terrans struggle more with TvT if they were doing a lot of hellbat play in that match up. To a lesser extent you could see a few struggle more with TvZ. I think the changes if anything may benefit some T players who were having difficulty in TvP.
|
On July 17 2013 04:13 Nerski wrote:
hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off.
But harassment timings are vital for terran.
Moreover even if win-rates don't suffer but mech play and hellbat usage dies off entirely is it an acceptable trade-off?
|
On July 17 2013 03:47 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:38 Aiobhill wrote:
Instead of using our arbitrary tournament selections, our arbitrary round cut-offs and our arbitrary weightings, why not use Blizzard's official ranking instead?
Top 16 in WCS point standings has 8 (5 Korean/3 foreigners) Zerg, 5 (5/0) Terrans, 3 (3/0) Protoss. The problem with that, when trying to see which race is doing best/worst as foreignors, is by selecting top 16 you only get to see a total of 3 foreiners total. That is just so little that you can't get much information from it. Maybe if you took top 32/64, something much larger, then maybe we could get a better idea. Personally, I think the best way would be looking at Aligulac rankings. Those in my opinion (and I think most people would agree) are the most reliable (sure everything has its flaws, but this one seems to have the most accurate ratings, and unless someone can propose something better, we have to use what we have). Anyway, foreiners: http://www.aligulac.com/periods/89/?page=1&sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=foreignersLooks pretty even to me actually. And Koreans: http://www.aligulac.com/periods/89/?page=1&sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=allLooks a little barren of protoss, but I still think it looks alright.
Fully agree, my post was meant as a comment on race balance foremost and foreigner skill/foreigner race balance as an afterthought. The pattern btw does not change significantly if you look at WCS point standings top
32: 14 (11/3) Z, 11 (10/1) T, 7 (5/2) P
68: 26 (15/11) Z, 23 (17/6) T, 19 (12/7) P
68 instead of 64 as 6 people are tied at 63.
Neither WCS Standings with BabyKnight ahead of Flash nor Aligulac with Bunny ahead of RorO is perfect, I just strongly resent using Proleague data with its wacko mappool, as I feel it is Blizzard's job to balance the game for it's own tournament and ladder maps, while third party tournament organizers either should use maps that reflect that balance, or have their results discounted when Blizzard is balancing.
|
On July 17 2013 04:17 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:13 Nerski wrote:
hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off. But harassment timings are vital for terran. Moreover even if win-rates don't suffer but mech play and hellbat usage dies off entirely is it an acceptable trade-off?
That is unlikely, given the nerf is not massive and only requires a 100/100 upgrade to go back to its old values. You just won't see them every single game.
|
On July 17 2013 04:13 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:52 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:46 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time. Yeah I agree... this did not look bad before the nerf. That's why the fact that it went through is worrying. That could be an issue, but still think Hellbats are scary as hell. They 3 shot workers in an AOE and are just as awesome with the upgrade. If Terran takes a dip due to the nerf, I will be the first to say they should be buffed in some way. hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off. What you may see is a few top Terrans struggle more with TvT if they were doing a lot of hellbat play in that match up. To a lesser extent you could see a few struggle more with TvZ. I think the changes if anything may benefit some T players who were having difficulty in TvP.
how in the world does hellbat getting nerfed and cloakshee getting buffed (both hellbat drop / cloakshee both getting countered by the same build: 1gate FE robo) benefit tvp??? bio players can no longer just reactor their factory after port and make hellbats so unless we went mech our midgame is LITERALLY like wol, or if we researched blue flame except obviously way harder to do damage in the main and natural due to photon overcharge
msc expo robo is literally the catch all build that blocks everything while being ahead against anything short of a 3 CC opening, it's absurd
|
On July 17 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:17 pmp10 wrote:On July 17 2013 04:13 Nerski wrote:
hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off. But harassment timings are vital for terran. Moreover even if win-rates don't suffer but mech play and hellbat usage dies off entirely is it an acceptable trade-off? That is unlikely, given the nerf is not massive and only requires a 100/100 upgrade to go back to its old values. You just won't see them every single game.
The point isn't in the cost of the upgrade but the delay of timing and the tech-lab requirement.
Hellbats never scaled well into lategame due to upgrades.
But I guess the discussion is pointless right now.
Next month meta-game will settle and we will see the final results.
|
I am a terran player and personally I think these changes are not only well though out but dynamically effective in all match ups. I'd say +1 blizzard for this one.....
|
On July 17 2013 04:32 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:13 Nerski wrote:On July 17 2013 03:52 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:46 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time. Yeah I agree... this did not look bad before the nerf. That's why the fact that it went through is worrying. That could be an issue, but still think Hellbats are scary as hell. They 3 shot workers in an AOE and are just as awesome with the upgrade. If Terran takes a dip due to the nerf, I will be the first to say they should be buffed in some way. hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off. What you may see is a few top Terrans struggle more with TvT if they were doing a lot of hellbat play in that match up. To a lesser extent you could see a few struggle more with TvZ. I think the changes if anything may benefit some T players who were having difficulty in TvP. how in the world does hellbat getting nerfed and cloakshee getting buffed (both hellbat drop / cloakshee both getting countered by the same build: 1gate FE robo) benefit tvp??? bio players can no longer just reactor their factory after port and make hellbats so unless we went mech our midgame is LITERALLY like wol, or if we researched blue flame except obviously way harder to do damage in the main and natural due to photon overcharge msc expo robo is literally the catch all build that blocks everything while being ahead against anything short of a 3 CC opening, it's absurd
i posted about this earlier in this thread and in another one
the reason i hate this change is because protoss were already going gate fe > robotics like you mention and relying on observers + msc to defend. that will defend well against both banshees as well as widow mine drops.
before if they went for robo before gates hellbat drops would do pretty good and mines would do worse
before if they went gates before robo hellbat drops wouldn't work as much (sometimes counter pressure kills Terran) but mine drops would be much stronger
after change the banshee and widow mine threat are nearly identical problems and have identical solutions. even in innovation vs sOs with prepatch hellbats we saw ZERO probe losses from sOs who used cannon/stalker/good probe micro. i see tvp korean rate plummeting with this change even if blizzard can't yet
|
On July 17 2013 04:32 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:13 Nerski wrote:On July 17 2013 03:52 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:46 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time. Yeah I agree... this did not look bad before the nerf. That's why the fact that it went through is worrying. That could be an issue, but still think Hellbats are scary as hell. They 3 shot workers in an AOE and are just as awesome with the upgrade. If Terran takes a dip due to the nerf, I will be the first to say they should be buffed in some way. hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off. What you may see is a few top Terrans struggle more with TvT if they were doing a lot of hellbat play in that match up. To a lesser extent you could see a few struggle more with TvZ. I think the changes if anything may benefit some T players who were having difficulty in TvP. how in the world does hellbat getting nerfed and cloakshee getting buffed (both hellbat drop / cloakshee both getting countered by the same build: 1gate FE robo) benefit tvp??? bio players can no longer just reactor their factory after port and make hellbats so unless we went mech our midgame is LITERALLY like wol, or if we researched blue flame except obviously way harder to do damage in the main and natural due to photon overcharge msc expo robo is literally the catch all build that blocks everything while being ahead against anything short of a 3 CC opening, it's absurd
just isn't true, watch the gumiho games from yesterday. He puts on a clinic of how to play aggressive tvp.
|
On July 17 2013 09:37 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:32 KawaiiRice wrote:On July 17 2013 04:13 Nerski wrote:On July 17 2013 03:52 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:46 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 03:19 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:08 scypio wrote:Well, here is ro8 summary:
P T Z
------------------------------
WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0)
IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1)
MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0)
WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3)
DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1)
WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2)
WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0)
DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1)
HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3)
MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0)
------------------------------
total 26(4) 25(4) 29(11)
That doesn't look that bad at all. Seems pretty even for all three races most of the time. Yeah I agree... this did not look bad before the nerf. That's why the fact that it went through is worrying. That could be an issue, but still think Hellbats are scary as hell. They 3 shot workers in an AOE and are just as awesome with the upgrade. If Terran takes a dip due to the nerf, I will be the first to say they should be buffed in some way. hellbat/banshee nerf and buff really only effects the early game. To be totally honest I don't think you saw a lot of top placing terrans in tournaments relying on all these early game pushes to secure victories. Not going to say they didn't help but top players can adjust to something like hellbat drops not being as powerful and do just fine. I'd find it highly unlikely you see good top terrans suddenly fall off. What you may see is a few top Terrans struggle more with TvT if they were doing a lot of hellbat play in that match up. To a lesser extent you could see a few struggle more with TvZ. I think the changes if anything may benefit some T players who were having difficulty in TvP. how in the world does hellbat getting nerfed and cloakshee getting buffed (both hellbat drop / cloakshee both getting countered by the same build: 1gate FE robo) benefit tvp??? bio players can no longer just reactor their factory after port and make hellbats so unless we went mech our midgame is LITERALLY like wol, or if we researched blue flame except obviously way harder to do damage in the main and natural due to photon overcharge msc expo robo is literally the catch all build that blocks everything while being ahead against anything short of a 3 CC opening, it's absurd just isn't true, watch the gumiho games from yesterday. He puts on a clinic of how to play aggressive tvp.
game 1 gumiho proxies 1 rax reaper + proxy mines, then pigbaby sends his msc across the map to poke repairing scvs instead of using photon overcharge to wipe the reaper/hellion/mine pressure. terrible example.
game 2 gumiho does a proxy reactor mine -> 1 reaper -> 4 hellion opener
first reaper and two mines kill literally 1 zealot which shouldn't have died.
then pigbaby doesn't block his ramp with his 2 stalkers letting 4 hellions in his main to kill 9 probes
then he doesn't get a sentry at all for a while instead having 3 observers and floating resources and having stalkers out of position letting hellions run by over and over for no reason. it's not like gumiho was doing some sort of multitask to distract pigbaby from being in position either.
honestly terrible examples where the P clearly had the tools to hold with minimal damage and mispositioned ridiculously.
|
On July 17 2013 04:32 KawaiiRice wrote:
msc expo robo is literally the catch all build that blocks everything while being ahead against anything short of a 3 CC opening, it's absurd
Saying that only 3CC is ahead of what's becoming the standard Toss build is what's absurd, especially seeing as we often see Terran opening up without a fast 3rd CC and then being ahead in supply and economy whilst beating Toss to a third (occassionally being merely equal in supply whilst going past Toss in upgrades, although this is less common as Toss is going to catch up pretty quickly with chrono).
If Toss is getting ahead of you it's because you are letting them Protoss needs more tech, which means they won't have as big an army/as good an economy (one or the other usually, but both if you harass well enough).
|
On July 17 2013 13:23 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:32 KawaiiRice wrote:
msc expo robo is literally the catch all build that blocks everything while being ahead against anything short of a 3 CC opening, it's absurd Saying that only 3CC is ahead of what's becoming the standard Toss build is what's absurd, especially seeing as we often see Terran opening up without a fast 3rd CC and then being ahead in supply and economy whilst beating Toss to a third (occassionally being merely equal in supply whilst going past Toss in upgrades, although this is less common as Toss is going to catch up pretty quickly with chrono). If Toss is getting ahead of you it's because you are letting them Protoss needs more tech, which means they won't have as big an army/as good an economy (one or the other usually, but both if you harass well enough).
regardless, protoss can commit to tech or more econ and they both pay off pretty well
if you watched Woongjin stars vs KT, you will see that all protoss cut probes in their PvT's at exactly 44, in every game.
it's not that protoss can get an econ lead extremely easily, it's that they dont need one and can cut probes for 5 + minutes, then start a third (Puzzle on korhal floating island, during this game he had a 22 kill oracle also, yet he still cut probes for unit production, then took a third without overmaking probes)
|
I am no GM or anything, but seeing the flying factory again is just depressing. Instead of the banshee buff, I would have rather had the siege tank nerf reverted ;D.
|
On July 19 2013 19:36 Rammstorm wrote:
I am no GM or anything, but seeing the flying factory again is just depressing. Instead of the banshee buff, I would have rather had the siege tank nerf reverted ;D.
Took the words right from my heart. But tbh I think this is very very similiar to when blue flame got nerfed and people stopped meching back in wol. Mech should still work, and the second you get blue flame be superior to bio, the issue is that nerfs have more of an impact than just changing numbers in the game, so especially in the foreign community we may see a lot of marine/tank (which makes me wanna puke tbh)...
I really fail to see how a) they couldn't buff hellbat defense for T as that was the only major issue and b) why nerfing a factory unit justifies randomly buffing a starport unit just for the sake of buffing something. I really wish they wouldn't just do whatever seems to be all right, we have seen so many retarded changes that are still in this game and are still so random (tank nerf due to steps of war, blue flame nerf just because noone used it before and people had trouble adjusting, nerfing 4 gate 5 more times after it was already fine on pro level, buffing queen range to 5 etc. pp.). I just really enjoy the fact that bw wasn't made by the same people as star 2 so hopefully star 3 will be made by different people too.
|
So... Hellbats suffered a 40% damage nerf vs. light to all hellbats until a 110s research (Blue Flame) completes in exchange for faster cloak on a unit that only hits single units? Seriously?
It's like mutas get a damage nerf requiring research but in return get cheaper burrow research speed.
|
On July 19 2013 21:37 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
So... Hellbats suffered a 40% damage nerf vs. light to all hellbats until a 110s research (Blue Flame) completes in exchange for faster cloak on a unit that only hits single units? Seriously?
It's like mutas get a damage nerf requiring research but in return get cheaper burrow research speed.
If Hellbats cost 100 gas each, I am sure we would have been fine with the amount of damage they did.
|
Hellbats were stupid. They were removing hellions from the game, they are bio and too cost-effective. Blue flame thing is a step in the right direction. But, although I love cloackshees. They are a lots of cons about this change, especially in TvP.
The timing where hellbats were a really nice addition in your army is heavily delayed. And you can't afford them + ghosts when the toss army has all his tech and start to use mass chargelott. Making TvP the same stupid thing it has been in WoL. I never used hellbats drops before 12/13 minutes into a game, but this patch affects me a lot, and lots of other Terrans aswell (master 1000+ pts). Coz i don't have the micro needed to survive the 13 to 16 minutes TvP timing to survive until I have a Maraudeur/Hellbat/Viking/Ghost composition.
By watching pro games, and talking with other terrans: the same stupid WoL-end is happening again: Scv pull before storm. Yepee...
|
hellbats are still good for tvz frontal attacks
|
On July 19 2013 22:03 MTAC wrote:
Hellbats were stupid. They were removing hellions from the game, they are bio and too cost-effective. Blue flame thing is a step in the right direction. But, although I love cloackshees. They are a lots of cons about this change, especially in TvP.
The timing where hellbats were a really nice addition in your army is heavily delayed. And you can't afford them + ghosts when the toss army has all his tech and start to use mass chargelott. Making TvP the same stupid thing it has been in WoL. I never used hellbats drops before 12/13 minutes into a game, but this patch affects me a lot, and lots of other Terrans aswell (master 1000+ pts). Coz i don't have the micro needed to survive the 13 to 16 minutes TvP timing to survive until I have a Maraudeur/Hellbat/Viking/Ghost composition.
By watching pro games, and talking with other terrans: the same stupid WoL-end is happening again: Scv pull before storm. Yepee...
You know the SCV pull before storm has been commonplace throughout HotS too? It's an extremely strong all-in if you get a good read when storm is finishing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
