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On July 20 2013 04:40 UPro-BW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 01:18 MTAC wrote:
That's not the problem of one player, like you said. Without speaking of balance problem, there are a lots of terran complaining about the lack of terran possibility in the early game. they can bait a nexus cannon. That's about everything.
From the toss perspective, it's an hellbat drop threat. Terran have to guess which agression it is. Some things helps you like chronoboosting usage, but sometimes it can be 50/50 even with theses tricks. And whatever happens, you need to overcommit in defense. And that alone can let the Toss go back to a macrogame ezpz. The only thing "funny" for a terran in TvP right now is to dodge storm. Apart for that. It's "guess what all-in it is". Then "hope he can't defend multidrops/runbys". Then "all-in, coz otherwise i'm f***ed".
The Match-up is balance or not, i don't care, I really don't. But the match-up is retarded. And from the beginning of wol, people have said it. from Bronze to GM league. tvp is just absurd match up. A summary of grandmaster terrans thought on this matchup: "protoss can do whatever he wants" - Empire.Kas "Blink stalker all-in and other lottery strats allows inferior players to win" - Downfall " MSC expand is superior to any terran BO except 3 CC" - KawaiiRice "Terran is at disadvantage at all stages of the game" - Avilo "Protoss imba!" - Sjow "go 2 base or 3 base allin" - Ver on terran help me thread "Blizzard should just remove this race from the game" - IdrA I think these guys have a point here.. but maybe they are all wrong ,and everything is fine in tvp, since 70 eapm plansix can't use more than 2 control groups to defend multidrops
You quoted Idra when talking about PvT. You also quote Avilo, which is questionable at best.
And I can quote a bunch of GM protosses that think PvT is fine. Do I win the argument if I do? Do I need more GM protoss players?
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In his State of the Game interview, David Kim said that Korean Terrans were complaining about Protoss
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On July 20 2013 04:53 Rhaegal wrote:In his State of the Game interview, David Kim said that Korean Terrans were complaining about Protoss
oh I guess 40, 45 and 50% winrates on 3 widely used maps isn't bad enough need moar nerfz. Revert siege tank nerf and terran is fine. the unit has plenty of counters
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TvP is absurd. But quoting things like Toss imba is not my point.
Terran have strong options, and when you get to pro-level or near pro-level mechanics, terrans have their chance. Even if even for pros it's IMO the most stressfull thing in any TvX match-up. Below theses mechanics, when Toss have all his tech tree, it's just so much harder for the T point of view that no Terrans want to have theses fights and SCV train.
Removing all agression except proxy mine cheeses from the T is IMO nonsense. BW was a great game because games weren't stale an even one base play was used in a lots of competitive games. But apart from that, the bests cheeses/all-ins and the easier controled lategame army being on the same side? Nonsense. I'd be happy to do something else than SCV train all my PvT, really.
But my micro and my multitasking skills allows me to win with bio against mech in TvT. It allows me to win versus Zerg with any of their compositions. I loose games. but i always can say why. When it comes to PvT it's: "Well, i should have killed him before".
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On July 20 2013 04:53 Rhaegal wrote:In his State of the Game interview, David Kim said that Korean Terrans were complaining about Protoss
And he used that as an example of how opinions shift because everyone was complaining about mine drops a little while before. There was context to that quote.
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I just hate the MSC core. It has 3 of the strongest abilities in the game, and it's has a 30 second build time and is made so early on in the game. Nexus cannon made so many Terran all ins and cheeses obsolete, while Protoss actually gained all ins and cheeses, all of which quite strong.
My other complaints, mostly about Collosos/ht and chargelot warp ins, are just your typical below-GM Terran complaints because I don't have the micro to ever beat a lategame Toss army.
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Korean only winrates in June. http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png
Anyone can link stats to support their claim. But, I think you should contribute more so we can actually have a discussion
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Except you took a specific winrate when I have the lifetime percentages. If you can't see the difference there I don't want to have a discussion with you lmao
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On July 20 2013 05:01 Rhaegal wrote:
I just hate the MSC core. It has 3 of the strongest abilities in the game, and it's has a 30 second build time and is made so early on in the game. Nexus cannon made so many Terran all ins and cheeses obsolete, while Protoss actually gained all ins and cheeses, all of which quite strong.
My other complaints, mostly about Collosos/ht and chargelot warp ins, are just your typical below-GM Terran complaints because I don't have the micro to ever beat a lategame Toss army.
The time warp might need to be pulled back a bit or cost more, to keep agression valid. I think the cannon is fine without timewarp as well.
As for dealing with late game protss, I would only say that forcing the protoss to move their army is very good, since all their shit moves at different speeds, climbs cliffs and so forth. Never forget that HTs move as fast as thors. As long as you don't attack into them(which is what every protoss dreams about), you should be able eat up some of their APM. Protoss hate moving their army around if they have all three AOE dealers(colossi, Archons and HTs) and it always leads to something being out of place.
At least that is what I hate to do, but I am not masters.
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Fact is than in WoL half of PvT games ended with some SCV train. In HotS, hellbats allowed you to compete against Storm/HT a lot more easily. Fact that it's not the case anymore, or not at the same timing. So we're seeing SCV train again.
Fact is the Terran can't do any agression before the 10 minutes mark. Fact is that Toss had plenty. Balanced or not: I DON'T CARE ! It is just retarded.
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On July 20 2013 05:06 VayneAuthority wrote:
Except you took a specific winrate when I have the lifetime percentages. If you can't see the difference there I don't want to have a discussion with you lmao
I honestly have no idea why you linked those things, or even what point you were trying to prove...
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4713 Posts
How the hell are people still complaining about TvP mid and late game still?
Seriously ever since Mvp won GSL S2 in 2012 I've never, ever considered Protoss imba, yes they have a huge number of possible all-ins, probably more then the other two races put together, yes they have terrible, terrible damage, no they are not unbeatable.
Good positioning, good control and good harassment, from what I'm seeing is still allowing terrans the possibility to fight against protoss toe to toe. Yes its hard, probably harder then TvT or TvZ to some extents, but I don't see as insurmountably difficult, all I see is lots of complaining still.
Coming from a terran, I still don't see evidence the MU is broken.
I will concede however that, there might be something wrong with protoss, the race as a whole, I can't put my finger on it but, it just seems easier at the lower levels but for some reason just can't rise to the same levels as the other races. Despite the huge damage outputs and absurd variety of cheeses, pressures and all-ins, protoss, fundamentally, has some huge flaws, probably in its design, that doesn't allow its players to consistently perform at the highest level.
And I refuse to believe Protoss players are somehow more incompetent then their Terran or Zerg counterparts.
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I don´t think TvP is a terrible matchup for terran. The problem I have with it is Protoss has a lot of working TvP strategies, you can open every techpath (stargate, Robo, Twilight) and go for all ins (immortal bust, Blinkstalker etc) or open greedy for a marko game.
Terran is currently very limited in their choices (lets be honest mech is not realy an option). Early pressure or all ins are easily shut down by nexus canon. I would guess more then 90% of terran games are completly the same.
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On July 20 2013 06:17 Destructicon wrote:
How the hell are people still complaining about TvP mid and late game still?
Seriously ever since Mvp won GSL S2 in 2012 I've never, ever considered Protoss imba, yes they have a huge number of possible all-ins, probably more then the other two races put together, yes they have terrible, terrible damage, no they are not unbeatable.
Good positioning, good control and good harassment, from what I'm seeing is still allowing terrans the possibility to fight against protoss toe to toe. Yes its hard, probably harder then TvT or TvZ to some extents, but I don't see as insurmountably difficult, all I see is lots of complaining still.
Coming from a terran, I still don't see evidence the MU is broken.
I will concede however that, there might be something wrong with protoss, the race as a whole, I can't put my finger on it but, it just seems easier at the lower levels but for some reason just can't rise to the same levels as the other races. Despite the huge damage outputs and absurd variety of cheeses, pressures and all-ins, protoss, fundamentally, has some huge flaws, probably in its design, that doesn't allow its players to consistently perform at the highest level.
And I refuse to believe Protoss players are somehow more incompetent then their Terran or Zerg counterparts.
its because of how the race was designed, the same was true to a lesser extent in broodwar. it is a less mechanically demanding race and more intelligence demanding race.
80% of protoss is about mindgaming your opponent, that shit doesn't work as well as you play against better and better players because they actually scout and know pretty much every possible thing you can do.
They lack the raw power of the other 2 races but more than make up for it with their ability to cheese/win with the proper tech reactions/ and general annoying play.
and yea I have been saying this for a while, terran is in a terrible spot design wise right now. The fact that bio is preferred in almost all of their matchups is god awful. Mech needs more concrete units as they are pretty much either harass or joke units atm.
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I'll try to write down my take on the current state of Terran vs Protoss in a proper manner. First of all I am very well aware that balance should happen on the highest level (I'm high master/low-mid gm at best) and I can point out mistakes in my Terran vs Protoss, which doesn't mean there are no points I can adress.
Currently, Protoss gained a defensive tool with the mothershipcore that in itself and with its defensive ability is no harm to the match up in my opinion. The harm occurs when you take into account that the mothershipcore allows for insanely punishing things. It grants vision to a 10gate aggression which could be stopped easily in WoL as you cannot attack the wall without vision, it allows for blink-allin without the use of a sentry or robotics.
Photon overcharge is great and a nice defensive option, I don't mind it (at all). If there is a chance for Protoss to play greedy and a lesser chance to get punished for it, I can actually deal with it. What I cannot deal with is that the option in itself isn't given to Terran. Terran can play greedy, but any aggression by Protoss can and often will spell doom for you.
This doesn't need to be one-base play but it can be: Warpprism / Blinkstalker - Ramp block. It can be 5 gate, 6 gate. It can be immortal busts or 2 base colosuss allin. It can be stargate / warpgate busts. There are plenty of options which will punish greed of the Terran and potentially end the game.
Being greedy in itself should bare a risk, even when I'm saying I can deal with a Protoss getting away with being greedy and not taking a huge risk, while I cant. Right now due to the aggression potential of Protoss, Terrans fear to be greedy themselves resulting in a midgame weakness compared to Protoss. The greedy of the early game paid of and even with a delayed thirdbase, you are actually ahead ingame.
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On July 20 2013 06:25 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 06:17 Destructicon wrote:
How the hell are people still complaining about TvP mid and late game still?
Seriously ever since Mvp won GSL S2 in 2012 I've never, ever considered Protoss imba, yes they have a huge number of possible all-ins, probably more then the other two races put together, yes they have terrible, terrible damage, no they are not unbeatable.
Good positioning, good control and good harassment, from what I'm seeing is still allowing terrans the possibility to fight against protoss toe to toe. Yes its hard, probably harder then TvT or TvZ to some extents, but I don't see as insurmountably difficult, all I see is lots of complaining still.
Coming from a terran, I still don't see evidence the MU is broken.
I will concede however that, there might be something wrong with protoss, the race as a whole, I can't put my finger on it but, it just seems easier at the lower levels but for some reason just can't rise to the same levels as the other races. Despite the huge damage outputs and absurd variety of cheeses, pressures and all-ins, protoss, fundamentally, has some huge flaws, probably in its design, that doesn't allow its players to consistently perform at the highest level.
And I refuse to believe Protoss players are somehow more incompetent then their Terran or Zerg counterparts. its because of how the race was designed, the same was true to a lesser extent in broodwar. it is a less mechanically demanding race and more intelligence demanding race. 80% of protoss is about mindgaming your opponent, that shit doesn't work as well as you play against better and better players because they actually scout and know pretty much every possible thing you can do. They lack the raw power of the other 2 races but more than make up for it with their ability to cheese/win with the proper tech reactions/ and general annoying play. and yea I have been saying this for a while, terran is in a terrible spot design wise right now. The fact that bio is preferred in almost all of their matchups is god awful. Mech needs more concrete units as they are pretty much either harass or joke units atm.
I realize you cannot answer, but saying Protoss lacks the power of the other 2 races is blatantly wrong. Protoss 2-base allins are feared and rightfully so, they are insanely hard to stop even with scouting information.
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EPT
