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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On July 17 2013 04:42 Pirfiktshon wrote: I am a terran player and personally I think these changes are not only well though out but dynamically effective in all match ups. I'd say +1 blizzard for this one..... How is the hellbat nerf and banshee buff effective in TvP, if I may ask? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On July 19 2013 23:04 convention wrote: You know the SCV pull before storm has been commonplace throughout HotS too? It's an extremely strong all-in if you get a good read when storm is finishing. You missed his point, it's now the ONLY build he feels comfortable doing. And it's the same for a lot of progamers. If you think to yourself, would you prefer hellbats mixed into your composition or scv pulls allins every game? | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On July 19 2013 23:04 convention wrote: You know the SCV pull before storm has been commonplace throughout HotS too? It's an extremely strong all-in if you get a good read when storm is finishing. It just became more common - with every day passing by you will see more of the scv pulls and less end-game transitions from Terran. If the transition is too likely to fail it is better to all-in. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 19 2013 23:50 Ghanburighan wrote: You missed his point, it's now the ONLY build he feels comfortable doing. And it's the same for a lot of progamers. If you think to yourself, would you prefer hellbats mixed into your composition or scv pulls allins every game? But that has always been a really strong timing against protoss, since they have so much gas banked up in storm and the HTs to cast it. Just because it feels easier than trying to work Hellbats into your composition doesn't mean there is something wrong. There are plenty of points in other match ups where it feels easier to all-in than continue with a macro game. | ||
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maXX_CZ
Czech Republic19 Posts
Well Terran is the most technical and least forgiving of the 3 races so its no wonder that people get the impression that its harder to play. As someone whos played all 3 races to master level, my Protoss win rates were always around 65-70% while my Terran and Zerg lagged way behind. I really only watch Terran streams and practice it much more than the other races yet it still remains much more difficult to maintain a high win % for me as Terran than Protoss. I have a bunch of friends who play SC2 at a very casual level (don't follow the scene or current metagame at all) and even they all immediately identified Protoss as the easiest race to play and Terran as the hardest. This is just my personal experience, so it definitely doesnt mean its fact but I think theres some truth to it because you see so many people of all different skill levels coming to the same conclusion. I can sign this! And what is worse. Who (to be honest) cares about that 2% of pro games. This is mainly problem in lower leagues, due to lack of APM and right scouting. I am dia/master terran. I used to be beaten by protosses with ingame APM reaching only(!) 60. If i play zerg or terran with these apms i crush them WITH EASE. Fair? I dont think so. All in all (esp in higher leagues) apm makes the difference between players, not understanding of game/builds anymore. I dont agree with statement that each race has its easy and hard matchup. I see TvZ and TvT quite fair (TvZ is boring because u cant mech, but w/e), BUT TvP is just.... I remember back in the days i was able at least from time to time go for some 1-1-1 push and it was decent. I favor pressure games, where something happens (also to watch) than stupid 3cc macro into who will have luck with his storm/emp shots (control is not usually that good to call it else on both sides). And composition? I have 6 vikings more? I am dead. I have 6 vikings less, i am dead. Hes not going colossus at all, skipping it, didnt see it for 2 minutes.... i am dead. Protoss even without ANY scouting know exactly my army composition at any time, its just his option to choose what composition will he use. And that is NOT FAIR AT ALL. And nothing changed from WoL for me. Except as someone wisely wrote toss can be even greedier now cause of MSC. And banshee? Ah cmoon, havent seen single toss without robo yet. You only hope he wont have at least 1 observer at home so you kill 4-5probes in time + compare the DPS to oracles, just... lol. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On July 20 2013 00:25 maXX_CZ wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well Terran is the most technical and least forgiving of the 3 races so its no wonder that people get the impression that its harder to play. As someone whos played all 3 races to master level, my Protoss win rates were always around 65-70% while my Terran and Zerg lagged way behind. I really only watch Terran streams and practice it much more than the other races yet it still remains much more difficult to maintain a high win % for me as Terran than Protoss. I have a bunch of friends who play SC2 at a very casual level (don't follow the scene or current metagame at all) and even they all immediately identified Protoss as the easiest race to play and Terran as the hardest. This is just my personal experience, so it definitely doesnt mean its fact but I think theres some truth to it because you see so many people of all different skill levels coming to the same conclusion. I can sign this! And what is worse. Who (to be honest) cares about that 2% of pro games. This is mainly problem in lower leagues, due to lack of APM and right scouting. I am dia/master terran. I used to be beaten by protosses with ingame APM reaching only(!) 60. If i play zerg or terran with these apms i crush them WITH EASE. Fair? I dont think so. All in all (esp in higher leagues) apm makes the difference between players, not understanding of game/builds anymore. I dont agree with statement that each race has its easy and hard matchup. I see TvZ and TvT quite fair (TvZ is boring because u cant mech, but w/e), BUT TvP is just.... I remember back in the days i was able at least from time to time go for some 1-1-1 push and it was decent. I favor pressure games, where something happens (also to watch) than stupid 3cc macro into who will have luck with his storm/emp shots (control is not usually that good to call it else on both sides). And composition? I have 6 vikings more? I am dead. I have 6 vikings less, i am dead. Hes not going colossus at all, skipping it, didnt see it for 2 minutes.... i am dead. Protoss even without ANY scouting know exactly my army composition at any time, its just his option to choose what composition will he use. And that is NOT FAIR AT ALL. And nothing changed from WoL for me. Except as someone wisely wrote toss can be even greedier now cause of MSC. And banshee? Ah cmoon, havent seen single toss without robo yet. You only hope he wont have at least 1 observer at home so you kill 4-5probes in time + compare the DPS to oracles, just... lol. TvP is by far my worst matchup, because it's so different from the other ones. TvT is about macro/positioning, TvZ is almost purely a mechanics war, but TvP seems like it's about composition, perfect engagements, and perfect micro... so it's frustrating for me at times (63% TvZ and 40% TvP lifetime in HOTS) but as long as there are pro's out there that are performing well in TvP I won't let it get me down because it can be done. However, this patch did confuse me, as it is a direct nerf to TvP with no compensation. (banshees remain unusable) | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
e. g. -mix in early ghosts? -go mech? -abuse some stargate tech? Terrans play way more WoL-Style than Protoss or Zerg does, thus, Terrans are much easier to figure out cause people have played for years against this style. While Terrans obviously have only a limited experiance against the new HotS options of P/Z | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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MTAC
103 Posts
There are plenty of points in other match ups where it feels easier to all-in than continue with a macro game. Maybe, but when the difference in winrates between "all-in X" against "macro-game play" is so different and came with an increasing difficulty about 200%. There is a problem. For the SCV pull, you just need to know the right time for you to do it. (takes me lots of failed game, coz i never used it, back in wol i was all-ining toss in other way FAR FAR sooner, or i used Reaper/Ghost/marauder transition.) This MU maybe is balanced, but the game design of it is really, really bad. Even worse than in WoL imo, coz now apart from reaper, the Terran don't really have choice before stim&medivacs are out. The ghost + Bio timing seems worse than before. Tanks still sucks hard. It's all going for an even more turtling game coz of MsC (that can be cool in PvP i agree). It's really really bad design when in one Match-up, one side has to be worry as hell for the first 10 minutes. Can win the game the next five, and have to be worry again until the end of the game. Edit: What i'd like to have, if they want pure bio to continue being cool is a new upgrade allowing old reaper damage vs light. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 20 2013 00:35 MTAC wrote: Maybe, but when the difference in winrates between "all-in X" against "macro-game play" is so different and came with an increasing difficulty about 200%. There is a problem. For the SCV pull, you just need to know the right time for you to do it. (takes me lots of failed game, coz i never used it, back in wol i was all-ining toss in other way FAR FAR sooner, or i used Reaper/Ghost/marauder transition.) This MU maybe is balanced, but the game design of it is really, really bad. Even worse than in WoL imo, coz now apart from reaper, the Terran don't really have choice before stim&medivacs are out. The ghost + Bio timing seems worse than before. Tanks still sucks hard. It's all going for an even more turtling game coz of MsC (that can be cool in PvP i agree). It's really really bad design when in one Match-up, one side has to be worry as hell for the first 10 minutes. Can win the game the next five, and have to be worry again until the end of the game. That sounds like a problem with a specific player more than a race. I personally am scared of terrans in the first 10 minutes of the game and even with the MSC, I still can get knocked onto my back foot in that time period. But I know there are protoss who love that time and love to fake the terran out with weird builds. But I could give two shits about zerg in the first 10 minutes because I am pretty good at holding off and scouting dumb all-ins. Some people are better at some match ups than others. I am better at any match up when I can use a stargate. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On July 20 2013 00:31 freetgy wrote: may be change up your composition, to not make it predicable for what you are going then? e. g. -mix in early ghosts? -go mech? -abuse some stargate tech? Terrans play way more WoL-Style than Protoss or Zerg does, thus, Terrans are much easier to figure out cause people have played for years against this style. While Terrans obviously have only a limited experiance against the new HotS options of P/Z They tried doing something different (hellbat marauder timings) and they got nerfed. Widow mines suck vs protoss, mech gets rolled by a ton of timings and banshees are useless with detection on every tech path. Yeah, we've all heard the "you need to innovate" chant before. The problem is that when T does it it gets nerfed. There you have it, it's back to WoL. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
maybe terran players will open up to nerfs more core units to in exchange for buffs to balance mech and bio out and making it equally viable options then. | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On July 20 2013 00:31 freetgy wrote: may be change up your composition, to not make it predicable for what you are going then? e. g. -mix in early ghosts? -go mech? -abuse some stargate tech? Edit: this is not a balance whine i'm just stating some things restricting terran strategy/ composition. Not saying terran can't beat protoss etc,... Terrans play way more WoL-Style than Protoss or Zerg does, thus, Terrans are much easier to figure out cause people have played for years against this style. While Terrans obviously have only a limited experiance against the new HotS options of P/Z That's because terran didn't really change too much. We got widow mines but we all know that they kinda blow for tvp since toss units are so bulky and tanky. It's like using widowmines against roaches in tvz. Hellbats are really cool and terrans have tried to add them to the composition but now with the nerf I feel as if that is being discouraged and that blizzard is really boxing terran into the standard woL compositions. Mixing in early ghosts is hella expensive for no real reason unless they rushed HT archon. 200/100 + you need it coming out of a tech lab rax? not really worth the investment on 2 base. There's also not much you can do if you dont' pull scvs off 2 base now in tvp with the mscore being able to stop a medivac full of bio equivalent of supply by itself. Mech is laughable as every protoss unit does okay against seige tanks: Chargelots, blink, immortal.... hell even colossus can kill seige tanks. Give seige tanks buff vs massive plz. Again the hellbat nerf does not help this. The only thing that I can possibly see is using ravens and marines together as a new meta but that's we've been speculating about raven tactics in tvp for years now with no progress. | ||
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Irre
United States646 Posts
Just currently it feels like greedy (aka standard/forced) terran play is basically flat out hard countered by simple decisions from protoss or zerg they can make reactively, especially at lower than GM levels. And harassment keeps getting nerfed so the investment puts terrans behind if the zerg/protoss is somewhat competent. As is, there is no way that winrates are going to hold up, particularly in the foreign scene. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 20 2013 01:07 fighter2_40 wrote: That's because terran didn't really change too much. We got widow mines but we all know that they kinda blow for tvp since toss units are so bulky and tanky. It's like using widowmines against roaches in tvz. Hellbats are really cool and terrans have tried to add them to the composition but now with the nerf I feel as if that is being discouraged and that blizzard is really boxing terran into the standard woL compositions. Mixing in early ghosts is hella expensive for no real reason unless they rushed HT archon. 200/100 + you need it coming out of a tech lab rax? not really worth the investment on 2 base. There's also not much you can do if you dont' pull scvs off 2 base now in tvp with the mscore being able to stop a medivac full of bio equivalent of supply by itself. Mech is laughable as every protoss unit does okay against seige tanks: Chargelots, blink, immortal.... hell even colossus can kill seige tanks. Give seige tanks buff vs massive plz. Again the hellbat nerf does not add to this. The only thing that I can possibly see is using ravens and marines together as a new meta but that's we've been speculating about raven tactics in tvp for years now with no progress. The Hellbat got nerfed because it was dominating all three match ups, plain and simple. I was watching TvT with non-stop hellbat drops, being defended by other hellbats. They are still a solid unit and go back to being awesome when the upgrade is added on. I know terrans hate techlabs on factories, but I hate building large numbers of stargates to deal with mutas and then getting rolled by a roach tech-switch. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On July 20 2013 01:11 Plansix wrote: The Hellbat got nerfed because it was dominating all three match ups, plain and simple. I was watching TvT with non-stop hellbat drops, being defended by other hellbats. They are still a solid unit and go back to being awesome when the upgrade is added on. I know terrans hate techlabs on factories, but I hate building large numbers of stargates to deal with mutas and then getting rolled by a roach tech-switch. No, the hellbat got nerfed because it was dominating TvT and Blizzard just kept their fingers crossed that T will figure something out in other MUs. TvZ was mostly 4M anyways and the hellbat all-in... well it's gone now, one less type of game to watch. TvP was depending on hellbats to deal with zealot--heavy compositions and the T's solved the problem by going all-in before it becomes an issue. | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
From the toss perspective, it's an hellbat drop threat. Terran have to guess which agression it is. Some things helps you like chronoboosting usage, but sometimes it can be 50/50 even with theses tricks. And whatever happens, you need to overcommit in defense. And that alone can let the Toss go back to a macrogame ezpz. The only thing "funny" for a terran in TvP right now is to dodge storm. Apart for that. It's "guess what all-in it is". Then "hope he can't defend multidrops/runbys". Then "all-in, coz otherwise i'm f***ed". The Match-up is balance or not, i don't care, I really don't. But the match-up is retarded. And from the beginning of wol, people have said it. from Bronze to GM league. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On July 20 2013 01:16 scypio wrote: No, the hellbat got nerfed because it was dominating TvT and Blizzard just kept their fingers crossed that T will figure something out in other MUs. This. Even the blog indirectly said this, basically. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On July 20 2013 00:31 freetgy wrote: may be change up your composition, to not make it predicable for what you are going then? e. g. -mix in early ghosts? -go mech? -abuse some stargate tech? Terrans play way more WoL-Style than Protoss or Zerg does, thus, Terrans are much easier to figure out cause people have played for years against this style. While Terrans obviously have only a limited experiance against the new HotS options of P/Z Do you think we terrans are stupid? We go back to WoL style TvP, because with the Hellbat nerf, both HotS units suck ass in TvP. Widow mines have their niches in the matchup atleast somehow. They're useful for cheeky cheeses and defending some allins. But Hellbats just died in the matchup. If we don't go for Widow mine cheese, we only have WoL TvP left. | ||
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UPro-BW
81 Posts
On July 20 2013 01:18 MTAC wrote: That's not the problem of one player, like you said. Without speaking of balance problem, there are a lots of terran complaining about the lack of terran possibility in the early game. they can bait a nexus cannon. That's about everything. From the toss perspective, it's an hellbat drop threat. Terran have to guess which agression it is. Some things helps you like chronoboosting usage, but sometimes it can be 50/50 even with theses tricks. And whatever happens, you need to overcommit in defense. And that alone can let the Toss go back to a macrogame ezpz. The only thing "funny" for a terran in TvP right now is to dodge storm. Apart for that. It's "guess what all-in it is". Then "hope he can't defend multidrops/runbys". Then "all-in, coz otherwise i'm f***ed". The Match-up is balance or not, i don't care, I really don't. But the match-up is retarded. And from the beginning of wol, people have said it. from Bronze to GM league. tvp is just absurd match up. A summary of grandmaster terrans thought on this matchup: "protoss can do whatever he wants" - Empire.Kas "Blink stalker all-in and other lottery strats allows inferior players to win" - Downfall " MSC expand is superior to any terran BO except 3 CC" - KawaiiRice "Terran is at disadvantage at all stages of the game" - Avilo "Protoss imba!" - Sjow "go 2 base or 3 base allin" - Ver on terran help me thread "Blizzard should just remove this race from the game" - IdrA I think these guys have a point here.. but maybe they are all wrong ,and everything is fine in tvp, since 70 eapm plansix can't use more than one control group to defend multidrops | ||
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