|
On July 17 2013 01:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 17 2013 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:
I think the main problem with TvP is that a lot of terran viewers are extremely aware of how the terran race is harder to play than the protoss race, and this awareness messes with their vision of the game. Because of it, they deduce that every time they lose it's because of how easy protoss is, and every time they win it's because of their skill overcoming the hardness of the match-up.
That game when jjakji lost to Trust ; some people used it to show how the immortal all-in is too strong, when in reality, jjakji defended the all-in just fine, then cancelled his bunkers, went in the middle of the map, lost 12 units and 2 medivacs for no reason, and then lost to the push while his bunkers were reconstructed.
Or when Myungsik beat Innovation, and most people were amazed at how well he played (even plogamer, who frequently argues that protoss is imbalanced, said something about good control from Myungsik), and in the middle of this TheDwf came in and said this looked like half his ladder games vs protoss (and Naruto defended him).
If you're convinced that the terran deserves to win more because he has the hardest task, then you can't see protoss playing well. You just see a wall of "master+ protoss" doing the same shit every game, and it can only be balanced once terran wins every single game, because they deserve it more. You are right in most of your points here. I think though, that in all matchups there should be the possibility of a strong early game attack on both sides (not just light harassment that you defend with a handful of units) to keep both players honest to their scouting, map vision and defence. The worst thing that can happen to a protoss in early game right now, is a widow mine drop. And here you have so much time to react (much more than for an orcale btw.). Even if you just pull your probes, when the widow mines are already out, you are fine. This is all. The rest goes right to to the trashcan. In TvZ there is nothing but a proxy 2rax (yeah it still works here and there and the reason is either that it is really broken or some zergs are just to lazy to learn defending it correctly). If Terran builds one baracks in the main, zerg just knows "oh fine, i'm safe for the first 10-12 minutes of the game and can do whatever i want here". On the Terran side in TvP there are various strong 1base plays, that you have to be aware of and the prominent 2base charge zealot/archon/storm allin. It's very hard to get a good read onto the protoss here, because the production facilities are normally widely spread out (so getting a read of the number of gates f.e. is really hard, but that's usually the big point if a protoss goes 2base allin or grabs a 3rd) and most allins are proxied, and some clever protoss go for non standard proxy locations. TvZ is even worse. there seem to be endless possibilities and timings for baneling busts. All of them have kill potential and most of them even offer a smooth transition into a normal game. (damage is most of the time guaranteed). You don't have to be greedy to die to them. Even if you're not going for a 3rd CC but are staying on the wrong early game comp, may decide your death. And if you have a day, where you get allined by Protoss and Zerg 10times in a row and can only defend it 2 or 3 times, is really frustrating. I play high and mid master opponents and I suppose these guys are not dumb (most of them at least). So why do they use these allins so often? Because they are easy to read and to hold? If this were the case, then noone would play them. you should have played Zerg in WoL on the ladder. Going for Broodlord/Infestor was more or less a stylistic choice to end the game, as most games were decided long before you reached Hive, due to some 2-3base P/T allin. How things never change, only races  btw, as I'm writing, Forgg opens two base against VortiX (and does so over and over again in TvZ). Flash played a two base push against RagnaroK in the OSL. Mvp played a ton of 2base pushes in TvZ in WCS Europe. InNovation just tried one against Jaedong in the Proleague. Gumiho made it to the Ro16 last GSL with 1base reactored hellion into two base marine/tank pushes. ...(this list is by no means complete. It's just some random games from the top of my head) I don't see why you say Terran can't push Zerg early with anything but 11/11.
Well Hellbats are nerfed now, you know? And most of those 2base successes were build on the back of them. And forGG doesn't seem to have had much success with his 2base play either.
|
On July 17 2013 01:15 Big J wrote:
btw, as I'm writing, Forgg opens two base against VortiX (and does so over and over again in TvZ).
Flash played a two base push against RagnaroK in the OSL.
Mvp played a ton of 2base pushes in TvZ in WCS Europe.
InNovation just tried one against Jaedong in the Proleague.
Gumiho made it to the Ro16 last GSL with 1base reactored hellion into two base marine/tank pushes.
...(this list is by no means complete. It's just some random games from the top of my head)
I don't see why you say Terran can't push Zerg early with anything but 11/11.
2-bases timings do exist in TvZ, but the viable ones based on Hellbats have been nuked and the old ones with Marines/Hellions/Medivacs leave you behind on all plans (eco, ups, army) if Zerg answers correctly, which for some reason is frequently not the case.
|
On July 17 2013 01:30 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:15 Big J wrote:On July 17 2013 00:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 17 2013 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:
I think the main problem with TvP is that a lot of terran viewers are extremely aware of how the terran race is harder to play than the protoss race, and this awareness messes with their vision of the game. Because of it, they deduce that every time they lose it's because of how easy protoss is, and every time they win it's because of their skill overcoming the hardness of the match-up.
That game when jjakji lost to Trust ; some people used it to show how the immortal all-in is too strong, when in reality, jjakji defended the all-in just fine, then cancelled his bunkers, went in the middle of the map, lost 12 units and 2 medivacs for no reason, and then lost to the push while his bunkers were reconstructed.
Or when Myungsik beat Innovation, and most people were amazed at how well he played (even plogamer, who frequently argues that protoss is imbalanced, said something about good control from Myungsik), and in the middle of this TheDwf came in and said this looked like half his ladder games vs protoss (and Naruto defended him).
If you're convinced that the terran deserves to win more because he has the hardest task, then you can't see protoss playing well. You just see a wall of "master+ protoss" doing the same shit every game, and it can only be balanced once terran wins every single game, because they deserve it more. You are right in most of your points here. I think though, that in all matchups there should be the possibility of a strong early game attack on both sides (not just light harassment that you defend with a handful of units) to keep both players honest to their scouting, map vision and defence. The worst thing that can happen to a protoss in early game right now, is a widow mine drop. And here you have so much time to react (much more than for an orcale btw.). Even if you just pull your probes, when the widow mines are already out, you are fine. This is all. The rest goes right to to the trashcan. In TvZ there is nothing but a proxy 2rax (yeah it still works here and there and the reason is either that it is really broken or some zergs are just to lazy to learn defending it correctly). If Terran builds one baracks in the main, zerg just knows "oh fine, i'm safe for the first 10-12 minutes of the game and can do whatever i want here". On the Terran side in TvP there are various strong 1base plays, that you have to be aware of and the prominent 2base charge zealot/archon/storm allin. It's very hard to get a good read onto the protoss here, because the production facilities are normally widely spread out (so getting a read of the number of gates f.e. is really hard, but that's usually the big point if a protoss goes 2base allin or grabs a 3rd) and most allins are proxied, and some clever protoss go for non standard proxy locations. TvZ is even worse. there seem to be endless possibilities and timings for baneling busts. All of them have kill potential and most of them even offer a smooth transition into a normal game. (damage is most of the time guaranteed). You don't have to be greedy to die to them. Even if you're not going for a 3rd CC but are staying on the wrong early game comp, may decide your death. And if you have a day, where you get allined by Protoss and Zerg 10times in a row and can only defend it 2 or 3 times, is really frustrating. I play high and mid master opponents and I suppose these guys are not dumb (most of them at least). So why do they use these allins so often? Because they are easy to read and to hold? If this were the case, then noone would play them. you should have played Zerg in WoL on the ladder. Going for Broodlord/Infestor was more or less a stylistic choice to end the game, as most games were decided long before you reached Hive, due to some 2-3base P/T allin. How things never change, only races btw, as I'm writing, Forgg opens two base against VortiX (and does so over and over again in TvZ). Flash played a two base push against RagnaroK in the OSL. Mvp played a ton of 2base pushes in TvZ in WCS Europe. InNovation just tried one against Jaedong in the Proleague. Gumiho made it to the Ro16 last GSL with 1base reactored hellion into two base marine/tank pushes. ...(this list is by no means complete. It's just some random games from the top of my head) I don't see why you say Terran can't push Zerg early with anything but 11/11. Well Hellbats are nerfed now, you know? And most of those 2base successes were build on the back of them. And forGG doesn't seem to have had much success with his 2base play either.
OK, that's the Mvp rushes.
On the list are 4 other rushes. Neither of them is built on the back of hellbat play. (sorry, it was Flash vs YugiOh I think)
forgg is Premier League Europe and went to the last WCS Finals. That's a massive success for a player that does not train in a Korean Teamhouse.
On July 17 2013 01:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:15 Big J wrote:
btw, as I'm writing, Forgg opens two base against VortiX (and does so over and over again in TvZ).
Flash played a two base push against RagnaroK in the OSL.
Mvp played a ton of 2base pushes in TvZ in WCS Europe.
InNovation just tried one against Jaedong in the Proleague.
Gumiho made it to the Ro16 last GSL with 1base reactored hellion into two base marine/tank pushes.
...(this list is by no means complete. It's just some random games from the top of my head)
I don't see why you say Terran can't push Zerg early with anything but 11/11. 2-bases timings do exist in TvZ, but the viable ones based on Hellbats have been nuked and the old ones with Marines/Hellions/Medivacs leave you behind on all plans (eco, ups, army) if Zerg answers correctly, which for some reason is frequently not the case.
And that's the whole point of 2base pushes, that you have to make something happen against a 3base opponent.
It's the same with roach/baneling that leaves you behind if the Terran does answer correctly, which for some reason is frequently not the case.
|
On July 17 2013 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 00:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 17 2013 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:
I think the main problem with TvP is that a lot of terran viewers are extremely aware of how the terran race is harder to play than the protoss race, and this awareness messes with their vision of the game. Because of it, they deduce that every time they lose it's because of how easy protoss is, and every time they win it's because of their skill overcoming the hardness of the match-up.
That game when jjakji lost to Trust ; some people used it to show how the immortal all-in is too strong, when in reality, jjakji defended the all-in just fine, then cancelled his bunkers, went in the middle of the map, lost 12 units and 2 medivacs for no reason, and then lost to the push while his bunkers were reconstructed.
Or when Myungsik beat Innovation, and most people were amazed at how well he played (even plogamer, who frequently argues that protoss is imbalanced, said something about good control from Myungsik), and in the middle of this TheDwf came in and said this looked like half his ladder games vs protoss (and Naruto defended him).
If you're convinced that the terran deserves to win more because he has the hardest task, then you can't see protoss playing well. You just see a wall of "master+ protoss" doing the same shit every game, and it can only be balanced once terran wins every single game, because they deserve it more. You are right in most of your points here. I think though, that in all matchups there should be the possibility of a strong early game attack on both sides (not just light harassment that you defend with a handful of units) to keep both players honest to their scouting, map vision and defence. The worst thing that can happen to a protoss in early game right now, is a widow mine drop. And here you have so much time to react (much more than for an orcale btw.). Even if you just pull your probes, when the widow mines are already out, you are fine. This is all. The rest goes right to to the trashcan. In TvZ there is nothing but a proxy 2rax (yeah it still works here and there and the reason is either that it is really broken or some zergs are just to lazy to learn defending it correctly). If Terran builds one baracks in the main, zerg just knows "oh fine, i'm safe for the first 10-12 minutes of the game and can do whatever i want here". On the Terran side in TvP there are various strong 1base plays, that you have to be aware of and the prominent 2base charge zealot/archon/storm allin. It's very hard to get a good read onto the protoss here, because the production facilities are normally widely spread out (so getting a read of the number of gates f.e. is really hard, but that's usually the big point if a protoss goes 2base allin or grabs a 3rd) and most allins are proxied, and some clever protoss go for non standard proxy locations. TvZ is even worse. there seem to be endless possibilities and timings for baneling busts. All of them have kill potential and most of them even offer a smooth transition into a normal game. (damage is most of the time guaranteed). You don't have to be greedy to die to them. Even if you're not going for a 3rd CC but are staying on the wrong early game comp, may decide your death. And if you have a day, where you get allined by Protoss and Zerg 10times in a row and can only defend it 2 or 3 times, is really frustrating. I play high and mid master opponents and I suppose these guys are not dumb (most of them at least). So why do they use these allins so often? Because they are easy to read and to hold? If this were the case, then noone would play them. Yeah, the last thing we want is boring match ups where its so easy to scout that no agression works at any time and everyone is forced into a macro build. Remember the days when we could all go 1 gate/rax FE and not give a shit. Those were terrible. And the argument that terran is harder to play that the other races just gets so old. It is almost approval to whine about playing the game, even if you have a personal 50/50 win rate against everyone. Well Terran is the most technical and least forgiving of the 3 races so its no wonder that people get the impression that its harder to play. As someone whos played all 3 races to master level, my Protoss win rates were always around 65-70% while my Terran and Zerg lagged way behind. I really only watch Terran streams and practice it much more than the other races yet it still remains much more difficult to maintain a high win % for me as Terran than Protoss. I have a bunch of friends who play SC2 at a very casual level (don't follow the scene or current metagame at all) and even they all immediately identified Protoss as the easiest race to play and Terran as the hardest. This is just my personal experience, so it definitely doesnt mean its fact but I think theres some truth to it because you see so many people of all different skill levels coming to the same conclusion.
It may say it, it doesn't make it true. There was a time when terran was considered the easiest race, if we used volume of balance whine as a metric for how hard something is to win with. Terrans have had a hard time at the end of WoL and there was a lot valid complaining about that era. But the fact that a lot of people claim their race is harder, or you have an easier time winning with protoss doesn't make it the easy button of SC2. If it required less skill and actions, we would see it in the win rates of the highest level players, which isn't happening. Also, by making this theory over and over, it gets rid of any real discussion on builds ways to deal with or sniff out a specific all-in.
|
On July 17 2013 01:40 Big J wrote:
And that's the whole point of 2base pushes, that you have to make something happen against a 3base opponent.
It's the same with roach/baneling that leaves you behind if the Terran doesn't answer correctly, which for some reason is frequently not the case.
No, it doesn't work this way, because Terran cannot do this after their failed agression.
|
On July 17 2013 00:51 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:42 Markwerf wrote:
stop whining so much really, you're throwing around all these nonsense facts. Protoss has some all-ins but they are really not that difficult to stop in PvT hence you don't see them much in pro PvT where it's much more standard for protoss to try and defend and take it to lategame. Besides that there is basically only immortal/sentry all-ins, voidray/oracle all-ins and blink all-ins. Robo and stargate all-ins are both just stopped with bunkers at the front, the only difference with stargate is that you have to be wary of oracles harassing your mineral line which even if you don't have a turret is not too hard to stop by a quick scv pull. If you're unsure just 1 turret in the main mineral line and 1 turret near the natural with some bunkers stop any all-in but blink.. That is if the map is good for blink, if there is only a single entry like bel shir this stops blink too. However any map good for blink is also easy to use reaper scouts... Blink strats are easily scouted by the unit composition they go and gas timings and all you need to do against them is go marauders.
For your information by the way, production speeds off barracks are about the same as warpgates... Reactor rax, 4 marines every 50 seconds, warpgate 2 zealots every 56 seconds. Techlab rax 2 marauders every 60 seconds, warpgate 2 stalkers every 64 seconds..
It's just how it is with every matchup, one race has more solid timing attacks, other has better harassment options. Bio is based around harass and mobility thus the other race has mostly timings and defensive play as option. Mech should be viable to fix this, unfortunately it isn't.. Love the classic "stop whining" in response to a post which, I believe, was decently well-structured and argumented with pro games examples as backup, especially coming from someone who could proably fill up an entire page with "boost Medivacs are a bit silly" if I had time to waste stalking his long history; I even remember you complaining about OCs being able to lift at the time jjakji was bashing Sen (lol) on Dual Sight after the season he won his Code S because at this time (January 2012) Zergs had troubles distinguishing the different transitions afterwards. But suddenly when Protoss enjoys the same thing in a worse way in 2013 PvT, everything is fine. Double standards much? I just can't resist to quote Markwerf 2012 so we feel the burning irony of Markwerf 2013's stance: Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 23:43 Markwerf wrote:
Z guesses the T opening or gets a lucky overlord through and is ahead or misreads and is behind against some timing or greedy build. T builds like this one just differentiate so late that it's total frustation playing against them given how many options T has. Any resemblance to a current situation would, naturally, be purely coincidental. For your information by the way, in your comparison of the two races' productions you seemed to conveniently forget some facts: 1) A reactor rax costing 200/50 and needing 115 seconds to come into effect as opposed to a Warpgate costing 150/0 and needing 75 seconds to come into effect. 2) A lab rax costing 200/25 and needing 90 seconds to come into effect as opposed to a Warpgate costing 150/0 and needing 75 seconds to come into effect. 3) Warpgate having the unit produced as soon as you click onto the ground as opposed to the rax delivering the unit after the production time is over, which thus doesn't give us "2 zealots every 56 seconds" but 3 Zealots per minut (t = 5 for 1 zeal, t = 33 for 2 zeals, t = 61 for 3 zeals) as opposed to 4.8 Marines per minut for a reactor rax, 2.4 for a naked rax, or 2.6 stalks/sentries per minut as opposed to 2 Marauders per minut. So no, Protoss still produces faster even when Terran has time to get the add-ons. And I didn't factor chrono… Your talk about "gas timings" to scout Blink Stalkers is a complete nonsense: all Protoss openings can go gate gas gas core and you will see absolutely zero difference from their gas timings since they can modulate at will their gas income with 2/3 or 3/3 in each geyser. If you don't have a Reaper, all your SCV will see is a single Stalker, maybe a MSC if you're lucky—have fun guessing if he's parking 3 Sentries behind or 2 other stalks or nothing into DT. So much for "finding his unit composition". Marauders don't solve at all the stalk contain into 7' nex issue with a superior macro game afterwards and I have lost countless times going 3 rax add-ons immediately while I had probably more than 90% winrate in WoL going the same answer because MSC / Time Warp tremendously increases the strength of the attack. Fairly handy to have a beefy 14 (!!) sight range flying unit to scout where your opponent's troops are so you can Blink elsewhere and prepare your Time Warp to kill his formation and prevent his Marines from sniping the sight spotter. For the rest I have nothing to add. Please just offrace and play some Terran, lose the same coinflips over and over and come back telling us with a straight face lottery was fun and it isn't "that difficult to stop".
Fair enough, the production can be looked at in other ways and I see your point. Burst production is much better for protoss and can be troublesome in some ways I suppose.
There is certainly some irony in my statement back then, but zerg actually got their scouting and defenses buffed a few months afterwards with the queen and overlord buff. Time will tell if something needs to happen for terran but I doubt it, I just don't see much allins like these in pro PvT and definately not to the extent that it's worrysome. Protoss does rely on some gimmickness hiding their builds in pro play but it's not too much gambling at the moment i'd say.
|
On July 17 2013 01:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:On July 17 2013 00:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 00:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 17 2013 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:
I think the main problem with TvP is that a lot of terran viewers are extremely aware of how the terran race is harder to play than the protoss race, and this awareness messes with their vision of the game. Because of it, they deduce that every time they lose it's because of how easy protoss is, and every time they win it's because of their skill overcoming the hardness of the match-up.
That game when jjakji lost to Trust ; some people used it to show how the immortal all-in is too strong, when in reality, jjakji defended the all-in just fine, then cancelled his bunkers, went in the middle of the map, lost 12 units and 2 medivacs for no reason, and then lost to the push while his bunkers were reconstructed.
Or when Myungsik beat Innovation, and most people were amazed at how well he played (even plogamer, who frequently argues that protoss is imbalanced, said something about good control from Myungsik), and in the middle of this TheDwf came in and said this looked like half his ladder games vs protoss (and Naruto defended him).
If you're convinced that the terran deserves to win more because he has the hardest task, then you can't see protoss playing well. You just see a wall of "master+ protoss" doing the same shit every game, and it can only be balanced once terran wins every single game, because they deserve it more. You are right in most of your points here. I think though, that in all matchups there should be the possibility of a strong early game attack on both sides (not just light harassment that you defend with a handful of units) to keep both players honest to their scouting, map vision and defence. The worst thing that can happen to a protoss in early game right now, is a widow mine drop. And here you have so much time to react (much more than for an orcale btw.). Even if you just pull your probes, when the widow mines are already out, you are fine. This is all. The rest goes right to to the trashcan. In TvZ there is nothing but a proxy 2rax (yeah it still works here and there and the reason is either that it is really broken or some zergs are just to lazy to learn defending it correctly). If Terran builds one baracks in the main, zerg just knows "oh fine, i'm safe for the first 10-12 minutes of the game and can do whatever i want here". On the Terran side in TvP there are various strong 1base plays, that you have to be aware of and the prominent 2base charge zealot/archon/storm allin. It's very hard to get a good read onto the protoss here, because the production facilities are normally widely spread out (so getting a read of the number of gates f.e. is really hard, but that's usually the big point if a protoss goes 2base allin or grabs a 3rd) and most allins are proxied, and some clever protoss go for non standard proxy locations. TvZ is even worse. there seem to be endless possibilities and timings for baneling busts. All of them have kill potential and most of them even offer a smooth transition into a normal game. (damage is most of the time guaranteed). You don't have to be greedy to die to them. Even if you're not going for a 3rd CC but are staying on the wrong early game comp, may decide your death. And if you have a day, where you get allined by Protoss and Zerg 10times in a row and can only defend it 2 or 3 times, is really frustrating. I play high and mid master opponents and I suppose these guys are not dumb (most of them at least). So why do they use these allins so often? Because they are easy to read and to hold? If this were the case, then noone would play them. Yeah, the last thing we want is boring match ups where its so easy to scout that no agression works at any time and everyone is forced into a macro build. Remember the days when we could all go 1 gate/rax FE and not give a shit. Those were terrible. And the argument that terran is harder to play that the other races just gets so old. It is almost approval to whine about playing the game, even if you have a personal 50/50 win rate against everyone. Well Terran is the most technical and least forgiving of the 3 races so its no wonder that people get the impression that its harder to play. As someone whos played all 3 races to master level, my Protoss win rates were always around 65-70% while my Terran and Zerg lagged way behind. I really only watch Terran streams and practice it much more than the other races yet it still remains much more difficult to maintain a high win % for me as Terran than Protoss. I have a bunch of friends who play SC2 at a very casual level (don't follow the scene or current metagame at all) and even they all immediately identified Protoss as the easiest race to play and Terran as the hardest. This is just my personal experience, so it definitely doesnt mean its fact but I think theres some truth to it because you see so many people of all different skill levels coming to the same conclusion. It may say it, it doesn't make it true. There was a time when terran was considered the easiest race, if we used volume of balance whine as a metric for how hard something is to win with. Terrans have had a hard time at the end of WoL and there was a lot valid complaining about that era. But the fact that a lot of people claim their race is harder, or you have an easier time winning with protoss doesn't make it the easy button of SC2. If it required less skill and actions, we would see it in the win rates of the highest level players, which isn't happening. Also, by making this theory over and over, it gets rid of any real discussion on builds ways to deal with or sniff out a specific all-in.
Just because a race is easier doesn't mean it will manifest into higher winrates at the pro level. In my opinion, the very fact that Terran is so reliant on mechanics is the reason the race has seen so much success at the top Korean level. If you take a small step back and look at the foreign pro scene, Terran has always struggled.
|
On July 17 2013 01:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:40 Big J wrote:
And that's the whole point of 2base pushes, that you have to make something happen against a 3base opponent.
It's the same with roach/baneling that leaves you behind if the Terran doesn't answer correctly, which for some reason is frequently not the case. No, it doesn't work this way, because Terran cannot do this after their failed agression.
You're grandmaster. I'm sure you will figure out how a Terran can constantly produce workers during doing a timing, while zerg has to postpone/stockpile it until after the push has happened.
And yeah. 26workers of 3bases. The math isn't that hard to do to immidiatly see that this isn't a normal situation, but rather some supply block situation where Sheth stockpiled way too many larva and pretty sure his mineral mined suffered incredibly from this.
|
On July 17 2013 01:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:40 Big J wrote:
And that's the whole point of 2base pushes, that you have to make something happen against a 3base opponent.
It's the same with roach/baneling that leaves you behind if the Terran doesn't answer correctly, which for some reason is frequently not the case. No, it doesn't work this way, because Terran cannot do this after their failed agression.
Dump 1300 minerals into workers? No, but protoss can't either, even with all the chrono boost. Terran can drop mules the entire time during the agression, however. One three bases, thats 3 mules, which can be around extra 12 SCVs during the entire process, give or take. And you never need to choose if you want a work or a unit, which zerg cannot.
|
On July 17 2013 01:50 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:40 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:On July 17 2013 00:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 00:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 17 2013 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:
I think the main problem with TvP is that a lot of terran viewers are extremely aware of how the terran race is harder to play than the protoss race, and this awareness messes with their vision of the game. Because of it, they deduce that every time they lose it's because of how easy protoss is, and every time they win it's because of their skill overcoming the hardness of the match-up.
That game when jjakji lost to Trust ; some people used it to show how the immortal all-in is too strong, when in reality, jjakji defended the all-in just fine, then cancelled his bunkers, went in the middle of the map, lost 12 units and 2 medivacs for no reason, and then lost to the push while his bunkers were reconstructed.
Or when Myungsik beat Innovation, and most people were amazed at how well he played (even plogamer, who frequently argues that protoss is imbalanced, said something about good control from Myungsik), and in the middle of this TheDwf came in and said this looked like half his ladder games vs protoss (and Naruto defended him).
If you're convinced that the terran deserves to win more because he has the hardest task, then you can't see protoss playing well. You just see a wall of "master+ protoss" doing the same shit every game, and it can only be balanced once terran wins every single game, because they deserve it more. You are right in most of your points here. I think though, that in all matchups there should be the possibility of a strong early game attack on both sides (not just light harassment that you defend with a handful of units) to keep both players honest to their scouting, map vision and defence. The worst thing that can happen to a protoss in early game right now, is a widow mine drop. And here you have so much time to react (much more than for an orcale btw.). Even if you just pull your probes, when the widow mines are already out, you are fine. This is all. The rest goes right to to the trashcan. In TvZ there is nothing but a proxy 2rax (yeah it still works here and there and the reason is either that it is really broken or some zergs are just to lazy to learn defending it correctly). If Terran builds one baracks in the main, zerg just knows "oh fine, i'm safe for the first 10-12 minutes of the game and can do whatever i want here". On the Terran side in TvP there are various strong 1base plays, that you have to be aware of and the prominent 2base charge zealot/archon/storm allin. It's very hard to get a good read onto the protoss here, because the production facilities are normally widely spread out (so getting a read of the number of gates f.e. is really hard, but that's usually the big point if a protoss goes 2base allin or grabs a 3rd) and most allins are proxied, and some clever protoss go for non standard proxy locations. TvZ is even worse. there seem to be endless possibilities and timings for baneling busts. All of them have kill potential and most of them even offer a smooth transition into a normal game. (damage is most of the time guaranteed). You don't have to be greedy to die to them. Even if you're not going for a 3rd CC but are staying on the wrong early game comp, may decide your death. And if you have a day, where you get allined by Protoss and Zerg 10times in a row and can only defend it 2 or 3 times, is really frustrating. I play high and mid master opponents and I suppose these guys are not dumb (most of them at least). So why do they use these allins so often? Because they are easy to read and to hold? If this were the case, then noone would play them. Yeah, the last thing we want is boring match ups where its so easy to scout that no agression works at any time and everyone is forced into a macro build. Remember the days when we could all go 1 gate/rax FE and not give a shit. Those were terrible. And the argument that terran is harder to play that the other races just gets so old. It is almost approval to whine about playing the game, even if you have a personal 50/50 win rate against everyone. Well Terran is the most technical and least forgiving of the 3 races so its no wonder that people get the impression that its harder to play. As someone whos played all 3 races to master level, my Protoss win rates were always around 65-70% while my Terran and Zerg lagged way behind. I really only watch Terran streams and practice it much more than the other races yet it still remains much more difficult to maintain a high win % for me as Terran than Protoss. I have a bunch of friends who play SC2 at a very casual level (don't follow the scene or current metagame at all) and even they all immediately identified Protoss as the easiest race to play and Terran as the hardest. This is just my personal experience, so it definitely doesnt mean its fact but I think theres some truth to it because you see so many people of all different skill levels coming to the same conclusion. It may say it, it doesn't make it true. There was a time when terran was considered the easiest race, if we used volume of balance whine as a metric for how hard something is to win with. Terrans have had a hard time at the end of WoL and there was a lot valid complaining about that era. But the fact that a lot of people claim their race is harder, or you have an easier time winning with protoss doesn't make it the easy button of SC2. If it required less skill and actions, we would see it in the win rates of the highest level players, which isn't happening. Also, by making this theory over and over, it gets rid of any real discussion on builds ways to deal with or sniff out a specific all-in. Just because a race is easier doesn't mean it will manifest into higher winrates at the pro level. In my opinion, the very fact that Terran is so reliant on mechanics is the reason the race has seen so much success at the top Korean level. If you take a small step back and look at the foreign pro scene, Terran has always struggled.
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss.
|
On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 01:50 SupLilSon wrote:On July 17 2013 01:40 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:On July 17 2013 00:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 00:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 17 2013 00:29 Nebuchad wrote:
I think the main problem with TvP is that a lot of terran viewers are extremely aware of how the terran race is harder to play than the protoss race, and this awareness messes with their vision of the game. Because of it, they deduce that every time they lose it's because of how easy protoss is, and every time they win it's because of their skill overcoming the hardness of the match-up.
That game when jjakji lost to Trust ; some people used it to show how the immortal all-in is too strong, when in reality, jjakji defended the all-in just fine, then cancelled his bunkers, went in the middle of the map, lost 12 units and 2 medivacs for no reason, and then lost to the push while his bunkers were reconstructed.
Or when Myungsik beat Innovation, and most people were amazed at how well he played (even plogamer, who frequently argues that protoss is imbalanced, said something about good control from Myungsik), and in the middle of this TheDwf came in and said this looked like half his ladder games vs protoss (and Naruto defended him).
If you're convinced that the terran deserves to win more because he has the hardest task, then you can't see protoss playing well. You just see a wall of "master+ protoss" doing the same shit every game, and it can only be balanced once terran wins every single game, because they deserve it more. You are right in most of your points here. I think though, that in all matchups there should be the possibility of a strong early game attack on both sides (not just light harassment that you defend with a handful of units) to keep both players honest to their scouting, map vision and defence. The worst thing that can happen to a protoss in early game right now, is a widow mine drop. And here you have so much time to react (much more than for an orcale btw.). Even if you just pull your probes, when the widow mines are already out, you are fine. This is all. The rest goes right to to the trashcan. In TvZ there is nothing but a proxy 2rax (yeah it still works here and there and the reason is either that it is really broken or some zergs are just to lazy to learn defending it correctly). If Terran builds one baracks in the main, zerg just knows "oh fine, i'm safe for the first 10-12 minutes of the game and can do whatever i want here". On the Terran side in TvP there are various strong 1base plays, that you have to be aware of and the prominent 2base charge zealot/archon/storm allin. It's very hard to get a good read onto the protoss here, because the production facilities are normally widely spread out (so getting a read of the number of gates f.e. is really hard, but that's usually the big point if a protoss goes 2base allin or grabs a 3rd) and most allins are proxied, and some clever protoss go for non standard proxy locations. TvZ is even worse. there seem to be endless possibilities and timings for baneling busts. All of them have kill potential and most of them even offer a smooth transition into a normal game. (damage is most of the time guaranteed). You don't have to be greedy to die to them. Even if you're not going for a 3rd CC but are staying on the wrong early game comp, may decide your death. And if you have a day, where you get allined by Protoss and Zerg 10times in a row and can only defend it 2 or 3 times, is really frustrating. I play high and mid master opponents and I suppose these guys are not dumb (most of them at least). So why do they use these allins so often? Because they are easy to read and to hold? If this were the case, then noone would play them. Yeah, the last thing we want is boring match ups where its so easy to scout that no agression works at any time and everyone is forced into a macro build. Remember the days when we could all go 1 gate/rax FE and not give a shit. Those were terrible. And the argument that terran is harder to play that the other races just gets so old. It is almost approval to whine about playing the game, even if you have a personal 50/50 win rate against everyone. Well Terran is the most technical and least forgiving of the 3 races so its no wonder that people get the impression that its harder to play. As someone whos played all 3 races to master level, my Protoss win rates were always around 65-70% while my Terran and Zerg lagged way behind. I really only watch Terran streams and practice it much more than the other races yet it still remains much more difficult to maintain a high win % for me as Terran than Protoss. I have a bunch of friends who play SC2 at a very casual level (don't follow the scene or current metagame at all) and even they all immediately identified Protoss as the easiest race to play and Terran as the hardest. This is just my personal experience, so it definitely doesnt mean its fact but I think theres some truth to it because you see so many people of all different skill levels coming to the same conclusion. It may say it, it doesn't make it true. There was a time when terran was considered the easiest race, if we used volume of balance whine as a metric for how hard something is to win with. Terrans have had a hard time at the end of WoL and there was a lot valid complaining about that era. But the fact that a lot of people claim their race is harder, or you have an easier time winning with protoss doesn't make it the easy button of SC2. If it required less skill and actions, we would see it in the win rates of the highest level players, which isn't happening. Also, by making this theory over and over, it gets rid of any real discussion on builds ways to deal with or sniff out a specific all-in. Just because a race is easier doesn't mean it will manifest into higher winrates at the pro level. In my opinion, the very fact that Terran is so reliant on mechanics is the reason the race has seen so much success at the top Korean level. If you take a small step back and look at the foreign pro scene, Terran has always struggled. I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss.
So you don't watch Proleague at all I'm guessing? KeSPA teams all rely heavily on their Protoss lineups to produce consistent victories. I do agree with you that with the inception of HotS foreign Terrans have had a great showing and it was the same way in WoL. But look, the nerfs are already coming, just as they did in WoL. The foreign Terrans with a little weaker mechanics will probably fall off soon as the other races catch up. Most of these successful Terran players actively used the mines and hellbats, both new units to achieve their results, just like in WoL where MorroW busted out the Reapers to take Dreamhack and Jinro smashed MC with Thors. I know it does sound a bit ridiculous to generalize the entire pro scene like this, but it does seem like the Terran players have started to utilize new strategies and units more readily than Zerg or Protoss. Like in WoL where Zergs found the Infestor, I think Z/P have room to grow while Terran is already being nerfed. Wait a bit for the game to stabilize and I bet we see the same recession of foreign T.
|
On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss.
Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months:
2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4
2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner
Impressive, eh? :D
|
On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D
Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans.
|
On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans.
Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well.
|
On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D
The other (foreign) races don't read much better.
Zerg:
Stephano 2nd WCS EU
Dimaga Semifinals WCS EU
Protoss:
Naniwa 2nd DH Stockholm
|
On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well.
You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher.
I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while.
|
On July 17 2013 02:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D The other (foreign) races don't read much better. Zerg: Stephano 2nd WCS EU Dimaga Semifinals WCS EU Protoss: Naniwa 2nd DH Stockholm
You forgot:
Snute 2nd HSC VII
TLO 3rd HCV VII
Naniwa ro4 MLG Spring championship.
Also, this is just HotS and I listed everything T in the last 15 months.
|
On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans.
Bias is tough to beat. Terran has proven time and time again to be the first to be nerfed to the face.
Any time a Terran plays "non-standard", proxy rax, bunkers etc, NERF BAT under two months. Either a buff in the match up or a straight up nerf e.g. Thors getting back their energy bar less than a month after Thorzain used mass Thors to finish off his opponent. All the more why I shouldn't be upgrading to HotS much less sponsor SC2 local events with current management.
Edit: Blizzard claims they "balanced" Hellbat nerf with a cloak banshee buff. Really? So in return for ALL hellbats, an AoE attack unit, suffering a 40% nerf to damage vs. light, Terran now saves 100/10 research for invisibility for limited periods on a single targeting paper plane... Talk about getting happy over a better rope to hang yourself with...
|
On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while.
29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them.
|
On July 17 2013 02:36 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:23 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:14 scypio wrote:On July 17 2013 02:00 convention wrote:
I would definitely agree with you in WoL, where we would never see any foreign terrans doing well. However, since HotS have come out, there are lots of foreign terrans doing well, just as there are also foreign protoss and foreign zerg doing well. I would say the only sub-race that might be doing poorly is korean protoss. Ok, here are foreign terrans achievements in Premier Tournaments in the last 15 months: 2013-06-17 Dreamhack Open Summer - Sjow - ro4 2012-04-21 Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Thorzain - winner Impressive, eh? :D Ok, lets stay within HotS and limit the groups down to players with blue eyes who are left handed and also terrans. Stop trolling. Convention posted that for "foreign terran is doing well" and the truth is that no, it is not doing well. You postd a period of time where there were no events going on, including the GSL. They only started back up once HotS was released. WCS wasn't going on at that point and the only MLG was invite only and the Kespa players ROFL stomped everyone in the first round. Since then, we have had one WCS season, MLG and Dreamhack. Also, you didn't include any terrans that qualifed for WCS in any non-KA region and only used round of 4 and higher. I am all for posting good information, but you need to post GOOD information. Those are the most cherry picked stats I have seen in a while. 29 Premier WoL events taken place between Thorzain's win in April and the launch of HotS. So I would not call that "no events going on". Hard to discuss anything if you overlooked them.
No one is going to argue with you about the end of WoL. But since HotS is a new game, no one is going to accept that that matters in the current discussion, either. I could post all the time protoss hasn't won a GSL and claim it is proof the game is broken too, but thats not good data and proves nothing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
