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On July 11 2013 00:11 Tsubbi wrote:
i really wonder how the metagame changes after this, like after the cargo space nerf everyone just stopped doing hellbat drops and a few weeks later its used in 90%+ of the games again, i really think that this nerf isnt as huge as some people think
Yes it is quiet funny how nerfs or buffs are taken sometimes. The doubled cargo space was one of the funniest "nerfs" I have ever seen. The only thing it promoted was to use more Medivacs, which works because you have no gas investment for the Hellbats, so it fits perfectly into the production and only hinders your upgrades a bit. Because of this they had a better unload time and a better healing.
But while it actually buffed Hellvacs centric builds it indeed weakened the occasional uncontrolled hellbat drops. The side effect of this is what I like the most though, so this nerf that turned into a buff by accident was something good in the end. Hellvacs are perfect to defend your Tanks. If you would load in 4 Hellbats into a Medivac, they would drop way to slow for defending a flank. 2 Hellvacs are just perfect for this case. And if you had to load in 2 Hellbats per hand it would take alot of concentration, now its done in in a few clicks.
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I think the hellbat nerf is great for TvT, but I think the 50% reduced cloak cost will suck for PvT and ZvT.
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Why does Blizzard keep pushing every Terran MU towards bio but still insist mech is viable or has potential? Mech is sht and now it's even worst. every god damn matchup is MMM or marine tank.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On July 11 2013 00:15 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
is it live yet? I thought wednesday is update day at blizzard. Too lazy to go ingame.
Not live on US servers yet.
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On July 10 2013 23:56 Mura19 wrote:
That not -40% damage vs light , that + 0% damage vs light if you to the upgrade... I'ts too hard for you to do the upgrade?
if you play in bronze and usually have 2k/2k floated it's ofc no problem to fit in the upgrade any time. So I understand your point to some degree.
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On July 11 2013 00:47 blamekilly wrote:
Why does Blizzard keep pushing every Terran MU towards bio but still insist mech is viable or has potential? Mech is sht and now it's even worst. every god damn matchup is MMM or marine tank.
not in tvt hahahahaha
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On July 10 2013 21:36 tsango wrote:
I really want to see if straight up hellion drops gain any popularity again...
Ive been using hellion drops the past week or so with really good results. People see my gas first and factory and respond with ebay, turret(s) and mines. Problem is, they put the mines in place to intercept a medi going right to the mineral line, and the turret is placed to preven a medi hovering near the mineral line, but both of these responses are wrong against hellions. I can avoid all the turrets by dropping the edge of the base, and since hellions are fast I can pick a different angle of attack than a hellbat drop and avoid the mine. Since I dont need to hover the medi, the mineral line turrets are worthless too.
I think this patch may actually hurt my hellion drops. Part of their success comes from people assuming hellbats, but with nerfed hellbats and decreased hellbat drops then I think I wont be able to get as much damage in because they will be less likely to overreact.
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On July 11 2013 00:49 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 23:56 Mura19 wrote:
That not -40% damage vs light , that + 0% damage vs light if you to the upgrade... I'ts too hard for you to do the upgrade? if you play in bronze and usually have 2k/2k floated it's ofc no problem to fit in the upgrade any time. So I understand your point to some degree.
No you don't understand anything... I mean in Gm level. A upgrade not suppose to affect your play that much....... Is like the siege tank upgrade disapear in hots, upgrade or not that not affect the balance at all, only the timing was affected...
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On July 11 2013 01:00 Mura19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 00:49 TeeTS wrote:On July 10 2013 23:56 Mura19 wrote:
That not -40% damage vs light , that + 0% damage vs light if you to the upgrade... I'ts too hard for you to do the upgrade? if you play in bronze and usually have 2k/2k floated it's ofc no problem to fit in the upgrade any time. So I understand your point to some degree. No you don't understand anything... I mean in Gm level.
I mean no disrespect, but your responses haven't struck me as GM caliber. Plenty of GM Terrans have already voiced their view that this actually is a big deal. Do you know something they don't?
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On July 11 2013 01:05 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 01:00 Mura19 wrote:On July 11 2013 00:49 TeeTS wrote:On July 10 2013 23:56 Mura19 wrote:
That not -40% damage vs light , that + 0% damage vs light if you to the upgrade... I'ts too hard for you to do the upgrade? if you play in bronze and usually have 2k/2k floated it's ofc no problem to fit in the upgrade any time. So I understand your point to some degree. No you don't understand anything... I mean in Gm level. I mean no disrespect, but your responses haven't struck me as GM caliber. Plenty of GM Terrans have already voiced their view that this actually is a big deal. Do you know something they don't?
There some Terran GM will always complaint with any patch who nerf terran and make it bigger than it is just because they want their race stronger. If you can't understand by yourself this patch is a joke, nothing I can do for you, I'm sorry...
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While I'm thankful Hellbat drops and Hellbat pushes are being nerfed in TvT and TvZ, and I look forward to 1 Gas Banshees in TvZ, I'm concerned the Hellbat will be MIA in TvP because Infernal Pre-Igniter is too much of an investment for Hellbats just to have bonus damage vs Probes and Zealots. As assanine as it sounds, I'd rather Hellbats have 18 + 10 vs Shields so Hellbats could 2 shot Probes and have a high DPS vs a range of Protoss units instead of hard countering Zealots and +5 vs light from Infernal Pre-Igniter so they could 2 shot Drones and Marines without Combat Shield.
I think rolling all of the bonus damage into Infernal Pre-Igniter is just the exit of Hellbats from TvP, because while the unit is still going to be a strong, mid-game transitional tool in TvT and TvZ just because of the viability of 2xFactory play for Blue Flame Hellions into Blue Flame Hellbats and Mech in general, I'm pretty sure Terrans are just going to go straight for Widow Mine drops or proxy Widow Mines in TvP and then Bio with a dead Factory pretty often.
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This reminds me of the siege tank nerf early WoL. Both had their damage nerfed because of TvT and both make mech less and less viable in TvP. With the widow mine nearly replacing the siege tank in TvZ, it appears that mech will remain rare outside of TvT, at least for the foreseeable future.
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On July 11 2013 03:38 Noahnao wrote:
This reminds me of the siege tank nerf early WoL. Both had their damage nerfed because of TvT and both make mech less and less viable in TvP. With the widow mine nearly replacing the siege tank in TvZ, it appears that mech will remain rare outside of TvT, at least for the foreseeable future.
David Kim would disagree on your point with the siege tank nerf
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147880
Siege tanks in large numbers are performing too well in all matchups. In the mid- to late-game, siege tanks are too dominant against all ground units. We want a small set of light and unarmored ground units to perform better against siege tanks. With this in mind, we're changing the Siege Mode damage of the siege tank from 50 to 35, +15 vs. armored; to correspond with this, damage upgrades will be changed from +5 to +3, +2 vs. armored. This change reduces the base damage of the siege tank against light and unarmored units, as well as the splash damage.
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On July 11 2013 03:12 MoonCricket wrote:
While I'm thankful Hellbat drops and Hellbat pushes are being nerfed in TvT and TvZ, and I look forward to 1 Gas Banshees in TvZ, I'm concerned the Hellbat will be MIA in TvP because Infernal Pre-Igniter is too much of an investment for Hellbats just to have bonus damage vs Probes and Zealots. As assanine as it sounds, I'd rather Hellbats have 18 + 10 vs Shields so Hellbats could 2 shot Probes and have a high DPS vs a range of Protoss units instead of hard countering Zealots and +5 vs light from Infernal Pre-Igniter so they could 2 shot Drones and Marines without Combat Shield.
I think rolling all of the bonus damage into Infernal Pre-Igniter is just the exit of Hellbats from TvP, because while the unit is still going to be a strong, mid-game transitional tool in TvT and TvZ just because of the viability of 2xFactory play for Blue Flame Hellions into Blue Flame Hellbats and Mech in general, I'm pretty sure Terrans are just going to go straight for Widow Mine drops or proxy Widow Mines in TvP and then Bio with a dead Factory pretty often.
You can already do 1 gas banshees. The new patch wont allow you to hit a crisp cloak timing off one gas.
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On July 11 2013 00:10 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 23:42 Mura19 wrote:
If 100 mineral 100 gas have any impact to your play you really need work on your built because your play are really too fragile... If 100 min 100 gas has an impact on your build, it means your build is already very tight and precise. Having an extra 100/100 at all times is sloppy play.
The intention of a balance patch is to adjust timings, because that's usually how imba precipitates. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the balance patch should fix the risk/reward of the harassment not its timing. The old 4 to 2 Hellbat per Medivac change actually decreased the risk/reward because the drop is now 200 minerals less and quicker while the opponent's response will be similar.
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On July 11 2013 04:05 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 03:12 MoonCricket wrote:
While I'm thankful Hellbat drops and Hellbat pushes are being nerfed in TvT and TvZ, and I look forward to 1 Gas Banshees in TvZ, I'm concerned the Hellbat will be MIA in TvP because Infernal Pre-Igniter is too much of an investment for Hellbats just to have bonus damage vs Probes and Zealots. As assanine as it sounds, I'd rather Hellbats have 18 + 10 vs Shields so Hellbats could 2 shot Probes and have a high DPS vs a range of Protoss units instead of hard countering Zealots and +5 vs light from Infernal Pre-Igniter so they could 2 shot Drones and Marines without Combat Shield.
I think rolling all of the bonus damage into Infernal Pre-Igniter is just the exit of Hellbats from TvP, because while the unit is still going to be a strong, mid-game transitional tool in TvT and TvZ just because of the viability of 2xFactory play for Blue Flame Hellions into Blue Flame Hellbats and Mech in general, I'm pretty sure Terrans are just going to go straight for Widow Mine drops or proxy Widow Mines in TvP and then Bio with a dead Factory pretty often. You can already do 1 gas banshees. The new patch wont allow you to hit a crisp cloak timing off one gas.
Then you just delay the gas.
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They should just make hellbats do 18+4 vs light before pre-ignitor. Hellbat drops were only devastating in TvZ if the Zerg was playing greedy in some way, whether droning too hard or skipping roaches/ static d. An example of this is Flash vs Effort in Proleague a few days ago, where Effort skipped roaches, skipped static defense, went fast overlord speed, and went quick 1/1 lings, all on 3 base. Flash also went the fastest possible hellbat drops off a cc first, taking a 4:20 ish second gas. Hellbat drops are hit or miss in TvP, due to nexus cannon, stargate openers. But anyway, hellbat drops are really only imbalanced in TvT, and making then 18+4 would help alleviate TvT, while not completely taking away their function and flipping the metagame in TvP/TvZ.
Having weaker hellbats in TvP midgame compositions wouldn't be too big of a deal, as the power of the hellbat in that situation isn't so much their damage, but their tankiness vs zealots and the fact that they bait the charge of zealots at a safe distance from a Terran's MMM. Early hellbat ground attacks are also probably too strong in TvZ, and a nerf to their damage might actually be needed anyway, but let's at least leave a +4 vs light on their base damage, so as to not totally cripple early game drops. Regeneration of hp/shields of drones and probes would actually come into play vs 18+4 hellbats, as probes that are hit once, won't just die to a later second shot no matter what, and drones would be able to regenerate back up to 2 shots worth of hp in a few seconds.
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On July 11 2013 04:00 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 03:38 Noahnao wrote:
This reminds me of the siege tank nerf early WoL. Both had their damage nerfed because of TvT and both make mech less and less viable in TvP. With the widow mine nearly replacing the siege tank in TvZ, it appears that mech will remain rare outside of TvT, at least for the foreseeable future. David Kim would disagree on your point with the siege tank nerf http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147880Show nested quote +Siege tanks in large numbers are performing too well in all matchups. In the mid- to late-game, siege tanks are too dominant against all ground units. We want a small set of light and unarmored ground units to perform better against siege tanks. With this in mind, we're changing the Siege Mode damage of the siege tank from 50 to 35, +15 vs. armored; to correspond with this, damage upgrades will be changed from +5 to +3, +2 vs. armored. This change reduces the base damage of the siege tank against light and unarmored units, as well as the splash damage.
The day mech TvP died.
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actually, I would have loved to see the base damage drop.
When Hellbats beat Roaches, Tanks, Marauders and Stalker cost effective as long as you drop them on top of the opponents army (with some splash damage of course) there has to be something wrong with a unit that is like a baneling to light units, just doesn't die and does not cost gas. Imagine if Marauders had 15 base damage and +5 vs armored, instead of 10 + 10. Yeah, it wouldn't even be funny, unless antiair is desired there would not be much incentive to make Marines over Marauders anymore, as they would dominate both vs light and vs armored. But that is the very same as the current Hellbat. Make it 12 +18 vs light, instead of 18 + 12 vs light. And if you are concerned about any timings, you can still adjust it to 12 + 12 pre pre ignitor and 12 + 18 afterwards.
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On July 11 2013 04:05 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 03:12 MoonCricket wrote:
While I'm thankful Hellbat drops and Hellbat pushes are being nerfed in TvT and TvZ, and I look forward to 1 Gas Banshees in TvZ, I'm concerned the Hellbat will be MIA in TvP because Infernal Pre-Igniter is too much of an investment for Hellbats just to have bonus damage vs Probes and Zealots. As assanine as it sounds, I'd rather Hellbats have 18 + 10 vs Shields so Hellbats could 2 shot Probes and have a high DPS vs a range of Protoss units instead of hard countering Zealots and +5 vs light from Infernal Pre-Igniter so they could 2 shot Drones and Marines without Combat Shield.
I think rolling all of the bonus damage into Infernal Pre-Igniter is just the exit of Hellbats from TvP, because while the unit is still going to be a strong, mid-game transitional tool in TvT and TvZ just because of the viability of 2xFactory play for Blue Flame Hellions into Blue Flame Hellbats and Mech in general, I'm pretty sure Terrans are just going to go straight for Widow Mine drops or proxy Widow Mines in TvP and then Bio with a dead Factory pretty often. You can already do 1 gas banshees. The new patch wont allow you to hit a crisp cloak timing off one gas.
I'll have to look at the timing again, but Gas first should be able to pull it off I think.
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EPT
