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On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone
All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats.
Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ...
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hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho.
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On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ...
Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^.
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I think this set of changes is fine, but I don't think it will accomplish what Blizzard wants it to: reduced number of hellbat drops. All this patch will do, in my opinion, is increase the number of players like DeMu opening cloak banshee, and players that already did hellbat drops will still do them because they will still be good. The only thing this change really accomplishes is that it causes hellbats to not be as strong against early all-ins, which, especially for lower tier players, significantly reduces the attraction of mech, specifically tank/hellbat mech.
(I also agree that Hellbat/Tank mech with no Thors in TvT will be EXTREMELY risky to do now with the possibility of banshees happening just about any time it wants.)
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On July 09 2013 02:34 purakushi wrote:
My question is if hellbats are going to shoot blue flames after the upgrade.
Should be  Imagine Blue Flame Hellbat. Sounds strange
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On July 11 2013 14:22 F.O.A.D. wrote:
hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho.
Using a 5 syllable word doesn't make your opinion based on 0 evidence valid. This is the second nerf within 2 weeks to Terran (the first being the buff to warp prism). The nerf will have huge impact on the game quickly. Blizzard is doing the opposite of what they said they would do which is chill out and see how the game naturally evolves.
On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals).
You must not understand sc2. Anything which improves a unit's use is a buff for the unit and consequently for the race overall. There is no disputing this.
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On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^.
You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all).
>
I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps).
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On July 11 2013 14:34 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:22 F.O.A.D. wrote:
hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho. Using a 5 syllable word doesn't make your opinion based on 0 evidence valid. This is the second nerf within 2 weeks to Terran (the first being the buff to warp prism). The nerf will have huge impact on the game quickly. Blizzard is doing the opposite of what they said they would do which is chill out and see how the game naturally evolves. Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). You must not understand sc2. Anything which improves a unit's use is a buff for the unit and consequently for the race overall. There is no disputing this.
it's actually 6 syllables LOL, but thanks for the laff, biased T-player.
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On July 11 2013 14:34 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:22 F.O.A.D. wrote:
hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho. Using a 5 syllable word doesn't make your opinion based on 0 evidence valid. This is the second nerf within 2 weeks to Terran (the first being the buff to warp prism). The nerf will have huge impact on the game quickly. Blizzard is doing the opposite of what they said they would do which is chill out and see how the game naturally evolves.
First of all, "unequivocally" is six syllables.
Second, Blizzard has been pretty good at "chilling out", but even Terrans are saying that hellbats are a problem, and Blizzard gave a series of justifications for hellbats being nerfed (for two whole in-game minutes). At least Blizzard is patching with small changes, rather than huge modifications.
Third, I'm a little uneasy about you claiming a Protoss buff as a Terran nerf. I guess if you want to stretch out the definitions of nerf and buff and talk about them in terms of every race, then sure, everything could be affected... but I think that most people use those terms to refer to the specific unit or race that's being changed. It seems that you're grouping the Protoss buff as a Terran nerf (why not Zerg nerf? did they get nerfed twice because of warp prism and banshee buffs?) just so you can complain that Terrans are being attacked by Blizzard far too many times. There are separate reasons for the warp prism buff and the hellbat nerf, and none of those reasons are "to stick it to Terrans twice as hard".
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On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps).
You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well.
But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is.
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On July 11 2013 14:47 F.O.A.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:34 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 11 2013 14:22 F.O.A.D. wrote:
hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho. Using a 5 syllable word doesn't make your opinion based on 0 evidence valid. This is the second nerf within 2 weeks to Terran (the first being the buff to warp prism). The nerf will have huge impact on the game quickly. Blizzard is doing the opposite of what they said they would do which is chill out and see how the game naturally evolves. On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). You must not understand sc2. Anything which improves a unit's use is a buff for the unit and consequently for the race overall. There is no disputing this. it's actually 6 syllables LOL, but thanks for the laff, biased T-player.
First of all, welcome to Teamliquid. I will quickly warn you about your attitude, as the way you post combined with being very new will get you banned sooner more likely than later. Secondly you blatantly balance whine. You give no reasoning as to why you think the hellbat is overpowered nor any statistics to back up your claim.
Please inform yourself before posting, explain why you believe the hellbat is overpowered and I'll happily answer as 'biased Terran player' and explain why the hellbat and its strength is needed as not just defensive tool, but also threat to the opponent to not give the opponent a chance to get away with everything.
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On July 11 2013 15:00 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:47 F.O.A.D. wrote:On July 11 2013 14:34 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 11 2013 14:22 F.O.A.D. wrote:
hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho. Using a 5 syllable word doesn't make your opinion based on 0 evidence valid. This is the second nerf within 2 weeks to Terran (the first being the buff to warp prism). The nerf will have huge impact on the game quickly. Blizzard is doing the opposite of what they said they would do which is chill out and see how the game naturally evolves. On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). You must not understand sc2. Anything which improves a unit's use is a buff for the unit and consequently for the race overall. There is no disputing this. it's actually 6 syllables LOL, but thanks for the laff, biased T-player. First of all, welcome to Teamliquid. I will quickly warn you about your attitude, as the way you post combined with being very new will get you banned sooner more likely than later. Secondly you blatantly balance whine. You give no reasoning as to why you think the hellbat is overpowered nor any statistics to back up your claim. Please inform yourself before posting, explain why you believe the hellbat is overpowered and I'll happily answer as 'biased Terran player' and explain why the hellbat and its strength is needed as not just defensive tool, but also threat to the opponent to not give the opponent a chance to get away with everything.
rather, how about you inform yourself before posting, mr. backseat moderator? you want evidence? go watch the past few months' worth of GS(T)L/OSL/SPL/WCS VODs. or have you alrdy done so and youre really just that ignorant/blind/biased? it is not blatant balance whine on my part, it is a stating of fact (notice how the vast majority, blizzard inclusive, agree with me). and uhh...thanks anyway, but i'll pass on your "happy answer"...you've already proven amply that your opinion is "blatantly" skewed by bias, and thus useless.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I see terran not making hellbats early game anymore for 2 base timings, but still will be a viable unit to have late game (in tvp it feels like a must vs high zealot count)
This feels appropriate, but i'm worried about banshees being able to fill it's role in early harass, especially in the TvP machup.
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On July 11 2013 14:33 SorrowShine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 02:34 purakushi wrote:
My question is if hellbats are going to shoot blue flames after the upgrade. Should be Imagine Blue Flame Hellbat. Sounds strange
They'll almost be Aquabats!
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On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is.
You keep insulting me and being stupid ...
I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats.
EDIT:
The big "stupid" part of your post is that it isnt about the power of the Hellbats at all but about the "risk vs reward" part of them. They are cheap and can be used to get a disproportionately good amount of harrassment in the form of worker kills while being really tough to take down. A Hellbat drop to kill workers costs 300/100 and if you compare that to a Medivac filled with Marines it is 200 minerals less. Since there are only two Hellbats in the Medivac it takes far less time to unload the full force and thus it is an extreme burst damage comparable to a Reaver drop ... although better targettable than that.
Due to the low cost you can try and try and try again without losing / risking much ... and that is the bad part about the unit. As an army unit it is slow and tanky and those dont make an army OP or awesomely powerful ... especially in a game where mobility is king.
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On July 11 2013 15:25 F.O.A.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 15:00 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:47 F.O.A.D. wrote:On July 11 2013 14:34 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 11 2013 14:22 F.O.A.D. wrote:
hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho. Using a 5 syllable word doesn't make your opinion based on 0 evidence valid. This is the second nerf within 2 weeks to Terran (the first being the buff to warp prism). The nerf will have huge impact on the game quickly. Blizzard is doing the opposite of what they said they would do which is chill out and see how the game naturally evolves. On July 11 2013 14:05 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:23 Whitewing wrote:On July 11 2013 12:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 11 2013 08:26 jkim91 wrote:On July 11 2013 08:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that this is a big terran nerf. If they wanted to equalize, they should buff the banshees attack, not make cloack cheaper. Cloack has almost no late game potential.
Blizzard's fetish with coin flip invisible units is annoying. DTS should have never got buffed nor banshees.
This patch is supposedly supposed to make tvt more fun, but instead it will make it more volatile since cloacked banshees can show up at any moment. It will also make tank/hellbat without thors very risky. I don't like the dynamic at all.
People need to remember back to WOL when terran got a dozen nerfs in a row. Then people complained about zergs for months and months and NOTHING was done. Dejavu. How did DTs get buffed? If you're talking about the dark shrine cost reduction, that's not a buff at all, just like the removal of siege mode research for tanks isn't. How are the dark shrine cost reduction and the removal of siege research not buffs? The former allows for the Protoss to mix in dark templar tech more frequently because it's less of a commitment (especially before the late game), and Terrans can get instant siege ability, which allows for zoning possibilities or emergency defense a lot quicker. Similarly, the fact that hellbats now need to be upgraded to their full potential is clearly a nerf, while the cheaper banshee cloak is clearly a buff. I'm interested to see if more Terrans make banshees now, but then return to making hellbats in a month or so because the hellbat nerf actually isn't that awful (imo). You're both misunderstanding each other, and it's not hard to understand why (with people throwing around the terms buff and nerf left and right with no clear shared meaning). One of you is arguing that it's not a buff to the UNIT. The other is saying it is a buff to the RACE. Both are correct. The unit itself hasn't changed at all, but units don't exist in a vacuum, and the race as a whole can now utilize the unit while doing other things they previously couldn't. I apologize as well. I don't usually see a timing change or an infrastructure cost reduction as a "buff" because it only affects the timing of when the unit pops out or raises the incentive to produce that unit. The unit itself could have been fine before such changes. For example, I see the dark shrine reduction as a good thing or a "buff" because it adds more variety to the gameplay, while not being OP at the same time. But I DON'T see the removal of the siege mode research as a "buff" because apart from defending from all-ins, it serves nothing to "buff" the siege tank in other aspects of Terran gameplay (tanks in TvZ is a no due to vipers/swarm hosts, tanks in TvP is a no due to immortals). You must not understand sc2. Anything which improves a unit's use is a buff for the unit and consequently for the race overall. There is no disputing this. it's actually 6 syllables LOL, but thanks for the laff, biased T-player. First of all, welcome to Teamliquid. I will quickly warn you about your attitude, as the way you post combined with being very new will get you banned sooner more likely than later. Secondly you blatantly balance whine. You give no reasoning as to why you think the hellbat is overpowered nor any statistics to back up your claim. Please inform yourself before posting, explain why you believe the hellbat is overpowered and I'll happily answer as 'biased Terran player' and explain why the hellbat and its strength is needed as not just defensive tool, but also threat to the opponent to not give the opponent a chance to get away with everything. rather, how about you inform yourself before posting, mr. backseat moderator? you want evidence? go watch the past few months' worth of GS(T)L/OSL/SPL/WCS VODs. or have you alrdy done so and youre really just that ignorant/blind/biased? it is not blatant balance whine on my part, it is a stating of fact (notice how the vast majority, blizzard inclusive, agree with me). and uhh...thanks anyway, but i'll pass on your "happy answer"...you've already proven amply that your opinion is "blatantly" skewed by bias, and thus useless.
How do you explain superior winrate on the highest level of competition in favor of Protoss against Terran (56%) and merely 51% in favor of Terran in Terran vs Zerg? I do watch the highest level of competition and hate to inform you, that even yesterday in the KeSPa qualifier, Protoss dominated Terran for example.
Strong units and even worse, strong units with synergy with others will always be strong when introduced. The hellbat got time to rule and top-players adjusted. It was less of a concern for Protoss than for Zerg, but it didn't single-handily win games. That Blizzard does nerf the hellbat doesn't mean they 'agree with you' but that they didn't like the current state of the game, they stated that it was for TvT reasons which I can fully understand. If you want a good example for Protoss who took no damage of hellbats, see sOs. (Asian Indoor Masters vs Flash, WCS vs INNovation)
For Zergs I don't have good games in mind right now, but as I previously stated, you blatantly balance whine, without giving opinion or reasoning for it and also word yourself very aggressive.
ShangHai KeSpa qualifier as example: 20-13 PvT equals 60% winrate.
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On July 11 2013 15:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is. You keep insulting me and being stupid ... I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats.
So your 'he didn'T lose anything to hellbats and yet lost' into not reply when people point you out was clever? It was stupid whining and when people gave you contrary to your post, you simply ignored it.
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On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ...
basically u have no idea of TvX its not just a delay ,you are way more commited now, its almost like an allin in TvZ and TvP cauz u need now 2factories instead of 1 + research, its a huge investment cauz u need to transistion to bio afterwards, fe like a 2 fac blue flame hellion allin vs Z, in TvT it might be just a delay cauz u can transistion into mech afterwards but at other MUs its not just a delay..... plz dont post so much nonsense ty
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On July 11 2013 05:48 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 04:05 rikter wrote:On July 11 2013 03:12 MoonCricket wrote:
While I'm thankful Hellbat drops and Hellbat pushes are being nerfed in TvT and TvZ, and I look forward to 1 Gas Banshees in TvZ, I'm concerned the Hellbat will be MIA in TvP because Infernal Pre-Igniter is too much of an investment for Hellbats just to have bonus damage vs Probes and Zealots. As assanine as it sounds, I'd rather Hellbats have 18 + 10 vs Shields so Hellbats could 2 shot Probes and have a high DPS vs a range of Protoss units instead of hard countering Zealots and +5 vs light from Infernal Pre-Igniter so they could 2 shot Drones and Marines without Combat Shield.
I think rolling all of the bonus damage into Infernal Pre-Igniter is just the exit of Hellbats from TvP, because while the unit is still going to be a strong, mid-game transitional tool in TvT and TvZ just because of the viability of 2xFactory play for Blue Flame Hellions into Blue Flame Hellbats and Mech in general, I'm pretty sure Terrans are just going to go straight for Widow Mine drops or proxy Widow Mines in TvP and then Bio with a dead Factory pretty often. You can already do 1 gas banshees. The new patch wont allow you to hit a crisp cloak timing off one gas. I'll have to look at the timing again, but Gas first should be able to pull it off I think.
Gas first, followed by rax. While rax builds you mine 100 gas, build factory after. While factory finishes you mine another 100 gas. While starport finishes you mine another 100 gas, which lets you build a banshee right away. While the banshee builds you mine another 100 gas. Now, you can either start cloak and delay banshee 2 or you can delay cloak and start banshee 2. Either way you wont have the gas to maintain continuous production while also getting cloak.
Basically you still need pretty much the same second gas timing.
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So what day is the patch supposed to go down?
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EPT
