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On July 11 2013 15:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). >  I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is. You keep insulting me and being stupid ... I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats. EDIT: The big "stupid" part of your post is that it isnt about the power of the Hellbats at all but about the "risk vs reward" part of them. They are cheap and can be used to get a disproportionately good amount of harrassment in the form of worker kills while being really tough to take down. A Hellbat drop to kill workers costs 300/100 and if you compare that to a Medivac filled with Marines it is 200 minerals less. Since there are only two Hellbats in the Medivac it takes far less time to unload the full force and thus it is an extreme burst damage comparable to a Reaver drop ... although better targettable than that. Due to the low cost you can try and try and try again without losing / risking much ... and that is the bad part about the unit. As an army unit it is slow and tanky and those dont make an army OP or awesomely powerful ... especially in a game where mobility is king.
To be honest, I don't feel like its a low-risk/high reward type of play. If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy which already makes up for mining time lost (given hellbat opener) after CC first you will probably sprint ahead if the opponent doesn't prepare well, but I disagree that its low to no risk. Losing the medivacs (especially the first ones) is crucial for Terran as they help the core of your army to stay alive or be evacuated later on. You can either commit and lose your units or you threaten with those drops and don't deal as much.
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On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is.
Wow, didn't think that comment required this amount of personal attack. Chill. Relax. Everyone can have their own opinion just as you're entitled to yours.
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On July 11 2013 16:18 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 15:28 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is. You keep insulting me and being stupid ... I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats. EDIT: The big "stupid" part of your post is that it isnt about the power of the Hellbats at all but about the "risk vs reward" part of them. They are cheap and can be used to get a disproportionately good amount of harrassment in the form of worker kills while being really tough to take down. A Hellbat drop to kill workers costs 300/100 and if you compare that to a Medivac filled with Marines it is 200 minerals less. Since there are only two Hellbats in the Medivac it takes far less time to unload the full force and thus it is an extreme burst damage comparable to a Reaver drop ... although better targettable than that. Due to the low cost you can try and try and try again without losing / risking much ... and that is the bad part about the unit. As an army unit it is slow and tanky and those dont make an army OP or awesomely powerful ... especially in a game where mobility is king. To be honest, I don't feel like its a low-risk/high reward type of play. If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy which already makes up for mining time lost (given hellbat opener) after CC first you will probably sprint ahead if the opponent doesn't prepare well, but I disagree that its low to no risk. Losing the medivacs (especially the first ones) is crucial for Terran as they help the core of your army to stay alive or be evacuated later on. You can either commit and lose your units or you threaten with those drops and don't deal as much.
Could you eloborate how terran fall behind in ecomony if they go hellbat drop
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On July 11 2013 17:03 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 16:18 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 15:28 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is. You keep insulting me and being stupid ... I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats. EDIT: The big "stupid" part of your post is that it isnt about the power of the Hellbats at all but about the "risk vs reward" part of them. They are cheap and can be used to get a disproportionately good amount of harrassment in the form of worker kills while being really tough to take down. A Hellbat drop to kill workers costs 300/100 and if you compare that to a Medivac filled with Marines it is 200 minerals less. Since there are only two Hellbats in the Medivac it takes far less time to unload the full force and thus it is an extreme burst damage comparable to a Reaver drop ... although better targettable than that. Due to the low cost you can try and try and try again without losing / risking much ... and that is the bad part about the unit. As an army unit it is slow and tanky and those dont make an army OP or awesomely powerful ... especially in a game where mobility is king. To be honest, I don't feel like its a low-risk/high reward type of play. If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy which already makes up for mining time lost (given hellbat opener) after CC first you will probably sprint ahead if the opponent doesn't prepare well, but I disagree that its low to no risk. Losing the medivacs (especially the first ones) is crucial for Terran as they help the core of your army to stay alive or be evacuated later on. You can either commit and lose your units or you threaten with those drops and don't deal as much. Could you eloborate how terran fall behind in ecomony if they go hellbat drop
As I explained, when you are going for a hellbat drop opening (expansion after hellbat drop or even dual-hellbat drop) your opponent will have the expansion up earlier and besides having to deal damage, a later expansion usually means less economy. This applies especially in TvT, I don't think any Terran would actually be mad enough to try it as a onebase opener against Protoss or Zerg.
That would also be the reason why a dual hellbat drop is followed up by a triple CC in TvT
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On July 11 2013 17:06 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 17:03 Foxxan wrote:On July 11 2013 16:18 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 15:28 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is. You keep insulting me and being stupid ... I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats. EDIT: The big "stupid" part of your post is that it isnt about the power of the Hellbats at all but about the "risk vs reward" part of them. They are cheap and can be used to get a disproportionately good amount of harrassment in the form of worker kills while being really tough to take down. A Hellbat drop to kill workers costs 300/100 and if you compare that to a Medivac filled with Marines it is 200 minerals less. Since there are only two Hellbats in the Medivac it takes far less time to unload the full force and thus it is an extreme burst damage comparable to a Reaver drop ... although better targettable than that. Due to the low cost you can try and try and try again without losing / risking much ... and that is the bad part about the unit. As an army unit it is slow and tanky and those dont make an army OP or awesomely powerful ... especially in a game where mobility is king. To be honest, I don't feel like its a low-risk/high reward type of play. If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy which already makes up for mining time lost (given hellbat opener) after CC first you will probably sprint ahead if the opponent doesn't prepare well, but I disagree that its low to no risk. Losing the medivacs (especially the first ones) is crucial for Terran as they help the core of your army to stay alive or be evacuated later on. You can either commit and lose your units or you threaten with those drops and don't deal as much. Could you eloborate how terran fall behind in ecomony if they go hellbat drop As I explained, when you are going for a hellbat drop opening (expansion after hellbat drop or even dual-hellbat drop) your opponent will have the expansion up earlier and besides having to deal damage, a later expansion usually means less economy. This applies especially in TvT, I don't think any Terran would actually be mad enough to try it as a onebase opener against Protoss or Zerg. That would also be the reason why a dual hellbat drop is followed up by a triple CC in TvT
you talk mainly tvt now or?
Iam curious about tvz, how terran fall behind economywise
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the blue flame upgrade should give hellbat a little bit more dmg than the actual dmg just to balance the fact that u have to research something
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Does everyone figure that two base hellbat openings for terran are a thing of the past now so that mass queen builds might return?
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On July 11 2013 17:22 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 17:06 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 17:03 Foxxan wrote:On July 11 2013 16:18 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 15:28 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 08:40 Snowbear wrote:
I'm 100% sure people will realise a week after the patch that hellbat drops are still sick strong, and they will start doing it again. Meanwhile the hellbat is actually useless in tvz and tvp as an army unit (the 150 gas upgrade is just way too high, every terran knows that gas is a huge problem early-midgame).
So basicly:
- drops (the actual problem): still there
- hellbats in army: gone All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats. Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is. You keep insulting me and being stupid ... I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats. EDIT: The big "stupid" part of your post is that it isnt about the power of the Hellbats at all but about the "risk vs reward" part of them. They are cheap and can be used to get a disproportionately good amount of harrassment in the form of worker kills while being really tough to take down. A Hellbat drop to kill workers costs 300/100 and if you compare that to a Medivac filled with Marines it is 200 minerals less. Since there are only two Hellbats in the Medivac it takes far less time to unload the full force and thus it is an extreme burst damage comparable to a Reaver drop ... although better targettable than that. Due to the low cost you can try and try and try again without losing / risking much ... and that is the bad part about the unit. As an army unit it is slow and tanky and those dont make an army OP or awesomely powerful ... especially in a game where mobility is king. To be honest, I don't feel like its a low-risk/high reward type of play. If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy which already makes up for mining time lost (given hellbat opener) after CC first you will probably sprint ahead if the opponent doesn't prepare well, but I disagree that its low to no risk. Losing the medivacs (especially the first ones) is crucial for Terran as they help the core of your army to stay alive or be evacuated later on. You can either commit and lose your units or you threaten with those drops and don't deal as much. Could you eloborate how terran fall behind in ecomony if they go hellbat drop As I explained, when you are going for a hellbat drop opening (expansion after hellbat drop or even dual-hellbat drop) your opponent will have the expansion up earlier and besides having to deal damage, a later expansion usually means less economy. This applies especially in TvT, I don't think any Terran would actually be mad enough to try it as a onebase opener against Protoss or Zerg. That would also be the reason why a dual hellbat drop is followed up by a triple CC in TvT you talk mainly tvt now or? Iam curious about tvz, how terran fall behind economywise
Did you read my post? I clearly stated that this applies to hellbat drop builds as opener, not after the initial cc first or gasless expansion or even any expansion build at all. When doing hellbat drops after an expansion its just like any other aggressive option, if you deal damage you will be ahead, if you completely fail you will be behind, but thats what some people here try to argue. Dealing zero damage while commiting and losing hellbats/medivacs is being even or ahead according to some players here, which is wrong.
I would say the best bet against hellbat styles is a roach/bane style with later aggression (as in no allin, HyuN, Snute) as you can defend hellbat drops with it pretty well and still have good saturation. The other option would be a roach/bane timing which leaves you open to the drops, but has the potential to end the game.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Start playing nice in this topic or you will all get a week off.
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On July 11 2013 14:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 14:34 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 11 2013 14:22 F.O.A.D. wrote:
hellbats are unequivocally OP in all (TvX) matchups. to say otherwise is to be a biased terran player and/or in denial. all this "they needed to be nerfed for the sake of TvT but the other mu's will now be off-kilter" is utter rubbish. im not sure if this most recent nerf will be adequate, tho. Using a 5 syllable word doesn't make your opinion based on 0 evidence valid. This is the second nerf within 2 weeks to Terran (the first being the buff to warp prism). The nerf will have huge impact on the game quickly. Blizzard is doing the opposite of what they said they would do which is chill out and see how the game naturally evolves. First of all, "unequivocally" is six syllables. Second, Blizzard has been pretty good at "chilling out", but even Terrans are saying that hellbats are a problem, and Blizzard gave a series of justifications for hellbats being nerfed (for two whole in-game minutes). At least Blizzard is patching with small changes, rather than huge modifications. Third, I'm a little uneasy about you claiming a Protoss buff as a Terran nerf. I guess if you want to stretch out the definitions of nerf and buff and talk about them in terms of every race, then sure, everything could be affected... but I think that most people use those terms to refer to the specific unit or race that's being changed. It seems that you're grouping the Protoss buff as a Terran nerf (why not Zerg nerf? did they get nerfed twice because of warp prism and banshee buffs?) just so you can complain that Terrans are being attacked by Blizzard far too many times. There are separate reasons for the warp prism buff and the hellbat nerf, and none of those reasons are "to stick it to Terrans twice as hard".
1) 1 of 3 people to correct me on the amount of syllables, but miss the point. Big words do not equal stable argument.
2)2 nerfs in 2 weeks isn't chilling out. I never like the way blizz goes about nerfs. It's all done on the inside when it should be transparent. There should be 21 different top level pros voting on these changes (7 from each race).
3) A protoss buff is a zerg AND a Terran nerf. This makes sense to me. If they are stronger, you are weaker.
I would honestly be way more happy if they nerfed the hellbat and didn't buff banshee. Buffed banshees are bullshit because they introduce more gambling instead wins earned by skill.
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On July 11 2013 17:33 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 17:22 Foxxan wrote:On July 11 2013 17:06 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 17:03 Foxxan wrote:On July 11 2013 16:18 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 15:28 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:57 NarutO wrote:On July 11 2013 14:43 Rabiator wrote:On July 11 2013 14:25 blade55555 wrote:On July 11 2013 14:20 Rabiator wrote:
[quote]
All it takes is researching blue flame to get the old efficiency back. So basically it is just a delay ... which wasnt really the problem, because you could defend the first three Hellbat drops without a big loss and then get totally burned by the fourth one ... so super early timing isnt really the issue. Since you are "forced" to get blue flame people might experiment with a combined Hellbat+Hellion drop ... since running workers away from the Hellbat lines them up nicely for the Hellion. Alternatively you can be knocking at the front with Hellions while dropping the back with Hellbats.
Hellbats in the army will be just as useful because that is mid-late game and gives you ample time to get that upgrade. Basically Terrans have switched Siege Tech for Blue Flame ... Well hellbats still 2 shot lings without the upgrade. Like the hellbat nerf won't affect tvz much except now it takes 3 shots to kill workers instead of 2 ^^. You forgot to mention that they still have the same crapton amount of hit points ... and are thus still able to tank stuff (which was their main purpose after all). > I cant wait to see how much the game will NOT change after this adjustment (apart from more Banshee openings perhaps). You keep crying and complaining, could you stop you uninformed stupidity? When you called everyone and once again me out why mOonglade lost a certain game, I explained it to you as well as others, and you didn'T bother to reply anymore. You are crying for the sake of crying, being uninformed, dumb and probably bad. If hellbats were as overpowered as people would make them sound, not just would Terran dominate, but also do it on the lower-levels of progaming as well. But as you can see, Terran dominates neither. Not pro level, not semi-pro level. Now go ask yourself why that is. You keep insulting me and being stupid ... I was NOT crying about the change ... just about the people who cry about the "big nerf". READ and THINK before posting insults. Here is the "tl;dr" of my posts above ... since you seem to need that:
tl;dr
The game wont change much with the nerf to Hellbats. EDIT: The big "stupid" part of your post is that it isnt about the power of the Hellbats at all but about the "risk vs reward" part of them. They are cheap and can be used to get a disproportionately good amount of harrassment in the form of worker kills while being really tough to take down. A Hellbat drop to kill workers costs 300/100 and if you compare that to a Medivac filled with Marines it is 200 minerals less. Since there are only two Hellbats in the Medivac it takes far less time to unload the full force and thus it is an extreme burst damage comparable to a Reaver drop ... although better targettable than that. Due to the low cost you can try and try and try again without losing / risking much ... and that is the bad part about the unit. As an army unit it is slow and tanky and those dont make an army OP or awesomely powerful ... especially in a game where mobility is king. To be honest, I don't feel like its a low-risk/high reward type of play. If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy which already makes up for mining time lost (given hellbat opener) after CC first you will probably sprint ahead if the opponent doesn't prepare well, but I disagree that its low to no risk. Losing the medivacs (especially the first ones) is crucial for Terran as they help the core of your army to stay alive or be evacuated later on. You can either commit and lose your units or you threaten with those drops and don't deal as much. Could you eloborate how terran fall behind in ecomony if they go hellbat drop As I explained, when you are going for a hellbat drop opening (expansion after hellbat drop or even dual-hellbat drop) your opponent will have the expansion up earlier and besides having to deal damage, a later expansion usually means less economy. This applies especially in TvT, I don't think any Terran would actually be mad enough to try it as a onebase opener against Protoss or Zerg. That would also be the reason why a dual hellbat drop is followed up by a triple CC in TvT you talk mainly tvt now or? Iam curious about tvz, how terran fall behind economywise Did you read my post? I clearly stated that this applies to hellbat drop builds as opener, not after the initial cc first or gasless expansion or even any expansion build at all. When doing hellbat drops after an expansion its just like any other aggressive option, if you deal damage you will be ahead, if you completely fail you will be behind, but thats what some people here try to argue. Dealing zero damage while commiting and losing hellbats/medivacs is being even or ahead according to some players here, which is wrong. I would say the best bet against hellbat styles is a roach/bane style with later aggression (as in no allin, HyuN, Snute) as you can defend hellbat drops with it pretty well and still have good saturation. The other option would be a roach/bane timing which leaves you open to the drops, but has the potential to end the game.
Yes i did read your post
you said before:
If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy
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Yes i did read your post
you said before:
If you are going for hellbat drops after CC first or essentially to start of, you will fall behind in economy
If your not putting recources in ways to gain recources you will be behind anyway. That is clear.
The intresting part is how much are you behind as result of the built and how much is your oponent behind if he react properly.
The problem with the hellbat drop in my eyes was that even if you where perfectly prepared a double hellbat drop still does a lot of damage. I like it that they now 3 shot instead of 2 shot drones. This way more of my precious drones will survive.
I find it okay that if you dont scout a build (and don't prepare) it must do a lot of damage.
But if you scout it and you prepare in the it should damage the opponent more then it does to you.
This felt not the case with hellbat drops for me. So for this reason i like that they nerved them in the early game.
An other thing i have problems with is the following. Hellbat drops where so good that 95% of the times i saw a late natural or low unit count it ment hellbat drop. Now it will be more 50/50 ish. This will be harder for us zergs to react.
So that is an advantage i think.
but we can only guess about the future. Let's see how the matchup will envolve.
i wish everyone a lot of fun trying the changes out.
gl hf!!
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i wish they made the hellion/hellbat transformation free (not with upgrades) now that hellbats are nerfed. it gives a good defense and scouting ability
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On July 11 2013 20:05 ooDi wrote:
i wish they made the hellion/hellbat transformation free (not with upgrades) now that hellbats are nerfed. it gives a good defense and scouting ability
I'm not sure I see the necessity in such a buff though. Sure, it would make Terran stronger, but does it fill in a niche that Terrans are currently lacking- and specifically need patch assistance with (or will the metagame flesh out some possible solutions)? Or is it a buff just for the sake of having a buff to offset the hellbat nerf?
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On July 11 2013 20:05 ooDi wrote:
i wish they made the hellion/hellbat transformation free (not with upgrades) now that hellbats are nerfed. it gives a good defense and scouting ability
Great idea, but don't expect any buffs following these nerfs. If you look back at wings of liberty, you should know exactly what to expect. New nerfs every time you login.
Don't expect these nerfs to appease the z players. This small nerf will barely quench their thirst. It's pretty hard to retire an army once they are marching on the enemy with pitchforks in hand. The masses will never stop their qq.
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On July 09 2013 03:10 -NegativeZero- wrote:
I still think hellbats do too much damage to non-light units - they are supposed to be anti-light specialists, yet they do almost a stalker's full (+bonus) DPS, plus splash, to non-light targets. Maybe switch the base/bonus damage to 12 (+6 vs light) plus the extra +12 to light with the upgrade.
Best post in the thread .
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On July 11 2013 21:25 MrSourGit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:10 -NegativeZero- wrote:
I still think hellbats do too much damage to non-light units - they are supposed to be anti-light specialists, yet they do almost a stalker's full (+bonus) DPS, plus splash, to non-light targets. Maybe switch the base/bonus damage to 12 (+6 vs light) plus the extra +12 to light with the upgrade. Best post in the thread .
i think so too, it was especially funny on the latest inside the game to hear thorzain talking about how he aims to kill roaches/queens with his hellbat drops anyways
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so does anyone know when it will be live? apparently it was delayed?
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Yea, I haven't played all week because I don't want to play against Hellbats. When does this patch go live?
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And it's just stupid to play the couple of days in a metagame, that you know will shift away very soon. When they say "this week", they should stick to it, or give out information when the patch will hit. :o
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EPT
