The first half of the Challenger League qualifiers for WCS America and Europe have concluded, with four players qualifying for each region so far. Europe saw two familiar names in DH champion Stardust and Britain's Bling top the first qualifier, while qualifier #2 ended in upsets as Alastor and Starbuck advanced, defeating NightEnD and Genius respectively in their final matches.
In the American region, Korean domination continued to be the main story as Arthur, Hack, HyuN, and Sound took the first four qualifying spots. While non-Korean players like Xigua, Comm, and LsEbA managed to make it to the final eight, none of them were able to reach the semi-final round of the qualifier tournaments.
Four more Challenger spots remain for each region.
WCS EU seems pretty well set up, mainly EU players and has fresh new European players popping in through the qualis and at least StarDust lives in EU too. Wish the same could be said about WCS NA!
EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
I wonder if the koreans use VPN to connect to EU? I have used this technology quite a bit and it should be able to smooth out latency, a top class business isp with guaranteed packet delivery will may be reduce lag by 100ms
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
Koreans can't play on european lags, so NA is full of them. Only Stardust qualified for WCS from EU cause he is living in Switzerland or Germany, not sure.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
To be honest, the named Koreans should have taken players like CPU with offrace and latency if they are so good, that was my point. Hyun does play cups and wins them on EU, Polt did so as well when he was in Korea. So its not like its unplayable and especially perform even against high-calibre, but those Koreans are simply not good enough to hold against Europe. Also Revenge & waCk for example live in Germany as far as I know.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 16:25 Targe wrote:
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
To be honest, the named Koreans should have taken players like CPU with offrace and latency if they are so good, that was my point. Hyun does play cups and wins them on EU, Polt did so as well when he was in Korea. So its not like its unplayable and especially perform even against high-calibre, but those Koreans are simply not good enough to hold against Europe. Also Revenge & waCk for example live in Germany as far as I know.
So your trying to imply that the Koreans in the qualifiers aren't good enough to take games off bottom rung EU players offline as well, and that cross server lag isn't a valid cause of the losses? LMFAO. Ok, lets agree to disagree.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
It was in fact not that many Koreans: San, Genius, StarDust, InCa, VINES, HoeJJa and Size. I won't disagree that lag probably played a big factor in these results, but it is very noteworthy imo that San crushed a ton of foreigners online recently, his rampage only stopped by BlinG in the semis of the 1st qualifier. So I don't think it's entirely fair to downplay it as being all due to lag.
I'm happy to see Starbuck made it, and the fact that he beat Genius makes it all the better! ^^
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 16:25 Targe wrote:
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
To be honest, the named Koreans should have taken players like CPU with offrace and latency if they are so good, that was my point. Hyun does play cups and wins them on EU, Polt did so as well when he was in Korea. So its not like its unplayable and especially perform even against high-calibre, but those Koreans are simply not good enough to hold against Europe. Also Revenge & waCk for example live in Germany as far as I know.
So your trying to imply that the Koreans in the qualifiers aren't good enough to take games off bottom rung EU players offline as well, and that cross server lag isn't a valid cause of the losses? LMFAO. Ok, lets agree to disagree.
I am saying they lost to absolutely no-name players that they should beat regardless of latency. As I pointed out, HyuN and Polt do win cups and did beat high-calibre players from Korea to Europe so that should be enough evidence that you can actually compete even though its a disadvantage. Now we have players from Korea losing to nearly absolute no-names if you are not involved into the scene from the respective country so I dare to say that yes, even if the whole qualifier would be offline, those players would not have qualified, as we have tons of excellent players that are far superior to those who they have lost to.
Just to name a few, HeRoMarine, NightEnD, Sjow, HappyZerg, Harstem. But keep on being ignorant as hell.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
Obviously that's the case and I'm not implying that all Europeans are better than Americans, it's just tiring to see people always blaming lag for the reason the Europeans fairing better.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 16:25 Targe wrote:
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
Obviously that's the case and I'm not implying that all Europeans are better than Americans, it's just tiring to see people always blaming lag for the reason the Europeans fairing better.
euorpean players seem to be better than americans, but regardless lag is the sole reason for europeans doing better.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 16:25 Targe wrote:
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
Obviously that's the case and I'm not implying that all Europeans are better than Americans, it's just tiring to see people always blaming lag for the reason the Europeans fairing better.
Quite true, not trying to say that Europeans that made it didn't deserve to. But if the KR-NA lag was as bad as KR-EU lag NA players would've made it further, maybe even qualify.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
On July 08 2013 16:25 Targe wrote:
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Perhaps the EU players are better?
Not saying this isn't the case, but there is a clear difference in latency from Korea to America and Korea to Europe.
To be honest, the named Koreans should have taken players like CPU with offrace and latency if they are so good, that was my point. Hyun does play cups and wins them on EU, Polt did so as well when he was in Korea. So its not like its unplayable and especially perform even against high-calibre, but those Koreans are simply not good enough to hold against Europe. Also Revenge & waCk for example live in Germany as far as I know.
So your trying to imply that the Koreans in the qualifiers aren't good enough to take games off bottom rung EU players offline as well, and that cross server lag isn't a valid cause of the losses? LMFAO. Ok, lets agree to disagree.
I am saying they lost to absolutely no-name players that they should beat regardless of latency. As I pointed out, HyuN and Polt do win cups and did beat high-calibre players from Korea to Europe so that should be enough evidence that you can actually compete even though its a disadvantage. Now we have players from Korea losing to nearly absolute no-names if you are not involved into the scene from the respective country so I dare to say that yes, even if the whole qualifier would be offline, those players would not have qualified, as we have tons of excellent players that are far superior to those who they have lost to.
Just to name a few, HeRoMarine, NightEnD, Sjow, HappyZerg, Harstem. But keep on being ignorant as hell.
You mad bro? I guess it comes down to name calling like always on TL.
I think, while we see, that the lag can be a factor, it is´nt that huge of a deal. The koreans, who one would expect to get far, got pretty far, San made it to the round of 4 in the first qualifier, Genius had bad bracket luck in the first, runing into Stardust in round 2, and did well in the second, so as we see good runs are possible, even with the lag barrier.
Regarding the other players; both HoeJJa and Size are Code-B players with 0 wins in PL, Size was not even fieldet, Inca is unfortunately not the PvP-god, he once was and VINES did fell of a bit as well, so I would doubt, any of them would make it in an offline qualifier as well; maybe they would have not lost to CPU ad Dizdemon, but when they would probably lose, as soon as they would meet the bigger guns (Harstem, Sjow, TargA and co.).
On July 08 2013 14:17 InsidiA wrote: WCS EU seems pretty well set up, mainly EU players and has fresh new European players popping in through the qualis and at least StarDust lives in EU too. Wish the same could be said about WCS NA!
But the 2 qualifiers are both held by ESL, and have exactly the same format...
Since the qualifiers are exactly the same, the only difference is skill level and unfortunately Americans just aren't as good.
At the rate things are going in the na region BLizzard has 2 options. 1.Introduce some sort of high level commitment to keep low level koreans at bay such as 100% offline qualifiers like they announced in the last reddit ama. 2.Renounce the wcs na completly and put more money in the eu and kr scene.Not that many people will want to see low level koreans who do not even speak english playing in the North American qualifiers.wcs na will have the same viewership problem like last season.
On July 08 2013 14:17 InsidiA wrote: WCS EU seems pretty well set up, mainly EU players and has fresh new European players popping in through the qualis and at least StarDust lives in EU too. Wish the same could be said about WCS NA!
But the 2 qualifiers are both held by ESL, and have exactly the same format...
Since the qualifiers are exactly the same, the only difference is skill level and unfortunately Americans just aren't as good.
To be fair, the AM qualifiers featured more Koreans as well as better Koreans. And it's not fair to blame just the "Americans" either, considering the SEA, Chinese and Taiwanese players got murdered all the same.
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
I'd much prefer offline qualifiers for both EU and NA. Like for NA it could be based in San Francisco an for EU it could be wherever the ro16 was. (Sorry I don't really know EU that well. It would make the respective WCS subsections much more interesting.
On July 08 2013 23:11 KaiserKieran wrote: I'd much prefer offline qualifiers for both EU and NA. Like for NA it could be based in San Francisco an for EU it could be wherever the ro16 was. (Sorry I don't really know EU that well. It would make the respective WCS subsections much more interesting.
The problem would be that you discourage a lot of up-and-coming players doing that, who might not have the financial means to attend a live event (even less if it's just a qualifier).
edit: maybe not a lot of up-and-coming players, but more like all of them, since up-and-coming implies that they are not established yet, which makes it highely likely that they are not on a wealthy team.
On July 08 2013 23:11 KaiserKieran wrote: I'd much prefer offline qualifiers for both EU and NA. Like for NA it could be based in San Francisco an for EU it could be wherever the ro16 was. (Sorry I don't really know EU that well. It would make the respective WCS subsections much more interesting.
The problem would be that you discourage a lot of up-and-coming players doing that, who might not have the financial means to attend a live event (even less if it's just a qualifier).
edit: maybe not a lot of up-and-coming players, but more like all of them, since up-and-coming implies that they are not established yet, which makes it highely likely that they are not on a wealthy team.
Well the wall of Kespa pros in WCS NA is pretty discouraging right now. I don't think a since player from NA, SEA, or China will make it through. Even having challenger league offline would do a lot to make the whole thing more local and improve the local competitive scene.
Can we petition Blizzard to change the name of WCS NA to WCS Korea B league? It would just make everything so much easier.. And to be fair thats what it has become..
On July 08 2013 14:28 Cattlecruiser wrote: EU's wall of lag holds! It is probably that less Koreans tried EU numerically and quality as well but there is no denying that the wall of lag is a significant factor. Hopefully we will see a foreigner come out of the NA qualifiers, but I strongly doubt it.
Wow you are bitter. While its not the best of the best or worse Koreans than the ones participating in NA , check out who they lost to. Its not like CPU, Chatorsws, Avekatten, Melle or Dizdemon are flagships of the European server.
Bitter? I'm more than positive about Koreans winning spots in WCS NA. Also, you made my point. They lost to players that they should take easily in offline events.
Yes bitter, because you feel the need to point out obvious things. We all know about the lagg - so why are you posting?
The reason: You are bitter. You feel the need to start a forum fight by belittling european players, instead of just saying: "Well done, winners!" (no matter what origin they might be)
I’m so glad Bling made it. It was a bit of a kick in the teeth in season 1 after he tried so hard to qualify only to get knocked out of challenger league straight away by the all-protoss-meat-grinder that was group D. Glad to see he’s through once again (and had to beat San to get there) and ready to claim Premier league :D
On July 08 2013 23:11 KaiserKieran wrote: I'd much prefer offline qualifiers for both EU and NA. Like for NA it could be based in San Francisco an for EU it could be wherever the ro16 was. (Sorry I don't really know EU that well. It would make the respective WCS subsections much more interesting.
With regards to EU, you'd ask around 300-400 players from from some 20+ countries (from Iceland to South Africa) to travel all the way to Germany out of their own pocket to play a single elimination qualifier where only the top two proceed?
I'd also like the bus to pick me up outside my house and drop me off outside work. You're never going to get an offline qualifier with over 500 wannabes. It's a logistical nightmare and will be a complete money sink for both players and the host organisation.
On July 08 2013 14:17 InsidiA wrote: WCS EU seems pretty well set up, mainly EU players and has fresh new European players popping in through the qualis and at least StarDust lives in EU too. Wish the same could be said about WCS NA!
Agreed, players like Uzer and Bunny have gone from complete unknowns to players recognised and acknologed for the skill and achievements in the Premier league. As for America, well this is basically now Code A on location, it’s pretty damn silly. I’m almost certain WCS will have at least some form of reigion lock in 2014 (residency/temporary visa only perhaps, so players like DeMuslim, Polt, StarDust and Pro7ect could still compete in NA and EU).
Good job Europe! Pretty disappointed about NA but I mean we should all be used to it by this point. I wish they'd do a region lock (hard lock) and just proportion the seeds/points from being 5/5/6 to 10/4/2 (kr/eu/na). Would probably fix a lot of problems in America without screwing up any other region and still giving a reason for Koreans to play in Korea.
On July 11 2013 04:41 mjuuy wrote: Isn't AlaStOr a maphacker? ...
That's a pretty big statement to make without any evidence, or a link to the evidence...
He's asking a question.
Any proof or just a random accusation?
He's asking a question.
Glad to see these players got through so much SC2 to go around with this new WCS thing. I wish ThorZaIN made it to the RO16, I feel like it's been forever he had a good showing at a tournament.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/wcsdarkbanner.jpg)
StarDust, 
Starbuck and 
Hack, 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/st8aQiH.jpg)
