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On July 05 2013 17:40 nimdil wrote:
The more I think about this month's Power Rank the more I disagree with it. At this moment I think 1 & 2 are ok but everything below is just wrong (either to hi or to low or shouldn't be there at all).
So you think Flash is too high? If he think Soulkey and Innovation are good where they are you must.
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On July 05 2013 18:28 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power. What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament.
Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan.
I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 05 2013 18:56 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 18:28 Elroi wrote:Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power. What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament. Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan. I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players.
If JangBi had gone to MLG and won it then yes he would rank higher than he is ranked right now. But he didn't go, and he didn't win. We can't make up rankings based on speculations like that. That isn't a Power Rank, that's a Whatever I Want Rank. We can only use the data that we have, which I mentioned also explains why it is justifiable for Proleague to skew results in favor of players participating in Proleague. Saying that "xx player could have won xx tournament" is a useless statement to make because they didn't participate, and they didn't win $10,000. This rank is partially based on facts and data, not hypothetical scenarios.
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That MLG is "far more influential to the scene" and that it has some price money are very problematic arguments though. Idra and Stephano in a bo5 for 100 k would bring more money and it would maybe have a bigger "impact on the scene", but is that what we are measuring in the power rank?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 05 2013 21:17 Elroi wrote:
That MLG is "far more influential to the scene" and that it has some price money are very problematic arguments though. Idra and Stephano in a bo5 for 100 k would bring more money and it would maybe have a bigger "impact on the scene", but is that what we are measuring in the power rank?
An exaggeration does not prove your point effectively. A 'showmatch' between two players, likely online, with a small crowd and not a lot of interested parties will never be as influential as one of the largest LANs in the world, and the largest in North America. MLG is not a difficult tournament compared to WCS Korea, obviously, but it's still an important, widely viewed, and incredibly popular event. A Power Rank encompasses more than just skill and I think this is the point that most people cannot accept. If we go only by "who beat who" then we should just use ELO or Aligulac or overall record for the month and be done with it. A strict and mathematical methodology, however, is very boring and not open to much discussion if the parameters for ranking are as rigid as that. What's the point of writing such an article or making such a ranking? Not much.
Again, Polt and Taeja being in the Top 10 does not mean they are among the Top 10 players in terms of skill. It just means that in the month of June, they accomplished more (earning $10,000 at very popular premier events) than a lot of other players. They won important and widely viewed events. A lot of people have their names in mind because of their success. But because they won easier events, they are only 9th and 10th place on the rankings, which I think is fair. As I have mentioned multiple times in this thread, a Power Rank rates and weighs players based on Results (in tournaments, in prize money, in overall record), Quality of Play (skill), and Difficulty of Opponents. Polt and Taeja had some of the best Results in terms of winnings, but only decent difficulty of opponents and quality of play. That's why they rank worse than Rain, who had a middling June but a high difficulty of opponents and relatively high quality of play.
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Flash and Fantasy are one spot too high
other than that, it's WAY more reasonable than the last PR
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I think this power rank is pretty accurate for the most part. Fantasy showed some impressive play in the Ro32 and he beat Flash in Proleague. The loss against First doesn't count for this month. Jangbi might be a little high. The only exclusion I was surprised at was Parting. My own rankings just for fun:
1. Innovation
2. Soulkey
3. sOs
4. Flash
5. Rain
6. MVP
7. Parting
8. Fantasy
9. Polt
10. Jangbi
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On July 05 2013 18:56 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 18:28 Elroi wrote:Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power. What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament. Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan. I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players.
Jangbi was 2-0ed by an out of form MKP in code A, and only got to code S through an easy up and down group. Then he bombed out of code S in Ro32. His individual league is quite mediocre at this point. I think he would just lose to Polt 0-2 if they met in MLG.
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On July 05 2013 20:46 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 18:56 HolyArrow wrote:On July 05 2013 18:28 Elroi wrote:Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power. What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament. Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan. I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players. If JangBi had gone to MLG and won it then yes he would rank higher than he is ranked right now. But he didn't go, and he didn't win. We can't make up rankings based on speculations like that. That isn't a Power Rank, that's a Whatever I Want Rank. We can only use the data that we have, which I mentioned also explains why it is justifiable for Proleague to skew results in favor of players participating in Proleague. Saying that "xx player could have won xx tournament" is a useless statement to make because they didn't participate, and they didn't win $10,000. This rank is partially based on facts and data, not hypothetical scenarios.
I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or if we have a misunderstanding somewhere xD Because you're quoting my post but it sounds like we both share the same opinion.
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I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup.
I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now.
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On July 04 2013 05:25 rift wrote:
Jaedong in June: Record: 31 wins - 11 losses (73.81%)
not even a mention? and I know they were mostly vs foreigners
I also noticed TLPD is missing Life's losses to TLO.
As a completely unbiased Jaedong fanboy, I have to say:
I am dissappoint, son. (with this power rank.)
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On July 06 2013 04:25 Dwayn wrote:
I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup.
I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now.
You do know that Polt won against one of the players that won the qualifiers right?
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Innovation and Soulkey top2 is clear. Place 3 to 20 is not clear.
In my opinion, it is too early to make power ranking, lets begin in 6months.
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On July 06 2013 05:31 Dingodile wrote:
Innovation and Soulkey top2 is clear. Place 3 to 20 is not clear.
In my opinion, it is too early to make power ranking, lets begin in 6months.
Make power rank take results from last 3 months into account. This way we still have a power rank every month, can focus on more notable achievements.
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On July 06 2013 05:16 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 04:25 Dwayn wrote:
I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup.
I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now. You do know that Polt won against one of the players that won the qualifiers right?
And? One of the qualifiers beat rain, so he obviously must be above him in the power rankings right? Nope, it doesn't work like that.
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Where is Bisu, you heathens.
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On July 06 2013 06:48 Dwayn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 05:16 Assirra wrote:On July 06 2013 04:25 Dwayn wrote:
I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup.
I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now. You do know that Polt won against one of the players that won the qualifiers right? And? One of the qualifiers beat rain, so he obviously must be above him in the power rankings right? Nope, it doesn't work like that.
So if hypothetically Kespa players always lose when they go to foreign tournaments (hypothetically) . Each loses just two matches because every player except the winner loses exactly two matches in double-elim, hence small sample size. But as long as Kespa players play enough matches against each other, they should still occupy all the spots in PR, right? If somebody now points out that Kespa players always lose in foreign tournaments, you say "but this month each of them only loses two matches, small sample size".
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haha love the description of the flash vs fanta game
didn't expect there to be so may kespa players filling up the power rank this quickly
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On July 05 2013 21:28 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2013 21:17 Elroi wrote:
That MLG is "far more influential to the scene" and that it has some price money are very problematic arguments though. Idra and Stephano in a bo5 for 100 k would bring more money and it would maybe have a bigger "impact on the scene", but is that what we are measuring in the power rank? An exaggeration does not prove your point effectively. A 'showmatch' between two players, likely online, with a small crowd and not a lot of interested parties will never be as influential as one of the largest LANs in the world, and the largest in North America. MLG is not a difficult tournament compared to WCS Korea, obviously, but it's still an important, widely viewed, and incredibly popular event. A Power Rank encompasses more than just skill and I think this is the point that most people cannot accept. If we go only by "who beat who" then we should just use ELO or Aligulac or overall record for the month and be done with it. A strict and mathematical methodology, however, is very boring and not open to much discussion if the parameters for ranking are as rigid as that. What's the point of writing such an article or making such a ranking? Not much. Again, Polt and Taeja being in the Top 10 does not mean they are among the Top 10 players in terms of skill. It just means that in the month of June, they accomplished more (earning $10,000 at very popular premier events) than a lot of other players. They won important and widely viewed events. A lot of people have their names in mind because of their success. But because they won easier events, they are only 9th and 10th place on the rankings, which I think is fair. As I have mentioned multiple times in this thread, a Power Rank rates and weighs players based on Results (in tournaments, in prize money, in overall record), Quality of Play (skill), and Difficulty of Opponents. Polt and Taeja had some of the best Results in terms of winnings, but only decent difficulty of opponents and quality of play. That's why they rank worse than Rain, who had a middling June but a high difficulty of opponents and relatively high quality of play.
That's a good point and I'm not disagreeing with you on this. Winning a weekend tournament shows some important things: that you can perform under pressure, that you're clutch and that you can rely on you're standard play without much preparation for a specific opponent. I thought this ranking was accurate, I was only arguing against people who thought that Polt and Taja should be higher than Jangbi who only won a couple of games in PL...
But I still think that winning money and "impact on the scene" are suspect criteria since so many people follow players that are much worse than the best koreans and since the best koreans participate in very few week end tournaments.
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EPT
