One month has passed, and it's time to bring you the next monthly edition of the TeamLiquid Power Rank. In June's Power Rank, the later rounds of Code S factored in heavily. For this month's power rank, a lot more tournaments had to be considered, from the WCS Season 1 Finals to last week's MLG Anaheim.
Before we continue, here is an overly simplified version of our criteria.
Results: Obviously, this will be the basis of any power rank. And since this is a monthly power rank, we'll be mainly focusing on results from the last month, that is the month of June. Previous HotS results will also be taken into account as well, but with less weight.
Difficulty of opponents: Let's put it this way: if the PR existed last year, we probably wouldn't have given PartinG the #1 spot for his BWC run.
Quality of play: How impressed were we with this player's performance, especially over the last month?
Special Mentions
ST_Life: Let's take a second to take a look at how far Life has fallen. After HotS was released and Life won MLG Winter, he was considered one of the best, if not THE best player in the world. But in just the month of June, Life has:
Dropped series to both SjoW and TLO at DreamHack Summer, losing a supposed "sure win" tournament (or at least a 50% win tournament).
Went 0 - 1 in GSTL, losing as Startale's starter against Ryung.
Dropped out of his OSL group 0 - 2
Life has certainly lost both his luster and his aura of invincibility, and the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
prOp.SjoW: Props for giving us the biggest upset in SC2 since qxc over IM, Goody over Nestea, Thorzain over MC, or Adelscott over Mvp. I see a pretty good game resulted from this as well.
mYi.StarDust: Gained thousands of viewers and fans alike on the backs of his PvZ, his personality, and his English. Because of him, we now know who MYinsanity are, though we still know him better from LighT. We loved his interesting new take on PvZ, but he'll have to show more results in a larger variety of matchups to make the top ten.
Samsung_RorO: RorO's month wasn't absolutely terrible by most standards. He took out Parting in Proleague and even took games off of both Innovation and Soulkey. But with loses to both Pigbaby and aLive and a quick exit out of the OSL, RorO just barely drops out of the top ten.
ST_PartinG: Parting started off the month by losing to Jaedong's JvP. Then he got schooled by sOs in a lesson on modern PvP. He made much of it up, however, in his OSL group when he played brilliantly in his PvPs (thanks for the lesson, sOs) and even decently in the PvT that he lost. Unfortunately, he ended up with a 6 - 4 record and it just barely wasn't enough to make up for his poor showings earlier in the month.
Azubu.Symbol: Last month, we gave Symbol a fifth place spot but presented him with two challenges: First, to become slightly more clutch for his team in the GSTL, and second, to test his strength against more difficult opponents than he had in May. Symbol accomplished the first task, finally performing as the ace player for his team by beating sC and Hurricane. But when it came to challenging and beating better players, Symbol fell short as he lost 0 - 2 in the WCS finals both to HerO and sOs. In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.
TaeJa starts off the power rank, coming in with a top four finish at DreamHack Summer and winning a championship at HomeStory Cup 7. Now before we drone on about TaeJa, we should bring up the subject of international tournaments versus Korean results.
This is an inevitable problem that comes with dealing with such a fragmented scene. While we were compiling the list, we ran into some issues filling the last two spots and played around with various combinations of Polt/TaeJa/Symbol/Parting. The core issue came down to the how we weighed big international tournament finishes against above average results in Korean tournaments. Were the runs made by Polt and TaeJa more impressive than the ones by Symbol and Parting this month? At what point does slaughtering foreigners cease to matter? Each month, we'll aim the tackle these questions—and I'm sure it's going to be our #1 source of controversy—but for the the month of June, we felt that the Korean offerings were lacking. With PartinG and Symbol holding just barely 50% win rates with inconsistent displays of skill, they could not trump the runs made by the winners of HSC and MLG.
Back to TaeJa. During his brief backpack through Europe, TaeJa defeated Seed and Gumiho with convincing scores as well as some of Europe's current best in Stephano, TLO, Snute, and then countless other Europeans on top of that. That being said, he holds quite a tenuous position at this tenth slot as he dropped a lot of maps as well, even losing to elfi when he over-manner muled. When you look at TaeJa's games, they seem wild, unhinged, and even sloppy in a way. But to be fair, TaeJa had always looked this way, even in his prime. Though in recent times, he's beginning to look a bit more like a kid coloring outside the lines rather than the raging wildfire of his glory days.
Polt made us believe this month, believe that it was possible to succeed without KeSPA or even eSF training conditions. He took out the likes of Suppy, Naniwa, Dear, and Hyun in dominating fashion, showing great flair and refreshing strategies along the way. But perhaps most importantly, he showed us that a-moving hellbats can achieve similar winning effects as dropping them.
Polt's biggest advantage over TaeJa is the convincing nature of his play. During his MLG run, he did not drop a single series and he always seemed to completely overwhelm his opponents, consistently confounding them with his unexpected, innovative builds. Even though TaeJa played well in two tournaments compared to Polt's one, Polt was just the more impressive player.
Finishing off the triumvirate of the 'foreigner' Terrans is Mvp. Though MVP didn't win a tournament like Polt or TaeJa, he had the most difficult month and delivered the most impressive results. After qualifying for the WCS finals, Jürgen took his mantle as European champion seriously as he took down Ryung(AM), ForGG(EU), and Kangho(KR), though he lost to Alicia(AM) along the way. But perhaps most impressive was Mvp's demonstration of his TvT and hellbat prowess against Innovation, a player that is now the nearly undisputed best in the world. MVP put up an excellent fight, coming close to eliminating the stoic Terran, and teaching him a few things along the way.
Afterwards, Mvp returned to his European Kingdom (or at least WCS EU) and won a game when he was down to 5 workers against his opponent's 43. It was certainly more of a display of his opponent's blunders than Mvp's skill, but it was amusing nonetheless.
Note that these rankings were written before any Ro16 OSL games. Last month, Fantasy skipped towards 7-3 record, floating tens of thousands of resources along the way. Not that it had ever been his strength in BW, but SC II's better observing mechanics make it painfully obvious that Fantasy does not win his games through sheer mechanics and macro. You could see it as he floated 3500 minerals against Jaedong at 19 minutes or as he floated 1400 minerals twice against Life at both 16 minutes and 18 minutes. Fantasy's production tab would often be empty sometimes for literally a minute at a time while he's off doing god knows what, and yet he would go on to win both these games. It's an ability that makes us all question what we're doing wrong in our games and why we're not playing at the top of the top.
Now I know what some of your are thinking. Is Fantasy just getting bonus points for being Fantasy? Before you draw a conclusion consider this: This month, Fantasy advanced in first place out of arguably the hardest Ro32 group in the OSL. And out of all the Ro16 participants not named Innovation or Soulkey, Fantasy had the best record in June. Finally, if you can forgive the obvious macro mistakes, Fantasy showed fantastic play throughout the month in most of his games as well, especially against Flash.
I've leave you with a lesson that Fantasy taught us this month: Mines > BCs
With RorO's recent slight slump and Stork's recent extreme slump, Jangbi is the sole reason Samsung KHAN is still in slight contention for the Proleague playoffs. In round 5, he finished with an 8-5 record, and in round 6, he currently holds a 6-2 record including three ace matches (two of which he's won). With these ace match wins, Jangbi, has officially taken over RorO's position as Samsung KHAN's ace, a position that looked awkward on RorO anyway for BW fans.
In total, Jangbi is 10 - 4 this month, including wins against both Flash and Rain. He also played immaculately in his first game of his OSL group stage against Kangho, a fact that made it even more painful when he failed to advance from said group. Nevertheless, Jangbi gets this #6 spot for the sheer quantity of his wins over the past two months, the quality of the opponents he's beaten, and the consistent quality of his play.
sOs certainly had an up-and-down month in June. Here's a quick recap:
Won his first WCS Season Finals match against Symbol 2 - 0
Surprisingly lost to European player ForGG and his excessive use of hellbats.
Easily won against both HerO and Alicia in PvPs, then took revenge against his teammate Soulkey for 4-3'ing him in the GSL semifinals by 3-2'ing him in return in the WCS semifinals.
Started off the finals against Innovation with a 0- 3 score.
Showed off a innovative tempest strategy against Innovation, taking the best player in the world to the brink of defeat.
Lost that game.
Recorded a respectable 4-1 Proleague record.
Failed to advance from OSL Ro32.
Defeated Flash to win the Asian Indoor Martial arts tournament, whatever the hell that is.
From last month's series of results we've learned two things about sOs: First, that he is actually a very good player, one that can make it to the finals of tournaments and slug it out with the best of them. But more importantly, we reaffirmed our initial assessment that he's still prone to fatal execution errors, especially during high pressure situations. It happened in his first semifinals against Soulkey, when he played like a headless chicken and it happened against in the finals against Innovation, when he made many unforced errors such as doubling up on tech structures, accidentally killing off his own units, and other miscellaneous misclicks. The term "nervous wreck" is thrown around all too often in StarCraft II, but sOs may be the first player since ByunPrime to truly warrant this description.
For Rain, round 6 of Proleague has been his worst yet as he found himself finishing the month off with a 2 - 5 record. But when you take a look at his loses in depth, you get to see a more clear picture. Three of these games were in PvPs, a matchup notorious for its volatility. And though we can blame the nature of PvP for most of these loses, one in particular stands out. Against Oz, Rain found himself in a considerable lead during a phoenix mirror and, and in a rare blunder and show of overconfidence, went to push his opponent instead of either solidifying his advantage with an expansion or scouting and denying his opponent's expansion. Rain went on to lose this game after failing to break his opponent.
The other two loses in Proleague were against well executed snipes, specifically designed for abusing Rain's predictable style. The first of the two was to Solar, who took advantage of the fact that Rain always used the same build against lesser Zergs, and therefore executed a brilliant bust that involved three overseers, which were used to completely halt Rain's colossi production by gooping up his robotics. The second loss was a build order loss to Soulkey, who took advantage of Rain's propensity for blind nexus first.
Though the aforementioned losses are partially forgivable, Rain was headed toward a drop in the rankings until the end of the month. Then, during his OSL group, he reminded everyone of his brilliance. In this group, Rain displayed immaculate control, defense, and execution of safe and conservative play to demolish Bomber and Keen. Though his opponents did their best to abuse Rain's predictable style, Rain had an answer to their every move and countered with harassment that they were powerless to stop.
Win or lose, the common themes in found in Rain's games include safety and confidence in his own play. While this confidence sometimes gets him into trouble, it is usually well placed. The problems come when Rain begins to become too predictable and players begin blind countering his play, as they have this very month. Against both Keen and Bomber in the OSL, he was able to outplay his opponents regardless, but we've already seen cracks in his armor in his games against Solar and Soulkey. As Rain gets deeper into the OSL, he won't be able to rely anymore on completely outplaying his opponents; rather, he'll have to learn to change it up or go home.
Overall, June was a mediocre month for Flash and he finished it off with a 5 - 3 record. He started off by killing off fan favorites Major and HerO in Proleague and then rather effortlessly, even casually, breezed through his OSL group. But it was his bewildering defeats where all the interesting things about Flash occurred last month.
First were the games against Jangbi and Dear, both of whom used oracles to throw the game into chaos. Flash did his best to try to claw his way back into the games, and although he looked close to recovery each time, both games were lost.
But perhaps most interesting of all was Flash's battlecruiser build and resulting loss against Fantasy. Flash had devised a complex, almost convoluted anti-hellbat build designed specifically for Fantasy that involved defensive bunkers, turrets, and tanks into fake bio into a real, totally-not-a-gimmick three-base battlecruiser rush. I'm sure Flash was sporting a half smirk when the build completely caught Fantasy off-guard without any air defenses. Nevertheless, Fantasy pulled out the unexpected trick of using widow mines like scourge from Brood War and was victorious in one of the best games of the month.
When Flash wins, it's expected, effortless, and almost calming in a way. When he loses, it's explosive, jarring, and eventful. Whatever the case, Flash always puts up a fight and in this way, he begins to seem like his old BW self day by day.
I don't expect this second place placement to be controversial at all and yet I had the hardest time writing this particular section. After pondering on it for a while, I realized it was because Soulkey is just so obviously and quite unquestionably the second best player in the world right now (at least in terms of results).
As the reigning WCS KR champion, Soulkey has little place to go until someone either usurps him or he begins to completely flounder. He did neither this month. In fact, Soulkey solidified his place as top Zerg by convincingly and soundly defeating his Zerg KeSPa rival, RorO, in the WCS finals. He eventually lost against sOs, depriving us of a WCS KR rematch, but it was a close series and Soulkey didn't look too bad when losing.
Of course, Soulkey also played in Proleague this month, ending off with a 3 - 2 record with losses to Cure(hellbats) and HerO(cannon rush); we can't really blame him too much for either loss. And though he gave us quite a scare by losing his first game to Yugioh, he eventually made it out of his OSL group as well. So there you have it, a description of the second best player in the world.
Last month, there was quite a debate over whether GSL runner-up Innovation or GSL champion Soulkey deserved the #1 spot. This month, with Innovation's convincing win at the WCS Season Finals, few will deny that he's at the top. And since according to a recent interview, Innovation stated that his main goal in SC II is to always be at the top, the prestigious title of #1 in the official TeamLiquid Power Rank of July, 2013 should satisfy him for now.
I must say this power rank is A LOT better than the first one. Good job, althought I wish sOs was rank 4 instead of Rain. Especially since he also won against Flash in the Asian Indoor Games finals.
On July 04 2013 05:03 Nerchio wrote: I was scrolling down the list to see my nickname on the 1st place only to see my nickname mistaken? How can you spell "Nerchio" as INnoVation
Monk got blinded by the light of one thousand hellbats and seemed to have mistyped, sorry
tbh, I don't think its fair to mix in players like Polt (maybe also Taeja) into a rank where he doesn't even play in Korea in PL or in GSTL. Winning against mostly foreign players doesn't exactly prove top10 position
On July 04 2013 05:07 ThePhan2m wrote: tbh, I don't think its fair to mix in players like Polt (maybe also Taeja) into a rank where he doesn't even play in Korea in PL or in GSTL. Winning against mostly foreign players doesn't exactly prove top10 position
Polt stomped the Kespa guys who won the Kespa qualifer to go to MLG for what it's worth.
Fantasy shouldn't be in it at all, his play is very rough and didn't play that well in OSL at all I feel (got through with ugly wins and just got slightly demolished by First). Parting should definately be top 10, just very solid play from him lately. I'd put Rain a bit lower as well, quite disapointing in PL and his OSL group was just terribly weak, sOs is the better protoss now really. I feel First and Supernova will be on this list next month, they looked quite good in their OSL.
On July 04 2013 05:03 Nerchio wrote: I was scrolling down the list to see my nickname on the 1st place only to see my nickname mistaken? How can you spell "Nerchio" as INnoVation
Haha. Your number 1 in all our hearts . <3. but in all seriousness i think Hyun or HerO should have made the list they both had great runs at mlg beating some top guys
"and the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind."
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays. No I'm not trolling or joking.
His power rank in LoL should be better than last month I guess.
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays.
Is this true?
And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays. No I'm not trolling or joking.
If this is true i will sit in my room crying for the next 3 days
My opinions obviously differ from Team Liquid's Power Rank, but I would like to give some clearly stated reasons to avoid turning this into the angry ranting of a fanboy.
Mvp should be ranked higher.
First of all, let's look at number 7, FanTaSy. FanTaSy is a great player, no doubt, and he sported a pretty good record this month. However, there is a glaring problem - his macro. Floating 1,000+ minerals when it's not a super lategame scenario is a pretty poor display of skill and suggests that he might have lost against better opponents (after all, Life is slumping hard). If you look at #10 (TaeJa) and #9 (Polt), the Power Rank clearly states that Polt is ahead of TaeJa due to the quality of play - TaeJa plays sloppily, while Polt demolishes his opponents. Now compare Mvp and FanTaSy and you will see that Mvp has superior macro and his playstyle is much less sloppy than FanTaSy.
Now, I admit that wouldn't exactly be enough to consider Mvp to be better than FanTaSy. What really puts him over the edge is FanTaSy's 0-2 loss to First. FanTaSy got outplayed hard in those games. First displayed beautiful PvT and in the process, FanTaSy looked mediocre or even bad - whether that is due to First's skill or FanTaSy's mistakes, I cannot tell. Given the way FanTaSy got outplayed hard by First (who is not even close to Top 10) and his obvious macro flaws, I ask you this: could FanTaSy have gone 2-3 against INnoVation in a close series?
It is harder to argue against JangBi, and I do think JangBi deserves a nice placement. However, I do not believe sOs merits such a high ranking. He got shut out by INnoVation (Mvp's 2-3 trumps sOs's 0-4), and beating his teammate isn't very significant because of how wonky the sOs vs. Soulkey series is - teamkills tend to do that. The Asian Indoors Martial Arts tournament had laughably easy competition (only other contender was the only other Korean, Flash).
Personally, I would rank the players like so:
10. TaeJa 9. Polt 8. FanTaSy 7. sOs 6. Mvp 5. JangBi 4. Flash 3. Rain 2. Soulkey 1. INnoVation
Anyway, both monk's Power Ranking and my own are merely opinions! Please don't be offended.
On July 04 2013 05:07 ThePhan2m wrote: tbh, I don't think its fair to mix in players like Polt (maybe also Taeja) into a rank where he doesn't even play in Korea in PL or in GSTL. Winning against mostly foreign players doesn't exactly prove top10 position
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays.
Is this true?
And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
Yes it's true, we at here originally planned to invite Life for a HotS China announcement event(which was unfortunately canceled) so there are certain connections to the team. Also he forfeited his Asian Indoor & Martial Arts Games Korean representative seed in favor of MLG Spring, where was him last weekend?
It's weird. #2-#7 all seem like they're ranked too high - they don't seem to have been as successful in the last month as you'd expect for the 2nd (or whatever) best player in the world. On the other hand, I have no candidates for people I think have done any better... I think the problem is just that Koreans don't play enough games.
Hmmmmmmm. Last month I agreed with pretty much everything, not too sure this time!
Five losses are not enough for me to think that low of Life. I feel like that choice all came down to the loss to Sjow (who played the series of his life). The other three losses don't look nearly as bad without that loss there. I could be wrong and he might be getting into a big slump, but those games were not enough. That said, I'm not sure where I would put him.
Fantasy over Mvp feels off. Maybe this was written before First crushed him, but I'd feel the same way regardless.
I also don't think sOs is way too high. His PvT looked cool at first, but I just don't think he is solid enough at the matchup at all. Even looking past Innovation's 4-0, he's still 1-4 in PvT the past month. I'd put sOs below Jangbi for sure, and probably Fantasy and Mvp as well. Shit, he would maaaaaybe be the player I'd bump off for Life. Really hard to say though since I also think it is hard to place Taeja and Polt.
Alright let me try to put my jumbled thoughts together.
1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. Flash 4. Rain 5. Jangbi 6. Mvp 7. Fantasy 8. sOs 9. Life 10. Taeja/Polt/Symbol/Parting, goddamn they feel close
Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
so Flash is number 3 for uh... a decent proleague record (5-3) and losses to Taiwanese player Fly and sOs in the "secret" asian indoor martial arts tournament?
or is he number 3 because he is Flash? he's certainly a good player, but top 3 in the world for close to no results seems a 'little' bit off.
On July 04 2013 05:27 Entirety wrote: My opinions obviously differ from Team Liquid's Power Rank, but I would like to give some clearly stated reasons to avoid turning this into the angry ranting of a fanboy.
Mvp should be ranked higher.
First of all, let's look at number 7, FanTaSy. FanTaSy is a great player, no doubt, and he sported a pretty good record this month. However, there is a glaring problem - his macro. Floating 1,000+ minerals when it's not a super lategame scenario is a pretty poor display of skill and suggests that he might have lost against better opponents (after all, Life is slumping hard). If you look at #10 (TaeJa) and #9 (Polt), the Power Rank clearly states that Polt is ahead of TaeJa due to the quality of play - TaeJa plays sloppily, while Polt demolishes his opponents. Now compare Mvp and FanTaSy and you will see that Mvp has superior macro and his playstyle is much less sloppy than FanTaSy.
Now, I admit that wouldn't exactly be enough to consider Mvp to be better than FanTaSy. What really puts him over the edge is FanTaSy's 0-2 loss to First. FanTaSy got outplayed hard in those games. First displayed beautiful PvT and in the process, FanTaSy looked mediocre or even bad - whether that is due to First's skill or FanTaSy's mistakes, I cannot tell. Given the way FanTaSy got outplayed hard by First (who is not even close to Top 10) and his obvious macro flaws, I ask you this: could FanTaSy have gone 2-3 against INnoVation in a close series?
It is harder to argue against JangBi, and I do think JangBi deserves a nice placement. However, I do not believe sOs merits such a high ranking. He got shut out by INnoVation (Mvp's 2-3 trumps sOs's 0-4), and beating his teammate isn't very significant because of how wonky the sOs vs. Soulkey series is - teamkills tend to do that. The Asian Indoors Martial Arts tournament had laughably easy competition (only other contender was the only other Korean, Flash).
Personally, I would rank the players like so:
10. TaeJa 9. Polt 8. FanTaSy 7. sOs 6. Mvp 5. JangBi 4. Flash 3. Rain 2. Soulkey 1. INnoVation
Anyway, both monk's Power Ranking and my own are merely opinions! Please don't be offended.
It's kinda sad that Mvp's fan is trying to use his loss against Innovation to justify his skill (I admit that if a few things went differently that series, Mvp could of won that ), but still , a loss is a loss. Just wait for him to win.
i guess the thing with Life is that he only played bo1 and bo3 and everyone knows that Life is a Best of 5/7 player, but i can kinda understand why he is taken out by the top10
On July 04 2013 05:31 Schelim wrote: so Flash is number 3 for uh... a decent proleague record (5-3) and losses to Taiwanese player Fly and sOs in the "secret" asian indoor martial arts tournament?
or is he number 3 because he is Flash? he's certainly a good player, but top 3 in the world for close to no results seems a 'little' bit off.
I agree, and imo, same thing with Rain: 2 - 5 in PL. Yes he won his OSL group. But so did players like First (who beat RorO, Leenock and Fantasy) and SuperNova( who beat PartinG, YongHwa and KangHo), and these players dont even get a mention. And they were both as solid as Rain in these games
Naniwa hasn't done shit except a really solid finish at MLG - look at all his results before that. No way he is better than 'Phano, I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Jaedong is definitely a top 20 player (if the ranks went that high) - and Dear is great, but it feels like he is getting way too much cred. for a single good run at a tourney.
Edit: he did get second at DH Stockholm - my bad, too many tourneys. I still would have liked to see him place higher in WCS before I mention him at all...but I suppose two top 4 finishes is about equal to a top 2 finish in WCS Europe.
On another note - wouldn't it be fun to see a Teamliquid user tabulated power rank? Everyone lists their top 10 and we see who makes the most votes?
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays.
Is this true?
And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
Maybe league is more fun for him? He is his own person and can do what he wants you know.
On July 04 2013 05:27 Entirety wrote: My opinions obviously differ from Team Liquid's Power Rank, but I would like to give some clearly stated reasons to avoid turning this into the angry ranting of a fanboy.
Mvp should be ranked higher.
First of all, let's look at number 7, FanTaSy. FanTaSy is a great player, no doubt, and he sported a pretty good record this month. However, there is a glaring problem - his macro. Floating 1,000+ minerals when it's not a super lategame scenario is a pretty poor display of skill and suggests that he might have lost against better opponents (after all, Life is slumping hard). If you look at #10 (TaeJa) and #9 (Polt), the Power Rank clearly states that Polt is ahead of TaeJa due to the quality of play - TaeJa plays sloppily, while Polt demolishes his opponents. Now compare Mvp and FanTaSy and you will see that Mvp has superior macro and his playstyle is much less sloppy than FanTaSy.
Now, I admit that wouldn't exactly be enough to consider Mvp to be better than FanTaSy. What really puts him over the edge is FanTaSy's 0-2 loss to First. FanTaSy got outplayed hard in those games. First displayed beautiful PvT and in the process, FanTaSy looked mediocre or even bad - whether that is due to First's skill or FanTaSy's mistakes, I cannot tell. Given the way FanTaSy got outplayed hard by First (who is not even close to Top 10) and his obvious macro flaws, I ask you this: could FanTaSy have gone 2-3 against INnoVation in a close series?
It is harder to argue against JangBi, and I do think JangBi deserves a nice placement. However, I do not believe sOs merits such a high ranking. He got shut out by INnoVation (Mvp's 2-3 trumps sOs's 0-4), and beating his teammate isn't very significant because of how wonky the sOs vs. Soulkey series is - teamkills tend to do that. The Asian Indoors Martial Arts tournament had laughably easy competition (only other contender was the only other Korean, Flash).
Personally, I would rank the players like so:
10. TaeJa 9. Polt 8. FanTaSy 7. sOs 6. Mvp 5. JangBi 4. Flash 3. Rain 2. Soulkey 1. INnoVation
Anyway, both monk's Power Ranking and my own are merely opinions! Please don't be offended.
It's kinda sad that Mvp's fan is trying to use his loss against Innovation to justify his skill (I admit that if a few things went differently that series, Mvp could of won that ), but still , a loss is a loss. Just wait for him to win.
Man, everyone is saying that MVP should be higher than #8 not that he should be rank #1, and i don't think you need to beat the number 1 to be higher than #8.
On July 04 2013 05:35 hillman wrote: Naniwa hasn't done shit except a really solid finish at MLG - look at all his results before that. No way he is better than 'Phano, I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Jaedong is definitely a top 20 player (if the ranks went that high) - and Dear is great, but it feels like he is getting way too much cred. for a single good run at a tourney.
I'd put Rain a little lower. He would have 0 business on this list if it wasn't for his recent (bo1!!!) OSL results. Also... JangBi? Am I missing something?
On July 04 2013 05:27 Entirety wrote: My opinions obviously differ from Team Liquid's Power Rank, but I would like to give some clearly stated reasons to avoid turning this into the angry ranting of a fanboy.
Mvp should be ranked higher.
First of all, let's look at number 7, FanTaSy. FanTaSy is a great player, no doubt, and he sported a pretty good record this month. However, there is a glaring problem - his macro. Floating 1,000+ minerals when it's not a super lategame scenario is a pretty poor display of skill and suggests that he might have lost against better opponents (after all, Life is slumping hard). If you look at #10 (TaeJa) and #9 (Polt), the Power Rank clearly states that Polt is ahead of TaeJa due to the quality of play - TaeJa plays sloppily, while Polt demolishes his opponents. Now compare Mvp and FanTaSy and you will see that Mvp has superior macro and his playstyle is much less sloppy than FanTaSy.
Now, I admit that wouldn't exactly be enough to consider Mvp to be better than FanTaSy. What really puts him over the edge is FanTaSy's 0-2 loss to First. FanTaSy got outplayed hard in those games. First displayed beautiful PvT and in the process, FanTaSy looked mediocre or even bad - whether that is due to First's skill or FanTaSy's mistakes, I cannot tell. Given the way FanTaSy got outplayed hard by First (who is not even close to Top 10) and his obvious macro flaws, I ask you this: could FanTaSy have gone 2-3 against INnoVation in a close series?
It is harder to argue against JangBi, and I do think JangBi deserves a nice placement. However, I do not believe sOs merits such a high ranking. He got shut out by INnoVation (Mvp's 2-3 trumps sOs's 0-4), and beating his teammate isn't very significant because of how wonky the sOs vs. Soulkey series is - teamkills tend to do that. The Asian Indoors Martial Arts tournament had laughably easy competition (only other contender was the only other Korean, Flash).
Personally, I would rank the players like so:
10. TaeJa 9. Polt 8. FanTaSy 7. sOs 6. Mvp 5. JangBi 4. Flash 3. Rain 2. Soulkey 1. INnoVation
Anyway, both monk's Power Ranking and my own are merely opinions! Please don't be offended.
It's kinda sad that Mvp's fan is trying to use his loss against Innovation to justify his skill (I admit that if a few things went differently that series, Mvp could of won that ), but still , a loss is a loss. Just wait for him to win.
Man, everyone is saying that MVP should be higher than #8 not that he should be rank #1, and i don't think you need to beat the number 1 to be higher than #8.
I use his loss to justify higher placement because his loss is the highest display of skill he has shown.
Here's the thing - if Mvp loses 2-3 but looks equally good as the #1 ranked player in the world, isn't that pretty significant by itself even if it's a loss?
On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote: Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol
This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~
Glad Life's shield has finally cracked. I've been saying for the past 3 months he's not a top 10 player anymore. I'd also put Rain at #2, just for how amazing he has looked, but this power ranking seems to be soley result based, seeing as Taeja made the top 10 without beating a single KeSPA player. Also Seed needs honorable mention.
On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote: Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol
This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~
It should be obvious now that power rank is Proleague power rank with some consolation places for esf players. Not necessarily bad since PL is the only weekly thing. But the criteria should be clear : We put a lot of weights for matchs in PL in this power rank.
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
I know right.
Doesn't help that Jangbi and Fantasy both got WRECKED in the GSL and OSL.
On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote: Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol
This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~
It should be obvious now that power rank is Proleague power rank with some consolation places for esf players. Not necessarily bad since PL is the only weekly thing. But the criteria should be clear : We put a lot of weights for matchs in PL in this power rank.
Would it not be better to just have a group of say 20 pro gamers, or good casters like Artosis/idra/incontrol, that list their top 10 at the end of the month? I think that would be so much better.
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
I know right.
Doesn't help that Jangbi and Fantasy both got WRECKED in the GSL and OSL.
Don't forget that Fantasy's game vs First in OSL Ro16 is not counted towards this, since it didn't happen in June. And JangBi is basically solo carrying Samsung KHAN on his back. They both deserve their spots. (also, MVP would lose to both of them, but that's just my opinion and we won't know until/if they meet in the future).
I think this is spot on ranking, only thing I would change is Parting in, Taeja out. And I fully expect First to place in this power rank next month, if he continues with his performance...
..and the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
eSF supporters have probably by now given up any hope of any PR placement of their players, as the PR is mainly based on a league that is relevant only because of its importance for a game that is no longer played professionaly and vaguely resembles SC2, and no eSF team happens to take part in said league.
I think this format had merit in the days, when Proleague was the shit, because Proleague itself does not clearly lead to a order of players. But now that we have WCS World (and Proleague is a very niche thing), we kind of already have a natural player ranking - you can choose whether it is their order at the last WCS finals or their WCS points (I would take the former more seriously, as you can't tell apart EU and NA WCS points that are significantly cheaper).
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays.
Is this true?
And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
Maybe league is more fun for him? He is his own person and can do what he wants you know.
Of course, I just find it extremely strange that someone switches games exactly when he has introduced a new style to solidify him as the best in his (previous) game. Maybe Life got bored with being the best in SC2.
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays.
Is this true?
And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
Maybe league is more fun for him? He is his own person and can do what he wants you know.
Of course, I just find it extremely strange that someone switches games exactly when he has introduced a new style to solidify him as the best in his (previous) game. Maybe Life got bored with being the best in SC2.
..and the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
eSF supporters have probably by now given up any hope of any PR placement of their players, as the PR is mainly based on a league that is relevant only because of its importance for a game that is no longer played professionaly and vaguely resembles SC2, and no eSF team happens to take part in said league.
I think this format had merit in the days, when Proleague was the shit, because Proleague itself does not clearly lead to a order of players. But now that we have WCS World (and Proleague is a very niche thing), we kind of already have a natural player ranking - you can choose whether it is their order at the last WCS finals or their WCS points (I would take the former more seriously, as you can't tell apart EU and NA WCS points that are significantly cheaper).
Yeah kind of.
For players like Bogus, Soulkey, and Flash it's profoundly obvious that they deserve their spots.
However, players like Jangbi and Fantasy are a lot more debatable in their ranking. They're mainly inflated by PL which is a bit unfair as eSF has less opportunities to show their players outside of WCS. But, something is better than nothing, so they maintain their spots.
Personally, I think MVP is better than both of them, but he's mainly been munching on Europeans so I'm hard pressed to argue when it comes to results. The skill is there though, imo.
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
I feel like bomber should be in here He's so good but he almost never make it to the final dammit. Innovation rank #1... Because he's innovation lol nuff said
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays.
Is this true?
And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
Maybe league is more fun for him? He is his own person and can do what he wants you know.
Of course, I just find it extremely strange that someone switches games exactly when he has introduced a new style to solidify him as the best in his (previous) game. Maybe Life got bored with being the best in SC2.
don't forget he's 16 years old. the most logically sensible decision might not be the one he'll decide to go with.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
Better learn to count again, so far only 2 GSL's were won by KeSPA players. 3 if you want to count WCS finals.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
The last 2 GSL's have been won by Kespa players. I have no idea how you came up with 4. They're won the only 2 that occurred this year, but no others.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
Better learn to count again, so far only 2 GSL's were won by KeSPA players. 3 if you want to count WCS finals.
Ah yea. That's right, past 3. I got it mixed up with 4, which is the number of consecutive GSL's Life has been knocked out by KeSPA players.
use them both in my arguments, just got them mixed up
Mvp is always #1 in my heart. At least he was included this time, haha.
Only questionable thing to me is Rain, that proleague record can't be excused, feels like he should be punished instead of retaining his 4th place from last PR, but who the hell would take his spot? sOs is so questionable too, sigh.
sOs will have a list of up and downs every month due to his style. Due to him deploying random cheese almost exclusively he will always beat strong players as well as risk losing to weaker ones. I wish Rain would start making some deeper runs in solo tournaments, he's the Protoss people should be learning from.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
You should learn to count my friend, because here are the past 4 GSL winners: Soulkey (WCS 2013 season 1), Roro (GSL 2013 season 1), Sniper (GSL 2012 season 5), Life (GSL 2012 season 4).
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
After seeing Fantasy being dismantled by First, I wouldn't be so sure. And remember the top esf terrans aren't playing in KR so Kespa has somewhat of an advantage.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
After seeing Fantasy being dismantled by First, I wouldn't be so sure. And remember the top esf terrans aren't playing in KR so Kespa has somewhat of an advantage.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
After seeing Fantasy being dismantled by First, I wouldn't be so sure. And remember the top esf terrans aren't playing in KR so Kespa has somewhat of an advantage.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
After seeing Fantasy being dismantled by First, I wouldn't be so sure. And remember the top esf terrans aren't playing in KR so Kespa has somewhat of an advantage.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
The past 4, soon to be 5, GSL's have been won by KeSPA players. They are the better players. They play in a league against themselves. Of course those results will hold more weight.
After seeing Fantasy being dismantled by First, I wouldn't be so sure. And remember the top esf terrans aren't playing in KR so Kespa has somewhat of an advantage.
First aka Anyppi from KT? ;D
Are you gonna say Zergbong, Mvp and Iron count as kespa players too?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
You're so full of bullshit.
WCS Season 1 Finals:
Soulkey 2:0 Alive sOs 2:0 Symbol sOs 1:2 ForGG (former elephant) sOs 2:0 HerO InnoVation 2:0 Revival RorO 2:1 Revival sOs 3:0 Alicia Innovation 3:0 aLive Innovation 3:2 Mvp
KeSPA placing: 1st 2nd 3rd 5th (the rest being eSF/foreigner Koreans players from the WCS NA and EU)
WCS Season 2 Prelims (Qualifier Finals only)
Pigbaby 2:0 Sacsri (Both KeSPA) Dear 2:1 Pet Mekia 1-2 JYP (JYP not KeSPA but proleague player) Kop 2-0 DarkStar ZerO 2:1 Sorry (Both KeSPA) Balloon (teamless before this result) 2:1 Kassia Turn 2:1 JKS Argo 2:1 Action (Both KeSPA) SongDuri 2:1 Sora Terminator 2:0 Hydra (Both KeSPA) (KT)Puzzle 0:2 Billowy herO 2:1 BeSt (Both KeSPA) Skyhigh 2:0 Aria (Both KeSPA) free 0:2 Sleep Reality 2:0 Zest (Both KeSPA) s2 2:0 Shark (Both KeSPA)
Out of 23 open spots KeSPA players took 17 eSF players took 6 JYP took 1 CoCa took 1
WCS Season 2 Starleague Ro32 Group Stage:
Group A: Flash Soulkey advance over Yugioh Ragnarok Group B: (All KeSPA) Innovation Bbyong advance over Savage Flying Group C: soO Maru advance over sOs Effort Group D: Trap Symbol advance over Curious Shine Group E: Fantasy Kangho advance over Jangbi Life Group F: First hyvaa advance over Leenock RoRo Group G: SuperNova Parting advance over Squirtle Yonghwa Group H: Rain Bomber advance over Keen Hurricane
Head to Head: Kespa 13:12 eSF Out of 32 spots KeSPA took 22 spots, eSF took 9, Yugioh took 1 Out of 16 in the second group stage KeSPA took 11, eSF took 5 (not including results as they are July)
Out of 41 players in the WCS Korea Season 2 Challenger League (Code A): eSF players hold 19 spots KeSPA holds 20 spots JYP holds 1 spot CoCa holds 1 spot. (most of the ESF players come from the Up/Down Groups, most of the KeSPA players come from the qualifiers).
Fantasy or Jangbi are ok but didn't prove anything . Proleague is overated, kespa got stomp by players like Polt in MLG, a rank in one month is quite hard because not enough game are played;
Where is Lizzy? He's the furthest advancing Kespa player in the WCS AM qualifiers. He took out top players such as TOP who took out STX's Mini. Before you scoff at WCS AM, just look at some things:
1. JYP fled to WCS KR after failing to qualify for WCS AM premier or challenger divisions last season. He qualifies for WCS KR on the first try.
2. After HyuN qualifies in his bracket, WCS America will have 3 of the top 4 finishers at Homestory Cup VII including both finalists - TaeJa, Snute, and HyuN
3. After HyuN qualifies and now Sound changing his region to AM (qualifiers were too hard for a Red Bull LAN finalist like him. impressive shit), WCS AM will have 6 of the top 8 from the recent MLG including both finalists - Polt, HyuN, HerO, Sound, Jaedong, and Sage
4. Alicia dominated IMmvp at the WCS S1 season finals.
5. Both Red Bull Training Grounds finalists have changed their region to America - Sound and Golden
All in all, Lizzy's recent performance earns him at least a CBNC spot imo. Thanks.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
You're so full of bullshit.
WCS Season 1 Finals:
Soulkey 2:0 Alive sOs 2:0 Symbol sOs 1:2 ForGG (former elephant) sOs 2:0 HerO InnoVation 2:0 Revival RorO 2:1 Revival sOs 3:0 Alicia Innovation 3:0 aLive Innovation 3:2 Mvp
KeSPA placing: 1st 2nd 3rd 5th (the rest being eSF/foreigner Koreans players from the WCS NA and EU)
WCS Season 2 Prelims (Qualifier Finals only)
Pigbaby 2:0 Sacsri (Both KeSPA) Dear 2:1 Pet Mekia 1-2 JYP (JYP not KeSPA but proleague player) Kop 2-0 DarkStar ZerO 2:1 Sorry (Both KeSPA) Balloon (teamless before this result) 2:1 Kassia Turn 2:1 JKS Argo 2:1 Action (Both KeSPA) SongDuri 2:1 Sora Terminator 2:0 Hydra (Both KeSPA) (KT)Puzzle 0:2 Billowy herO 2:1 BeSt (Both KeSPA) Skyhigh 2:0 Aria (Both KeSPA) free 0:2 Sleep Reality 2:0 Zest (Both KeSPA) s2 2:0 Shark (Both KeSPA)
Out of 23 open spots KeSPA players took 17 eSF players took 6 JYP took 1 CoCa took 1
WCS Season 2 Starleague Ro32 Group Stage:
Group A: Flash Soulkey advance over Yugioh Ragnarok Group B: (All KeSPA) Innovation Bbyong advance over Savage Flying Group C: soO Maru advance over sOs Effort Group D: Trap Symbol advance over Curious Shine Group E: Fantasy Kangho advance over Jangbi Life Group F: First hyvaa advance over Leenock RoRo Group G: SuperNova Parting advance over Squirtle Yonghwa Group H: Rain Bomber advance over Keen Hurricane
Head to Head: Kespa 13:12 eSF Out of 32 spots KeSPA took 22 spots, eSF took 9, Yugioh took 1 Out of 16 in the second group stage KeSPA took 11, eSF took 5 (not including results as they are July)
Out of 41 players in the WCS Korea Season 2 Challenger League (Code A): eSF players hold 19 spots KeSPA holds 20 spots JYP holds 1 spot CoCa holds 1 spot. (most of the ESF players come from the Up/Down Groups, most of the KeSPA players come from the qualifiers).
On July 04 2013 07:12 Shellshock1122 wrote: Where is Lizzy? He's the furthest advancing Kespa player in the WCS AM qualifiers. He took out top players such as TOP who took out STX's Mini. Before you scoff at WCS AM, just look at some things:
1. JYP fled to WCS KR after failing to qualify for WCS AM premier or challenger divisions last season. He qualifies for WCS AM on the first try.
2. After HyuN qualifies in his bracket, WCS America will have 3 of the top 4 finishers at Homestory Cup VII including both finalists - TaeJa, Snute, and HyuN
3. After HyuN qualifies and now Sound changing his region to AM (qualifiers were too hard for a Red Bull LAN finalist like him. impressive shit), WCS AM will have 6 of the top 8 from the recent MLG including both finalists - Polt, HyuN, HerO, Sound, Jaedong, and Sage
4. Alicia dominated IMmvp at the WCS S1 season finals.
5. Both Red Bull Training Grounds finalists have changed their region to America - Sound and Golden
All in all, Lizzy's recent performance earns him at least a CBNC spot imo. Thanks.
I concur with this, how can you forget kespa original SC2 bonjwa, before your innovations, flashes, soses and soulkeys there was lizzy whom was superior to them all.
On July 04 2013 07:12 Shellshock1122 wrote: Where is Lizzy? He's the furthest advancing Kespa player in the WCS AM qualifiers. He took out top players such as TOP who took out STX's Mini. Before you scoff at WCS AM, just look at some things:
1. JYP fled to WCS KR after failing to qualify for WCS AM premier or challenger divisions last season. He qualifies for WCS AM on the first try.
2. After HyuN qualifies in his bracket, WCS America will have 3 of the top 4 finishers at Homestory Cup VII including both finalists - TaeJa, Snute, and HyuN
3. After HyuN qualifies and now Sound changing his region to AM (qualifiers were too hard for a Red Bull LAN finalist like him. impressive shit), WCS AM will have 6 of the top 8 from the recent MLG including both finalists - Polt, HyuN, HerO, Sound, Jaedong, and Sage
4. Alicia dominated IMmvp at the WCS S1 season finals.
5. Both Red Bull Training Grounds finalists have changed their region to America - Sound and Golden
All in all, Lizzy's recent performance earns him at least a CBNC spot imo. Thanks.
I concur with this, how can you forget kespa original SC2 bonjwa, before your innovations, flashes, soses and soulkeys there was lizzy whom was superior to them all.
Forget Lizzy, what about Bear? TL showing callous disregard for the true World Champion. Joke list!
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
Soulkey 2:0 Alive sOs 2:0 Symbol sOs 1:2 ForGG (former elephant) sOs 2:0 HerO InnoVation 2:0 Revival RorO 2:1 Revival sOs 3:0 Alicia Innovation 3:0 aLive Innovation 3:2 Mvp
KeSPA placing: 1st 2nd 3rd 5th (the rest being eSF/foreigner Koreans players from the WCS NA and EU)
WCS Season 2 Prelims (Qualifier Finals only)
Pigbaby 2:0 Sacsri (Both KeSPA) Dear 2:1 Pet Mekia 1-2 JYP (JYP not KeSPA but proleague player) Kop 2-0 DarkStar ZerO 2:1 Sorry (Both KeSPA) Balloon (teamless before this result) 2:1 Kassia Turn 2:1 JKS Argo 2:1 Action (Both KeSPA) SongDuri 2:1 Sora Terminator 2:0 Hydra (Both KeSPA) (KT)Puzzle 0:2 Billowy herO 2:1 BeSt (Both KeSPA) Skyhigh 2:0 Aria (Both KeSPA) free 0:2 Sleep Reality 2:0 Zest (Both KeSPA) s2 2:0 Shark (Both KeSPA)
Out of 23 open spots KeSPA players took 17 eSF players took 6 JYP took 1 CoCa took 1
WCS Season 2 Starleague Ro32 Group Stage:
Group A: Flash Soulkey advance over Yugioh Ragnarok Group B: (All KeSPA) Innovation Bbyong advance over Savage Flying Group C: soO Maru advance over sOs Effort Group D: Trap Symbol advance over Curious Shine Group E: Fantasy Kangho advance over Jangbi Life Group F: First hyvaa advance over Leenock RoRo Group G: SuperNova Parting advance over Squirtle Yonghwa Group H: Rain Bomber advance over Keen Hurricane
Head to Head: Kespa 13:12 eSF Out of 32 spots KeSPA took 22 spots, eSF took 9, Yugioh took 1 Out of 16 in the second group stage KeSPA took 11, eSF took 5 (not including results as they are July)
Out of 41 players in the WCS Korea Season 2 Challenger League (Code A): eSF players hold 19 spots KeSPA holds 20 spots JYP holds 1 spot CoCa holds 1 spot. (most of the ESF players come from the Up/Down Groups, most of the KeSPA players come from the qualifiers).
I wouldn't put much wait into Challenger League/Qualifiers at all. Most of those brackets were easy as hell, and mostly kespa as the majority of them can't play in any region but Korea.
Fantasy's production tab would often be empty sometimes for literally a minute at a time while he's off doing god knows what, and yet he would go on to win both these games. It's an ability that makes us all question what we're doing wrong in our games and why we're not playing at the top of the top.
Yea, because you totally have better macro than Fantasy I'm sure.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
You're so full of bullshit.
WCS Season 1 Finals:
Soulkey 2:0 Alive sOs 2:0 Symbol sOs 1:2 ForGG (former elephant) sOs 2:0 HerO InnoVation 2:0 Revival RorO 2:1 Revival sOs 3:0 Alicia Innovation 3:0 aLive Innovation 3:2 Mvp
KeSPA placing: 1st 2nd 3rd 5th (the rest being eSF/foreigner Koreans players from the WCS NA and EU)
WCS Season 2 Prelims (Qualifier Finals only)
Pigbaby 2:0 Sacsri (Both KeSPA) Dear 2:1 Pet Mekia 1-2 JYP (JYP not KeSPA but proleague player) Kop 2-0 DarkStar ZerO 2:1 Sorry (Both KeSPA) Balloon (teamless before this result) 2:1 Kassia Turn 2:1 JKS Argo 2:1 Action (Both KeSPA) SongDuri 2:1 Sora Terminator 2:0 Hydra (Both KeSPA) (KT)Puzzle 0:2 Billowy herO 2:1 BeSt (Both KeSPA) Skyhigh 2:0 Aria (Both KeSPA) free 0:2 Sleep Reality 2:0 Zest (Both KeSPA) s2 2:0 Shark (Both KeSPA)
Out of 23 open spots KeSPA players took 17 eSF players took 6 JYP took 1 CoCa took 1
WCS Season 2 Starleague Ro32 Group Stage:
Group A: Flash Soulkey advance over Yugioh Ragnarok Group B: (All KeSPA) Innovation Bbyong advance over Savage Flying Group C: soO Maru advance over sOs Effort Group D: Trap Symbol advance over Curious Shine Group E: Fantasy Kangho advance over Jangbi Life Group F: First hyvaa advance over Leenock RoRo Group G: SuperNova Parting advance over Squirtle Yonghwa Group H: Rain Bomber advance over Keen Hurricane
Head to Head: Kespa 13:12 eSF Out of 32 spots KeSPA took 22 spots, eSF took 9, Yugioh took 1 Out of 16 in the second group stage KeSPA took 11, eSF took 5 (not including results as they are July)
Out of 41 players in the WCS Korea Season 2 Challenger League (Code A): eSF players hold 19 spots KeSPA holds 20 spots JYP holds 1 spot CoCa holds 1 spot. (most of the ESF players come from the Up/Down Groups, most of the KeSPA players come from the qualifiers).
Lol, thanks for the hard work but this is hardly relevant as most of the players in your list have never been and will never be in consider for the PR. The fact remains that the top Kespa and top esf players are not that faraway in skill with Kespa doing better atm. Look at how Supernova beat Parting, Maru beat sOs, Bomber beat Byong, Fist beat Fantasy etc. Head to Head Kespa 13:12 esf as you listed, pretty close. What really happens when PL results are rewarded is that top Kespa players are rewarded for collecting wins against mediocre Kespa players ( they are mostly 50-50 head to head within themselves ) which is why it is laughable.
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
You're so full of bullshit.
WCS Season 1 Finals:
Soulkey 2:0 Alive sOs 2:0 Symbol sOs 1:2 ForGG (former elephant) sOs 2:0 HerO InnoVation 2:0 Revival RorO 2:1 Revival sOs 3:0 Alicia Innovation 3:0 aLive Innovation 3:2 Mvp
KeSPA placing: 1st 2nd 3rd 5th (the rest being eSF/foreigner Koreans players from the WCS NA and EU)
WCS Season 2 Prelims (Qualifier Finals only)
Pigbaby 2:0 Sacsri (Both KeSPA) Dear 2:1 Pet Mekia 1-2 JYP (JYP not KeSPA but proleague player) Kop 2-0 DarkStar ZerO 2:1 Sorry (Both KeSPA) Balloon (teamless before this result) 2:1 Kassia Turn 2:1 JKS Argo 2:1 Action (Both KeSPA) SongDuri 2:1 Sora Terminator 2:0 Hydra (Both KeSPA) (KT)Puzzle 0:2 Billowy herO 2:1 BeSt (Both KeSPA) Skyhigh 2:0 Aria (Both KeSPA) free 0:2 Sleep Reality 2:0 Zest (Both KeSPA) s2 2:0 Shark (Both KeSPA)
Out of 23 open spots KeSPA players took 17 eSF players took 6 JYP took 1 CoCa took 1
WCS Season 2 Starleague Ro32 Group Stage:
Group A: Flash Soulkey advance over Yugioh Ragnarok Group B: (All KeSPA) Innovation Bbyong advance over Savage Flying Group C: soO Maru advance over sOs Effort Group D: Trap Symbol advance over Curious Shine Group E: Fantasy Kangho advance over Jangbi Life Group F: First hyvaa advance over Leenock RoRo Group G: SuperNova Parting advance over Squirtle Yonghwa Group H: Rain Bomber advance over Keen Hurricane
Head to Head: Kespa 13:12 eSF Out of 32 spots KeSPA took 22 spots, eSF took 9, Yugioh took 1 Out of 16 in the second group stage KeSPA took 11, eSF took 5 (not including results as they are July)
Out of 41 players in the WCS Korea Season 2 Challenger League (Code A): eSF players hold 19 spots KeSPA holds 20 spots JYP holds 1 spot CoCa holds 1 spot. (most of the ESF players come from the Up/Down Groups, most of the KeSPA players come from the qualifiers).
jw where did you get 22 kespa in the Ro32 of OSL? Parting, sOs, Flying, Rain, Trap, JangBi, INnoVation, Bbyong, Flash, FanTaSy, Soulkey, RorO, hyvaa, soO, Shine, Savage, EffOrt is 17
esf was Squirtle, Hurricane, First, Yonghwa, Bomber, SuperNova, Maru, KeeN, Symbol, KangHo, Life, Ragnarok, Leenock, Curious which is 14
neither was Yugioh (1)
Ro16 was Kespa: Soulkey, soO, Parting, Flash, INnoVation, Bbyong, Rain, hyvaa, FanTaSy, and Trap (10) esf: Symbol, Bomber, First, Maru, SuperNova, Kangho (6) close to what you said but still different
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
You're so full of bullshit.
WCS Season 1 Finals:
Soulkey 2:0 Alive sOs 2:0 Symbol sOs 1:2 ForGG (former elephant) sOs 2:0 HerO InnoVation 2:0 Revival RorO 2:1 Revival sOs 3:0 Alicia Innovation 3:0 aLive Innovation 3:2 Mvp
KeSPA placing: 1st 2nd 3rd 5th (the rest being eSF/foreigner Koreans players from the WCS NA and EU)
WCS Season 2 Prelims (Qualifier Finals only)
Pigbaby 2:0 Sacsri (Both KeSPA) Dear 2:1 Pet Mekia 1-2 JYP (JYP not KeSPA but proleague player) Kop 2-0 DarkStar ZerO 2:1 Sorry (Both KeSPA) Balloon (teamless before this result) 2:1 Kassia Turn 2:1 JKS Argo 2:1 Action (Both KeSPA) SongDuri 2:1 Sora Terminator 2:0 Hydra (Both KeSPA) (KT)Puzzle 0:2 Billowy herO 2:1 BeSt (Both KeSPA) Skyhigh 2:0 Aria (Both KeSPA) free 0:2 Sleep Reality 2:0 Zest (Both KeSPA) s2 2:0 Shark (Both KeSPA)
Out of 23 open spots KeSPA players took 17 eSF players took 6 JYP took 1 CoCa took 1
WCS Season 2 Starleague Ro32 Group Stage:
Group A: Flash Soulkey advance over Yugioh Ragnarok Group B: (All KeSPA) Innovation Bbyong advance over Savage Flying Group C: soO Maru advance over sOs Effort Group D: Trap Symbol advance over Curious Shine Group E: Fantasy Kangho advance over Jangbi Life Group F: First hyvaa advance over Leenock RoRo Group G: SuperNova Parting advance over Squirtle Yonghwa Group H: Rain Bomber advance over Keen Hurricane
Head to Head: Kespa 13:12 eSF Out of 32 spots KeSPA took 22 spots, eSF took 9, Yugioh took 1 Out of 16 in the second group stage KeSPA took 11, eSF took 5 (not including results as they are July)
Out of 41 players in the WCS Korea Season 2 Challenger League (Code A): eSF players hold 19 spots KeSPA holds 20 spots JYP holds 1 spot CoCa holds 1 spot. (most of the ESF players come from the Up/Down Groups, most of the KeSPA players come from the qualifiers).
Nice info but what has that to do with my point? Proleague is getting counted heavily so the players not participating have a serious disadvantage in these rankings. I know it, you know it, everybody knows it. Then why make a statement like the eSF ever would have a chance to get rank 1 like its some kind of mockery? Its nearly impossible to reach high in the ranks without playing in proleague.
Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays. No I'm not trolling or joking.
I kinda get it, he probably dreams of surpassing Flash's e-sports status some day by not just being the best at StarCraft, but being the undisputed best at every game in existence at some point!
On July 04 2013 05:03 Nerchio wrote: I was scrolling down the list to see my nickname on the 1st place only to see my nickname mistaken? How can you spell "Nerchio" as INnoVation
On July 04 2013 07:41 PerSe wrote: Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
But that is not why only there are soo much in the top 10. Read the explenation and count how many times they say Proleague.You can play awesome and go toe to toe with the best of KeSPA (Mvp) but as long as some people get a decent run in proleague you won't get high in the ranks simply cause you can't participate in PL.
On July 04 2013 07:12 Shellshock1122 wrote: Where is Lizzy? He's the furthest advancing Kespa player in the WCS AM qualifiers. He took out top players such as TOP who took out STX's Mini. Before you scoff at WCS AM, just look at some things:
1. JYP fled to WCS KR after failing to qualify for WCS AM premier or challenger divisions last season. He qualifies for WCS KR on the first try.
2. After HyuN qualifies in his bracket, WCS America will have 3 of the top 4 finishers at Homestory Cup VII including both finalists - TaeJa, Snute, and HyuN
3. After HyuN qualifies and now Sound changing his region to AM (qualifiers were too hard for a Red Bull LAN finalist like him. impressive shit), WCS AM will have 6 of the top 8 from the recent MLG including both finalists - Polt, HyuN, HerO, Sound, Jaedong, and Sage
4. Alicia dominated IMmvp at the WCS S1 season finals.
5. Both Red Bull Training Grounds finalists have changed their region to America - Sound and Golden
All in all, Lizzy's recent performance earns him at least a CBNC spot imo. Thanks.
I withdraw this post after the Lizzy vs BBoongBBoong series
On July 04 2013 07:12 Shellshock1122 wrote: Where is Lizzy? He's the furthest advancing Kespa player in the WCS AM qualifiers. He took out top players such as TOP who took out STX's Mini. Before you scoff at WCS AM, just look at some things:
1. JYP fled to WCS KR after failing to qualify for WCS AM premier or challenger divisions last season. He qualifies for WCS KR on the first try.
2. After HyuN qualifies in his bracket, WCS America will have 3 of the top 4 finishers at Homestory Cup VII including both finalists - TaeJa, Snute, and HyuN
3. After HyuN qualifies and now Sound changing his region to AM (qualifiers were too hard for a Red Bull LAN finalist like him. impressive shit), WCS AM will have 6 of the top 8 from the recent MLG including both finalists - Polt, HyuN, HerO, Sound, Jaedong, and Sage
4. Alicia dominated IMmvp at the WCS S1 season finals.
5. Both Red Bull Training Grounds finalists have changed their region to America - Sound and Golden
All in all, Lizzy's recent performance earns him at least a CBNC spot imo. Thanks.
I withdraw this post after the Lizzy vs BBoongBBoong series
Can't just be hipster for the sake of being hipster.
On July 04 2013 07:41 PerSe wrote: Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
But that is not why only there are soo much in the top 10. Read the explenation and count how many times they say Proleague.You can play awesome and go toe to toe with the best of KeSPA (Mvp) but as long as some people get a decent run in proleague you won't get high in the ranks simply cause you can't participate in PL.
Yea. Taeja beating Snute was some impressive stuff.
On July 04 2013 06:25 Assirra wrote: Really Teamliquid?
the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
Be honest here, you can win the WCS but you won't get high in PR if you don't play in Proleague. I understand that Proleague is great for making lists like this, but please avoid statements that make yourself look silly. Till the point that eSF players get to play in PL there is no way they will get close.
You're so full of bullshit.
WCS Season 1 Finals:
Soulkey 2:0 Alive sOs 2:0 Symbol sOs 1:2 ForGG (former elephant) sOs 2:0 HerO InnoVation 2:0 Revival RorO 2:1 Revival sOs 3:0 Alicia Innovation 3:0 aLive Innovation 3:2 Mvp
KeSPA placing: 1st 2nd 3rd 5th (the rest being eSF/foreigner Koreans players from the WCS NA and EU)
WCS Season 2 Prelims (Qualifier Finals only)
Pigbaby 2:0 Sacsri (Both KeSPA) Dear 2:1 Pet Mekia 1-2 JYP (JYP not KeSPA but proleague player) Kop 2-0 DarkStar ZerO 2:1 Sorry (Both KeSPA) Balloon (teamless before this result) 2:1 Kassia Turn 2:1 JKS Argo 2:1 Action (Both KeSPA) SongDuri 2:1 Sora Terminator 2:0 Hydra (Both KeSPA) (KT)Puzzle 0:2 Billowy herO 2:1 BeSt (Both KeSPA) Skyhigh 2:0 Aria (Both KeSPA) free 0:2 Sleep Reality 2:0 Zest (Both KeSPA) s2 2:0 Shark (Both KeSPA)
Out of 23 open spots KeSPA players took 17 eSF players took 6 JYP took 1 CoCa took 1
WCS Season 2 Starleague Ro32 Group Stage:
Group A: Flash Soulkey advance over Yugioh Ragnarok Group B: (All KeSPA) Innovation Bbyong advance over Savage Flying Group C: soO Maru advance over sOs Effort Group D: Trap Symbol advance over Curious Shine Group E: Fantasy Kangho advance over Jangbi Life Group F: First hyvaa advance over Leenock RoRo Group G: SuperNova Parting advance over Squirtle Yonghwa Group H: Rain Bomber advance over Keen Hurricane
Head to Head: Kespa 13:12 eSF Out of 32 spots KeSPA took 22 spots, eSF took 9, Yugioh took 1 Out of 16 in the second group stage KeSPA took 11, eSF took 5 (not including results as they are July)
Out of 41 players in the WCS Korea Season 2 Challenger League (Code A): eSF players hold 19 spots KeSPA holds 20 spots JYP holds 1 spot CoCa holds 1 spot. (most of the ESF players come from the Up/Down Groups, most of the KeSPA players come from the qualifiers).
Lol, thanks for the hard work but this is hardly relevant as most of the players in your list have never been and will never be in consider for the PR. The fact remains that the top Kespa and top esf players are not that faraway in skill with Kespa doing better atm. Look at how Supernova beat Parting, Maru beat sOs, Bomber beat Byong, Fist beat Fantasy etc. Head to Head Kespa 13:12 esf as you listed, pretty close. What really happens when PL results are rewarded is that top Kespa players are rewarded for collecting wins against mediocre Kespa players ( they are mostly 50-50 head to head within themselves ) which is why it is laughable.
I think the average Kespa player is not much different from the average eSF, but when it comes to the top tier of each category, Kespa is clearly dominant. With guys like Innovation, Soulkey, sOs, Flash, Rain, etc. whereas you think of top eSF players and you have Mvp, Life, Symbol. In this regard, Kespa has the clear advantage.
On July 04 2013 07:41 PerSe wrote: Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
But that is not why only there are soo much in the top 10. Read the explenation and count how many times they say Proleague.You can play awesome and go toe to toe with the best of KeSPA (Mvp) but as long as some people get a decent run in proleague you won't get high in the ranks simply cause you can't participate in PL.
That's got nothing to do with Kespa-bias though. That's just because Proleague gives regular results (weekly matches). You can't fault the writers for using the numbers that they have, especially in a monthly based ranking system.
Really the problem is that GSTL doesn't have enough matches/ESF players don't get as much exposure, rather than with the methodology. It would be weirder NOT to use Proleague statistics.
It's hard to gauge how well ESF players are doing when they play so few games compared to KESPA players. Sure, you can look at a handful of series, but that really isn't all that telling imo.
Right when this PR came out, it was painfully obvious it was going to be PL biased, simply based on the number of games there are in PL.
Take it for what it is, and stop getting so worked up about it. lol
One strange omission was the lack of reference to the MLG Qualifiers for KESPA players. It included Soulkey (eliminated by LabyRinth in 1st round), Innovation (eliminated by Sacsri in 2nd round), Fantasy (eliminated by MyuNgSiK in 2nd round), Rain (eliminated by Flying in 3rd round), and JangBi (eliminated by Dear in 5th round final). Of the top 7, only Flash and SoS avoided it, the other five failed while Stats, soO, and Dear succeeded.
Overall, it helps affirm JangBi's place a little bit, but puts some doubts on the others. Dear, soO, and Stats all placed respectably in MLG, but all eventually got chewed up by the open bracket grind. They were comparable to ST_Sound, ROOT_Sage, or Col_TheStC... not exactly the top ESF (or former ESF) Koreans. Even with non-kespa PL regulars like HerO (13-11 in PL) and Jaedong (11-13 in PL) competing, PL members could not prevail over the likes of Polt and HyuN.
Too bad Polt is coming from almost nowhere recently, or else he would definitely deserve a higher place. HyuN is in the same boat with almost nowhere to play outside WCS. MVP still looked better in defeat against Innovation than anyone else did and hasn't really lost anything other than that one series. He could be as high as #3. Symbol, KangHo, ForGG, and Bomber can all make cases for inclusion based on WCS.
The #1 and #2 seem correct based on the WCS results, but the play for everyone else at the top is still way too close to really give an edge. So, it seems like the PR writers totally biased the PR towards the big name PL guys while a whole host of ESF or foreign team Koreans could just as easily slot in from #3 to #10.
On July 04 2013 07:41 PerSe wrote: Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
But that is not why only there are soo much in the top 10. Read the explenation and count how many times they say Proleague.You can play awesome and go toe to toe with the best of KeSPA (Mvp) but as long as some people get a decent run in proleague you won't get high in the ranks simply cause you can't participate in PL.
That's got nothing to do with Kespa-bias though. That's just because Proleague gives regular results (weekly matches). You can't fault the writers for using the numbers that they have, especially in a monthly based ranking system.
Really the problem is that GSTL doesn't have enough matches/ESF players don't get as much exposure, rather than with the methodology. It would be weirder NOT to use Proleague statistics.
Don't get me wrong here. I understand why but if even TL is going to claim in a mockery statement that eSF can't reach high rank in PR its get annoying. It's bad enough as it is with the whole eSF vs KeSPA shit, we don't need TL to inflame it even further.
On July 04 2013 07:41 PerSe wrote: Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
But that is not why only there are soo much in the top 10. Read the explenation and count how many times they say Proleague.You can play awesome and go toe to toe with the best of KeSPA (Mvp) but as long as some people get a decent run in proleague you won't get high in the ranks simply cause you can't participate in PL.
That's got nothing to do with Kespa-bias though. That's just because Proleague gives regular results (weekly matches). You can't fault the writers for using the numbers that they have, especially in a monthly based ranking system.
Really the problem is that GSTL doesn't have enough matches/ESF players don't get as much exposure, rather than with the methodology. It would be weirder NOT to use Proleague statistics.
Don't get me wrong here. I understand why but if even TL is going to claim in a mockery statement that eSF can't reach high rank in PR its get annoying. It's bad enough as it is with the whole eSF vs KeSPA shit, we don't need TL to inflame it even further.
Which ESF players deserve to be at the top of the power rank?
On July 04 2013 08:09 nimdil wrote: Flash and Fantasy are too high. Especially in case of Fantasy I don't see how can one justify his high position in PR.
Probably because Fantasy played against First after July 1st?
On July 04 2013 07:41 PerSe wrote: Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
But that is not why only there are soo much in the top 10. Read the explenation and count how many times they say Proleague.You can play awesome and go toe to toe with the best of KeSPA (Mvp) but as long as some people get a decent run in proleague you won't get high in the ranks simply cause you can't participate in PL.
That's got nothing to do with Kespa-bias though. That's just because Proleague gives regular results (weekly matches). You can't fault the writers for using the numbers that they have, especially in a monthly based ranking system.
Really the problem is that GSTL doesn't have enough matches/ESF players don't get as much exposure, rather than with the methodology. It would be weirder NOT to use Proleague statistics.
Don't get me wrong here. I understand why but if even TL is going to claim in a mockery statement that eSF can't reach high rank in PR its get annoying. It's bad enough as it is with the whole eSF vs KeSPA shit, we don't need TL to inflame it even further.
Which ESF players deserve to be at the top of the power rank?
read comprehension...failing. Require...reboot. Fine. KeSPA! Elephants! eSF sux! Will never reach PR1! BW! Scene was a farce! Proleague! If you can't read and understand my statement this has no use to discuss. I am out of here, hf trying to jump around the issue.
I admit, I’m a total eSF fanboy and watch basically no Proleague (due to time zone nonsense and what-not) but are Rain and Flash really that good? I mean I read their reasons for retaining their 4th and 3rd spots respectively but it seems like a little bit of biased to me. Are there any Kespa fanboys out there who can help me see the light?
On July 04 2013 08:12 Greendotz wrote: I admit, I’m a total eSF fanboy and watch basically no Proleague (due to time zone nonsense and what-not) but are Rain and Flash really that good? I mean I read their reasons for retaining their 4th and 3rd spots respectively but it seems like a little bit of biased to me. Are there any Kespa fanboys out there who can help me see the light?
Flash has pretty much locked up most wins in proleague and I think Rain might have the best win % for a person with a large number of games (so excluding anyone that might be like 100% wins 2 games played or something). Rain is either 2nd or 3rd in total wins.
Power ranking should have two separate classement, Proleague and WCS It's so different that you can't really compare someone like Fantasy to someone like Mvp really.
On July 04 2013 07:41 PerSe wrote: Cream-of-the-crop Kespa> cream-of-the-crop ESF, especially with Life's slump. Really when you compare Bomber/Taeja, Symbol and Squirtle to guys like Innovation, Soulkey and Rain, is it that surprising that Kespa players dominate the top 10?
But that is not why only there are soo much in the top 10. Read the explenation and count how many times they say Proleague.You can play awesome and go toe to toe with the best of KeSPA (Mvp) but as long as some people get a decent run in proleague you won't get high in the ranks simply cause you can't participate in PL.
That's got nothing to do with Kespa-bias though. That's just because Proleague gives regular results (weekly matches). You can't fault the writers for using the numbers that they have, especially in a monthly based ranking system.
Really the problem is that GSTL doesn't have enough matches/ESF players don't get as much exposure, rather than with the methodology. It would be weirder NOT to use Proleague statistics.
Don't get me wrong here. I understand why but if even TL is going to claim in a mockery statement that eSF can't reach high rank in PR its get annoying. It's bad enough as it is with the whole eSF vs KeSPA shit, we don't need TL to inflame it even further.
Which ESF players deserve to be at the top of the power rank?
read comprehension...failing. Require...reboot. Fine. KeSPA! Elephants! eSF sux! Will never reach PR1! BW! Scene was a farce! Proleague! If you can't read and understand my statement this has no use to discuss. I am out of here, hf trying to jump around the issue.
What? If ESF players dominate this OSL, they will make it onto the power rank. If they have a mediocre performance and play no games anywhere else, they obviously won't. What do you expect?
On July 04 2013 08:12 Greendotz wrote: I admit, I’m a total eSF fanboy and watch basically no Proleague (due to time zone nonsense and what-not) but are Rain and Flash really that good? I mean I read their reasons for retaining their 4th and 3rd spots respectively but it seems like a little bit of biased to me. Are there any Kespa fanboys out there who can help me see the light?
Yes, they are that good. Rain is the best protoss in the world bar none (although, if First keeps on playing like he is, he may be a contender for that position) and Flash is just Flash. He keeps on beating nubs and sometimes loses. Basically what Flash does in SC2. He is not something extra, like Innovation, he is more like MVP. His strongest point (also Rains, actually) is playing safe macro, sick game sense and willingness to ocassionaly bring some cheese. Seriously, he is almost exactly like MVP - you don't even know why and how, but he just wins with the most basic, safe macro build ever. Well, Flash actually has superior macro to almost any player out there already...
Also, if you like high level Starcraft, I would recommend checking out Proleague They have free 1080p english VoDs on their Youtube, so timezone shouldn't be a problem...
How did you manage to turn this into another Kespa vs eSF bullshit. I guess if you name a topic with something like - Another 12 options of making pottery" it will turn somehow into KvsE.
On topic, nice Power Rank. Personally I would lower Fantasy but this is my opinion. I am not convinced by his play last month. Also I hope that First can continue his great play and appear in the list next time. JangBi YEH!
I feel that Fantasy and Jangbi should be lower, at least below MVP. Polt shouldn't even be there with the way he macro in his final game vs hyun, floating that much minerals.even though winning. He was just ahead of the meta this time with his hellbats maruder and hellion timings. Polt also bombed out of Dreamhack Stockhom earlier, dropping games to Grubby, Huk and Snuffles.
On July 04 2013 08:31 xluik wrote: I feel that Fantasy and Jangbi should be lower, at least below MVP. Polt shouldn't even be there with the way he macro in his final game vs hyun, floating that much minerals.even though winning. He was just ahead of the meta this time with his hellbats maruder and hellion timings. Polt also bombed out of Dreamhack Stockhom earlier, dropping games to Grubby, Huk and Snuffles.
On July 04 2013 08:12 Greendotz wrote: I admit, I’m a total eSF fanboy and watch basically no Proleague (due to time zone nonsense and what-not) but are Rain and Flash really that good? I mean I read their reasons for retaining their 4th and 3rd spots respectively but it seems like a little bit of biased to me. Are there any Kespa fanboys out there who can help me see the light?
You should watch some of the recommended VODs. They're all free and available on their YouTube channel right away. The casting is generally pretty atrocious, but the level of play makes up for it in spades imo.
LOL at the innovation one. I really hate how far Life has fallen, but I think he will be back to his old prime soon enough . Though I'm confused why Flash is so highly ranked, I really don't think he deserves that rank, unless I just haven't seem him recently.
On July 04 2013 08:31 xluik wrote: I feel that Fantasy and Jangbi should be lower, at least below MVP. Polt shouldn't even be there with the way he macro in his final game vs hyun, floating that much minerals.even though winning. He was just ahead of the meta this time with his hellbats maruder and hellion timings. Polt also bombed out of Dreamhack Stockhom earlier, dropping games to Grubby, Huk and Snuffles.
Dreamhack Stockholm was in April.
Well point still stands with how well he plays. If he deserves a mention, Stardust would be in that list too since he won most of games because the opponents reacted badly to him.
I would drop fantasy off the list he just doesnt have the accomplishments yet. Tons of other qualified players deserve to be a bit higher maybe immvp up one spot or someone else from proleague?
Jangbi, Fantasy, sOs high placed in the top 10 while Parting is not even in it... Results are important, but results in individual leagues even more I feel.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
Placing higher in a single tournament last season doesn't merit a higher placing in of itself. Who deserves to be 3rd/4th instead?
the 3rd/4th place rankings are being done mostly on faith that we know that they are the 3rd/4th best players, this was done a lot on the BW power rankings where a player like flash could have a bad month but still stay in the top 2.
I think monk did a really good job considering the difficulty of placing players that don't play in proleague, GSTL is far too irregular to be used in a monthly power rank. The only thing I would change is put mvp #7 and fantasy #8.
On July 04 2013 09:14 Mensol wrote: wow too many esf players in top 10.
Hahaha.
But seriously, I can't really think of that many stellar esf players, especially that performed well in June. In that sense, I think this list is pretty accurate, but I don't think Fantasy and perhaps even Jangbi shouldbe higher than Mvp.
Thanks, I missed tis kind of thing, it is a really nice thing to scour the old BW ranking to see some gems (how Soulkey was strong in the end of BW, or how Bogus and MVP made some appearances)
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
Don't like the list either, but maybe thats because i put more emphasis on being present in tournaments and still be a badass. Instead of poking benchers in the cellar just to play one map every week, which of course will look super badass then. Or maybe I am still to used to flash playing like flash in that system.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
Come to think of it, when was the last time Flash beat any top esf pro?I think Taeja might be better than Flash. He is better than Fanta for sure.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
Come to think of it, when was the last time Flash beat any top esf pro?I think Taeja might be better than Flash. He is better than Fanta for sure.
Right. . . because Flash isn't 2-0 vs Taeja in proleague.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
Come to think of it, when was the last time Flash beat any top esf pro?I think Taeja might be better than Flash. He is better than Fanta for sure.
9 days ago. When he beat Hero And if not, Taeja 3 weeks ago. If hero doesnt count, then it was Life. Inbetween hero and Life, there are no Top eSF players that he's played. unless you want to regard parting as one.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
Come to think of it, when was the last time Flash beat any top esf pro?I think Taeja might be better than Flash. He is better than Fanta for sure.
There is also no way Taeja is better than Flash. Whether if its head to head match up, or accomplishments in the past month.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
ok, who has done more than Flash/Rain? The rag on Flash from what I see is "well he hasnt won anything". This is true, but thats nto how you purely judge a player. You look at his results in the past month, and he is one of the most consistent players. If he enters something, he gets far. The same rule apply to Soulkey and Innovation, except Soulkey bummed out in the MLG qualifiers. Rain has been tearing up everyone in SPL. His PvT record is absolutely godly. He convincingly won his group.
During the period of KeSPA players move from BW to WOL, lots of prediction abt how it gonna be, well this should be the perfect answer.
I dont agree w/ Fantasy and Jangbi place thou, their achievements are very limited to PL, what bring them to that position is more of the hype than the actual fact, for Jangbi he may get past the first round of OSL 2-0 but the 1 match rule is quite stupid imo and seem like what happen in the GSTL does not count anymore except for the fact that he use that as a reason to drop Life out (and I completely agree lol). Fantasy lose some and win some, his PL record is not even that great plus his recent collapse before First should hint that he still long way to go to get back the glory of the old days.
How is Fantasy in top 10? and How in the world is sOs of all people in the top 10 after getting massacred in the RO32. I think Stardust should be number 10 with everyone else moving up a spot after removing sOs. Not a very good power rank imo.
On July 04 2013 10:35 Shellshock1122 wrote: sOs still made the season 1 finals taking out the GSL champ, beat Flash in AIG, and had a good record in Proleague. How can you justify removing him?
but but... he lost 2 games he must be terrible... + Show Spoiler +
sarcasm mode: ON
edit: real talk though people are freaking out as usual because their favorite players or players they dislike are or aren't in the top 10, people complain even though this power rank is subjective and should always be viewed as such.
On July 04 2013 10:34 mrRoflpwn wrote: How is Fantasy in top 10? and How in the world is sOs of all people in the top 10 after getting massacred in the RO32. I think Stardust should be number 10 with everyone else moving up a spot after removing sOs. Not a very good power rank imo.
Fantasy is doing fairly well in PL and made the ro16 in OSL over Life and Jangbi. Decent enough for the month of June.
With his recent loss to First, and what will probably be a loss to Rain...possibly even Hyvaa, I expect he'll be dropped out for August.
With Fantasy's one sided loss to First being played in July after the ranking period, I guess it doesn't count yet so I guess Fantasy is a reasonable choice.
On July 04 2013 10:34 mrRoflpwn wrote: How is Fantasy in top 10? and How in the world is sOs of all people in the top 10 after getting massacred in the RO32. I think Stardust should be number 10 with everyone else moving up a spot after removing sOs. Not a very good power rank imo.
Fantasy is doing fairly well in PL and made the ro16 in OSL over Life and Jangbi. Decent enough for the month of June.
With his recent loss to First, and what will probably be a loss to Rain...possibly even Hyvaa, I expect he'll be dropped out for August.
The fact that Proleague has so many games makes these players in the Top 10, which of course means little. I agree that Flash can be the top 3. But Janbi? Fantasy? what have they won, like ever?
On July 04 2013 10:34 mrRoflpwn wrote: How is Fantasy in top 10? and How in the world is sOs of all people in the top 10 after getting massacred in the RO32. I think Stardust should be number 10 with everyone else moving up a spot after removing sOs. Not a very good power rank imo.
Fantasy is doing fairly well in PL and made the ro16 in OSL over Life and Jangbi. Decent enough for the month of June.
With his recent loss to First, and what will probably be a loss to Rain...possibly even Hyvaa, I expect he'll be dropped out for August.
The fact that Proleague has so many games makes these players in the Top 10, which of course means little. I agree that Flash can be the top 3. But Janbi? Fantasy? what have they won, like ever?
Fantasy got 1st in the group of death that had the likes of Jangbi, Losira and LIfe. He's also made one of the pimpest plays (although this shouldnt get much merit) in his game vs Flash. If he didnt have a brainfart in the game vs First, he's been pretty impressive overall.
As for Jangbi. Samsung Khan is on the brink of elimination, Jangbi's been carrying Samsung Khan hard. He's one of the main reasons why Samsung Khan is still barely in the playoff race. being down 3-1 and winning 4-3 with Jangbi winning two of those three games was rather impressive. Jangbi also made it to the finals of the MLG qualifier failing to Dear, he was awfully close. Jangb dropped out of Ro32 but his competition of the group of death. He's arugably the 3rd best protoss Kespa has to offer.
There is justification. Personally I also think Fantasy is placed too high but I can see why people slotted him there.
flash is too high, did not beat anyone, had only average record in the pro league, hugely overrated until he delivers outside of pro league fantasy still plays sloppy as hell with horrible macro AND micro and is not even close to be better than polt in his current form jangbi plays NOT consistent, but did beat a few good players, bombed out in OSL though, does not deserve that high ranking aswell parting is missing, after showing decent to good play, above average record in pro league and making it to the next group stage in OSL mvp behind fantasy jangbi and super shaky sOs who lost to maru and sOO? not sure if serious first is missing completely after convincing victories over roro, leenock, fantasy and a not too long ago all kill over prime?
1 innovation 2. soulkey 3. rain 4. mvp 5. flash 6. sOs 7. polt 8. jangbi 9. parting 10. first
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
Hero, Taeja, Symbol, MVP have all done more/as much than Flash recently. So yes.
Again, i'm not necessarily advoacting that Flash is bad, and he's playing well, and i could easily see him taking this seasons OSL.
But based on recent results he really hasn't earned his spot there. It's just stupid and detracts from the whole legitimacy of the power rankings. It's basically just a "we like these guys" poll there.
Also, keep in mind this is all purely subjective. This isnt "this is the unanimous top 10 and everything else is wrong" you are entitled to have input. However, with that being said stating that the top 10 is wrong because such and such player x should be in there is completely irrational/illogical to state.
Take into the factor also that players just dont fluctuate from #1 to out of the power rankings because they had a few poor performances. It takes into account that the players skill has been proven to be solid however had suffered a few losses. Life is one of those rare exceptions because he's almost literally every game he's played in the month of June. Absolutely shocking.
Finally take into the factor that, this isnt "what have you done for me lately" but tracking the player's developments over the course of a month. People discredit fantasy for getting demolished by First, but I'm sure they forget some of his stellar play that lead him to being strongly considered and inserted in the top 10.
On July 04 2013 07:37 giririsss wrote: Pretty terrible list.
Nice Kespa heavy bias.
How to make top5 on TL PR, play pro-league and do mediocre everywhere else.
The TL PR becomes more irrelevant.
Yea since eSF players are better than KeSPA players!
OH wait.
Yeah, cause rain and flash did so much last season in WCS KR... oh wait.
I don't even mind the first two, but rain and flash being up there is just lacking any substance to it. It's just showing old bias with no legitimacy.
And i'm not arguing for Lifes inclusion. He's in a slump and playing poorly.
But others have done more than flash/rain and are ranked lower for no reason other than they don't play pro-league, which is just dumb as all of the mid-tier pro-league guys are most certainly not hands down better than everyone else and have regularly proven so.
holy hell. . . lol. Are you arguing that there are eSF players better than Flash?
Hero, Taeja, Symbol, MVP have all done more/as much than Flash recently. So yes.
Again, i'm not necessarily advoacting that Flash is bad, and he's playing well, and i could easily see him taking this seasons OSL.
But based on recent results he really hasn't earned his spot there. It's just stupid and detracts from the whole legitimacy of the power rankings. It's basically just a "we like these guys" poll there.
???? He's earned the spot there as much as everyone else on the list. It isnt "we like these guys" sort of poll although obviously there is always going to be small biases here and there.
I'm looking at your list. Hero. taeja. Mvp. you seem to advocate that they deserve higher rankings than Flash because they've won something, Flash hasnt. Your logic for symbol seems to be Symbol go to the ro4 in WCS, Flash didnt. Again, you dont judge a player purely by the # of tournaments he's won, you have to look at the games themselves, quality of opponents etc.
This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Damn, it sucks seeing neither PartinG nor Life in the top ten, but they are still really good players and hopefully were just having an off month. I excect big things from them this month! :D
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
On July 04 2013 11:29 Kitaen wrote: flash is too high, did not beat anyone, had only average record in the pro league, hugely overrated until he delivers outside of pro league fantasy still plays sloppy as hell with horrible macro AND micro and is not even close to be better than polt in his current form jangbi plays NOT consistent, but did beat a few good players, bombed out in OSL though, does not deserve that high ranking aswell parting is missing, after showing decent to good play, above average record in pro league and making it to the next group stage in OSL mvp behind fantasy jangbi and super shaky sOs who lost to maru and sOO? not sure if serious first is missing completely after convincing victories over roro, leenock, fantasy and a not too long ago all kill over prime?
1 innovation 2. soulkey 3. rain 4. mvp 5. flash 6. sOs 7. polt 8. jangbi 9. parting 10. first
Youre playing the game of "what have you done for me in the past week". Obviously the only games of fantasy you've watched was the one vs First where he played like absolute shit. I didnt know bombing out of the OSL means you should be excluded from the top 10, I suppose if Innovation got knocked out, you'd be saying the same thing?
Obviously, you're judging Jangbi based on one fact. The fact that he dropped out of OSL. You lost all credibility of your argument when you said he's not consistent. Jangbi's been absolutely tearing it up in the month of June, it was rather a shocker he dropped out of the group of death especially after completely dominating Losira in the 1st set.
First played fantasy in JULY. This is a JUNE power ranking. And yes, First did all kill Prime. But that was in MAY. Again this is a JUNE power ranking. He's been impressive though but to judge him on 4 games? Too small of a sample size.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Hi, welcome to team league RTS played at the highest level, please consult the years of history behind BW and WC3 before making assertions about Bo1 vs Bo3.
In all seriousness, team league is valued over individual league in Korea, because results influence other people besides yourself. That is why they practice 1 build for 1 match, religiously, and moreso than any other player; winning is everything, not for yourself in an individual tour, but for your whole team.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
On July 04 2013 11:42 kolz wrote: In what world are Taeja and Polt better than Symbol, PartinG and RorO?
Roro has looked awful in the month of June. Parting's record for the month of June is WLWLWLWLWLWLWLWLWLWL, hardly notable. Symbol I feel should have been in the list but thats just me.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
Oh, so according to that logic, I suppose Innovation and Soulkey are awful players. Dear soo and Stats are the face of Kespa and they bombed out so Innovation and Soulkey? Not even worth of players like Polt. Much less players like Flash and Jangbi.
Yea, MLG should obviously the only way to judge talent. All those silly players making a custom strategy based on the map/player in the OSL, GSL and SPL. If they didnt pull of that b/s, they would be all bronze leaguers.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
On July 04 2013 12:05 lichter wrote: I bet the TL writing staff just laughs at how much TL likes to argue about the writers' opinions.
I have no qualms of people making a case of why a player deserves top 10, but to discredit other people's opinions as well as formulating completely asinine arguments just bothers me.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent. "Do you want a player that can play any map?" Are you trying to tell me, the players on the list can only play certain maps and only certain match ups?? What??? So you're telling me, that these players have only 1 strategy in their repertoire and if it wasnt a bo1 they would fail?
I personally hate the OSL Bo1 Dual Tournament format but it is what it is. And obviously the power rankings isnt judged purely on the OSL, but overall.
On July 04 2013 10:34 mrRoflpwn wrote: How is Fantasy in top 10? and How in the world is sOs of all people in the top 10 after getting massacred in the RO32. I think Stardust should be number 10 with everyone else moving up a spot after removing sOs. Not a very good power rank imo.
Fantasy is doing fairly well in PL and made the ro16 in OSL over Life and Jangbi. Decent enough for the month of June.
With his recent loss to First, and what will probably be a loss to Rain...possibly even Hyvaa, I expect he'll be dropped out for August.
The fact that Proleague has so many games makes these players in the Top 10, which of course means little. I agree that Flash can be the top 3. But Janbi? Fantasy? what have they won, like ever?
Fantasy got 1st in the group of death that had the likes of Jangbi, Losira and LIfe. He's also made one of the pimpest plays (although this shouldnt get much merit) in his game vs Flash. If he didnt have a brainfart in the game vs First, he's been pretty impressive overall.
As for Jangbi. Samsung Khan is on the brink of elimination, Jangbi's been carrying Samsung Khan hard. He's one of the main reasons why Samsung Khan is still barely in the playoff race. being down 3-1 and winning 4-3 with Jangbi winning two of those three games was rather impressive. Jangbi also made it to the finals of the MLG qualifier failing to Dear, he was awfully close. Jangb dropped out of Ro32 but his competition of the group of death. He's arugably the 3rd best protoss Kespa has to offer.
There is justification. Personally I also think Fantasy is placed too high but I can see why people slotted him there.
Bo1 games don't count much, not in proleague, not in OSL ro32, at least not for me. As for his game vs Flash, another sample would be his game vs JYP, i wouldn't be too impressed at all. He might be Top 10 in TvT, but overall, definitely nowhere near 7th.
I agree Janbi is the 3rd best Protoss atm in proleague. But 6th in the world? i don't think so. I even quite like Janbi as Kespa players. But falling to Dear was awful enough. I couldn't imagine any top 10 player falling to dear in bo3. No, not even top 20 players. Just look at how polt dominate Dear in fashion.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent. "Do you want a player that can play any map?" Are you trying to tell me, the players on the list can only play certain maps and only certain match ups?? What??? So you're telling me, that these players have only 1 strategy in their repertoire and if it wasnt a bo1 they would fail?
I personally hate the OSL Bo1 Dual Tournament format but it is what it is. And obviously the power rankings isnt judged purely on the OSL, but overall.
You clearly didn't get it. Of course they can play other maps or any other strategy. But their performance is based on Proleague results in which they only practice one map, one strategy with one opponent. This actually leads to the imbalanced performance of Proleague players. Example: Fantasy's TVT is infidelity in top 10. But his TvP? Not even close!
On July 04 2013 10:34 mrRoflpwn wrote: How is Fantasy in top 10? and How in the world is sOs of all people in the top 10 after getting massacred in the RO32. I think Stardust should be number 10 with everyone else moving up a spot after removing sOs. Not a very good power rank imo.
Fantasy is doing fairly well in PL and made the ro16 in OSL over Life and Jangbi. Decent enough for the month of June.
With his recent loss to First, and what will probably be a loss to Rain...possibly even Hyvaa, I expect he'll be dropped out for August.
The fact that Proleague has so many games makes these players in the Top 10, which of course means little. I agree that Flash can be the top 3. But Janbi? Fantasy? what have they won, like ever?
Fantasy got 1st in the group of death that had the likes of Jangbi, Losira and LIfe. He's also made one of the pimpest plays (although this shouldnt get much merit) in his game vs Flash. If he didnt have a brainfart in the game vs First, he's been pretty impressive overall.
As for Jangbi. Samsung Khan is on the brink of elimination, Jangbi's been carrying Samsung Khan hard. He's one of the main reasons why Samsung Khan is still barely in the playoff race. being down 3-1 and winning 4-3 with Jangbi winning two of those three games was rather impressive. Jangbi also made it to the finals of the MLG qualifier failing to Dear, he was awfully close. Jangb dropped out of Ro32 but his competition of the group of death. He's arugably the 3rd best protoss Kespa has to offer.
There is justification. Personally I also think Fantasy is placed too high but I can see why people slotted him there.
Bo1 games don't count much, not in proleague, not in OSL ro32, at least not for me. As for his game vs Flash, another sample would be his game vs JYP, i wouldn't be too impressed at all. He might be Top 10 in TvT, but overall, definitely nowhere near 7th.
I agree he's the 3rd best Protoss atm in proleague. But 6th in the world? i don't think so. I even quite like Janbi as Kespa players. But falling to Dear was awful enough. I couldn't imagine any top 10 player falling to dear in bo3. No, not even top 20 players. Just look at how polt dominate Dear in fashion.
I dont understand this bo1 is invalid argument. The players who have been producing the best BO1 results ARE Innovation, Rain, Soulkey, Flash, the same bunch of players who basically are locks to go in far in any tournament. so are you saying that everything they're doing in SPL is invalid? Also it was PvP, PvP is a coinflip.
"I couldnt imagine any top 10 player falling to dear in bo3" So how was it, trying to imagine Labyrinth 2-1 Soulkey? I think that's more embarassing.
Just out of curiousity, who do you think is "top 10"?
On July 04 2013 12:09 Megiddosc wrote: Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Hey if everyone was the same the world would be boring. I'm the opposite of you, I want to see two people try to mind fuck each other with insane build orders because they got into the other persons head and figured them out totalaly. It's more creative, strategic and entertaining. It also gives a good story about each player, their tendencies, counteracting those tendencies, etc, etc. It literately puts the "strategy" in RTS. For me anyway.
"Any player, any map, any time" is fine, but I personally think it produces rote games that are fairly uneventful and boring in the aggregate. It doesn't produce story lines of head to head combat, mind games, etc as much as the other way. It just feels like...grinding through games. Again, I don't personally find that interesting.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent. "Do you want a player that can play any map?" Are you trying to tell me, the players on the list can only play certain maps and only certain match ups?? What??? So you're telling me, that these players have only 1 strategy in their repertoire and if it wasnt a bo1 they would fail?
I personally hate the OSL Bo1 Dual Tournament format but it is what it is. And obviously the power rankings isnt judged purely on the OSL, but overall.
You clearly didn't get it. Of course they can play other maps or any other strategy. But their performance is based on Proleague results in which they only practice one map, one strategy with one opponent. This actually leads to the imbalanced performance of Proleague players. Example: Fantasy's TVT is infidelity in top 10. But his TvP? Not even close!
Yes, one map/one strategy/one opponent, the same way people prepare for upcoming matches against player X by preparing a build for map x vs specific opponent a, "build #2 for map y vs specific opponent a" the only thing that changes is quantity. Every other variable is the same.
Fantasy TvP is nowhere close to Fantasy's TvT though. that's true. However, Life is infamous for having a bad or medicore ZvZ but having a godly ZvT and ZvP, so during Life's reign, does that discredit him as not the best player at that time?
So this is the first sc2 article I've read on TL in a while. I thought it was a bw power rank after glancing at the players. Where's all the foreigners? hahaha
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You wouldn't think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents, right?
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You really don't understand that preparing for just one or two games is much different than preparing for five or six games? Okay then.
On July 04 2013 12:23 ohN wrote: So this is the first sc2 article I've read on TL in a while. I thought it was a bw power rank after glancing at the players. Where's all the foreigners? hahaha
foreigners on a list of the top 10 players in the world? maybe naniwa will crack it one day...
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You wouldn't think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents, right?
It is relatively the same, more time needed to make strategies for an extra opponent or two but relatively the same. The players succeeding in Bo1 are the same players who are succeeding in BO3/Bo5/Bo7. With bigger sample size, for any given player you will start to settle on a median. Take into the factor that opponent is also thinking of a strategy for a specific map for a specific opponent. There are "Snipers", but in no way is any of the players in the given list a "Sniper"
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent. "Do you want a player that can play any map?" Are you trying to tell me, the players on the list can only play certain maps and only certain match ups?? What??? So you're telling me, that these players have only 1 strategy in their repertoire and if it wasnt a bo1 they would fail?
I personally hate the OSL Bo1 Dual Tournament format but it is what it is. And obviously the power rankings isnt judged purely on the OSL, but overall.
You clearly didn't get it. Of course they can play other maps or any other strategy. But their performance is based on Proleague results in which they only practice one map, one strategy with one opponent. This actually leads to the imbalanced performance of Proleague players. Example: Fantasy's TVT is infidelity in top 10. But his TvP? Not even close!
Yes, one map/one strategy/one opponent, the same way people prepare for upcoming matches against player X by preparing a build for map x vs specific opponent a, "build #2 for map y vs specific opponent a" the only thing that changes is quantity. Every other variable is the same.
Fantasy TvP is nowhere close to Fantasy's TvT though. that's true. However, Life is infamous for having a bad or medicore ZvZ but having a godly ZvT and ZvP, so during Life's reign, does that discredit him as not the best player at that time?
Exactly, the only thing changed is quantity. So you think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents. Then i will argue no more in this matter.
As for Life's zvz, its never bad. It's just not as good as his ZvT or ZvP. Actually, his ZvZ win ratio at that time is around 70%. He just fell to the better ZvZ player Roro and soulkey who both turned out to be champions. I don's see JYP or First a champion anytime soon.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You wouldn't think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents, right?
The players succeeding in Bo1 are the same players who are succeeding in BO3/Bo5/Bo7.
Soulkey lost a Bo1 to Yugioh. I really don't think you can put much weight on Bo1.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You really don't understand that preparing for just one or two games is much different than preparing for five or six games? Okay then.
Of course its much different. theres more preparation needed, but thats about it. Your argument is completely illogical because its centralized around the fact that "bo1" is invalid. There is no supporting evidence that anyone on that list whether it be Fanta/Jangbi/Flash/Soulkey/Innovation/Rain are not "good players that are ready on any map, at any time"
"Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?"
- This quote, is full of crap. Why? Because players are always going to practice and in most cases make specific builds.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You wouldn't think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents, right?
It is relatively the same, more time needed to make strategies for an extra opponent or two but relatively the same. The players succeeding in Bo1 are the same players who are succeeding in BO3/Bo5/Bo7. With bigger sample size, for any given player you will start to settle on a median. Take into the factor that opponent is also thinking of a strategy for a specific map for a specific opponent. There are "Snipers", but in no way is any of the players in the given list a "Sniper"
It's not the same. Only if a players has infinity memory. 5 maps with 3 opponent could give you more than 10 different matches. And you got it backwards, the players success in BOx can success in BO1, since they are the best players. While the players success in BO1 not necessary success in BOx. Players like Hydra, Zest, Hero, Effort are all in Proleague Top 10. I don't see them deliver any individual results anytime soon.
On July 04 2013 11:53 LighT. wrote: [quote] Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You wouldn't think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents, right?
The players succeeding in Bo1 are the same players who are succeeding in BO3/Bo5/Bo7.
Soulkey lost a Bo1 to Yugioh. I really don't think you can put much weight on Bo1.
You dont get it. You really dont. I would be all over this PR if it was judging a player by a 1-2 bo1 on judging a player. You dont and you can't. This assessment is made over a large quantity of games, opponents and tournaments. I've made this clear when I've solidified my argument of why Fanta/Rain/Jangbi are justified and why First isnt (Small sample size, too few games). So because upsets can happen, you dont put weight in Bo1? That's exactly what youre suggesting. So all of those players, who consistent win their Bo1 deserves no credit? Seriously?
Feel free to argue about the format of SPL/OSL being Ro1s. I dont like it either and prefer all-kill and double elmination, however that doesnt mean the results should be discredited.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You really don't understand that preparing for just one or two games is much different than preparing for five or six games? Okay then.
Of course its much different. theres more preparation needed, but thats about it. Your argument is completely illogical because its centralized around the fact that "bo1" is invalid. There is no supporting evidence that anyone on that list whether it be Fanta/Jangbi/Flash/Soulkey/Innovation/Rain are not "good players that are ready on any map, at any time"
"Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?"
- This quote, is full of crap. Why? Because players are always going to practice and in most cases make specific builds.
I guess we need to stop here if you can not understand the difference between one game and five games. What am i to say. A Sorites Paradox. You can never argue someone who is in a Paradox because it seems so logic to himself.
On July 04 2013 12:00 Megiddosc wrote: [quote] Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You wouldn't think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents, right?
The players succeeding in Bo1 are the same players who are succeeding in BO3/Bo5/Bo7.
Soulkey lost a Bo1 to Yugioh. I really don't think you can put much weight on Bo1.
So because upsets can happen, you dont put weight in Bo1?
Not as much weight, no. There's a reason GSL stopped with Bo1s in the Code S Ro32. There have been countless of occasions where a player would win the first game in a Bo3 only to lose the next two. Bo1 is not nearly as impressive to me as Bo3+.
If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?
You're not doing yourselves any favors with your argumentation, even though I also rarely agree with the way these power ranks are sorted.
And that Baroninthetree guy is doing even worse because I can't understand what he's trying to say -_-''
On July 04 2013 11:53 LighT. wrote: [quote] Agreed! SPL is so boring to watch for Megiddosc, wtf are we judging players based on team leagues??? We should be judging the players solely on 1 tournament MLG and GSTL. How many games did Kespa players win in the GSTL? 0. ESF WON ALL OF THEM!. My god SPL is putridly bad.
players like Jangbi, fantasy and flash are awful players because Dear and soo bombed out of MLG! YEA, AMEN BROTHER!.All those b-teamer kespa players who barely see action in SPL, They looked awful!!! WTFBBQ WHY ISNT LZGAMER TOP10 IN LIST? STUPID LIST. OBVIOUSLY Kespa sucks!
...you have no idea what youre talking about.
Congratulations. You can do hyperbole. When you want to discuss things, I'm all ears.
In the past 2-3 pages, if you take the time to read my posts, I've explained exactly why Jangbi/Fantasy and Flash may be deserving of their spot. All you have is a hate speech.
The thing that we need to discuss is that there is a disconnect between the way SPL/OSL sets up and all other SC2 tournaments.
Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
Megiddosc. For GSL and OSL, you know players make strategies based on the map and the opponent right? Just like how they formulate a strategy in SPL based on the map/opponent.
GSL Ro32 is Bo3 double elimination GSL Ro16 is Bo3 double elimination
OSL Ro32 is Bo1. OSL Ro16 is Bo3 Round Robin. But you only play 1 match at a time. It gives more time to setup a specific build on a specific map for the next opponent.
Starting to understand?
Yes, I understand that, that changes absolutely nothing of what I am arguing. even in double elimination players still devise specific strategies for player x,y and z. for specific maps.
You wouldn't think prepare for one map and one opponent is the same as prepare for 5 maps with 3 opponents, right?
It is relatively the same, more time needed to make strategies for an extra opponent or two but relatively the same. The players succeeding in Bo1 are the same players who are succeeding in BO3/Bo5/Bo7. With bigger sample size, for any given player you will start to settle on a median. Take into the factor that opponent is also thinking of a strategy for a specific map for a specific opponent. There are "Snipers", but in no way is any of the players in the given list a "Sniper"
It's not the same. Only if a players has infinity memory. 5 maps with 3 opponent could give you more than 10 different matches. And you got it backwards, the players success in BOx can success in BO1, since they are the best players. While the players success in BO1 not necessary success in BOx. Players like Hydra, Zest, Hero, Effort are all in Proleague Top 10. I don't see them deliver any individual results anytime soon.
Hydra's record in SPL is carried through his record in WoL, so is herO's they've been awful at HoTS, anyway they're both in Code A. Moving onto Zest, zest is basically a PvP sniper. he's good at PvP, only mediocre at everything else, also he's KT so expecting him to have individual success is pushing it. effort's been screwed over multiple times in up and downs because of the tie-breakers. (Edit: Efforts a good player btw, top 20-25 ish player) And absolutely, players that succeed in BOx can succeed in BO1. Again, let's analyze the players in question: Fantasy, Jangbi and Flash.
Jangbi's June record: June 3rd - Prepared Bo1 vs Flash Win June 3rd - Ace Match Bo1 vs Flash Loss Jun 5: 2-1 Sondurgi 2-1 Cure 2-0 Bisu 1-2 Dear.
Jun 13 - Argo W (prepared map) Jun 17 - Bisu L (prepared map) Jun 17 - Rain W (Ace match, unprepared) Jun 23 - JYP W (Prepared map) Jun 23 - Jaedong W (Ace match, unprepared) Jun 25- Kangho W, Fantasy L, Kangho L.
So let's see. You have Jangbi having 4 BO3 victories. 2-1 in ace matches which came on against an unknown opponent, where in two of those occasions where he is 2-0 in if he loses once, Samsung Khan is out of the playoffs.
In "Prepared matches" He is 3-1 So yes, by what you're saying Jangbi is a great player. He succeeds in BOx so he can succeed in BO1 as well.
Fantasy (I personally dont think he's a Top 10 player but I'm going to justify his case anyway) Jun 2 - Zenio W (prepared map) Jun 2 - Jaedong W (Ace matc, unprepared) Jun 4 - Innovation L Jun 5 - 0-2 loss to Myungsik (rofl) Jun 13 - Flash W (there was no "prepared" build in this game at all, if youve bothered watching it) Jun 17 - Reality W (Prepared matchup) Jun 22 - Trust W (prepared match up) Jun 24 - Light L (prepared match up) Jun 25 - Life W (bo3) Jun 25 - Jangbi W (Bo3)
So we've concluded Jangbi is a great player. Edit: Correction Fantasy is 0-1 in Bo3, forgot the single elimination dual format
In his one ace match, he won, unprepared map 1-0 In his "prepared matches" he is 6-2 his losses coming to Innovation (if you dont think hes good, youre absolutely insane) and Light (who is pretty good at TvT and TvZ but bronze league level at TvP)
Fantasy, solid record. solid player.
Actually seriously, do I have do one for Flash? There is unanimous evidence to suggest there are great players not just in the bo1 settings but overall.
Actually better yet Megiddosc and baroninthree. prove to me why Fantasy/jangbi and Flash are notdeserving of TOp 10 with evidence. Either you two are brilliant trolls or you do have a solid argument in mind.
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
Yes, hydra has a good record. Also if you keep in track of Hydra, hydra's awful in HoTS, however like Sniper he was pretty damn good at WoL, a majority of his wins come from WoL. The FPL points would indicate that.. The record you see is a combination of WoL + HoTS play.
So your argument for Hydra is nil because hes not a good player to begin with.
Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances.
On July 04 2013 13:10 LighT. wrote: Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances.
Absolutely, I look at results. The results are what matter. As it is in any sport. There's no "You tried hard" medal.
On July 04 2013 13:10 LighT. wrote: Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances.
Absolutely, I look at results. The results are what matter. As it is in any sport. There's no "You tried hard" medal.
I've shown you the results of why Jangbi and Fanta are great players What evidence do you have? I would love to eat crow but I dont think there is any to eat in the first place. Edit: Since you love looking at results, I hope you didnt skim over my long post about results for each respective players
On July 04 2013 13:10 LighT. wrote: Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances.
Absolutely, I look at results. The results are what matter. As it is in any sport. There's no "You tried hard" medal.
I've shown you the results of why Jangbi and Fanta are great players
Jangbi lost to Kangho and didn't make Ro16. Fanta got crushed by First. Those are results. If they're top players then they should be advancing in the individual leagues.
On July 04 2013 11:46 Megiddosc wrote: This was a hilarious list. If your "Power Rankings" are to determine the best player after weeks and weeks of practicing one specific build on one specific map then fine, you have your list. I think that's crap though. A good player needs to be ready on any map, at any time. And that's why tournaments such as MLG are far more entertaining for me than Proleague. And you know what, there were KeSPA players at MLG! Maybe not the ones on this list, but that's because the ones listed on this list, except for Flash, were defeated in the KeSPA qualifier tournament. Dear, Stats, and soO did not impress me one bit at MLG. They didn't look terrible of course, but they did not look like they belong to some superior group of players that because they play in Proleague are automatically the best SC2 players on the planet. And these are the players that Flash, Innovation, Rain, etc. are playing in Proleague! I'm not arguing that Innovation/Soulkey/Flash do not deserve their spots. However, I'm arguing that considering KeSPA and Proleague, as whole, above any other body of players is incredibly ridiculous. Oh, and Hitman, Mini, Motive, and Comet looked terrible in the WCS NA qualifier as well. I know they're B-Team and all, but still, they represent KeSPA and Proleague. And one got defeated by LZGamer and another by Massan. In a Bo3. Hilarious.
Maybe a time will come when the majority of KeSPA players can actually prove to be able to do more than play Bo1s with strictly-practiced builds on specific maps, but that time is not now. Not with their, quite frankly, dismal performance at MLG.
On July 04 2013 13:10 LighT. wrote: Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances.
Absolutely, I look at results. The results are what matter. As it is in any sport. There's no "You tried hard" medal.
I've shown you the results of why Jangbi and Fanta are great players
Jangbi lost to Kangho and didn't make Ro16. Fanta got crushed by First. Those are results. If they're top players then they should be advancing in the individual leagues.
And...with that post, Youve proven right now youre full of shit and you have heavy bias against the kespa players. Congraulations. Theres no point in arguing with someone like yourself.
First's game was in July. Thsi is a June power ranking. Jangbi lost to Kangho. Great. How about the series he won vs Kangho? And everything else?
Again, you shouldnt making such accusations if all youre going to do is cherry pick games and results. You obviously have no idea what youre talking about.
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors.
I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense.
(although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players)
On July 04 2013 13:10 LighT. wrote: Edit: This is, I think, a case of "I dont watch SPL but its all BO1 and jangbi couldnt advance to Ro16 and fantasy was shit vs First so theyre bad and shouldnt be in the list" than actually looking at the overall results, games and circumstances.
Absolutely, I look at results. The results are what matter. As it is in any sport. There's no "You tried hard" medal.
I've shown you the results of why Jangbi and Fanta are great players
Jangbi lost to Kangho and didn't make Ro16. Fanta got crushed by First. Those are results. If they're top players then they should be advancing in the individual leagues.
Fantasy's loss to First occurred after the Ranking's period, so it doesn't count yet. It will count in the next period though. So right now only Fantasy's win in his difficult Ro32 group counts.
yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results. Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results. Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results. Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too!
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors.
I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense.
(although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players)
Lichter. Dont waste your time. It's so blantantly clear he is completely sour towards the Kespa players. I'm sure youve noticed it.
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors.
I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense.
(although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players)
Thanks for the clarification then. Replace Hydra with Zest then. Zest has, according to that list, a 68% win percentage in SPL. Zest is Code B. He has never, as far as I can tell, qualified for Code A. How can that be if he has almost 70% win percentage in the most prestigious team league?
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors.
I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense.
(although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players)
Thanks for the clarification then. Replace Hydra with Zest then. Zest has, according to that list, a 68% win percentage in SPL. Zest is Code B. He has never, as far as I can tell, qualified for Code A. How can that be if he has almost 70% win percentage in the most prestigious team league?
This guy..rofl. I've already explained Zest is a PvP sniper. He plays EXLUSIVELY PvPs and quite godly at it. he's mediocre at everything else. Also again he's KT. expecting individual success from a KT player not named Flash is the equivalent of expecting NsHoseo to win the GSTL
On July 04 2013 12:09 Megiddosc wrote: Do you want a player that can play any map, any matchup with no prior specific practice? Or do you want a player who can practice a single specific build to execute on a specific map?
Personally, I'd take the all-around player. Which is why I'm disappointed that OSL is setup much different than GSL had been.But for those who followed BW prefer it the other way. What I'd like to know, is why?
A true champion should be capable of both and our tournament structure reflects that. You have tournaments that emphasise fundamentals (all weekend LANs basically) and tournaments where preparation plays an important role (OSL and to a lesser degree GSL and WCS EU/NA). Note that while preparation is very important in these formats, fundamentals remain the single most important factor. Innovation is far from being the best at preparation but he is nevertheless favoured in any tournament he currently enters.
But to get to your question, why do we like formats that allow players in-depth preparation? Because it leads to far superior games. Take Flash vs Fantasy for example, one of my favourite games from last month. It's a game teeming with preparation, and the result is a strategic freshness you are unlikely to see at any MLG. Flash's build is brilliant, even though it's not a build he could repeat over and over at a weekend LAN. Fantasy's reaction was an incredible surprise, allowing him to turn around a game that looked strategically lost. That game alone placed a big question mark over the viability of Skyterran in TvT, and I'm unbelievably excited to see what Flash has prepared for us in a few hours, whether or not he has figured out a way to make a similar build work after all.
There's a marked parallel to the chess world here. Like in Sc2, the usual chess tournament features a lot of games against different opponents. These tournaments are very meaningful and they influence who we think of as the strongest player of the time, but their importance pales in comparison with a world championship match. A world championship match is simply a long match between two players (the current world champion and his contender) involving an unbelievable amount of preparation. It's the clash of preparation in these matches that truly push the game's strategic limits forward. The resurgence of the Berlin defense originates from Kasparov - the then undisputed best player in the world, think Flash in BW - biting his teeth out game after game against Kramnik's preparation of the Berlin wall. Very few people thought Kramnik had a chance against the god of chess, but he prepared a unique approach to deal with Kasparov's style and in doing so, changed the way we think about the game.
There are BW examples for this too. The Boxer vs Oov finals long ago was a theoretical discussion of 2 port vs fac port over a Bo5. In the theory of the time, 2 port was supposed to beat fac port, but Oov refused to stray from the fac port builds he had prepared and managed to narrowly defeat his mentor.
By contrast weekend LANs, while very fun to watch, are strategically sterile. The only instance of a weekend LAN really pushing the game forward that I can recall is Slayers coming to MLG with their blue flame hellion build long ago. What you will usually get is a weekend of players comparing their fundamentals while the strategical engine of the game idles.
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors.
I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense.
(although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players)
Thanks for the clarification then. Replace Hydra with Zest then. Zest has, according to that list, a 68% win percentage in SPL. Zest is Code B. He has never, as far as I can tell, qualified for Code A. How can that be if he has almost 70% win percentage in the most prestigious team league?
Light said it before. Zest is PvP sniper and got most of his wins from PvP. And just because one of the top players in Proleague isn't in GSL doesn't make Proleague invalid. DRG couldn't qualify for 3 seasons after he was shown to be the king of GSTL.
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors.
I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense.
(although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players)
Lichter. Dont waste your time. It's so blantantly clear he is completely sour towards the Kespa players. I'm sure youve noticed it.
I don't think he's angry at Kespa players. I just think that he has formulated his opinion in a flawed manner. Because I more or less agree with his conclusion, that Flash's ranking is a bit inflated (but not by much), and that Fantasy and JangBi are not surefire Top 10s yet. But it's not because Proleague is a best of one. Consistency in a best of one--where volatility is higher--is more difficult, hence requiring greater skill. It's because the number of Proleague games--the amount of games that we can scrutinize and the amount of games that can impress us--can (can, because there is only a possibility of it) inflate our opinion of certain players. They play much more games than a lot of Esf pros who only have WCS and GSTL (lol). Since the sample size of a lot of Esf pros is so small, it becomes more difficult to argue their inclusion on the rankings (smaller sample size, greater variance). First dismantled Fantasy, but does that make him better than 7th? Difficult to argue because of the small sample size. The presence of Proleague games makes for a larger sample size for Kespa players, and that's how Proleague can skew these rankings. It's not a matter of format, quality of games or opponents, or anything like that. It's simply a sampling size problem for a lot of other pros.
How can he be a PvP sniper if you do not know your opponent's race? It could work in the All-Kill situation which allows for snipers. I don't understand how he plays exclusively PvP in the standard SPL format. Although when I've tuned into SPL on the rare occasion, it seems to always be a PvP. So maybe that has something to do with it.
On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote: yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results. Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results. Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results. Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too!
MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal.
I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking.
On July 04 2013 13:38 Megiddosc wrote: How can he be a PvP sniper if you do not know your opponent's race? It could work in the All-Kill situation which allows for snipers. I don't understand how he plays exclusively PvP in the standard SPL format. Although when I've tuned into SPL on the rare occasion, it seems to always be a PvP. So maybe that has something to do with it.
Many maps in Proleague (Akilon Wastes, Naro Station, Fighting Spirit v1) are P favored so PvPs happen quite a lot. It's pretty easy for KT to seed so that Zest always gets a PvP.
On July 04 2013 05:03 Nerchio wrote: I was scrolling down the list to see my nickname on the 1st place only to see my nickname mistaken? How can you spell "Nerchio" as INnoVation
Common mistake. <3
On July 04 2013 06:07 Misacampo wrote: I wonder why LIQUID taeja placed above ALLIANCE naniwa despite naniwa's WAY superior results in the past month.
Power ranking is not 100% result driven. In BW you could have a slumping Flash (by slumping I mean 70 percent win rate) still be at number 1 simply because he is still the superior player.
Fantasy's production tab would often be empty sometimes for literally a minute at a time while he's off doing god knows what, and yet he would go on to win both these games. It's an ability that makes us all question what we're doing wrong in our games and why we're not playing at the top of the top.
Yea, because you totally have better macro than Fantasy I'm sure.
I hope you aren't serious dude. Writer is just making a point of Fantasy's ability to win despite floating at times >.>
On July 04 2013 13:38 Megiddosc wrote: How can he be a PvP sniper if you do not know your opponent's race? It could work in the All-Kill situation which allows for snipers. I don't understand how he plays exclusively PvP in the standard SPL format. Although when I've tuned into SPL on the rare occasion, it seems to always be a PvP. So maybe that has something to do with it.
According to your link, P7ZestWooki has played 24 PvPs, and 13 combined vTZ. He sucks at vT and is average at vZ.
Proleague is dominated by Protoss, so it isn't hard to chance on a PvP. Also, some maps are 'favored' for certain races, so those races get played on those maps more often. You also know the probably lineups of your opponent, and their map preferences (historically), so it becomes possible to map pick intelligently to get your preferred matchup.
And yeah, I think the volume of games being played definitely skews it in KeSPA's favor. Thanks for vocalizing that aspect much better than I could lichter.
On July 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: If it's more likely to have an upset in a Bo1, doesn't that make players who can win Bo1s consistently even better since they don't lose in a format that's likely to produce an upset (or, in a format that they are less favored in)?'
My point boils to this, since you worded it this way.
Hydra is listed here as the 5th best player in Proleague. Hydra is in code B. He lost last season in Code A to Avenge.
Hydra is great at performing a single build on a single map but he can't pull out wins otherwise. So should I be impressed with Hydra's ability to somewhat consistently win Bo1s if he cannot seem to perform well outside of that circumstance?
In terms of KeSPA players, I have really been impressed with those who are on top of this list. But the others haven't done much to impress me, including Fantasy and Jangbi.
That liquipedia page isn't updated, actually. And if you look at win percentages, Hydra is only slightly better than average. The list is ordered by number of wins, and not a combination of number of wins and win percentage. Players don't play the same number of games because some matches don't get played (in 4-0s, 4-1s and 4-2s). Hydra has also sucked massive zergballs in HoTS. TL writers didn't just look at that list and decide who is good. They look at recent results, quality of opponents, quality of games, and I'm sure a bunch of x factors.
I don't agree Fantasy is Top 10. JangBi is arguable. But your insistence that PL shouldn't count for much because it is Bo1 makes little sense.
(although I agree that the amount of PL games played--they basically play more televised games than anyone else--inflates the record and hype of some players)
Lichter. Dont waste your time. It's so blantantly clear he is completely sour towards the Kespa players. I'm sure youve noticed it.
I don't think he's angry at Kespa players. I just think that he has formulated his opinion in a flawed manner. Because I more or less agree with his conclusion, that Flash's ranking is a bit inflated (but not by much), and that Fantasy and JangBi are not surefire Top 10s yet. But it's not because Proleague is a best of one. Consistency in a best of one--where volatility is higher--is more difficult, hence requiring greater skill. It's because the number of Proleague games--the amount of games that we can scrutinize and the amount of games that can impress us--can (can, because there is only a possibility of it) inflate our opinion of certain players. They play much more games than a lot of Esf pros who only have WCS and GSTL (lol). Since the sample size of a lot of Esf pros is so small, it becomes more difficult to argue their inclusion on the rankings (smaller sample size, greater variance). First dismantled Fantasy, but does that make him better than 7th? Difficult to argue because of the small sample size. The presence of Proleague games makes for a larger sample size for Kespa players, and that's how Proleague can skew these rankings. It's not a matter of format, quality of games or opponents, or anything like that. It's simply a sampling size problem for a lot of other pros.
Sample size is a problem. It is sad really how the GSTL is set up, teams play two matches at most per month. unsure about #3 spot but Flash is in the same tier as SK/Inno and sHy, in another thread, I posted his achivements thus far in HoTS and hes one of the more consistent players of them all. As to Jangbi, of course I do love jangbang so my opinion is skewered to favor him but dissecting his overall results through the month of June, its hard to argue against it. Fantasy, agreed is a question mark for me. He's inconsistent but his results show happier days.
My backlash at the Kespa comment currently resides that he has proven absolutely no circumstantial evidence to back up his point and when he has, he's literally cherry picked only the ones that favor him instead of showing the entire picture.
On July 04 2013 13:42 Megiddosc wrote: Thanks for the clarification monk.
And yeah, I think the volume of games being played definitely skews it in KeSPA's favor. Thanks for vocalizing that aspect much better than I could lichter.
Yes but you shouldn't blame Proleague or the players for it. Neither should you fault the writer's for favoring players who have played more games. It's a much safer bet to include someone who has played 10 good games over someone who has played 5 good games. It's just the nature of how things are right now that Kespa players get to play more games. Sample sizes are important when trying to come up with a list like this, and the fact is we are more certain of the skill level of Kespa players because we see more of their televised games. Some Esf players might be better, but because they play so few games it is difficult to tell for certain.
On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote: yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results. Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results. Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results. Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too!
MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal.
I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking.
It has mostly to do with sample size. Not enough data to suggest First is deserving of a spot but his recent results are sure solidifying his case. Also of course, I was being sarcastic A better example to better exemplify what the argument would be Soulkey should be a #2 palyer because he lost to a SKT T1 B-teamer in Labyrinth. A guy who has never been on the A-team and shown his face in the SPL.
Well, there's 6 ESF players in the top 16 of OSL. So they're definitely not trailing KeSPA by much. It'd be 9-7 if you recall that Parting spent the majority of his SC2 career on StarTale and isn't an elephant. Not quite the big disparity yet that some seem to already have set in their mind.
On July 04 2013 13:51 Megiddosc wrote: Well, there's 6 ESF players in the top 16 of OSL. So they're definitely not trailing KeSPA by much. It'd be 9-7 if you recall that Parting spent the majority of his SC2 career on StarTale and isn't an elephant. Not quite the big disparity yet that some seem to already have set in their mind.
I don't care, at all, about some supposed Esf vs Kespa rivalry. To me it is all about sample size. If GSTL were a more serious and regular tournament (and not always all-kill), I'm certain it would boost the ratings of a lot of Esf players.
I doubt it. I'm sure the writers would just consider them "mediocre" players like how Curious was described. Despite there not being much difference between the strength of KeSPA/ESF as a whole, the ESF players, despite some being long-time Code S players will be diminished.
Look at that, Mvp 8th player on Powerrank and highest placing esf player. Its starting to look like a Brood war power rank with all these kespa pros there.
On July 04 2013 14:01 mnck wrote: Look at that, Mvp 8th player on Powerrank and highest placing esf player. Its starting to look like a Brood war power rank with all these kespa pros there.
Still..it feels awkward to have a power ranking without jaedong, stork and bisu somewhere in the mix... Jaedong and Bisu has some possibility to get to the top 10 while Stork looks completely done as a player or..he needs a breath of fresh air. Symbol also is one of the most underrated players in SC2, no one ever gives him credit although he goes far in all of his tournaments.
It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results.
On July 04 2013 14:01 mnck wrote: Look at that, Mvp 8th player on Powerrank and highest placing esf player. Its starting to look like a Brood war power rank with all these kespa pros there.
Still..it feels awkward to have a power ranking without jaedong, stork and bisu somewhere in the mix... Jaedong and Bisu has some possibility to get to the top 10 while Stork looks completely done as a player or..he needs a breath of fresh air. Symbol also is one of the most underrated players in SC2, no one ever gives him credit although he goes far in all of his tournaments.
Symbol uses mostly trickery and weird strats in his recent runs, thus there is no aweness factor in his play.
On July 04 2013 13:58 Megiddosc wrote: I doubt it. I'm sure the writers would just consider them "mediocre" players like how Curious was described. Despite there not being much difference between the strength of KeSPA/ESF as a whole, the ESF players, despite some being long-time Code S players will be diminished.
Not necessarily. Curious HAS been pretty mediocre in HotS.
On July 04 2013 14:05 RenSC2 wrote: It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results.
Aigulac takes into consideration over the course of HoTS and not over the course of one month. That's why its skewered in that sense. Life's #2 because despite his drought, his Elo peak was overwhelmingly high. Jangbi's been a pretty "meh" player up until the past month and a half where he's been a monster. Weird to see that Soulkey isnt on that list though.
On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote: yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results. Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results. Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results. Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too!
MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal.
I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking.
It has mostly to do with sample size. Not enough data to suggest First is deserving of a spot but his recent results are sure solidifying his case. Also of course, I was being sarcastic A better example to better exemplify what the argument would be Soulkey should be a #2 palyer because he lost to a SKT T1 B-teamer in Labyrinth. A guy who has never been on the A-team and shown his face in the SPL.
I´m aware of that problem, I mentioned it as well in the other post. I just don´t think, that it is a soulution to just ignore everyone with smaller sample sizes.The way, the ranking currently is done, it pretty much relies on PL with OSL setting a few nuances. And that is just a wrong way to do it, since
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking,
2) WCS EU/NA players are getting almost no chance to make it far in there. Keep in mind, that the season finals were in this month as well, in which ForGG topped the goup with sOs in it and MVP was one map away of probably taking the tournament (sOs did´nt win a PvT for 2 month in the period before that and lost to Maru shortly after). It resulted in MVP being ranked nr.8 and ForGG do´nt being mentioned.
However, I have to go now, maybe I´ll be back later.
On July 04 2013 13:25 LighT. wrote: yea, MVP obviously shouldnt be in Top 10, he lost to Innovation 3-2. Results. Innovation is obviously not top 10, he lost 3-4 to Soulkey. Results. Sjow is obviously #1 player, he beat Life 2-1. Results. Hey look ma, I can cherry pick results too!
MVP and Innovation lost to the number 1and 2 in the world respectively. The is a difference between losing to Innovation 3-2in the semi finals at the wolrd WCS finals and losing to LzGamer 2-0 in the open bracket of an MLG (made up example, did´nt happen to anyone here). Losses are´nt equal.
I think this list is pretty kespa-biased, which is´nt really a surprise, since we see them a lot more often in PL, then we see the ESF-guys in GSTL. Still, I have to wonder, why players like Supernova (2-0 against Parting/Squirtle) or First (2-0 against Leenock/RorO) arent even mentioned, while players that droped out in the ro32 don´t really get affected by that in the ranking.
It has mostly to do with sample size. Not enough data to suggest First is deserving of a spot but his recent results are sure solidifying his case. Also of course, I was being sarcastic A better example to better exemplify what the argument would be Soulkey should be a #2 palyer because he lost to a SKT T1 B-teamer in Labyrinth. A guy who has never been on the A-team and shown his face in the SPL.
I´m aware of that problem, I mentioned it as well in the other post. I just don´t think, that it is a soulution to just ignore everyone with smaller sample sizes.The way, the ranking currently is done, it pretty much relies on PL with OSL setting a few nuances. And that is just a wrong way to do it, since
1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking,
2) WCS EU/NA players are getting almost no chance to make it far in there. Keep in mind, that the season finals were in this month as well, in which ForGG topped the goup with sOs in it and MVP was one map away of probably taking the tournament (sOs did´nt win a PvT for 2 month in the period before that and lost to Maru shortly after). It resulted in MVP being ranked nr.8 and ForGG do´nt being mentioned.
However, I have to go now, maybe I´ll be back later.
Good point PL and GSTL are both about to end in a month or so, so should be interesting what happens when both are said and done. I guess that's the incentive to play in WCS KR, more recognition for TL Power rankings
On July 04 2013 11:42 kolz wrote: In what world are Taeja and Polt better than Symbol, PartinG and RorO?
Taeja and Polt skill wise are much, much better than Symbol, Parting and Roro. Taeja had a sick run last WoL GSL (defeated Soulkey) when no terran was able to win anything. I believe he can be as good as Innovation if he can work on his current TvT. Polt is a super smart player, great at preparation, has sick TvP, top level micro and positioning. Both of them did very well at the end of WoL, and I greatly admire those terran players who did well at the end of WoL. It is the most definitive proof that the skill is there.
On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote: 1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking.
This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
On July 04 2013 14:05 RenSC2 wrote: It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results.
I'm pretty sure that nobody actually thinks that the Aligulac top ten is realistic in terms of actual strength. Half the players on there have artificially boosted ratings from playing the majority of their games against foreigners. Do you actually think that Polt, Violet and Hyun are top 6 in the world? And that Soulkey not only isn't in the top 10, but is behind Lucifron and San?
On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote: 1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking.
This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
On July 04 2013 14:05 RenSC2 wrote: It's interesting when you go to Aligulac.com, a purely mathematical rating, only 3 of the top 10 are KESPA. For those that want to make excuses for KESPA players, Innovation still came out first, so make sure you're able to explain his first place finish while making excuses for everyone else in KESPA.
On that list, Fantasy is #95 while First is #16.
MVP #3, Polt #4, HyuN #6. Only excuse I can think of is that the list takes past results into account too much (Life still #2), but why would you throw out May results when making a June Power Rank? It's recent enough that skills won't have changed that much and seems very relevant until the sample size is large enough to toss it and nobody, not even PLers, have a large enough sample size to toss May results.
I'm pretty sure that nobody actually thinks that the Aligulac top ten is realistic in terms of actual strength. Half the players on there have artificially boosted ratings from playing the majority of their games against foreigners. Do you actually think that Polt, Violet and Hyun are top 6 in the world? And that Soulkey not only isn't in the top 10, but is behind Lucifron and San?
San #1 ELO, so gosu
If you read aligulac's disclaimer, they say that the ratings difference between the top players isn't statistically significant; they're all close to 50/50 with each other and only go up and down the list due to hot and cold streaks.
But yeah foreigner stomping needs to get nerfed a little
On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote: 1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking.
This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
Maybe look at the actual games instead of only at results?
On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote: 1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking.
This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
Maybe look at the actual games instead of only at results?
I do, what's your point? You look good when you play worse players. Mvp came back from 5 scv against Tefel. That was AMAZING right?
On July 04 2013 05:20 digmouse wrote: To all that thinks Life should be in the Top 10, one reason he is playing so bad atm is he plays a lot of LoL nowadays.
Is this true?
And if it were true - wtf, so you are at the top of the world when new expansion comes, you beat the best players with innovative style and... you just start playing another game? What in the flying fuck. Who does that.
On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote: 1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking.
This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
Maybe look at the actual games instead of only at results?
I do, what's your point? You look good when you play worse players. Mvp came back from 5 scv against Tefel. That was AMAZING right?
Bomber and Keen are both good players who played well in those games. Somebody blundering into a loss isn't the same thing at all. The fact that they're not in this particular top 10 is irrelevant.
On July 04 2013 14:11 Xoronius wrote: 1) PL succes atm gets you a high ranking, even if you completely fail in individual leagues (Jangbi), while a bad PL record does´nt really influnece you negatively either (Rain). The conclusion of this is just, that participating in PL will improve the average of you ranking.
This part isn't really true. You have to really read the writeup to get a better sense at the rationale behind the rankings. Rain's case was special in that he had a really amazing May and thus a #4 ranking in the June rank. In June, all his Proleague loses were justifiable and he looked really amazing in the OSL, in my opinion, the best out of anyone in the Ro32.
To echo some other people in the thread, yes, it's a sample size issue.
That is where you are wrong. Rain has two BO1 wins over Keen & Bomber. Now if that is enough to cancel out all of his PL losses and makes him look the best in Ro32, then Keen & Bomber must be a top tier players. If they are top tier, where are they? Supernova looks the best in Ro32 imo.
He's not wrong, it's his opinion. There's a difference. Supernova did look good in the ro32 but that's also just an opinion. It doesn't really help that the PL sample size is so small.
I loved the WM usage but Flash's build against Fantasy deserved better than a sounding loss imo. I'd argue that Polt deserves an even better spot, such an incredibly smart guy.
On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote: Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol
This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~
It should be obvious now that power rank is Proleague power rank with some consolation places for esf players. Not necessarily bad since PL is the only weekly thing. But the criteria should be clear : We put a lot of weights for matchs in PL in this power rank.
Well I guess this is true, I do find it really weird that ~75% of the ranking values are based on one tournament.
With my job I can never watch proleague, meaning that I have not even seen 50% of the players on this ranking compete in the last month. The other 20% is based on a Bo1 in OSL and then the last 5% of the other ~100 SC2 tournaments that have been happening the last months.
On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote: Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol
This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~
It should be obvious now that power rank is Proleague power rank with some consolation places for esf players. Not necessarily bad since PL is the only weekly thing. But the criteria should be clear : We put a lot of weights for matchs in PL in this power rank.
Well I guess this is true, I do find it really weird that ~75% of the ranking values are based on one tournament.
With my job I can never watch proleague, meaning that I have not even seen 50% of the players on this ranking compete in the last month. The other 20% is based on a Bo1 in OSL and then the last 5% of the other ~100 SC2 tournaments that have been happening the last months.
That seems kind of stupid to me.
While I agree that Proleague influences the rankings too much, it isn't a result of some inherent bias from the writers. The reason PL has a big impact on the rankings is that it is the most regular high level tournament right now. It's not the highest level tournament (that is WCS KR), but it gives us the most number of games that we can use to gauge the level of the players involved. OSL has only started and has only provided a small sample of games, so it is difficult to use that to measure player's skill over the span of the month. It can only contribute so much to how the rankings have been made. But now that we are in the Ro16 with regular Best of 3s, we should see the OSL results factoring a lot more into the Power Rankings. There aren't many other high level tournaments that occurred in June. To suggest that MLG or Dreamhack is of a higher skill than PL is not believable. Only WCS KR, the WCS Grand Finals, (and GSTL if they make it a serious tournament) can be considered an equal or better test of skill than Proleague right now.
10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
So basically the Power Rankings should just be WCS KR and Proleague Rankings. Polt, Mvp and Taeja deserve their spot on the list, and with how soO, Dear and Stats played at MLG, the gap between KeSPA and the rest of the world really isn't that huge.
On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote: Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol
This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~
It should be obvious now that power rank is Proleague power rank with some consolation places for esf players. Not necessarily bad since PL is the only weekly thing. But the criteria should be clear : We put a lot of weights for matchs in PL in this power rank.
Well I guess this is true, I do find it really weird that ~75% of the ranking values are based on one tournament.
With my job I can never watch proleague, meaning that I have not even seen 50% of the players on this ranking compete in the last month. The other 20% is based on a Bo1 in OSL and then the last 5% of the other ~100 SC2 tournaments that have been happening the last months.
That seems kind of stupid to me.
While I agree that Proleague influences the rankings too much, it isn't a result of some inherent bias from the writers. The reason PL has a big impact on the rankings is that it is the most regular high level tournament right now. It's not the highest level tournament (that is WCS KR), but it gives us the most number of games that we can use to gauge the level of the players involved. OSL has only started and has only provided a small sample of games, so it is difficult to use that to measure player's skill over the span of the month. It can only contribute so much to how the rankings have been made. But now that we are in the Ro16 with regular Best of 3s, we should see the OSL results factoring a lot more into the Power Rankings. There aren't many other high level tournaments that occurred in June. To suggest that MLG or Dreamhack is of a higher skill than PL is not believable. Only WCS KR, the WCS Grand Finals, (and GSTL if they make it a serious tournament) can be considered an equal or better test of skill than Proleague right now.
Still it seems weird that ~95% of the ranking is based on tournaments that require you to be living in Korea.
I think this MLG for instance showed that the KESPA players are not necessarily so god-like as people like to think, KESPA have the strongest players in general but still in this MLG their 3 qualified players got beat several times by both different foreigners and ESF players. Maybe something to have in mind before basing 75% of the rankings on a KESPA only tournament...
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
So basically the Power Rankings should just be WCS KR and Proleague Rankings. Polt, Mvp and Taeja deserve their spot on the list, and with how soO, Dear and Stats played at MLG, the gap between KeSPA and the rest of the world really isn't that huge.
I don't know man. You guys know how I feel already about special events and Western Tournaments so whateves. What can you do about it. At least they mention Symbol & I guess you guys sort of have to give a nod to Stardust once again. Watchagoingdoaboutit. `\('.')/`
On July 04 2013 05:31 Scville wrote: Azubu Symbol ''...In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
''In the OSL Ro32, though he eventually made it through, it was the same story as last month, as he only beat mediocre players in ZvZ to do so.''
I'm pretty sure those mediocre code s players are better than TLO and Snute.
And why the fuck MVP is only rank 8? Seriously he almost defeated Innovation in a bo5 and Jangbi is rank6 because he won some bo1? Oh my god
And parting isn't in top 10 anymore because he lost a bo1 against Supernova? Jesus Christ.
And while Parting plays against 100x harder opponents and is still 6-4, Taeja is in top 10 because he barely won against TLO and Snute.
Such a joke.
You're taking this waaaaaaay to seriously lol
This has no effect on anything, it's just for fun. Stop freaking out and learn to accept the opinions of others~
It should be obvious now that power rank is Proleague power rank with some consolation places for esf players. Not necessarily bad since PL is the only weekly thing. But the criteria should be clear : We put a lot of weights for matchs in PL in this power rank.
Well I guess this is true, I do find it really weird that ~75% of the ranking values are based on one tournament.
With my job I can never watch proleague, meaning that I have not even seen 50% of the players on this ranking compete in the last month. The other 20% is based on a Bo1 in OSL and then the last 5% of the other ~100 SC2 tournaments that have been happening the last months.
That seems kind of stupid to me.
While I agree that Proleague influences the rankings too much, it isn't a result of some inherent bias from the writers. The reason PL has a big impact on the rankings is that it is the most regular high level tournament right now. It's not the highest level tournament (that is WCS KR), but it gives us the most number of games that we can use to gauge the level of the players involved. OSL has only started and has only provided a small sample of games, so it is difficult to use that to measure player's skill over the span of the month. It can only contribute so much to how the rankings have been made. But now that we are in the Ro16 with regular Best of 3s, we should see the OSL results factoring a lot more into the Power Rankings. There aren't many other high level tournaments that occurred in June. To suggest that MLG or Dreamhack is of a higher skill than PL is not believable. Only WCS KR, the WCS Grand Finals, (and GSTL if they make it a serious tournament) can be considered an equal or better test of skill than Proleague right now.
Still it seems weird that ~95% of the ranking is based on tournaments that require you to be living in Korea.
I think this MLG for instance showed that the KESPA players are not necessarily so god-like as people like to think, KESPA have the strongest players in general but still in this MLG their 3 qualified players got beat several times by both different foreigners and ESF players. Maybe something to have in mind before basing 75% of the rankings on a KESPA only tournament...
How is that at all weird? Let's throw random numbers shall we? 95% of the competition is in Korea. Watchoogoingtodoaboutit. `\('.')/' Your talking about Soo, Stats and Dear as if they won any individual tournaments before let alone competed overseas. Nah man, there are a lot of other variables in play and I'd say the Western Koreans or anyone with experience at Western LANs should be more used to it. Other than Code B and the first time they took a stab at Courage in BW. They're just not used to that kind of format. Shits bound to happen. MLGs, HSC's are a different cup of tea and should be treated as such. It's kind of funny because my argument supporting your behalf would be, "well, shit. There just weren't that many players let alone landmines in the last MLG for them." It's like stepping back in time when a certain few individuals went far. That wasn't a very good performance by the KeSPA boys. No denying it. They flunked the test. Next time I'd like to see more players & better results.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
When you consider the opportunities Mvp's actually had to play recently, which is literally only WCS EU, WCS Finals, and a go4sc2 cup, I'd say he's pretty much made the most out of them.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Why do some people keep pretending that Polt won MLG against foreigners only? There were 3-4 Kespa players, who got there after winning a stacked Kespa qualifier (that many Kespa fans said "might as well replace the whole tournament " lololol), and those players were pooped on by either Polt or another low-level foreigner from Sweden. Why do people like to ignore data when it goes against their bias?
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
When you consider the opportunities Mvp's actually had to play recently, which is literally only WCS EU, WCS Finals, and a go4sc2 cup, I'd say he's pretty much made the most out of them.
That's sort of my point. Way, way, way too limited & that's why it's hard to measure him. I need to see a lot more from him against top level competition. The games against Innovation wasn't enough for me. I don't even feel like talking about the forGG games or group stage of that WCS Finals either. I have serious doubts.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Why do some people keep pretending that Polt won MLG against foreigners only? There were 3-4 Kespa players, who got there after winning a stacked Kespa qualifier (that many Kespa fans said "might as well replace the whole tournament " lololol), and those players were pooped on by either Polt or another low-level foreigner from Sweden. Why do people like to ignore data when it goes against their bias?
Small sample; not as many landmines; like I said earlier Soo, Stats, Dear have a bad track record when it comes to individual tournaments; these guys don't travel overseas; foreign format to them; etc. At the end of the day the Koreans on Western teams have a slight advantage when it comes to these type of experiences. The other guys are sort of oblivious to it. This MLG had a very retro feel to it. Nothing like the last few and it's a very small sample size like I said before.
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
All the players that Mvp beat in WCS Finals (Ryung, Kangho, forGG) are way better than your average Kespa players, which again are the source of most wins (hence power rank points) for your favorite Kespa players (Flash, Rain, Fantasy etc). That and the close series with Innovation.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
All the players that Mvp beat in WCS Finals (Ryung, Kangho, forGG) are way better than your average Kespa players, which again are the source of most wins (hence power rank points) for your favorite Kespa players (Flash, Rain, Fantasy etc). That and the close series with Innovation.
forGG? no sir. No, no, no. lol Ryung has been lighting it up in GSTL and LosirA is sort of having a resurgence but please don't try to sell me that can of worms when it comes to forGG.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
All about more games being played buddy. Unfortunately the GSTL always had a lackluster format when it comes down to the amount of players you'll see involved. At the end of the day they just don't give us enough looks at their players. I barely get to see anything from the GSTL. Whereas, I get Pro League a ridiculous amount.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
Why are you debating the list ? He was making a point that if we are going to be so Kespa biased, might as well focus only on PL.
It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
All the players that Mvp beat in WCS Finals (Ryung, Kangho, forGG) are way better than your average Kespa players, which again are the source of most wins (hence power rank points) for your favorite Kespa players (Flash, Rain, Fantasy etc). That and the close series with Innovation.
forGG? no sir. No, no, no. lol Ryung has been lighting it up in GSTL and LosirA is sort of having a resurgence but please don't try to sell me that can of worms when it comes to forGG.
What's wrong with forGG ? Didn't he top his WCS group, beating sOs and Hero?
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
The list is written by a few passionate and experienced guys. However, there are enough of those around that you could ask others (just pick 3 foreign pros at will) and they would produce a different list.
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
All the players that Mvp beat in WCS Finals (Ryung, Kangho, forGG) are way better than your average Kespa players, which again are the source of most wins (hence power rank points) for your favorite Kespa players (Flash, Rain, Fantasy etc). That and the close series with Innovation.
forGG? no sir. No, no, no. lol Ryung has been lighting it up in GSTL and LosirA is sort of having a resurgence but please don't try to sell me that can of worms when it comes to forGG.
What's wrong with forGG ? Didn't he top his WCS group, beating sOs and Hero?
Remember what I said about sample size? forGG is no better than your average KeSPA player. In PL I can see him as a 50-50 player tops. As for the WCS Finals. It leaves way more to be desired man, but if you want to talk sample size. Sure,forGG beat those guys & MVP got through his group by the skin of his teeth. Sometimes it helps to have a little lady luck on your side.
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
When you've been around long enough and used to manage a team. You sort of get an idea of where your players will fit in your roster. As I just wrote, I can see forGG winning roughly fifty percent of his matches if I were to throw him into PL right now. Not much more than that. That's between all match-ups, which isn't that bad because it would mean he would be a regular but if you look at the current stats. That means he would be pretty average KeSPA player. ;/
MLG is a weekend event where players play a lot of games in a row. It just doesn't seem like the same strict skill test that PL has, where players have a long time to prepare with their team. It eliminates a lot of other factors that weekend events have like fatigue, jetlag, or scouting your opponents builds from earlier in the tournament.
Very much agree with Jangbi, he is not only playing really well, but has the collected, clutch personality that makes him a true ace player like Flash. Guy´s a star.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June.
I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out.
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion.
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
The uncertainty can also be turned around the other direction. How certain are we that if Jangbi or Fantasy were put in Taeja's and Polt's tournament they would win?
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
The uncertainty can also be turned around the other direction. How certain are we that if Jangbi or Fantasy were put in Taeja's and Polt's tournament they would win?
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
The uncertainty can also be turned around the other direction. How certain are we that if Jangbi or Fantasy were put in Taeja's and Polt's tournament they would win?
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
All the players that Mvp beat in WCS Finals (Ryung, Kangho, forGG) are way better than your average Kespa players, which again are the source of most wins (hence power rank points) for your favorite Kespa players (Flash, Rain, Fantasy etc). That and the close series with Innovation.
forGG? no sir. No, no, no. lol Ryung has been lighting it up in GSTL and LosirA is sort of having a resurgence but please don't try to sell me that can of worms when it comes to forGG.
What's wrong with forGG ? Didn't he top his WCS group, beating sOs and Hero?
Remember what I said about sample size? forGG is no better than your average KeSPA player. In PL I can see him as a 50-50 player tops. As for the WCS Finals. It leaves way more to be desired man, but if you want to talk sample size. Sure,forGG beat those guys & MVP got through his group by the skin of his teeth. Sometimes it helps to have a little lady luck on your side.
Well mvp does that very often. You can say luck, someone else can say it is mental toughness. He also showed that in the Innovation series. This is another thing that PL games can't measure.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June.
I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out.
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion.
My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote: Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!!
this explains the meaning of life^
I'm still not entirely sold on MVP.
All the players that Mvp beat in WCS Finals (Ryung, Kangho, forGG) are way better than your average Kespa players, which again are the source of most wins (hence power rank points) for your favorite Kespa players (Flash, Rain, Fantasy etc). That and the close series with Innovation.
forGG? no sir. No, no, no. lol Ryung has been lighting it up in GSTL and LosirA is sort of having a resurgence but please don't try to sell me that can of worms when it comes to forGG.
What's wrong with forGG ? Didn't he top his WCS group, beating sOs and Hero?
Remember what I said about sample size? forGG is no better than your average KeSPA player. In PL I can see him as a 50-50 player tops. As for the WCS Finals. It leaves way more to be desired man, but if you want to talk sample size. Sure,forGG beat those guys & MVP got through his group by the skin of his teeth. Sometimes it helps to have a little lady luck on your side.
Well mvp does that very often. You can say luck, someone else can say it is mental toughness. He also showed that in the Innovation series. This is another thing that PL games can't measure.
Uh... Pro League can measure mental toughness very well bud. There's a lot of preparation involved. You should see some of the old incarnations of it where you don't know who your facing other than the Ace match and all that jazz. I've seen player breakdown and crumble. There's a lot of psychology involved and these players meet often. Tons of rivalries; however, having a really good PL record doesn't guarantee individual results as we've seen many times. Some say PL gives the players more focus especially when they take that early exit in Challenger/Survivor/Dual League/qualifiers/etc. because they got knocked out and it reinvigorates them to do well in PL. There's a lot of emphasis on it regardless, but I assure you these players do feel a lot of pressure. Look at what happened to my boy Sea by the end of the BW PL. He was crushed.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June.
I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out.
On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion.
My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played.
A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now.
Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June.
I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out.
On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion.
My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
Goes back to our data man. Ofc he wouldn't receive as much praise because his skills wouldn't be on display. When you're constantly battling against top end opponents like he is and beating them in convincing fashion? It says a lot about the player. At the end of the day, more games against highly regarded competition is going to look a lot better. Nothing wrong with having more information and I'm at the point where I want more information coming from everyone else. I don't have it now, do I?
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
On July 04 2013 17:55 Littlesheep wrote: Wow... Its like overnight ALL the top players are Kespa players.
If you live on Venus, then yes it happened overnight
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote: lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
More like Best Kespa > Best Esf > Mid Esf > Mid Kespa > Lower Kespa > Lower Esf
Heh - First 2-0 his group in OSL and Rain 2-0 his group in OSL. Arguably First beats harder opponents. On top of that Rain disappointed in Proleague (no excuses) and gets 4th while First is not even mentioned.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote: A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote: lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote: lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
Errr... it takes a lot of time to catch-up man. Goes way beyond the preconceived notions of how the game played out and let's not generalize. We knew there would be a lot more competition once these boys showed up with their track record in RTS.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June.
I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out.
On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion.
My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played.
A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now.
Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology.
I think this is the point where our opinions/trains of thought meet. I agree that one can't fault people for using a Proleague-oriented methodology, and I somewhat understand that trying to extrapolate other players' skills from fewer games can be dangerous (but this is a Power Rank, why not throw caution to the wind!). It just makes me unhappy that we can't try to compensate for the statistical disadvantage a player gets for not playing in Proleague. As I said earlier, I think the PR writers did a good job with their evaluations. I first took issue when people were saying Taeja/Polt/Mvp didn't deserve to be on the list.
On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote: 10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's? 9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered? 8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10. 7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague. 6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10. 5. sOs: Totally agree. 4. Rain: Totally agree 3. Flash: Totally agree. 2. Soulkey: Totally agree. 1. INnoVation: Totally agree.
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June.
I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out.
On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion.
My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played.
A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now.
Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology.
I think this is the point where our opinions/trains of thought meet. I agree that one can't fault people for using a Proleague-oriented methodology, and I somewhat understand that trying to extrapolate other players' skills from fewer games can be dangerous (but this is a Power Rank, why not throw caution to the wind!). It just makes me unhappy that we can't try to compensate for the statistical disadvantage a player gets for not playing in Proleague. As I said earlier, I think the PR writers did a good job with their evaluations. I first took issue when people were saying Taeja/Polt/Mvp didn't deserve to be on the list.
I can't think of a way to compensate for it though. You can't really extrapolate data like that because smaller samples are more volatile. The only real way to even out the field is for a unified Proleague.
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional.
Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1.
lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20?
That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs
I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR?
I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June.
I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out.
On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:
On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote: It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league.
The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse.
It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion.
My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played.
A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now.
Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology.
I think this is the point where our opinions/trains of thought meet. I agree that one can't fault people for using a Proleague-oriented methodology, and I somewhat understand that trying to extrapolate other players' skills from fewer games can be dangerous (but this is a Power Rank, why not throw caution to the wind!). It just makes me unhappy that we can't try to compensate for the statistical disadvantage a player gets for not playing in Proleague. As I said earlier, I think the PR writers did a good job with their evaluations. I first took issue when people were saying Taeja/Polt/Mvp didn't deserve to be on the list.
I can't think of a way to compensate for it though. You can't really extrapolate data like that because smaller samples are more volatile. The only real way to even out the field is for a unified Proleague.
Yes, I'll just have to accept things the way they are for right now :[
It´s gonna stay that way: Proleague giving a lot more exposure to their players results in them being on everybody´s minds. Wish they would merge the Korean leagues so we could get the real competition going.
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote: lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
These kinds of obnoxious posts really make me don't want to be a Kespa fan. I used to like Bogus a lot at the end of WoL but not so much now.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote: A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote: lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
These kinds of obnoxious posts really make me don't want to be a Kespa fan. I used to like Bogus a lot at the end of WoL but not so much now.
To be fair, he seems to just be a troll. Rather than representative of fans of KeSPA players.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote: A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
I hope someone's come up with a fancy French name for Forgg. I think it's already happened but I can't remember it.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote: A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
I hope someone's come up with a fancy French name for Forgg. I think it's already happened but I can't remember it.
I´m up for Jean-Baptiste, since his name is Ji Soo and his HPM lends itself to baptism by fire.
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote: lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
These kinds of obnoxious posts really make me don't want to be a Kespa fan. I used to like Bogus a lot at the end of WoL but not so much now.
To be fair, he seems to just be a troll. Rather than representative of fans of KeSPA players.
umm im just responding to all these trolls who are whining that kespa players are being ranked so high and that there is some kind of kespa bias. fact is, kespa players are dominating right now. tournaments in korea should always hold far more weight than tournaments outside korea, since koreans would have to deal with jet lag and other such travel issues that make them perform at less than 100%.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote: A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
I hope someone's come up with a fancy French name for Forgg. I think it's already happened but I can't remember it.
Some going through archives I found this:
On June 07 2013 20:29 Mensol wrote: Jürgen "Mvp" Jong Hyun Pierre "forGG" Delacroix Sam "aLive" Johnson David "Alicia" Wilson
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote: lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
These kinds of obnoxious posts really make me don't want to be a Kespa fan. I used to like Bogus a lot at the end of WoL but not so much now.
To be fair, he seems to just be a troll. Rather than representative of fans of KeSPA players.
umm im just responding to all these trolls who are whining that kespa players are being ranked so high and that there is some kind of kespa bias. fact is, kespa players are dominating right now. tournaments in korea should always hold far more weight than tournaments outside korea, since koreans would have to deal with jet lag and other such travel issues that make them perform at less than 100%.
KeSPA players are definitely performing very well and it looks like they will continue to do so, but a few non-KeSPA players still have a legitimate claim to being top-tier players through their results and gameplay.
On July 04 2013 05:27 Entirety wrote: My opinions obviously differ from Team Liquid's Power Rank, but I would like to give some clearly stated reasons to avoid turning this into the angry ranting of a fanboy.
Mvp should be ranked higher.
First of all, let's look at number 7, FanTaSy. FanTaSy is a great player, no doubt, and he sported a pretty good record this month. However, there is a glaring problem - his macro. Floating 1,000+ minerals when it's not a super lategame scenario is a pretty poor display of skill and suggests that he might have lost against better opponents (after all, Life is slumping hard). If you look at #10 (TaeJa) and #9 (Polt), the Power Rank clearly states that Polt is ahead of TaeJa due to the quality of play - TaeJa plays sloppily, while Polt demolishes his opponents. Now compare Mvp and FanTaSy and you will see that Mvp has superior macro and his playstyle is much less sloppy than FanTaSy.
Now, I admit that wouldn't exactly be enough to consider Mvp to be better than FanTaSy. What really puts him over the edge is FanTaSy's 0-2 loss to First. FanTaSy got outplayed hard in those games. First displayed beautiful PvT and in the process, FanTaSy looked mediocre or even bad - whether that is due to First's skill or FanTaSy's mistakes, I cannot tell. Given the way FanTaSy got outplayed hard by First (who is not even close to Top 10) and his obvious macro flaws, I ask you this: could FanTaSy have gone 2-3 against INnoVation in a close series?
It is harder to argue against JangBi, and I do think JangBi deserves a nice placement. However, I do not believe sOs merits such a high ranking. He got shut out by INnoVation (Mvp's 2-3 trumps sOs's 0-4), and beating his teammate isn't very significant because of how wonky the sOs vs. Soulkey series is - teamkills tend to do that. The Asian Indoors Martial Arts tournament had laughably easy competition (only other contender was the only other Korean, Flash).
Personally, I would rank the players like so:
10. TaeJa 9. Polt 8. FanTaSy 7. sOs 6. Mvp 5. JangBi 4. Flash 3. Rain 2. Soulkey 1. INnoVation
Anyway, both monk's Power Ranking and my own are merely opinions! Please don't be offended.
Would agree with this post the most in the thread.
- Fanta should probably be lower after that OSL series where he got crushed and Anyppi needs a CBNC or special mention only because of he played there. (But that was before the ranking was written, So...)
- I love that you are noticing how beastly Jangbi is. Good call to give him #6 imo.
No way Polt and Taeja should be in the top ten. Who did Polt even have to beat to win that MLG? Naniwa, Dear and Hyun; that's weaker than most WCS korea ro32 groups. And his last tournament Stockholm he got knocked out in groups by HuK and Grubby? Meanwhile players making consistent ro16+ korea (PartinG, Bomber, etc) in the toughest competition get no mentions...
Polt had a pretty easy run at MLG. And the last series against Hyun he almost lost, while the last game was just them both being nervous and doing basic mistakes and whoever got lucky won. And let's not forget Polt performance before which wasn't good at all. I'd say there's dozens of players who deserve that spot more than polt.
if taeja made it to top 10 .. how the hell did jaedong not make it ?! ? although JvP still sucks but he beated good players(not rain level) .. but his zvz is top notch .. and his zvt is now scary .. he even killed taeja in a convincing way .. also gumiho .. and a couple of other good terrans(not flash/innovation level)
On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote: A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
I hope someone's come up with a fancy French name for Forgg. I think it's already happened but I can't remember it.
On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote: A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
I hope someone's come up with a fancy French name for Forgg. I think it's already happened but I can't remember it.
I think the fact that Symbol looks like the most constant kr player for a year (every time in code S, and 4 time in the RO8 at least) should make him in this top10 'cause there's no other KR player who's so constant in his result.
Hmmm. Jürgen should at least be one place above Fantasy, if not slightly higher. I cant see him being dismantled by any player like Fantasy was against First. And he played way better than I expected against Innovation. Flash couldn't deliver. Mvp is always strong when odds are against him.
And yes I am Mvp fanboy, but seriously, who doesn't want that Mvp from early WoL days back?
On July 05 2013 03:06 Asarha wrote: I think the fact that Symbol looks like the most constant kr player for a year (every time in code S, and 4 time in the RO8 at least) should make him in this top10 'cause there's no other KR player who's so constant in his result.
His consistency in GSL reminds me of Parting. In fact, checking Liquipedia shows that Symbol has had even better results on average in GSL than Parting has, though he hasn't been in Code S for as long.
If you look at his results, they're pretty insane. In one and a half year, he was GSL: Code A ro24, and then only code S, RO8, RO8, RO16, 2nd, RO4, and now RO16 in the current GSL. Ironsquid: 2nd & RO16 MLG: RO40, 2nd, RO12, IPL: RO6 HSC: 2nd
He's not a bonjwa like "I'm gonna win", but he's always going far.
And you're right, Parting has a pretty good results in GSL. I think we should try to check wich player are consistent, 'cause I'm tired of all these "OMG HE'S SO GOOD" who disappear 4month later. (hello Dongraegu, Jakji, Seed, Life)
Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
On July 05 2013 05:20 Sevre wrote: Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
On July 05 2013 05:20 Sevre wrote: Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
Oh really? lol.
Even though the level of play in OSL and Proleague is much higher than in HSC or MLG, he has a point in that actually winning events, going to the end and finishing the job, does take a skill in itself.
On July 05 2013 05:20 Sevre wrote: Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
Oh really? lol.
Even though the level of play in OSL and Proleague is much higher than in HSC or MLG, he has a point in that actually winning events, going to the end and finishing the job, does take a skill in itself.
There has to be points for actually winning some tournament. And the points has to be higher than a couple of wins here and there in PL.
On July 05 2013 05:20 Sevre wrote: Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
Oh really? lol.
Even though the level of play in OSL and Proleague is much higher than in HSC or MLG, he has a point in that actually winning events, going to the end and finishing the job, does take a skill in itself.
There has to be points for actually winning some tournament. And the points has to be higher than a couple of wins here and there in PL.
A couple? Yeah okay there boss. You guys can keep telling yourselves that all you want. Just like those players only had to go through a couple of landmines in those tournaments, no? hohoho.
On July 05 2013 05:20 Sevre wrote: Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
Oh really? lol.
Even though the level of play in OSL and Proleague is much higher than in HSC or MLG, he has a point in that actually winning events, going to the end and finishing the job, does take a skill in itself.
There has to be points for actually winning some tournament. And the points has to be higher than a couple of wins here and there in PL.
A couple? Yeah okay there boss. You guys can keep telling yourselves that all you want. Just like those players only had to go through a couple of landmines in those tournaments, no? hohoho.
What is measured in a "Power Rank" and how they contribute to said rank are somewhat ambiguous though. How many parts skill, how many parts results, how many parts 'power' or influence or prestige? Because even though MLG and HSC were arguably easier than a few rounds of Proleague (assuming you get difficult draws), MLG and HSC paid out a lot of money. And we all know the relationship between money and power. It's difficult to deny that actually earning money is important in competition, and regardless of difficulty, that giant cheque matters. It's not all about skill, or else we'd call this a Skill Rank. I'd say winning $10,000 for a weekend's work is a lot more notable and 'powerful' than winning a few rounds of Proleague, despite the latter being more difficult. Again how the writers weigh these variables is up to them, but to suggest that winning a few games in Proleague is unequivocally more significant in a Power Rank (that includes fame and fortune) than winning $10,000.. I can't believe that.
On July 05 2013 05:20 Sevre wrote: Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
Oh really? lol.
Even though the level of play in OSL and Proleague is much higher than in HSC or MLG, he has a point in that actually winning events, going to the end and finishing the job, does take a skill in itself.
There has to be points for actually winning some tournament. And the points has to be higher than a couple of wins here and there in PL.
A couple? Yeah okay there boss. You guys can keep telling yourselves that all you want. Just like those players only had to go through a couple of landmines in those tournaments, no? hohoho.
What is measured in a "Power Rank" and how they contribute to said rank are somewhat ambiguous though. How many parts skill, how many parts results, how many parts 'power' or influence or prestige? Because even though MLG and HSC were arguably easier than a few rounds of Proleague (assuming you get difficult draws), MLG and HSC paid out a lot of money. And we all know the relationship between money and power. It's difficult to deny that actually earning money is important in competition, and regardless of difficulty, that giant cheque matters. It's not all about skill, or else we'd call this a Skill Rank. I'd say winning $10,000 for a weekend's work is a lot more notable and 'powerful' than winning a few rounds of Proleague, despite the latter being more difficult. Again how the writers weigh these variables is up to them, but to suggest that winning a few games in Proleague is unequivocally more significant in a Power Rank (that includes fame and fortune) than winning $10,000.. I can't believe that.
Only reason you can say that now is because there is a stupid amount of things going on whereas in BW there wasn't. Why you think it took them so long just to bring this back in the first place? That's what happens when you have no centralization and all sorts of shit going down. If your an outsider looking in it's pretty difficult to follow. They wouldn't know where to start and every tournament would just confuse them more. In PL they can sort of assume where each player will go. Hence the land of many mirrors and sometimes you get the occassional. Okay, they're going to send out so-and-so here so we'll put you here because you match-up well against them and their race. In this specific case I think it boils down what were you in and how did you fair opposed to exactly how much they're bringing in because lets face it. You won't get everyone under one roof and lookie what I want to see happen. Get everyone under the same roof. Until then we'll always be comparing the stupid tournaments. PL is not only one of the premiere leagues but the players embrace it as such too and we're not just talking about winning a couple pro league matches. We're talking about a lot. I most certainly can when some guys only have several difficult series to go through on their way to what you call a prominent championship. In some cases it's only a few. Sorry Taeja but I don't buy it. It goes back to what I said about playing minesweeper and the different difficulties. They're separate beasts and should be treated as such.
On July 04 2013 05:03 Nerchio wrote: I was scrolling down the list to see my nickname on the 1st place only to see my nickname mistaken? How can you spell "Nerchio" as INnoVation
On July 05 2013 05:20 Sevre wrote: Eh, it's really difficult to comment on these Power Ranks because of the metrics used, I'm not sure if Ro32 OSL results stack up against winning HSC or MLG.
Oh really? lol.
Even though the level of play in OSL and Proleague is much higher than in HSC or MLG, he has a point in that actually winning events, going to the end and finishing the job, does take a skill in itself.
There has to be points for actually winning some tournament. And the points has to be higher than a couple of wins here and there in PL.
A couple? Yeah okay there boss. You guys can keep telling yourselves that all you want. Just like those players only had to go through a couple of landmines in those tournaments, no? hohoho.
What is measured in a "Power Rank" and how they contribute to said rank are somewhat ambiguous though. How many parts skill, how many parts results, how many parts 'power' or influence or prestige? Because even though MLG and HSC were arguably easier than a few rounds of Proleague (assuming you get difficult draws), MLG and HSC paid out a lot of money. And we all know the relationship between money and power. It's difficult to deny that actually earning money is important in competition, and regardless of difficulty, that giant cheque matters. It's not all about skill, or else we'd call this a Skill Rank. I'd say winning $10,000 for a weekend's work is a lot more notable and 'powerful' than winning a few rounds of Proleague, despite the latter being more difficult. Again how the writers weigh these variables is up to them, but to suggest that winning a few games in Proleague is unequivocally more significant in a Power Rank (that includes fame and fortune) than winning $10,000.. I can't believe that.
Only reason you can say that now is because there is a stupid amount of things going on whereas in BW there wasn't. Why you think it took them so long just to bring this back in the first place? That's what happens when you have no centralization and all sorts of shit going down. If your an outsider looking in it's pretty difficult to follow. They wouldn't know where to start and every tournament would just confuse them more. In PL they can sort of assume where each player will go. Hence the land of many mirrors and sometimes you get the occassional. Okay, they're going to send out so-and-so here so we'll put you here because you match-up well against them and their race. In this specific case I think it boils down what were you in and how did you fair opposed to exactly how much they're bringing in because lets face it. You won't get everyone under one roof and lookie what I want to see happen. Get everyone under the same roof. Until then we'll always be comparing the stupid tournaments. PL is not only one of the premiere leagues but the players embrace it as such too and we're not just talking about winning a couple pro league matches. We're talking about a lot. I most certainly can when some guys only have several difficult series to go through on their way to what you call a prominent championship. In some cases it's only a few. Sorry Taeja but I don't buy it. It goes back to what I said about playing minesweeper and the different difficulties. They're separate beasts and should be treated as such.
It wasn't very reasonable to make a Power Rank before Proleague appeared, because you'd basically only get Top 10 from GSL and call it a day. It wouldn't have been a very interesting or debatable thread. GSL was the hardest, had the most money, and had the most prestige. Players who won at MLG, DH, IPL, were usually GSL regulars too such as MMA, MKP, DRG, Mvp, Leenock, etc. There wasn't any point in making a Power Rank during that era.
However, now we have 3 different WCS (of course not weighed equally), Proleague, GSTL, and the weekender tournaments. There is much more going on and with the separation of 'power' (and money), albeit not equally, it makes more sense to have a power rank to consolidate results and ratings.
I'm sure you know by now that I agree that Proleague is far more difficult and arguably shows as much, if not more, skill than an MLG. However you cannot deny the relevance of winning $10,000. As I said this ranking isn't purely based on skill or difficulty of opponents. Winning money matters, and that's why Taeja and Polt are in the rankings. Even if the tournaments were easier, winning that amount of money makes them relevant, notable players during the month of June. This ranking doesn't mean Polt and Taeja are among the Top 10 players based on skill. This just means that in the month of June, they accomplished more, whether that be in results, prizemoney, or prestige.
Edit: Essentially you want the rankings to be more indicative of skill, while I agree with the writers that the rankings should encompass more than just a player's abilities. The many disagreements in this thread boil down to what we think a Power Ranking should be, what it should measure, and the methodology used. You might not think much of winning an MLG, but I am sure the thousands of viewers they had think differently. Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power.
Just sayin', if you weren't in love with Rain he wouldn't be the #4 guy for going 2-5 on the month. He beat two people that aren't even mentioned in this list. Anyone can look good beating weaker players.
The more I think about this month's Power Rank the more I disagree with it. At this moment I think 1 & 2 are ok but everything below is just wrong (either to hi or to low or shouldn't be there at all).
On July 05 2013 17:40 nimdil wrote: The more I think about this month's Power Rank the more I disagree with it. At this moment I think 1 & 2 are ok but everything below is just wrong (either to hi or to low or shouldn't be there at all).
So you think Flash is too high? If he think Soulkey and Innovation are good where they are you must.
Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power.
What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament.
Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan.
I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players.
Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power.
What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament.
Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan.
I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players.
If JangBi had gone to MLG and won it then yes he would rank higher than he is ranked right now. But he didn't go, and he didn't win. We can't make up rankings based on speculations like that. That isn't a Power Rank, that's a Whatever I Want Rank. We can only use the data that we have, which I mentioned also explains why it is justifiable for Proleague to skew results in favor of players participating in Proleague. Saying that "xx player could have won xx tournament" is a useless statement to make because they didn't participate, and they didn't win $10,000. This rank is partially based on facts and data, not hypothetical scenarios.
That MLG is "far more influential to the scene" and that it has some price money are very problematic arguments though. Idra and Stephano in a bo5 for 100 k would bring more money and it would maybe have a bigger "impact on the scene", but is that what we are measuring in the power rank?
On July 05 2013 21:17 Elroi wrote: That MLG is "far more influential to the scene" and that it has some price money are very problematic arguments though. Idra and Stephano in a bo5 for 100 k would bring more money and it would maybe have a bigger "impact on the scene", but is that what we are measuring in the power rank?
An exaggeration does not prove your point effectively. A 'showmatch' between two players, likely online, with a small crowd and not a lot of interested parties will never be as influential as one of the largest LANs in the world, and the largest in North America. MLG is not a difficult tournament compared to WCS Korea, obviously, but it's still an important, widely viewed, and incredibly popular event. A Power Rank encompasses more than just skill and I think this is the point that most people cannot accept. If we go only by "who beat who" then we should just use ELO or Aligulac or overall record for the month and be done with it. A strict and mathematical methodology, however, is very boring and not open to much discussion if the parameters for ranking are as rigid as that. What's the point of writing such an article or making such a ranking? Not much.
Again, Polt and Taeja being in the Top 10 does not mean they are among the Top 10 players in terms of skill. It just means that in the month of June, they accomplished more (earning $10,000 at very popular premier events) than a lot of other players. They won important and widely viewed events. A lot of people have their names in mind because of their success. But because they won easier events, they are only 9th and 10th place on the rankings, which I think is fair. As I have mentioned multiple times in this thread, a Power Rank rates and weighs players based on Results (in tournaments, in prize money, in overall record), Quality of Play (skill), and Difficulty of Opponents. Polt and Taeja had some of the best Results in terms of winnings, but only decent difficulty of opponents and quality of play. That's why they rank worse than Rain, who had a middling June but a high difficulty of opponents and relatively high quality of play.
I think this power rank is pretty accurate for the most part. Fantasy showed some impressive play in the Ro32 and he beat Flash in Proleague. The loss against First doesn't count for this month. Jangbi might be a little high. The only exclusion I was surprised at was Parting. My own rankings just for fun:
1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash 5. Rain 6. MVP 7. Parting 8. Fantasy 9. Polt 10. Jangbi
Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power.
What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament.
Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan.
I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players.
Jangbi was 2-0ed by an out of form MKP in code A, and only got to code S through an easy up and down group. Then he bombed out of code S in Ro32. His individual league is quite mediocre at this point. I think he would just lose to Polt 0-2 if they met in MLG.
Polt winning MLG is far more influential to the scene than JangBi being great in Proleague. And that my friend is a big part of power.
What kind of reasoning is that? If Jangbi had even been in MLG he would have been the heavy favorite to win the whole tournament.
Heavy favorite? Are we doing this now? A player has a good PL run and suddenly he'd be a heavy favorite to win an MLG purely based on that? If Jangbi would have been such a heavy favorite he wouldn't have lost to Dear in the Kespa qualifiers in PvP, especially since Dear proceeded to get 2-0'd by a top foreigner in the same matchup at MLG. And I say this as a pretty big Jangbi fan.
I wouldn't have a problem with saying that Jangbi would be one favorite to win MLG out of a handful of contenders (Polt, Hyun, Hero, etc), but to suggest that he'd have far and away been the favorite to win is wrong, especially considering that Kespa players don't have much experience with MLG's format (tons of games with little prep time in a short time period). Hell, the Kespa qualifiers for MLG were already illustrative of that, with favorites like Innovation and Soulkey losing to low-tier Kespa players.
If JangBi had gone to MLG and won it then yes he would rank higher than he is ranked right now. But he didn't go, and he didn't win. We can't make up rankings based on speculations like that. That isn't a Power Rank, that's a Whatever I Want Rank. We can only use the data that we have, which I mentioned also explains why it is justifiable for Proleague to skew results in favor of players participating in Proleague. Saying that "xx player could have won xx tournament" is a useless statement to make because they didn't participate, and they didn't win $10,000. This rank is partially based on facts and data, not hypothetical scenarios.
I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or if we have a misunderstanding somewhere xD Because you're quoting my post but it sounds like we both share the same opinion.
I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup. I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now.
On July 06 2013 04:25 Dwayn wrote: I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup. I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now.
You do know that Polt won against one of the players that won the qualifiers right?
On July 06 2013 05:31 Dingodile wrote: Innovation and Soulkey top2 is clear. Place 3 to 20 is not clear. In my opinion, it is too early to make power ranking, lets begin in 6months.
Make power rank take results from last 3 months into account. This way we still have a power rank every month, can focus on more notable achievements.
On July 06 2013 04:25 Dwayn wrote: I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup. I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now.
You do know that Polt won against one of the players that won the qualifiers right?
And? One of the qualifiers beat rain, so he obviously must be above him in the power rankings right? Nope, it doesn't work like that.
On July 06 2013 04:25 Dwayn wrote: I love Polt and winning mlg is nice, but that isn't enough to put him in the top10 imo. Winning the KESPA qualifier is a bigger achievement in my book, much tougher lineup. I don't see taeja or polt in the top10 scariest players to face right now.
You do know that Polt won against one of the players that won the qualifiers right?
And? One of the qualifiers beat rain, so he obviously must be above him in the power rankings right? Nope, it doesn't work like that.
So if hypothetically Kespa players always lose when they go to foreign tournaments (hypothetically) . Each loses just two matches because every player except the winner loses exactly two matches in double-elim, hence small sample size. But as long as Kespa players play enough matches against each other, they should still occupy all the spots in PR, right? If somebody now points out that Kespa players always lose in foreign tournaments, you say "but this month each of them only loses two matches, small sample size".
On July 05 2013 21:17 Elroi wrote: That MLG is "far more influential to the scene" and that it has some price money are very problematic arguments though. Idra and Stephano in a bo5 for 100 k would bring more money and it would maybe have a bigger "impact on the scene", but is that what we are measuring in the power rank?
An exaggeration does not prove your point effectively. A 'showmatch' between two players, likely online, with a small crowd and not a lot of interested parties will never be as influential as one of the largest LANs in the world, and the largest in North America. MLG is not a difficult tournament compared to WCS Korea, obviously, but it's still an important, widely viewed, and incredibly popular event. A Power Rank encompasses more than just skill and I think this is the point that most people cannot accept. If we go only by "who beat who" then we should just use ELO or Aligulac or overall record for the month and be done with it. A strict and mathematical methodology, however, is very boring and not open to much discussion if the parameters for ranking are as rigid as that. What's the point of writing such an article or making such a ranking? Not much.
Again, Polt and Taeja being in the Top 10 does not mean they are among the Top 10 players in terms of skill. It just means that in the month of June, they accomplished more (earning $10,000 at very popular premier events) than a lot of other players. They won important and widely viewed events. A lot of people have their names in mind because of their success. But because they won easier events, they are only 9th and 10th place on the rankings, which I think is fair. As I have mentioned multiple times in this thread, a Power Rank rates and weighs players based on Results (in tournaments, in prize money, in overall record), Quality of Play (skill), and Difficulty of Opponents. Polt and Taeja had some of the best Results in terms of winnings, but only decent difficulty of opponents and quality of play. That's why they rank worse than Rain, who had a middling June but a high difficulty of opponents and relatively high quality of play.
That's a good point and I'm not disagreeing with you on this. Winning a weekend tournament shows some important things: that you can perform under pressure, that you're clutch and that you can rely on you're standard play without much preparation for a specific opponent. I thought this ranking was accurate, I was only arguing against people who thought that Polt and Taja should be higher than Jangbi who only won a couple of games in PL...
But I still think that winning money and "impact on the scene" are suspect criteria since so many people follow players that are much worse than the best koreans and since the best koreans participate in very few week end tournaments.
On July 08 2013 06:42 TheUltimateWeapon wrote: Where is Bomber? amazing performance at GSTL defeating First (who crushed Fantasy) and MC, and 2-1 vs Bbyong at OSL
That all happened after this Power Rank was made, as was Fantasy losing to First the way he did. That's why it wasn't included. I'm pretty sure if this was written after the Fantasy-First game, Fantasy would've been slightly lower than he is now.
On July 08 2013 06:42 TheUltimateWeapon wrote: Where is Bomber? amazing performance at GSTL defeating First (who crushed Fantasy) and MC, and 2-1 vs Bbyong at OSL
I'm comfortable with the first 8, but it feels a little awkward tacking on Polt and Taeja at the end for winning Homestory and MLG...but what can you do.
On July 08 2013 06:42 TheUltimateWeapon wrote: Where is Bomber? amazing performance at GSTL defeating First (who crushed Fantasy) and MC, and 2-1 vs Bbyong at OSL
not in proleague, ergo not on the list
Yeah, because Taeja, Polt and MVP play so many games in Proleague. Bomber played four games against Koreans in June, going 2-2. Even against foreigners, he only went 4-2; including a loss to Catz, who is 2-9 against terran.
I don't know if Flash deserves to be 3rd. Too many games I see from him are truly bad, like against Innovation in OSL. I found Rain performing better in the OSL, the games looked much cleaner. But it's a though choice.
On July 08 2013 18:24 Koshi wrote: I don't know if Flash deserves to be 3rd. Too many games I see from him are truly bad, like against Innovation in OSL. I found Rain performing better in the OSL, the games looked much cleaner. But it's a though choice.
One game was a pure build order loss and the other he just made one big miscalculation that cost him the game.
Most of the rankings are good or acceptable to me, however, I just don't see MVP being in 8th place. At the very least, I feel he should have placed 7th or 6th. The "mistakes" of Fantasy should be blatantly obvious that MVP should have placed higher than him because MVP only looses to your top 5 players! His games are virtually flawless, and the only way they can beat him, is when they play at their 110% best! Think about it, when the top players play against MVP, they KNOW they have to bring their A+ game, because he just doesn't make mistakes! The mistakes that Fantasy made would be punished to the max. I just don't see Fantasy being stronger than MVP. Also, dropping down to 5 SCV's, did you actually watch that game? NOBODY would have bet a cent on MVP coming back from that deficit! To begin with, his opponent didn't make mistakes until the end when he started panicking when he realized he had lost the match, MVP just played the most incredible game, going into overdrive and that just goes to show his pedigree! If there was any mistake to be made by his opponent, it's that he underestimated MVP, and I think you do too!
Also, I should have liked to see some mention of MC, even though he's hit a slump, some mention of his current status would have been nice!
On July 08 2013 06:42 TheUltimateWeapon wrote: Where is Bomber? amazing performance at GSTL defeating First (who crushed Fantasy) and MC, and 2-1 vs Bbyong at OSL
not in proleague, ergo not on the list
Yeah, because Taeja, Polt and MVP play so many games in Proleague. Bomber played four games against Koreans in June, going 2-2. Even against foreigners, he only went 4-2; including a loss to Catz, who is 2-9 against terran.
Taeja does play in Proleague and Polt just won a tournament. Plus MVP did really well in the season finals.
On July 08 2013 06:42 TheUltimateWeapon wrote: Where is Bomber? amazing performance at GSTL defeating First (who crushed Fantasy) and MC, and 2-1 vs Bbyong at OSL
That all happened after this Power Rank was made, as was Fantasy losing to First the way he did. That's why it wasn't included. I'm pretty sure if this was written after the Fantasy-First game, Fantasy would've been slightly lower than he is now.
Perhaps. He also had a few big wins in PL including that ridiculous comeback against a certain Protoss on that list. Good thing you boys and gals will be seeing it updated every month so stay tuned.
On July 08 2013 06:42 TheUltimateWeapon wrote: Where is Bomber? amazing performance at GSTL defeating First (who crushed Fantasy) and MC, and 2-1 vs Bbyong at OSL
We can't afford to place that much trust in Bomber, but we love him all the same.
On July 08 2013 06:42 TheUltimateWeapon wrote: Where is Bomber? amazing performance at GSTL defeating First (who crushed Fantasy) and MC, and 2-1 vs Bbyong at OSL
not in proleague, ergo not on the list
Yeah, because Taeja, Polt and MVP play so many games in Proleague. Bomber played four games against Koreans in June, going 2-2. Even against foreigners, he only went 4-2; including a loss to Catz, who is 2-9 against terran.
Taeja does play in Proleague and Polt just won a tournament. Plus MVP did really well in the season finals.
In May and June combined, Taeja played three games in Proleague, going 1-2. Wait, so what you're saying is that if people show good results, they can be on the power rank regardless of if they're in Proleague or not? Wow, shocking.
I don't know about this Power Rank in general. Personally I love lists and I really like the debate surrounding it which can be a perfectly healthy discussion. However SC2 is still in development and to determine who's better than who is nearly impossible (volatile game). Just look at last week. Number 1 INnoVation dropped a map to Jaedong (who's no ZvT walkover I admit), number 3 Flash getting 2-0'd by Mini, N.4 Rain having an horrible week losing two mirrors versus Pigbaby and First. I say maybe a monthly edition of who had the best performances during that month. For instance First is doing great and he should definately get mentioned, but if he's "the best or the most powerful", I don't know, I think he needs to be more consistent for a longer period.
There were such fluctuations in Brood War as well - Flash losing to M18M twice, or Fantasy derping out every now and even being sent to the B team temporarily after a string of bad performances. Power Ranks were also rather subjective and "feely" with only a basic foundation in results. Monthly power rank can stay pretty stable even if the player has an off-day or an off-week. I think SC2 is stabilizing in that regard.
The only problem is that there isn't an unified structure to the competition that there was in Brood War. Even WCS doesn't do that for Starcraft 2 - it doesn't matter if you call everything a "WCS" if the scenes are still fundamentally fragmented and there is no truly unifying league that everybody competes in. Still, that only affects Koreans competing in foreign events, and doesn't concern players like First (who I believe should break into the lower ranks in the next edition).
On July 11 2013 11:06 smashlloyd20 wrote: I want to see First in the next PR, he's been playing the games of his life recently. Note he is 8-1 in maps in the last month :D
On July 11 2013 20:52 Dodgin wrote: Joke power rank, plz re-write.
It's not a joke powerrank. But they should just cut the eSF players completely and call it a Kespa/Proleague power rank. Then it would be pretty accurate.
On July 11 2013 20:52 Dodgin wrote: Joke power rank, plz re-write.
It's not a joke powerrank. But they should just cut the eSF players completely and call it a Kespa/Proleague power rank. Then it would be pretty accurate.
Give them more data and then maybe they'll consider it. Otherwise it just sounds like people venting. I take it you guys are watching the OSL atm and it's not like they're going to ignore what's happening for next months so cool your jets.
Life has certainly lost both his luster and his aura of invincibility, and the hopes and dreams of eSF supporters across the land have been shattered as they realized their best chance at a #1 Power Rank placement is now but a whisper in the wind.
On July 11 2013 20:52 Dodgin wrote: Joke power rank, plz re-write.
It's not a joke powerrank. But they should just cut the eSF players completely and call it a Kespa/Proleague power rank. Then it would be pretty accurate.
Give them more data and then maybe they'll consider it. Otherwise it just sounds like people venting. I take it you guys are watching the OSL atm and it's not like they're going to ignore what's happening for next months so cool your jets.
I agree that there is little data for eSF players. But isn't the point of a power rank to rank players by their results+gameplay and carefully wage the results you have against each other.
Proleague having 3times the amount of games of GSTL doesn't diminish top WCS placements or GSTL results or the state of other players in general. After all Proleague isn't anything else but a Teamleague. Something that we have seen dominated by quite mediocre Sololeague players before.
I can read OSL results and Proleague results and put them together and I'm gonna end up with ~this powerrank (or rather the last one). That doesn't justify Fantasy, Jangbi and even Flash being placed like they are in a general comparison. Fantasy and Jangbi shouldn't be in there at all. Their results are wacky and their gameplay hights were beating Flash who is overrated at this point (top10 - yes he makes the cut. But top3 - that should require at least one top4 OSL performance in the last few WCS'). On the contrary Rain has already showed that he can be a champion and him not performing as well in the last OSLs is at least partly because he voluntarily droped out of Code S some seasons ago and has that Proleague performance as special icing. Not even gonna start about sOs. They definitely deserve top spots at this point.
On July 11 2013 20:52 Dodgin wrote: Joke power rank, plz re-write.
It's not a joke powerrank. But they should just cut the eSF players completely and call it a Kespa/Proleague power rank. Then it would be pretty accurate.
Give them more data and then maybe they'll consider it. Otherwise it just sounds like people venting. I take it you guys are watching the OSL atm and it's not like they're going to ignore what's happening for next months so cool your jets.
I agree that there is little data for eSF players. But isn't the point of a power rank to rank players by their results+gameplay and carefully wage the results you have against each other.
Proleague having 3times the amount of games of GSTL doesn't diminish top WCS placements or GSTL results or the state of other players in general. After all Proleague isn't anything else but a Teamleague. Something that we have seen dominated by quite mediocre Sololeague players before.
I can read OSL results and Proleague results and put them together and I'm gonna end up with ~this powerrank (or rather the last one). That doesn't justify Fantasy, Jangbi and even Flash being placed like they are in a general comparison. Fantasy and Jangbi shouldn't be in there at all. Their results are wacky and their gameplay hights were beating Flash who is overrated at this point (top10 - yes he makes the cut. But top3 - that should require at least one top4 OSL performance in the last few WCS'). On the contrary Rain has already showed that he can be a champion and him not performing as well in the last OSLs is at least partly because he voluntarily droped out of Code S some seasons ago and has that Proleague performance as special icing. Not even gonna start about sOs. They definitely deserve top spots at this point.
How many times have we been over this? I rather not sound like a broken record so you can go through my filter if you want in this thread to see what I say. When it comes to something like the OSL there will be more weight there. When you don't have that many credible looks on players as is it's very hard to measure them. The GSTL format sucks and it's always sucked. As for the WCS it's more dependent on who's playing who. How they fair between the three races and any other pivotal benchmarks rather than how they're doing in a WCS placement. It's always been that way. Pro League is the Premiere League. I don't get the mediocre solo-league blurb. It was great at the time considering if you were to go with only qualifiers themselves then guys like Bisu, Stork, Sea, etc. would have been extinct in general in our PL ratings long ago and you say they're mediocre when truth be told the old PRs tell us otherwise. This isn't just one author's opinion for that matter because back then I found myself agreeing with the PR A LOT of times. Why? Because those heavy hitters were playing against top notch competition in PL and winning a ridiculous amount of games even if they didn't qualify for the OSL. You know one of the reasons Rain holds the 2nd best record in PL atm? It's because SKT sends him out in almost every situation and he can get a few kills in All-Kill Format. Just like herO[join] is to CJ; SKT are in the position where they have to play him. I was surprised when I found out he has the highest win rates when I was looking up stats to Ace Matches. I actually found some really shocking results that I was going to write an article about, but then decided not to because there wasn't one true stand out. I will say this though, the two players that seem to love the stress and pressure of the Ace Match from PL are sHy and JangBi. In fact, their records are nearly PERFECT when they're the last two guys to be sent out; whereas, guys like Rain and herO are barely over .500 yet JangBi and sHy got knocked out of the OSL in the round of 32. Meanwhile Rain will probably have to go through a tiebreaker in his group. Next match is a must win for him. Just another reason why we have to weigh out everything instead of looking at one thing, which they don't. Goes back to what I said. The bigger the body of work the better we can look at the players extensively.
This thread will basically get bumped every time someone gets to prove the list was wrong haha.
No-one bumps it when Soulkey or Innovation crush their groups though.
(not disagreeing with recent posts, just a observation)
Anyway, August is going to have an interesting Power Rank. Should be lots of movement below #1 and #2. I can't even predict what it will look like. August is still so far away. Still an IEM and Dreamhack in there as well.
What point will all the WCS tournaments be at by the end of July? I'm terrible at tracking dates for ongoing tournaments...
On July 11 2013 22:12 bittman wrote: This thread will basically get bumped every time someone gets to prove the list was wrong haha.
No-one bumps it when Soulkey or Innovation crush their groups though.
(not disagreeing with recent posts, just a observation)
Anyway, August is going to have an interesting Power Rank. Should be lots of movement below #1 and #2. I can't even predict what it will look like. August is still so far away. Still an IEM and Dreamhack in there as well.
What point will all the WCS tournaments be at by the end of July? I'm terrible at tracking dates for ongoing tournaments...
This PL biased is a consequence of Bogus and SK doing too well in individual league, that other Kespa players automatically get a free pass as "being levels above the rest". Also, try to be more consistent/convincing. You can't use PL results to put some players in the ranking and then explain it away when it worked against your favorite player (Rain). Do this often and nobody will take the ranking seriously.
On July 12 2013 01:56 painkilla wrote: This PL biased is a consequence of Bogus and SK doing too well in individual league, that other Kespa players automatically get a free pass as "being levels above the rest". Also, try to be more consistent/convincing. You can't use PL results to put some players in the ranking and then explain it away when it worked against your favorite player (Rain). Do this often and nobody will take the ranking seriously.
I thought I already dealt with you already. lol The conspiracy theorists are out in full force today!
On July 12 2013 01:56 painkilla wrote: This PL biased is a consequence of Bogus and SK doing too well in individual league, that other Kespa players automatically get a free pass as "being levels above the rest". Also, try to be more consistent/convincing. You can't use PL results to put some players in the ranking and then explain it away when it worked against your favorite player (Rain). Do this often and nobody will take the ranking seriously.
I thought I already dealt with you already. lol The conspiracy theorists are out in full force today!
On July 12 2013 01:56 painkilla wrote: This PL biased is a consequence of Bogus and SK doing too well in individual league, that other Kespa players automatically get a free pass as "being levels above the rest". Also, try to be more consistent/convincing. You can't use PL results to put some players in the ranking and then explain it away when it worked against your favorite player (Rain). Do this often and nobody will take the ranking seriously.
I thought I already dealt with you already. lol The conspiracy theorists are out in full force today!
You see people who argue over the PR as little pests to be "dealt with"? wtf
On July 15 2013 03:08 TheBamf wrote: 3 non kespa players. G fuckin' G. The prophecy came true
When 80% of the stats this is based of is Proleague its kinda hard not to.
Try to guess why it is based on Proleague though. Besides it having the most matches in July, it is also the most premier and the 'hardest to do well in' league in the world. Now, you can argue about WCS KR which has not enough matches (and besides Innovation and Soulkey, there are like no really consistent players throughout the two seasons, Bomber maybe with his second Ro8 in a row and Symbol with a possibility of Ro8) and WCS Global, which is only one frickin' weekend tournament that doesn't mean anything. WCS EU and AM are laughable as opposed to KR.
All in all, consistently winning should be more indicative of player's skill, then winning 1 or 2 Bo3s.
EDIT: Hardest to do well in, I mean consistently. Like over teh span of several months. Of course you can do well in 1 match for example.
On July 15 2013 03:08 TheBamf wrote: 3 non kespa players. G fuckin' G. The prophecy came true
When 80% of the stats this is based of is Proleague its kinda hard not to.
Try to guess why it is based on Proleague though. Besides it having the most matches in July, it is also the most premier and the 'hardest to do well in' league in the world. Now, you can argue about WCS KR which has not enough matches (and besides Innovation and Soulkey, there are like no really consistent players throughout the two seasons, Bomber maybe with his second Ro8 in a row and Symbol with a possibility of Ro8) and WCS Global, which is only one frickin' weekend tournament that doesn't mean anything. WCS EU and AM are laughable as opposed to KR.
All in all, consistently winning should be more indicative of player's skill, then winning 1 or 2 Bo3s.
EDIT: Hardest to do well in, I mean consistently. Like over teh span of several months. Of course you can do well in 1 match for example.
The problem is that some people are using it as evidence that somehow the Elephant article had legitimacy and that Kespa is dominating everyone else, when half of the Kespa players are on the power rank not because they're dominating non-Kespa players, but rather, fellow Kespa players in Proleague.
I really feel like Proleague should just have its own power rank because I can see the whole sample size thing being a problem for every power rank. Basically, no matter what anyone's performance is outside of Proleague, it'll be overshadowed by Proleague results due to the sheer amount of Proleague games thanks to its format. And unlike WCS, Proleague is a lot more closed off in the sense that there isn't an Up-Downs/Challenger portion of Proleague, so even if there were possibly deserving teams who wanted to compete in it, they wouldn't have the opportunity to challenge the lower-ranked PL teams for a spot.
On July 15 2013 03:08 TheBamf wrote: 3 non kespa players. G fuckin' G. The prophecy came true
When 80% of the stats this is based of is Proleague its kinda hard not to.
Try to guess why it is based on Proleague though. Besides it having the most matches in July, it is also the most premier and the 'hardest to do well in' league in the world. Now, you can argue about WCS KR which has not enough matches (and besides Innovation and Soulkey, there are like no really consistent players throughout the two seasons, Bomber maybe with his second Ro8 in a row and Symbol with a possibility of Ro8) and WCS Global, which is only one frickin' weekend tournament that doesn't mean anything. WCS EU and AM are laughable as opposed to KR.
All in all, consistently winning should be more indicative of player's skill, then winning 1 or 2 Bo3s.
EDIT: Hardest to do well in, I mean consistently. Like over teh span of several months. Of course you can do well in 1 match for example.
It has nothing to do with what is harder to do consistently and what is not. It's simply about the most matches played. Proleague has the most matches, we all know that so ofc they will count for more. However, it's when people are starting to make silly conclusions about why the KeSPA players are so high it gets annoying. It has nothing to do with the elephant or al that other nosense, its simply more matches going on in progleague so more stats are based on proleague which results in more KeSPA players in these rankings.
On July 15 2013 03:08 TheBamf wrote: 3 non kespa players. G fuckin' G. The prophecy came true
When 80% of the stats this is based of is Proleague its kinda hard not to.
Try to guess why it is based on Proleague though. Besides it having the most matches in July, it is also the most premier and the 'hardest to do well in' league in the world. Now, you can argue about WCS KR which has not enough matches (and besides Innovation and Soulkey, there are like no really consistent players throughout the two seasons, Bomber maybe with his second Ro8 in a row and Symbol with a possibility of Ro8) and WCS Global, which is only one frickin' weekend tournament that doesn't mean anything. WCS EU and AM are laughable as opposed to KR.
All in all, consistently winning should be more indicative of player's skill, then winning 1 or 2 Bo3s.
EDIT: Hardest to do well in, I mean consistently. Like over teh span of several months. Of course you can do well in 1 match for example.
The problem is that some people are using it as evidence that somehow the Elephant article had legitimacy and that Kespa is dominating everyone else, when half of the Kespa players are on the power rank not because they're dominating non-Kespa players, but rather, fellow Kespa players in Proleague.
I really feel like Proleague should just have its own power rank because I can see the whole sample size thing being a problem for every power rank. Basically, no matter what anyone's performance is outside of Proleague, it'll be overshadowed by Proleague results due to the sheer amount of Proleague games thanks to its format. And unlike WCS, Proleague is a lot more closed off in the sense that there isn't an Up-Downs/Challenger portion of Proleague, so even if there were possibly deserving teams who wanted to compete in it, they wouldn't have the opportunity to challenge the lower-ranked PL teams for a spot.
And OSL Ro16 shows how legitimate this ranking system is.
I hope we get a First vs Rain OSL matchup. IMO they're the two best Toss in the world, the 1 game they played already was terrific, and it'd be really fun to see them play a Bo7. PvP's a fun matchup these days, and I'd like to settle who the top Protoss is at the moment. Rain is outstanding, but tbh First's play has impressed me more lately.
On July 19 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote: I hope we get a First vs Rain OSL matchup. IMO they're the two best Toss in the world, the 1 game they played already was terrific, and it'd be really fun to see them play a Bo7. PvP's a fun matchup these days, and I'd like to settle who the top Protoss is at the moment. Rain is outstanding, but tbh First's play has impressed me more lately.
First has better multitasking and engagement but is not very experienced with funky situations. However the tie-breakers series showed First is good mentally, can play well in high stake games.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
2nd place MLG, stellar performance in proleague, decent at WCS KR. Flash deserved to be in the ranking.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
Flash lost to the best player in the world and possibly the best TvT player in the world. If Bomber had been in a different group with no terrans, then he could quite easily have been knocked out and Flash would make it through instead. Taking 4 games (one of which was just a pure build order loss) and saying "lol guess you were wrong" is just stupid.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
2nd place MLG, stellar performance in proleague, decent at WCS KR. Flash deserved to be in the ranking.
Fantasy and jangbi now......
Well i agree Flash definitely deserve in the Top 10. Just top 3 is slightly too high.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
Flash lost to the best player in the world and possibly the best TvT player in the world. If Bomber had been in a different group with no terrans, then he could quite easily have been knocked out and Flash would make it through instead. Taking 4 games (one of which was just a pure build order loss) and saying "lol guess you were wrong" is just stupid.
I am not saying they were wrong because he got creamed by Innovation and Bomber. I am saying they were wrong to put him in 3rd in the first place and him getting crushed just proved that he wasn't quite there yet.
Also it wasn't just the fact that he lost. He lost without even really putting up a fight. Light, one of the biggest Flash fanboys on this site even admitted Flash played terrible. Playing like that he would have been eliminated in almost any group and I doubt Bomber would be eliminated.
I understand it is hard to rank the players when there are way more games to judge one group by then another but putting more weight on team league matches seems wrong to me.
On July 19 2013 07:33 Die4Ever wrote: Flash was definitely #3. In his OSL Ro16 group, lol
haha, ouch!
I wouldn't say that he played terribly. Really, his second game against Innovation came down to one bad miscalculation, and his losses to Bomber were against unorthodox timing attacks. He's shown in the past that he's capable of beating Innovation (even now, they're 5-5 in HotS) and has an 80% win rate in Proleague since May (20-5). Prior to this power rank, he was still 78% in Proleague since May, and easily won his OSL group 2-0.
So really, who deserved to be higher? Bomber wasn't exactly looking great prior to this group; sOs got knocked out in the Ro32; Rain was looking shaky in June; so who else really is there?
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
OSL didn't prove anything. Bomber didn't have any results whatsoever in June (besides losing streak in GSTL), Symbol was mentioned as a 11th guy and even though I would agree he should have been there instead of Taeja, he will for sure break into the next issue. Fantasy does not belong there as of RIGHT NOW, but he surely deserved his spot for June. Maybe not the 7th, but he was supposed to be in Top10... As far as Flash is concerned, he has more wins in SPL then anyone. In fact, the most wins in SPL. More then Innovation, more then Soulkey, more then Rain, more then sOs, again - more then ANYONE... He deserved that spot for such consistency, imo! If he fails in playoffs, he will probably drop to bottom 5. But if he leads KT to victory in semifinals and (please no) even finals, he should and will be in top5 even next month.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
2nd place MLG, stellar performance in proleague, decent at WCS KR. Flash deserved to be in the ranking.
Fantasy and jangbi now......
JangBi had the most amazing month of June of any protoss players. He was 8-3 in SPL, with 3-1 in ace matches (over Rain, for example) and singlehandedly carried Samsung KHAN into playoff contention upto very last week. For June, and June only, he should have been rated higher then players like Rain or sOs. Yes, he lost 2 Bo1s in OSL, but so did sOs and nobody is arguing about him. Lack of past results have relegated him to only 6th position, which is obviously fine, but he belonged there. Obviously, he won't be in the next month, since he is not playing in anything in July, which is fine.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
OSL didn't prove anything. Bomber didn't have any results whatsoever in June (besides losing streak in GSTL), Symbol was mentioned as a 11th guy and even though I would agree he should have been there instead of Taeja, he will for sure break into the next issue. Fantasy does not belong there as of RIGHT NOW, but he surely deserved his spot for June. Maybe not the 7th, but he was supposed to be in Top10... As far as Flash is concerned, he has more wins in SPL then anyone. In fact, the most wins in SPL. More then Innovation, more then Soulkey, more then Rain, more then sOs, again - more then ANYONE... He deserved that spot for such consistency, imo! If he fails in playoffs, he will probably drop to bottom 5. But if he leads KT to victory in semifinals and (please no) even finals, he should and will be in top5 even next month.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
2nd place MLG, stellar performance in proleague, decent at WCS KR. Flash deserved to be in the ranking.
Fantasy and jangbi now......
JangBi had the most amazing month of June of any protoss players. He was 8-3 in SPL, with 3-1 in ace matches (over Rain, for example) and singlehandedly carried Samsung KHAN into playoff contention upto very last week. For June, and June only, he should have been rated higher then players like Rain or sOs. Yes, he lost 2 Bo1s in OSL, but so did sOs and nobody is arguing about him. Lack of past results have relegated him to only 7th position, which is obviously fine, but he belonged there. Obviously, he won't be in the next month, since he is not playing in anything in July, which is fine.
So the problem (in addition to the PL bias) is that PR only take 1 month of results into consideration for PR. That makes little sense for a highly volatile game like SC2. Not to mention eSF players never get enough wins in one month to be in top 5 (unless they win WCS ). Results from past 3 months should be considered imo.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
OSL didn't prove anything. Bomber didn't have any results whatsoever in June (besides losing streak in GSTL), Symbol was mentioned as a 11th guy and even though I would agree he should have been there instead of Taeja, he will for sure break into the next issue. Fantasy does not belong there as of RIGHT NOW, but he surely deserved his spot for June. Maybe not the 7th, but he was supposed to be in Top10... As far as Flash is concerned, he has more wins in SPL then anyone. In fact, the most wins in SPL. More then Innovation, more then Soulkey, more then Rain, more then sOs, again - more then ANYONE... He deserved that spot for such consistency, imo! If he fails in playoffs, he will probably drop to bottom 5. But if he leads KT to victory in semifinals and (please no) even finals, he should and will be in top5 even next month.
On July 19 2013 08:50 sibs wrote:
On July 19 2013 07:50 Baroninthetree wrote:
On July 19 2013 07:41 Neemi wrote:
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
2nd place MLG, stellar performance in proleague, decent at WCS KR. Flash deserved to be in the ranking.
Fantasy and jangbi now......
JangBi had the most amazing month of June of any protoss players. He was 8-3 in SPL, with 3-1 in ace matches (over Rain, for example) and singlehandedly carried Samsung KHAN into playoff contention upto very last week. For June, and June only, he should have been rated higher then players like Rain or sOs. Yes, he lost 2 Bo1s in OSL, but so did sOs and nobody is arguing about him. Lack of past results have relegated him to only 7th position, which is obviously fine, but he belonged there. Obviously, he won't be in the next month, since he is not playing in anything in July, which is fine.
So the problem (in addition to the PL bias) is that PR only take 1 month of results into consideration for PR. That makes little sense for a highly volatile game like SC2. Not to mention eSF players never get enough wins in one month to be in top 5 (unless they win WCS ). Results from past 3 months should be considered imo.
I don't see it as a problem. The past results are taken into consideration, but they are not the primary ones. I mean, if past results would not be taken into consideration at all, you wuold have this full of guys like Stardust, Polt, Losira, TurN, TY etc etc who (with all due respect) do not belong there (yet).
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
Every RO16 flash has been in a group of death.
Last season: Parting, Life, Innovation, Flash This season: Innovation, Bomber, Flash, Bbyong (outlier)
Flash is a beast and the absolute best gamer I have ever seen at any game. Everyone loses and Flash has stated numerous times that all his focus is on team events, which he is DOMINATING. If you actually look at who he loses to and how, there is no doubt Flash is one of the best and definitely top 5.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
Every RO16 flash has been in a group of death.
Last season: Parting, Life, Innovation, Flash This season: Innovation, Bomber, Flash, Bbyong (outlier)
He is undefeated in the RO32
He may be undefeated RO32 in two seasons but Symbol made it to RO4 and now RO8 yet doesn't even crack the top 10 so that would suggest there is more emphasis on Flash winning in PL rather then his WCS results.
I urge readers to consider overall performance across a flexible time frame before starting to argue. SC2 is iffy. 1 month ago bomber was "meh...bomber" and now he's arguably #2. Parting was in contention for best Protoss only just recently but seems to have fallen off. Ditto with Life, sOs. Flash did poorer than expected, but across the board it wasn't a terrible showing.
What can we learn from this? If you look solely at the most recent starleague performances you will find that the rankings become incredibly contentious, with seemingly no pattern other than bogus #1 and soulkey #2.
On July 19 2013 15:39 shadymmj wrote: I urge readers to consider overall performance across a flexible time frame before starting to argue. SC2 is iffy. 1 month ago bomber was "meh...bomber" and now he's arguably #2. Parting was in contention for best Protoss only just recently but seems to have fallen off. Ditto with Life, sOs. Flash did poorer than expected, but across the board it wasn't a terrible showing.
What can we learn from this? If you look solely at the most recent starleague performances you will find that the rankings become incredibly contentious, with seemingly no pattern other than bogus #1 and soulkey #2.
There's no way that Bomber's #2. People just look at a couple of recent games and make ridiculous judgements based on them. Yes, he beat Flash and Innovation. Meanwhile, his TvP and TvZ are under 50%, despite playing nearly half his TvZ games against foreigners.
On July 19 2013 15:39 shadymmj wrote: I urge readers to consider overall performance across a flexible time frame before starting to argue. SC2 is iffy. 1 month ago bomber was "meh...bomber" and now he's arguably #2. Parting was in contention for best Protoss only just recently but seems to have fallen off. Ditto with Life, sOs. Flash did poorer than expected, but across the board it wasn't a terrible showing.
What can we learn from this? If you look solely at the most recent starleague performances you will find that the rankings become incredibly contentious, with seemingly no pattern other than bogus #1 and soulkey #2.
bomber was top8 GSL. now he is top8 OSL. he wasnt "meh" at all. flash only did poorer as expected if you expected too much of him.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I feel like when you rank the 10 best players, that it should have some predictive value within the next month. One of the criteria is even "Quality of play", which should allow a good player to make the rank even if he really didn't have the greatest results in the previous month.
I feel like if Fantasy (1428 ELO on Aligulac) swapped results with Reality (1479, 51 points higher), Fantasy would still be in the top 10 and Reality still wouldn't be mentioned. If JangBi (1600) swapped results with soO (1574), he'd still be in the top 10 and soO would still not be mentioned. Or if Flash (1818) swapped results with sOs (1822), he might even be #2 in this power rank, and certainly not as low as #5.
The big names are getting more credit than deserved. I understand that ELO is flawed (hell, Life is still #2), but these are peers who have nearly had the same opportunities and thus the flaws of ELO minimized, and some are getting credit that others aren't simply because of their names. Then when you add on the non-KESPA Koreans and the often better quality of play coming out of them and you can see why people were disappointed in the list as soon as it came out.
It had very little predictive power because it was poorly made from the start.
On July 19 2013 07:08 Emzeeshady wrote: Thank you OSL for proving that these ranking were way off.
Flash at 3? Fantasy at 7? No Smybol?
lol
It feels like people don't realize that it's not a ranking which has predictive validity, but that the goal of a power rank seems to be to sum up the last few months of Starcraft to show who is doing well and who isn't. It's always possible for high-ranking players to start playing worse the next month (Flash/Fantasy) or to have people suddenly start playing a lot better (Bomber/First). They will be placed accordingly when the next power rank shows up. Flash will probably drop down to the lower end of the list, unless he completely fails at PL too and Fantasy probably drops out of the list entirely. In return, Bomber/First have a good chance to be included next time around, depending on how they fare in the Ro8.
Also, please don't make separate power ranks, because that would inevitably lead to arguments to which players would belong where on the other power rank and even more fragmentation.
I still don't think flash deserve his spots in any mth's power rank. He's been consistently in top 5 While attended 5 osl/gsland never even made to rd 8. Flash is definitely overrated at any time's power rank
Every RO16 flash has been in a group of death.
Last season: Parting, Life, Innovation, Flash This season: Innovation, Bomber, Flash, Bbyong (outlier)
He is undefeated in the RO32
He may be undefeated RO32 in two seasons but Symbol made it to RO4 and now RO8 yet doesn't even crack the top 10 so that would suggest there is more emphasis on Flash winning in PL rather then his WCS results.
I believe both should had been in the top 10.
My point was that you cant just look at how far they get, you have to look at who they face. Symbols RO32/RO16 were comparably easy when you look at who they played against. Then he beat bomber to make it to the RO4, but that makes a bit of sense since Symbols ZvT is amazing while Bomber's TvZ is lackluster.
Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
The sample size 'argument' is legit. if you want to know who the best players are, you have to look at statistics. Considering how volatile a game like SC2 is, where even the best players can't get above 70% win ratio, you need a larger sample of games to get an accurate picture. WCS KR has the highest calibre of play, but the low sample size is really volatile. It took DRG some time to get into Code S, even when he was clearly world class from his GSTL performances. At the same time, you get guys like Sniper or Seed, who have a good run and win Code S and then fall out very quickly.
people moaned about OSL's bo1 format in R32. 'cause it's volatile, 'cause the better player might lose 1 game but could've won in a bo3. The same principle applies here and quite frankly in a game like SC2, even bo3s and bo5s are very volatile.
If a good player goes on a good-run of say twelve games, he'll get into the ro8, yet over a larger sample of games, that result may simply be due to variance and his avg win rate may be much lower. Conversely, a very good player (i.e Life) may go on a slump for a bit, yet over a large sample, he's still world-class.
The top players in SPL do tend also to be the top players in WCS KR. People have been predicting sOs to break through in WCS KR after his win ratio in SPL. Could've predicted the same with SK and Innovation as well. Rain and Flash, they haven't done as well, yet I'd expect them to eventually break through in individual-leagues in the long-run.
The problem is when guys like Fantasy and maybe Jangbi, who go on a good run in the SPL and are put on the power-rank. I think that's got to do with the fact that the Power-rank weights recent games far more heavily. If one looks at their long-run win ratios, there's definitely a distinction between the cream of the crop guys: Inno, SK, sOs, Flash, Rain and the good players who can go on streaks: Jangbi, Fantasy, Jaehoon/Argo, Baby.
Also eSF players need to get a team league where they actually regularly play games.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
The sample size 'argument' is legit. if you want to know who the best players are, you have to look at statistics. Considering how volatile a game like SC2 is, where even the best players can't get above 70% win ratio, you need a larger sample of games to get an accurate picture. WCS KR has the highest calibre of play, but the low sample size is really volatile. It took DRG some time to get into Code S, even when he was clearly world class from his GSTL performances. At the same time, you get guys like Sniper or Seed, who have a good run and win Code S and then fall out very quickly.
people moaned about OSL's bo1 format in R32. 'cause it's volatile, 'cause the better player might lose 1 game but could've won in a bo3. The same principle applies here and quite frankly in a game like SC2, even bo3s and bo5s are very volatile.
If a good player goes on a good-run of say twelve games, he'll get into the ro8, yet over a larger sample of games, that result may simply be due to variance and his avg win rate may be much lower. Conversely, a very good player (i.e Life) may go on a slump for a bit, yet over a large sample, he's still world-class.
The top players in SPL do tend also to be the top players in WCS KR. People have been predicting sOs to break through in WCS KR after his win ratio in SPL. Could've predicted the same with SK and Innovation as well. Rain and Flash, they haven't done as well, yet I'd expect them to eventually break through in individual-leagues in the long-run.
The problem is when guys like Fantasy and maybe Jangbi, who go on a good run in the SPL and are put on the power-rank. I think that's got to do with the fact that the Power-rank weights recent games far more heavily. If one looks at their long-run win ratios, there's definitely a distinction between the cream of the crop guys: Inno, SK, sOs, Flash, Rain and the good players who can go on streaks: Jangbi, Fantasy, Jaehoon/Argo, Baby.
Also eSF players need to get a team league where they actually regularly play games.
sorry but that's nothing SC2 specific. German football Bundesliga last season: Even the very best teams in other sports like football will only sometimes reach like 80% winrate. E.g. german Bundesliga champion Bayern Munich had 82% winrate last season. the runner up Borrusia Dormund had already only 55% winrate.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
The sample size 'argument' is legit. if you want to know who the best players are, you have to look at statistics. Considering how volatile a game like SC2 is, where even the best players can't get above 70% win ratio, you need a larger sample of games to get an accurate picture. WCS KR has the highest calibre of play, but the low sample size is really volatile. It took DRG some time to get into Code S, even when he was clearly world class from his GSTL performances. At the same time, you get guys like Sniper or Seed, who have a good run and win Code S and then fall out very quickly.
people moaned about OSL's bo1 format in R32. 'cause it's volatile, 'cause the better player might lose 1 game but could've won in a bo3. The same principle applies here and quite frankly in a game like SC2, even bo3s and bo5s are very volatile.
If a good player goes on a good-run of say twelve games, he'll get into the ro8, yet over a larger sample of games, that result may simply be due to variance and his avg win rate may be much lower. Conversely, a very good player (i.e Life) may go on a slump for a bit, yet over a large sample, he's still world-class.
The top players in SPL do tend also to be the top players in WCS KR. People have been predicting sOs to break through in WCS KR after his win ratio in SPL. Could've predicted the same with SK and Innovation as well. Rain and Flash, they haven't done as well, yet I'd expect them to eventually break through in individual-leagues in the long-run.
The problem is when guys like Fantasy and maybe Jangbi, who go on a good run in the SPL and are put on the power-rank. I think that's got to do with the fact that the Power-rank weights recent games far more heavily. If one looks at their long-run win ratios, there's definitely a distinction between the cream of the crop guys: Inno, SK, sOs, Flash, Rain and the good players who can go on streaks: Jangbi, Fantasy, Jaehoon/Argo, Baby.
Also eSF players need to get a team league where they actually regularly play games.
sorry but that's nothing SC2 specific. German football Bundesliga last season: Even the very best teams in other sports like football will only sometimes reach like 80% winrate. E.g. german Bundesliga champion Bayern Munich had 82% winrate last season. the runner up Borrusia Dormund had already only 55% winrate.
No it's not SC2 specific and football is another example of a 'volatile' game. Except bear in mind that in SC2 there's generally only two possible results: win or loss. In football, draws erode the win rate significantly.
Glad you brought up the football example though. Again, you determine the best team over the course of a season, not over 1 game.
Let us suppose BM = Innovation, in other words, performs very well in the national league (SPL) AND in the Champions League (GSL) and contrast to a team that performed very well in the national league but not well at all in the champions league: Manchester City (I dunno, Flash?). Actually good example because they were in the Group of Death with Borussia Dortmund and Real Madrid.
I think most people would still regard Manchester City as one of the top 10 teams in the world. On the other hand you have a team like Chelsea which WON the Champions League but did poorly in their national league and in that year, not many would have considered them a top 10 team.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
I wouldn't be against a separate rank for PL players as the creators of these rankings lean so heavily towards proleague results that it makes having the rest of the players pointless.
Next month Fantasy will just be replaced by whatever player does well in proleague...
Honestly, a seperate ranking is required. Having a top10 where half the players get basically a second chance is laughable.
With proleague being a closed competition, I´d even be inclined to ignore it altogether. Sure you see a lot and it´s just an article, but in order to have a proper power rank, you have to have proper competition, and that is not given within the pond (though it´s a shark pond) of PL. So, for me, the argument of a greater number of games can very well be disregarded, because it is a closed competition, while WCS is open and thus more competitive.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
The sample size 'argument' is legit. if you want to know who the best players are, you have to look at statistics. Considering how volatile a game like SC2 is, where even the best players can't get above 70% win ratio, you need a larger sample of games to get an accurate picture. WCS KR has the highest calibre of play, but the low sample size is really volatile. It took DRG some time to get into Code S, even when he was clearly world class from his GSTL performances. At the same time, you get guys like Sniper or Seed, who have a good run and win Code S and then fall out very quickly.
people moaned about OSL's bo1 format in R32. 'cause it's volatile, 'cause the better player might lose 1 game but could've won in a bo3. The same principle applies here and quite frankly in a game like SC2, even bo3s and bo5s are very volatile.
If a good player goes on a good-run of say twelve games, he'll get into the ro8, yet over a larger sample of games, that result may simply be due to variance and his avg win rate may be much lower. Conversely, a very good player (i.e Life) may go on a slump for a bit, yet over a large sample, he's still world-class.
The top players in SPL do tend also to be the top players in WCS KR. People have been predicting sOs to break through in WCS KR after his win ratio in SPL. Could've predicted the same with SK and Innovation as well. Rain and Flash, they haven't done as well, yet I'd expect them to eventually break through in individual-leagues in the long-run.
The problem is when guys like Fantasy and maybe Jangbi, who go on a good run in the SPL and are put on the power-rank. I think that's got to do with the fact that the Power-rank weights recent games far more heavily. If one looks at their long-run win ratios, there's definitely a distinction between the cream of the crop guys: Inno, SK, sOs, Flash, Rain and the good players who can go on streaks: Jangbi, Fantasy, Jaehoon/Argo, Baby.
Also eSF players need to get a team league where they actually regularly play games.
sorry but that's nothing SC2 specific. German football Bundesliga last season: Even the very best teams in other sports like football will only sometimes reach like 80% winrate. E.g. german Bundesliga champion Bayern Munich had 82% winrate last season. the runner up Borrusia Dormund had already only 55% winrate.
No it's not SC2 specific and football is another example of a 'volatile' game. Except bear in mind that in SC2 there's generally only two possible results: win or loss. In football, draws erode the win rate significantly.
Glad you brought up the football example though. Again, you determine the best team over the course of a season, not over 1 game.
Let us suppose BM = Innovation, in other words, performs very well in the national league (SPL) AND in the Champions League (GSL) and contrast to a team that performed very well in the national league but not well at all in the champions league: Manchester City (I dunno, Flash?). Actually good example because they were in the Group of Death with Borussia Dortmund and Real Madrid.
I think most people would still regard Manchester City as one of the top 10 teams in the world. On the other hand you have a team like Chelsea which WON the Champions League but did poorly in their national league and in that year, not many would have considered them a top 10 team.
On July 19 2013 20:35 opterown wrote: even in BW not many people reached 70% right? how many people would be able to do so consistently?
Well I think BW was a volatile game as well. It wasn't an issue though, since the Kespa scene was the ONLY scene in Korea. So obviously the power-rank back then was 'less' contentious than it is today, where eSF players play in the GSTL.
I do think though that the top players in BW were more 'consistent' in terms of a long period of time. Flash in 2009, 2010, 2011 had 74%+ win ratio. Jaedong had near 70% over 3 years in 2008, 2009 and 2010. SC2 is still a young game though, so gotta wait and see.
So far I only think of Mvp as a consistent winner over a number of years, though guys like DRG, MC and MKP are still sort of relevant to the scene.
On July 19 2013 20:35 opterown wrote: even in BW not many people reached 70% right? how many people would be able to do so consistently?
Flash was the only player to have a 70% win rate for basically his entire career (other than dipping below briefly near the beginning of his career). Other players like Boxer, Nada, Iloveoov, Savior, Jaedong and Bisu maintained a 70% win rate for periods of time. Possibly Best also had a 70% win rate for a bit.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
The sample size 'argument' is legit. if you want to know who the best players are, you have to look at statistics. Considering how volatile a game like SC2 is, where even the best players can't get above 70% win ratio, you need a larger sample of games to get an accurate picture. WCS KR has the highest calibre of play, but the low sample size is really volatile. It took DRG some time to get into Code S, even when he was clearly world class from his GSTL performances. At the same time, you get guys like Sniper or Seed, who have a good run and win Code S and then fall out very quickly.
people moaned about OSL's bo1 format in R32. 'cause it's volatile, 'cause the better player might lose 1 game but could've won in a bo3. The same principle applies here and quite frankly in a game like SC2, even bo3s and bo5s are very volatile.
If a good player goes on a good-run of say twelve games, he'll get into the ro8, yet over a larger sample of games, that result may simply be due to variance and his avg win rate may be much lower. Conversely, a very good player (i.e Life) may go on a slump for a bit, yet over a large sample, he's still world-class.
The top players in SPL do tend also to be the top players in WCS KR. People have been predicting sOs to break through in WCS KR after his win ratio in SPL. Could've predicted the same with SK and Innovation as well. Rain and Flash, they haven't done as well, yet I'd expect them to eventually break through in individual-leagues in the long-run.
The problem is when guys like Fantasy and maybe Jangbi, who go on a good run in the SPL and are put on the power-rank. I think that's got to do with the fact that the Power-rank weights recent games far more heavily. If one looks at their long-run win ratios, there's definitely a distinction between the cream of the crop guys: Inno, SK, sOs, Flash, Rain and the good players who can go on streaks: Jangbi, Fantasy, Jaehoon/Argo, Baby.
Also eSF players need to get a team league where they actually regularly play games.
sorry but that's nothing SC2 specific. German football Bundesliga last season: Even the very best teams in other sports like football will only sometimes reach like 80% winrate. E.g. german Bundesliga champion Bayern Munich had 82% winrate last season. the runner up Borrusia Dormund had already only 55% winrate.
No it's not SC2 specific and football is another example of a 'volatile' game. Except bear in mind that in SC2 there's generally only two possible results: win or loss. In football, draws erode the win rate significantly.
Glad you brought up the football example though. Again, you determine the best team over the course of a season, not over 1 game.
Let us suppose BM = Innovation, in other words, performs very well in the national league (SPL) AND in the Champions League (GSL) and contrast to a team that performed very well in the national league but not well at all in the champions league: Manchester City (I dunno, Flash?). Actually good example because they were in the Group of Death with Borussia Dortmund and Real Madrid.
I think most people would still regard Manchester City as one of the top 10 teams in the world. On the other hand you have a team like Chelsea which WON the Champions League but did poorly in their national league and in that year, not many would have considered them a top 10 team.
Yeah, the draws of course play a role. Though I'd really love to know what you consider a non-volatile game/sports? I'd say football is really, really solid - as well as Bo5 or Bo7 SC2 series. Bo3 and especially Bo1 less so, which is one of the reasons why I think teamleagues in Starcraft don't express skill as much, as they are all Bo1's.
And to your examples: I'd say that Leverkusen or Schalke could become german champions currently. Do I think that they can win the champions league? Not really. Same thing goes for every national league in soccer. I can see all of those teams do well, for as long as they play 90% of the time against lowerrated opponents and only 10% of the time against equals/better ones. But in the champions league, it's rather that 90% of the teams they face are equal/better and only 10% lower rated.
For starcraft players that means that I think every Premiere League player could achieve a top5 spot in teamleauge statistics, because the amount of wins against lowerrated opponents is mostly a result of how much they get used overall and should be very even (and high) for all of them if they get used equally often. But what really determines how good they are can only be seen by watching the highest level. Of course there can be upsets (like Chelsea/Porto winning the CL and ManCity being defeated early), but in the special case of Flash I don't see this. He barely didn't get into Code S 2times in a row against "lowlevel Code S players". Now he is struggling to get past "highlevel Code S players" in the Ro16. His performances at the highest level are very steadily lower than top8 for quite some time now.
Yeah, ManCity is a really good comparison to Flash. Because up to now they haven't achieved anything in the CL that would rate them top10, yet many experts would do so. Still, they'd probably rate Bayern, Dortmund, Real, Barcelona and ManUtd higher, because they are all pretty beastly in their respective leagues as well AND have had better results in the CL. And I'd expect a similar treatment for Flash (and Fantasy and Jangbi) in SC2 Powerranks.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
The sample size 'argument' is legit. if you want to know who the best players are, you have to look at statistics. Considering how volatile a game like SC2 is, where even the best players can't get above 70% win ratio, you need a larger sample of games to get an accurate picture. WCS KR has the highest calibre of play, but the low sample size is really volatile. It took DRG some time to get into Code S, even when he was clearly world class from his GSTL performances. At the same time, you get guys like Sniper or Seed, who have a good run and win Code S and then fall out very quickly.
people moaned about OSL's bo1 format in R32. 'cause it's volatile, 'cause the better player might lose 1 game but could've won in a bo3. The same principle applies here and quite frankly in a game like SC2, even bo3s and bo5s are very volatile.
If a good player goes on a good-run of say twelve games, he'll get into the ro8, yet over a larger sample of games, that result may simply be due to variance and his avg win rate may be much lower. Conversely, a very good player (i.e Life) may go on a slump for a bit, yet over a large sample, he's still world-class.
The top players in SPL do tend also to be the top players in WCS KR. People have been predicting sOs to break through in WCS KR after his win ratio in SPL. Could've predicted the same with SK and Innovation as well. Rain and Flash, they haven't done as well, yet I'd expect them to eventually break through in individual-leagues in the long-run.
The problem is when guys like Fantasy and maybe Jangbi, who go on a good run in the SPL and are put on the power-rank. I think that's got to do with the fact that the Power-rank weights recent games far more heavily. If one looks at their long-run win ratios, there's definitely a distinction between the cream of the crop guys: Inno, SK, sOs, Flash, Rain and the good players who can go on streaks: Jangbi, Fantasy, Jaehoon/Argo, Baby.
Also eSF players need to get a team league where they actually regularly play games.
sorry but that's nothing SC2 specific. German football Bundesliga last season: Even the very best teams in other sports like football will only sometimes reach like 80% winrate. E.g. german Bundesliga champion Bayern Munich had 82% winrate last season. the runner up Borrusia Dormund had already only 55% winrate.
No it's not SC2 specific and football is another example of a 'volatile' game. Except bear in mind that in SC2 there's generally only two possible results: win or loss. In football, draws erode the win rate significantly.
Glad you brought up the football example though. Again, you determine the best team over the course of a season, not over 1 game.
Let us suppose BM = Innovation, in other words, performs very well in the national league (SPL) AND in the Champions League (GSL) and contrast to a team that performed very well in the national league but not well at all in the champions league: Manchester City (I dunno, Flash?). Actually good example because they were in the Group of Death with Borussia Dortmund and Real Madrid.
I think most people would still regard Manchester City as one of the top 10 teams in the world. On the other hand you have a team like Chelsea which WON the Champions League but did poorly in their national league and in that year, not many would have considered them a top 10 team.
Yeah, the draws of course play a role. Though I'd really love to know what you consider a non-volatile game/sports? I'd say football is really, really solid - as well as Bo5 or Bo7 SC2 series. Bo3 and especially Bo1 less so, which is one of the reasons why I think teamleagues in Starcraft don't express skill as much, as they are all Bo1's.
And to your examples: I'd say that Leverkusen or Schalke could become german champions currently. Do I think that they can win the champions league? Not really. Same thing goes for every national league in soccer. I can see all of those teams do well, for as long as they play 90% of the time against lowerrated opponents and only 10% of the time against equals/better ones. But in the champions league, it's rather that 90% of the teams they face are equal/better and only 10% lower rated.
For starcraft players that means that I think every Premiere League player could achieve a top5 spot in teamleauge statistics, because the amount of wins against lowerrated opponents is mostly a result of how much they get used overall and should be very even (and high) for all of them if they get used equally often. But what really determines how good they are can only be seen by watching the highest level. Of course there can be upsets (like Chelsea/Porto winning the CL and ManCity being defeated early), but in the special case of Flash I don't see this. He barely didn't get into Code S 2times in a row against "lowlevel Code S players". Now he is struggling to get past "highlevel Code S players" in the Ro16. His performances at the highest level are very steadily lower than top8 for quite some time now.
Yeah, ManCity is a really good comparison to Flash. Because up to now they haven't achieved anything in the CL that would rate them top10, yet many experts would do so. Still, they'd probably rate Bayern, Dortmund, Real, Barcelona and ManUtd higher, because they are all pretty beastly in their respective leagues as well AND have had better results in the CL. And I'd expect a similar treatment for Flash (and Fantasy and Jangbi) in SC2 Powerranks.
I'd say a non-volatile game would be Chess, or Go. Where the better player will rarely lose to a lesser-skilled opponent.There's no existence of build-order loss like you get in SC2.
In the case of Flash. It's safe to say he's no way near his prime in BW, but I do think that he will break out in individual leagues eventually. He's been put in two groups of death, having the unfortunate luck of facing Innovation each time. Ro16 is especially bad since it's still Bo3.
The whole Team league performance doesn't express skill because it's 'bo1' is not really true over a large sample of games. Individual bo1s are volatile. 100 bo1s really aren't. In fact they're a whole lot less volatile than a bo3, bo5 or bo7. maybe one can point to differences in preparation. I'm not sure what the differences would be. In SPL, players prepare extensively, just as they would in an individual tournament. Perhaps lesser skilled players are more inclined to cheese in a bo1. I don't know.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
I wouldn't be against a separate rank for PL players as the creators of these rankings lean so heavily towards proleague results that it makes having the rest of the players pointless.
Next month Fantasy will just be replaced by whatever player does well in proleague...
Honestly, a seperate ranking is required. Having a top10 where half the players get basically a second chance is laughable.
Did you ever think about why power rank was reintroduced only after SPL started, even though it was one of the most required features since the start of SC2? Yes, because there was not enough games before...
btw do you also want to ignore GSTL? And why don't we also ignore MLG since it is in America and not all the Kespa players can participate? And what about Dreamhack? Or ASUS RoG? Or WCS EU/AM? Or any arbitralily chosen tournament?
For starcraft players that means that I think every Premiere League player could achieve a top5 spot in teamleauge statistics, because the amount of wins against lowerrated opponents is mostly a result of how much they get used overall and should be very even (and high) for all of them if they get used equally often.
And yet they are not. Flash is the best performer in SPL and (I guess) Ryung (or Keen) is in GSTL..
For starcraft players that means that I think every Premiere League player could achieve a top5 spot in teamleauge statistics, because the amount of wins against lowerrated opponents is mostly a result of how much they get used overall and should be very even (and high) for all of them if they get used equally often.
And yet they are not. Flash is the best performer in SPL and (I guess) Ryung (or Keen) is in GSTL..
Flash, Rain, sOs, Innovation are all having the same stats. Flash was used a little more, so he has a little more wins (and more losses). Zest, Roro, Soulkey, free also have similar success when being used, but are again used a little less. It's really just a matter of how many games a player gets to play, that determines the exact proleague ranking. It as little to do with "who's better".
For starcraft players that means that I think every Premiere League player could achieve a top5 spot in teamleauge statistics, because the amount of wins against lowerrated opponents is mostly a result of how much they get used overall and should be very even (and high) for all of them if they get used equally often.
And yet they are not. Flash is the best performer in SPL and (I guess) Ryung (or Keen) is in GSTL..
Flash, Rain, sOs, Innovation are all having the same stats. Flash was used a little more, so he has a little more wins (and more losses). Zest, Roro, Soulkey, free also have similar success when being used, but are again used a little less. It's really just a matter of how many games a player gets to play, that determines the exact proleague ranking. It as little to do with "who's better".
I'm on your side. Rain had a higher Win ratio and decent amount of game played. I would argue he is the better player in Proeague than Flash. But if you think about it, innovation is far more reliable than both of the players in critical matches. So the proleague ranking is misleading a little here.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
The sample size 'argument' is legit. if you want to know who the best players are, you have to look at statistics. Considering how volatile a game like SC2 is, where even the best players can't get above 70% win ratio, you need a larger sample of games to get an accurate picture. WCS KR has the highest calibre of play, but the low sample size is really volatile. It took DRG some time to get into Code S, even when he was clearly world class from his GSTL performances. At the same time, you get guys like Sniper or Seed, who have a good run and win Code S and then fall out very quickly.
people moaned about OSL's bo1 format in R32. 'cause it's volatile, 'cause the better player might lose 1 game but could've won in a bo3. The same principle applies here and quite frankly in a game like SC2, even bo3s and bo5s are very volatile.
If a good player goes on a good-run of say twelve games, he'll get into the ro8, yet over a larger sample of games, that result may simply be due to variance and his avg win rate may be much lower. Conversely, a very good player (i.e Life) may go on a slump for a bit, yet over a large sample, he's still world-class.
The top players in SPL do tend also to be the top players in WCS KR. People have been predicting sOs to break through in WCS KR after his win ratio in SPL. Could've predicted the same with SK and Innovation as well. Rain and Flash, they haven't done as well, yet I'd expect them to eventually break through in individual-leagues in the long-run.
The problem is when guys like Fantasy and maybe Jangbi, who go on a good run in the SPL and are put on the power-rank. I think that's got to do with the fact that the Power-rank weights recent games far more heavily. If one looks at their long-run win ratios, there's definitely a distinction between the cream of the crop guys: Inno, SK, sOs, Flash, Rain and the good players who can go on streaks: Jangbi, Fantasy, Jaehoon/Argo, Baby.
Also eSF players need to get a team league where they actually regularly play games.
sorry but that's nothing SC2 specific. German football Bundesliga last season: Even the very best teams in other sports like football will only sometimes reach like 80% winrate. E.g. german Bundesliga champion Bayern Munich had 82% winrate last season. the runner up Borrusia Dormund had already only 55% winrate.
No it's not SC2 specific and football is another example of a 'volatile' game. Except bear in mind that in SC2 there's generally only two possible results: win or loss. In football, draws erode the win rate significantly.
Glad you brought up the football example though. Again, you determine the best team over the course of a season, not over 1 game.
Let us suppose BM = Innovation, in other words, performs very well in the national league (SPL) AND in the Champions League (GSL) and contrast to a team that performed very well in the national league but not well at all in the champions league: Manchester City (I dunno, Flash?). Actually good example because they were in the Group of Death with Borussia Dortmund and Real Madrid.
I think most people would still regard Manchester City as one of the top 10 teams in the world. On the other hand you have a team like Chelsea which WON the Champions League but did poorly in their national league and in that year, not many would have considered them a top 10 team.
Yeah, the draws of course play a role. Though I'd really love to know what you consider a non-volatile game/sports? I'd say football is really, really solid - as well as Bo5 or Bo7 SC2 series. Bo3 and especially Bo1 less so, which is one of the reasons why I think teamleagues in Starcraft don't express skill as much, as they are all Bo1's.
And to your examples: I'd say that Leverkusen or Schalke could become german champions currently. Do I think that they can win the champions league? Not really. Same thing goes for every national league in soccer. I can see all of those teams do well, for as long as they play 90% of the time against lowerrated opponents and only 10% of the time against equals/better ones. But in the champions league, it's rather that 90% of the teams they face are equal/better and only 10% lower rated.
For starcraft players that means that I think every Premiere League player could achieve a top5 spot in teamleauge statistics, because the amount of wins against lowerrated opponents is mostly a result of how much they get used overall and should be very even (and high) for all of them if they get used equally often. But what really determines how good they are can only be seen by watching the highest level. Of course there can be upsets (like Chelsea/Porto winning the CL and ManCity being defeated early), but in the special case of Flash I don't see this. He barely didn't get into Code S 2times in a row against "lowlevel Code S players". Now he is struggling to get past "highlevel Code S players" in the Ro16. His performances at the highest level are very steadily lower than top8 for quite some time now.
Yeah, ManCity is a really good comparison to Flash. Because up to now they haven't achieved anything in the CL that would rate them top10, yet many experts would do so. Still, they'd probably rate Bayern, Dortmund, Real, Barcelona and ManUtd higher, because they are all pretty beastly in their respective leagues as well AND have had better results in the CL. And I'd expect a similar treatment for Flash (and Fantasy and Jangbi) in SC2 Powerranks.
I'd say a non-volatile game would be Chess, or Go. Where the better player will rarely lose to a lesser-skilled opponent.There's no existence of build-order loss like you get in SC2.
In the case of Flash. It's safe to say he's no way near his prime in BW, but I do think that he will break out in individual leagues eventually. He's been put in two groups of death, having the unfortunate luck of facing Innovation each time. Ro16 is especially bad since it's still Bo3.
The whole Team league performance doesn't express skill because it's 'bo1' is not really true over a large sample of games. Individual bo1s are volatile. 100 bo1s really aren't. In fact they're a whole lot less volatile than a bo3, bo5 or bo7. maybe one can point to differences in preparation. I'm not sure what the differences would be. In SPL, players prepare extensively, just as they would in an individual tournament. Perhaps lesser skilled players are more inclined to cheese in a bo1. I don't know.
And i want to add one more argument to the illegitimacy of proleague performance, at least partial illegitimacy. 1. The critical thing about proleague is how the coach arrange the players' sequence before the match. The best player to the mid-class opponents. The worst to their best...etc. Therefore, a better coach will definitely increase the win-rate of a player, while the worse opposite. On the other hand, on individual leagues, you mostly face the best of best instead of the low-tier players. So, in any giving time,i will rank Symbol higher than Flash. 2. The map plays such a important role in proleague. You got to prepare one map instead of a sequences really helped those with clear weakness in skills. A good example will be Zest or Stats, both performed excellent in Proleague, but failed in individual.
The top proleague players may not do well in individual leagues while those who do well in individual leagues did well in proleagues.
Therefore, its much accurate to judge player's level from individual leagues than from PL.
On July 19 2013 18:04 PerSe wrote: Flash is just a better player than Symbol. Getting a high win-ratio and the most wins in SPL is more impressive than Ro8 finishes given the amount of games you have to play in SPL and the consistency you have to show. People say Hero/Taeja are EG-TL's aces, yet they can barely get over a 50% win ratio.
Fact of the matter is, Bo3s in tournaments like the GSL have high variance due to the low number of games (especially when you happen to be in the Group of Death), whereas in an entire season of SPL, the amount of games reduce the variance to the extent that you can really tell who the best players are accurately (in SPL).
Innovation, Flash, Rain, Soulkey, sOs
Granted WCS KR has better players, but weighting WCS KR significantly over say, an entire season of SPL, doesn't make sense with regards to statistics, only with regards to hype ('cause it's an individual tournament and the GSL).
Lmao this is exactly why I dislike weighing PL so heavily for Power Rank. You make that sample size argument and suddenly you can justify having a bunch of PR slots filled by players who are doing well in Proleague no matter what the results are outside of Proleague. Basically you're advocating for a Power Rank where a bunch of players get spots for doing well in their isolated little arena while disregarding any outside results because there just aren't enough games.
What you're suggesting means that Kespa players will always be hugely favored to take a bunch of spots on the Power Rank solely due to the fact that they get to play in Proleague which has so many games in the course of its season.
I wouldn't be against a separate rank for PL players as the creators of these rankings lean so heavily towards proleague results that it makes having the rest of the players pointless.
Next month Fantasy will just be replaced by whatever player does well in proleague...
Honestly, a seperate ranking is required. Having a top10 where half the players get basically a second chance is laughable.
Did you ever think about why power rank was reintroduced only after SPL started, even though it was one of the most required features since the start of SC2? Yes, because there was not enough games before...
btw do you also want to ignore GSTL? And why don't we also ignore MLG since it is in America and not all the Kespa players can participate? And what about Dreamhack? Or ASUS RoG? Or WCS EU/AM? Or any arbitralily chosen tournament?
I understand there were not enough games, however the way it is done now it is incredible biassed to proleague players and that is a fact you cannot disagree with. Want to remove the GSTL from this as well? fine by me. Foreigner tournaments? Like they ever count or in rare cases like with Polt. If they want to do it like now they should just call it Proleague rankings or KeSPA rankings since its more accurate considering the way stats are taken.
On July 19 2013 20:41 Daswollvieh wrote: With proleague being a closed competition, I´d even be inclined to ignore it altogether. Sure you see a lot and it´s just an article, but in order to have a proper power rank, you have to have proper competition, and that is not given within the pond (though it´s a shark pond) of PL. So, for me, the argument of a greater number of games can very well be disregarded, because it is a closed competition, while WCS is open and thus more competitive.
Yeah that was a point that I kind of alluded to by mentioning "isolated little arena" in my post, thanks for expanding on it (although I do think ignoring it altogether is a bit drastic).
It rubs me the wrong way that they put so much weight on PL in the Power Rank when there isn't even an Up/Downs for PL, which implies that possibly not the most deserving teams are playing in it. For example, who knows, maybe MVP, IM, or Startale would do better than EGTL/T8/CJ. It simply looks a little silly when you give players so much credit for doing well in a closed competition when players in the closed competition are dropping significant amounts of games to non-Kespa players in open competition tournaments like MLG, WCS KR, and WCS AM/EU Qualifiers.
On July 19 2013 20:41 Daswollvieh wrote: With proleague being a closed competition, I´d even be inclined to ignore it altogether. Sure you see a lot and it´s just an article, but in order to have a proper power rank, you have to have proper competition, and that is not given within the pond (though it´s a shark pond) of PL. So, for me, the argument of a greater number of games can very well be disregarded, because it is a closed competition, while WCS is open and thus more competitive.
Yeah that was a point that I kind of alluded to by mentioning "isolated little arena" in my post, thanks for expanding on it (although I do think ignoring it altogether is a bit drastic).
It rubs me the wrong way that they put so much weight on PL in the Power Rank when there isn't even an Up/Downs for PL, which implies that possibly not the most deserving teams are playing in it. For example, who knows, maybe MVP, IM, or Startale would do better than EGTL/T8/CJ. It simply looks a little silly when you give players so much credit for doing well in a closed competition when players in the closed competition are dropping significant amounts of games to non-Kespa players in open competition tournaments like MLG, WCS KR, and WCS AM/EU Qualifiers.
Okay, but are these non-PL players doing consistently well?
Symbol is alright (with his ZvT full of all-ins not exactly inspiring), but he's definitely a few notches below SK. Bomber...no elaboration needed.
Who else? I would gladly give that parting and life performed well for a period of time but these players have likewise fallen off the radar. If parting went 3-0 I would have no hesitation placing him at #4 or even #3. Unfortunately he didn't. Don't say we're being unfair. PL games are still games.
On July 19 2013 20:41 Daswollvieh wrote: With proleague being a closed competition, I´d even be inclined to ignore it altogether. Sure you see a lot and it´s just an article, but in order to have a proper power rank, you have to have proper competition, and that is not given within the pond (though it´s a shark pond) of PL. So, for me, the argument of a greater number of games can very well be disregarded, because it is a closed competition, while WCS is open and thus more competitive.
Yeah that was a point that I kind of alluded to by mentioning "isolated little arena" in my post, thanks for expanding on it (although I do think ignoring it altogether is a bit drastic).
It rubs me the wrong way that they put so much weight on PL in the Power Rank when there isn't even an Up/Downs for PL, which implies that possibly not the most deserving teams are playing in it. For example, who knows, maybe MVP, IM, or Startale would do better than EGTL/T8/CJ. It simply looks a little silly when you give players so much credit for doing well in a closed competition when players in the closed competition are dropping significant amounts of games to non-Kespa players in open competition tournaments like MLG, WCS KR, and WCS AM/EU Qualifiers.
Okay, but are these non-PL players doing consistently well?
Symbol is alright (with his ZvT full of all-ins not exactly inspiring), but he's definitely a few notches below SK. Bomber...no elaboration needed.
Who else? I would gladly give that parting and life performed well for a period of time but these players have likewise fallen off the radar. If parting went 3-0 I would have no hesitation placing him at #4 or even #3. Unfortunately he didn't. Don't say we're being unfair. PL games are still games.
Well, first of all, you didn't address the problem with PL being a closed tournament at all.
My point is that by the logic of people talking about sample sizes and variance, in a non-PL setting you can often claim that no one is really doing consistently well because they don't get to play enough games to show that they're doing consistently well. And even if someone is doing "consistently well" outside of Proleague (as in, winning in the few games we do see them in), Proleague will always give overwhelmingly ample opportunity for a player to show his consistency even more compellingly due to the sheer amount of games played.
Note that my issue was never with Innovation and SK being high on the Power Rank, because they've proved themselves not only in PL but also hugely in WCS. I was more talking about the placements of players like Jangbi and Fantasy - essentially, players who are on the Power Rank solely due to a strong month in Proleague. I don't dispute that Symbol is below Soulkey - I don't think any sane person would, but is Symbol, who consistently places very high in individual league tournaments (Ro8/Semis/finals) below Fantasy and Jangbi?
The main point that you simply can't tiptoe around is that again, by the logic of the "sample size" argument, you're always gonna have players doing well in Proleague significantly populating the Power Rank while players with significant individual league achievements (long-term or short-term) get marginalized due to how less games are played for them. What's the point of a Power Rank that's supposed to include everyone if you're just going to do that?
The other key point someone else made is that a lot of the records for stronger PL players are significantly bolstered by them essentially farming wins off of weaker PL players (we know that the gap between top Kespa players like Innovation, Flash, or Soulkey and mid/low-tier Kespa players is fairly significant) over the course of the season. Meanwhile, although there are far fewer games in individual leagues, the way brackets work means that as you advance further in an individual tournament, you face increasingly steeper competition, so of course it'll be harder to appear consistent. Furthermore, if you lose a couple Bo3s in an individual tournament, you're done. You're eliminated. You don't get a chance to show that it may have just been a hiccup, and that you're still a good player. Meanwhile, in Proleague, you can go on a 3 or 4-game losing streak and then win 12 games in a row after that, and then you're sitting pretty at 12-4 and still look like a beast. Individual league players don't have that luxury.
There are simply too many problems with putting that much emphasis on PL results.
So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
If you want to talk about the validity of grinding games against weak opponents, then let's have a look.
Some of Flash's wins this season:
Zenio, Savage, Hope, Bbyong, Paralyze, Best, Turn, JYP, Last, Rare, Terminator, Alive, TY, Cure, Bong, Hydra, Effort, Major, and Hammer. Those are 19 wins right there (I think there are multiple wins against Effort, but to keep it simple, let's just say 19), which contributes to over half of the wins Flash has accumulated.
Now, I realize that some names are definitely weaker than others and that some players there like Effort and Hydra have actually done pretty well in Proleague, but the point I'm trying to make here is that when you talk about Proleague record and cite 37-18 it looks really damn impressive especially when you call Proleague the most competitive team league, but when you look at the quality of the opponents in a larger scope, a lot of those names are only Code A-worthy, and some of them aren't even that.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
For starcraft players that means that I think every Premiere League player could achieve a top5 spot in teamleauge statistics, because the amount of wins against lowerrated opponents is mostly a result of how much they get used overall and should be very even (and high) for all of them if they get used equally often.
And yet they are not. Flash is the best performer in SPL and (I guess) Ryung (or Keen) is in GSTL..
Flash, Rain, sOs, Innovation are all having the same stats. Flash was used a little more, so he has a little more wins (and more losses). Zest, Roro, Soulkey, free also have similar success when being used, but are again used a little less. It's really just a matter of how many games a player gets to play, that determines the exact proleague ranking. It as little to do with "who's better".
I'm on your side. Rain had a higher Win ratio and decent amount of game played. I would argue he is the better player in Proeague than Flash. But if you think about it, innovation is far more reliable than both of the players in critical matches. So the proleague ranking is misleading a little here.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
If there will be a foreign power rank then Dayshi should be #1 because he's at 21-8 and 72% win rate in the ATC. Naniwa can maybe be around 8-10 for his individual runs I think as he has not yet proved himself in the toughest teamleague.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
You're naming exceptions and also not mentioning Code A/challenger or up n down or qualifiers. Not every proleague player is Code S level.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
You're naming exceptions and also not mentioning Code A/challenger or up n down or qualifiers. Not every proleague player is Code S level.
Obviously I'm naming exceptions; that's the whole point to arguing against something always being the case...? I only brought up three examples off the top of my head. I don't pay as much attention to code A, so they weren't the first examples to come to mind.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list.
He said earlier that Proleague shouldn't be considered and that it should be a different power rank entirely. Given that often the top players in the OSL/GSL haven't played in foreign tournaments recently (especially the Kespa players) and the season finals only happen 3 times a year, the list would literally just be who's winning the most games in the OSL/GSL. At least this sparks a lot of discussion and debate; that would just boring and pointless.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote: [quote]
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list.
He said earlier that Proleague shouldn't be considered and that it should be a different power rank entirely. Given that often the top players in the OSL/GSL haven't played in foreign tournaments recently (especially the Kespa players) and the season finals only happen 3 times a year, the list would literally just be who's winning the most games in the OSL/GSL. At least this sparks a lot of discussion and debate; that would just boring and pointless.
I don't agree with that either, it should certainly take every tournament into consideration and also the quality of play in games won or lost.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
But I'm not saying that you should only look at the OSL/GSL. I'm saying that individual leagues and Proleague should be considered EQUALLY. That's what I've always been advocating for, and that's the policy that I'm trying to call for with the arguments that I'm making. And yes, if you're in the Ro8 of the OSL or WCS Korea then I think you deserve just as much weight on a Power Rank as you'd get if you had a nice string of wins in Proleague, especially if you've already established yourself as a Code S regular.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote: [quote]
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
Power Ranking is a list of the players who are looking the best at the moment. I think he's arguing that they should factor in individual league success a little more than they did for this list.
He said earlier that Proleague shouldn't be considered and that it should be a different power rank entirely. Given that often the top players in the OSL/GSL haven't played in foreign tournaments recently (especially the Kespa players) and the season finals only happen 3 times a year, the list would literally just be who's winning the most games in the OSL/GSL. At least this sparks a lot of discussion and debate; that would just boring and pointless.
I only suggested that as an alternative to what we have now if people can't figure out a good way to weigh Proleague and individual results evenly because they feel to strongly about the sample size/variance argument that people were discussing earlier. I'd be perfectly fine with a single Power Rank that considers both Individual league and Proleague results if the writers showed less preference toward Proleague results and gave more consideration toward the arguments I've been making.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
"In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated"
I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote: [quote]
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
"In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated"
I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance.
I think you're nitpicking his wording. Add in the word "usually" to what he said and his argument is essentially the same. Can we please move on from arguing over a single missing word that has nothing to do with anything?
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
[quote]
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
"In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated"
I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance.
I think you're nitpicking his wording. Add in the word "usually" to what he said and his argument is essentially the same. Can we please move on from arguing over a single missing word that has nothing to do with anything?
Lol yeah I've already admitted to saying that I meant that there's a tendency toward things getting more difficult. Of course it isn't a guarantee. All of my other points still stand as far as I know. When I've typed as many words as I've already contributed to this topic it's hard to not have some little technical slipups xD
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote:
On July 20 2013 06:48 Ammanas wrote: So then, the questions stands, how would you do the power rank then? Simply ignoring the games played in the most competitive league in Starcraft (this is a fact stated by several people, including TL and EG CEOs and their players, read the article on Polygon on that topic if you don't believe me)? Or what exactly would you do?
Also, "grinding games against weak opponents" is pretty unfair - 7 players sent on regular Proleague games are mostly all very good - of course there are regulars who suck (like Zenio, Stork , Bang...) but most of them are on very high level.
At the end, yes, I do think JangBi (and around 10 other SPL players - Fantasy not being one of them right now even though I am a fan, also none of the Kespa players that were eliminated in Ro16 OSL besides Flash) are better then Symbol, Maru or Supernova.
And one more thing - they are not putting SUCH an emphasis on PL results, they are putting emphasis on all the results. Proleague just tends to have more of them. It will probably change for coming months, since there will be almost no Proleague.
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
But I'm not saying that you should only look at the OSL/GSL. I'm saying that individual leagues and Proleague should be considered EQUALLY. That's what I've always been advocating for, and that's the policy that I'm trying to call for with the arguments that I'm making. And yes, if you're in the Ro8 of the OSL or WCS Korea then I think you deserve just as much weight on a Power Rank as you'd get if you had a nice string of wins in Proleague, especially if you've already established yourself as a Code S regular.
Ok, but the Ro8 participants have only just been decided. For this power rank, only the Ro32 results were in. Five of the players on the list made it to the Ro16, the bottom three aren't in WCS KR, and sOs just made it to the previous GSL semi-finals and the season finals. Given that you could only really make an argument for a single person making it on just because of Proleague, it's really not as much of an issue as people are making it out to be.
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
[quote]
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
Also think about it this way. If you don't win the tournament (most of your examples are about winners), then the player that you lose to was most likely the toughest you faced in that tournament. So now look at every tournament run that didn't end in a win and you will see a VERY high tendency that the last player they faced(the one they lost to) was tougher than most of the players they faced earlier in the tournament. edit: arguing that what he said isn't true 100% of the time isn't a very good argument.
How is that an argument? Obviously sometimes you'll play your hardest competition in the finals. I never said that you wouldn't. I mean, do you want me to do some pain-staking research and list every example of when someone's faced easier opponents in subsequent rounds? I listed a few of them to show that it doesn't always happen like that. Obviously there are tons more.
If sometimes the competition gets stronger as you go through the individual tournament, then it supports his point, because that doesn't happen at all in proleague regular season, it's just random.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
"In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated"
I never argued against the competition in Proleague remaining mostly the same. I just said that it's not the case that you always play harder players in individual leagues as you advance.
I think you're nitpicking his wording. Add in the word "usually" to what he said and his argument is essentially the same. Can we please move on from arguing over a single missing word that has nothing to do with anything?
Not nitpicking at all, given that a lot of people on here have that actual mindset. Yeah, it was resolved with him a while ago; you're the one who stepped in and started arguing it.
On July 20 2013 07:15 painkilla wrote: We need to cut the crap about sample size and that's why PL results are weighted heavily. Those are excuses, not the real reason. Had random Kespa players like Pigbaby, Zero, Turn done as well as Jangbi, Fantasy, Flash in PL they would still not have been in those PR spots that the famous players occupied. TL writers are just BW fans and are eager to bring back the BW fan favorites to PR for good old times sake, and PL results that month gave the perfect excuse. Rain had terrible PL results that month but those were explained away because guess what, he is the OSL champion and another fan favorite (although I do think he deserved his spot). The last 3 spots are just political, given to please the esf fans, the underprpivileged group in TL. In short, the PR is rigged
(to elaborate, if any player would have such a streak as JangBi had during June in Proleague, he SHOULD and I believe he also WOULD be in power rank.)
On July 20 2013 07:15 HolyArrow wrote: [quote]
I've already suggested having a separate Power Rank for PL results, seems like the easiest and fairest solution so far although pretty inelegant.
I don't think that some of the players that get sent out on a regular basis are as good as you think they are. I don't know what your definition of "very high level" is, but the point I'm trying to make is that even though Proleague may be considered the most competitive league, we've seen Proleague regulars fall in many individual tournaments and tournament qualifiers lately to non-Proleague players, and that's what throws the rankings into contention, because if those Proleague regulars are representing their most competitive league in other events by merely trading evenly with non-Proleague players (Code A) or even outright losing to people they shouldn't really be losing to (like in WCS AM open qualifiers or to foreign team Koreans/foreigners at MLG), it just looks a little funny. And again, consider the fact that the most competitive league is a closed competition, which is problematic for reasons I've stated before.
On the other hand, the bottom Proleague players (meaning, not even in Top30) like hyvaa or soO are doing pretty well in WCS KR. Yes, some players lost in WCS AM qualifiers, but they were not Proleague regulars at all. They were just B-teamers, playing coaches etc..
(although, Stats only lost to Dear and JD, soO to Sage and Hyun (soO is pretty bad though, even though he is regular) and Dear to Polt and Naniwa (he should be ashamed ^^)
Also, Proleague is not closed competition. If you are interested in joining, you have the required 100k deposit and Kespa deems you good enough, I believe you could join. Somebody will have to replace EGTL anyway, cause I don't believe they are gonna continue in Proleague.
Lol it's effectively closed then, with such a high entry cost.
Hitman and Mini failed multiple times in WCS AM qualifiers, those aren't B-teamers or playing coaches, hitman fielded 9 times and Mini 12 times in PL. Seems regular enough to to me. I realize that they're lowish-tier PL players but again I'm just trying to illustrate the large spectrum of skill levels that we see in Proleague.
Some players only perform well in team leagues. Bisu maintained around a 70% win rate in Proleague in Brood War, yet time after time failed to even make it through the prelims in the OSL/MSL. Does this mean that he was a player with a low level of skill?
Nope, not at all.
You make a good point that some players only perform well in team leagues. And on the flip side, some players are better in individual leagues. Yet people who make the sample size/variance argument of why Proleague results should be emphasized are essentially advocating that players who are good in team league be favored over players who are good in individual leagues in terms of Power Rank exposure. Don't see how that's fair.
And again, I'd like to remind you of my point regarding the level of competition players face as time goes on in individual league vs. the same case for team league. In individual league, it gets steadily harder as you work your way through the bracket since players get weeded out when they're eliminated, and you run the risk of elimination yourself, which ends your run. In team league, you play the same pool of players over and over again, getting a lot of easier wins in the process, and even if you drop a string of games, you don't get eliminated. In that sense, individual league is harder to do well in than in a league like Proleague's format purely due to format differences. And I'm not even saying that individual league results should be prioritized over Proleague results, but rather that they should be equal.
Who says that the competition you face in an individual league gets steadily harder?
Flash's 2009 Ever OSL win:
Ro8: Jaedong, second best player in the world Ro4: Calm, not as good a player as Jaedong, but fresh off his MSL gold Finals: Movie, who made it to the finals mostly through his PvZ. The only terrans he played had sub-50% win rates.
Flash's ABC Mart MSL win:
Ro32: Bisu and Jaedong, two of the top players in the world Ro16: Really, a mediocre terran Ro8: Leta, with a 60% TvT win rate Ro4: Hydra, a mediocre ZvT player Finals: Zero, a decent ZvT player, but still not as much of a challenge as Jaedong, Bisu or Leta
There are plenty of other examples, like Sniper's GSL win where he plays players like Parting, sOs, Innovation, Leenock and Seed, then in the semi-finals plays Ryung, a mediocre TvZ player, and then Hyun, who'd barely played ZvZ for three months.
Just because someone makes it farther in an individual tournament doesn't mean that they're better than someone who didn't make it as far. Luck of the bracket plays a huge role, both in the strength of who you happen to face, and how good you are in that given match up. For example, Bomber just made it through into the OSL Ro8. He also happened to be in a group with three other terrans, and TvT is his only match up that's over 50%. If we'd had completely different groups, there's a very good chance that the Ro8 would look fairly different.
I didn't mean that it's guaranteed that the competition gets harder, but that there's a tendency. And even if I concede that point, there's still the fact that losing in an individual league leads to elimination while in Proleague's format, it doesn't, which leads to it being easier to look consistently good in Proleague, which is also a critical difference. Like I said earlier, lose 4 games in Proleague, have opportunity to win 12 games in a row afterwards, you're looking good. Lose 4 games in an individual league, and you're done. Then the Power Rank writers look at things and it looks like the individual league player bombed out 0-4 with nothing left to say, while the Proleague player is sitting comfortably at 12-4 and looking impressive. Individual league is inherently less forgiving for strong players than Proleague is, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
Ok, but so what? You get the stats from where you can. If you're basically just looking at OSL/GSL, then what's even the point? To say that the players in the Ro8 are looking the best at the moment?
But I'm not saying that you should only look at the OSL/GSL. I'm saying that individual leagues and Proleague should be considered EQUALLY. That's what I've always been advocating for, and that's the policy that I'm trying to call for with the arguments that I'm making. And yes, if you're in the Ro8 of the OSL or WCS Korea then I think you deserve just as much weight on a Power Rank as you'd get if you had a nice string of wins in Proleague, especially if you've already established yourself as a Code S regular.
Ok, but the Ro8 participants have only just been decided. For this power rank, only the Ro32 results were in. Five of the players on the list made it to the Ro16, the bottom three aren't in WCS KR, and sOs just made it to the previous GSL semi-finals and the season finals. Given that you could only really make an argument for a single person making it on just because of Proleague, it's really not as much of an issue as people are making it out to be.
Yeah that's true. A lot of the stuff I've been saying has been more directed toward what I feel the future Power Rank criteria should be, and toward voicing my disagreements with the arguments people have been making for why Proleague results should be favored above others.
Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games. And don't tell me, you think Maru and Supernova belong into list of 10 strongest players right now, just because they are in Ro8. God forbid if Trap would be the one making it out of that group (only one game that could go differently) - he is so bad..
On July 20 2013 16:45 Ammanas wrote: Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games.
Haha, that´s a bold statement to make. Also, if you mean by this giving single games of WCS and PL the same weight, then you did not understand HolyArrows point. It was that the many games of PL should not be rated over the fewer games of individual leagues. If you go by pure numbers, then the whole PR would be kespa players, because they have the (exclusive!) opportunity to play that many televised games. But that wouldn´t make sense, because in actually open competitions there are plenty of non-kespa players who perform equally well or better.
It´s sad, but I think it´s natural to rate more visible players higher. It´s the intuitive thing to do, but it leads to a onesided power rank. So yeah, I agree with previous posters in that future power ranks should rate the performance in individual leagues higher. And I believe that closed competition like that should not be promoted further. It´s bad enough for Starcraft as is.
On July 20 2013 17:58 monkybone wrote: Mvp is oddly placed. He definitely above Rain, SoS and jangbi. Polt is as well. But kespa bias is to be expected here.
However, this list has to be completely revised after the ro16. Where is bomber, atm he is at the very top of the world. Symbol too, not even in light of recent events, it is quite scandalous that he is not even in the list here. Instead we have players who are hardly competing in individual events.
Personally I think individual events should carry a lot more weight. It is more a reflection of a particular players skill, rather than a team. Let proleague and gstl determine the best team, and GSL/OSL and weekend events the best player.
It will be revised. On August 1st. Why should Bomber be in JUNE power rank, when he lost almost everything he touched in June.
On July 20 2013 16:45 Ammanas wrote: Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games.
Haha, that´s a bold statement to make. Also, if you mean by this giving single games of WCS and PL the same weight, then you did not understand HolyArrows point. It was that the many games of PL should not be rated over the fewer games of individual leagues. If you go by pure numbers, then the whole PR would be kespa players, because they have the (exclusive!) opportunity to play that many televised games. But that wouldn´t make sense, because in actually open competitions there are plenty of non-kespa players who perform equally well or better.
It´s sad, but I think it´s natural to rate more visible players higher. It´s the intuitive thing to do, but it leads to a onesided power rank. So yeah, I agree with previous posters in that future power ranks should rate the performance in individual leagues higher. And I believe that closed competition like that should not be promoted further. It´s bad enough for Starcraft as is.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
On July 20 2013 19:55 Ammanas wrote: Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
Because said individual leagues are open competitions, where the best from the complete player pool advance, instead of one section of players, competing amongst themselves. EDIT: You could compare it to football, where the most prestigious win is not that of a national league, but of the champions league, where essentially the best (though European only, but SC right now is pretty much Korean only in Korea) compete.
On July 20 2013 16:45 Ammanas wrote: Nobody ever said Proleague records should be favored. As you said, Proleague records and OSL/GSL records should be (and actually are) equal. Again, Proleague just has more games.
Haha, that´s a bold statement to make. Also, if you mean by this giving single games of WCS and PL the same weight, then you did not understand HolyArrows point. It was that the many games of PL should not be rated over the fewer games of individual leagues. If you go by pure numbers, then the whole PR would be kespa players, because they have the (exclusive!) opportunity to play that many televised games. But that wouldn´t make sense, because in actually open competitions there are plenty of non-kespa players who perform equally well or better.
It´s sad, but I think it´s natural to rate more visible players higher. It´s the intuitive thing to do, but it leads to a onesided power rank. So yeah, I agree with previous posters in that future power ranks should rate the performance in individual leagues higher. And I believe that closed competition like that should not be promoted further. It´s bad enough for Starcraft as is.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
Practice games... the sample size of those would completely roll over any proleague stat if we had access to them.
Of course the only thing that matters is
you, your opponent and the quality of play of both
But then you have to take a closer look than "he performed so well in proleague"-->some stats.
Which for example means that Fantasies 5-2 stats in Proleague Round 6 don't mean a lot, because he only went 1-1 against fellow premier league players (won one game against Flash. Lost one game against InNovation). So the number of really challenging games for him in proleague is 2. The other 5games are just a Code S player (which there are 32 of that are expected to perform similarily in the same situation) against a non-Code S player - admittetly, Fantasy is a Ro16 Code S player this season, but that doesn't give the role of the favorite to Snute, Reality... when they had played a different Code S player instead. Meanwhile in premier league he went 3-6. Samplesize of 9. Not to mention that he made it through some qualification process that can only be attented by those who are worthy. Not every player on a Kespateam by getting sent out.
Which - though noone could know how Fantasy would perform in the OSL - just shows of how little importance proleague stats actually are.
This is another reason why merging PL and GSTL would be amazing for the scene, we could actually get a better sense of how good players really are and be able to construct a more accurate power rank because we could have more games and more data on how players stack up.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
That's how it works. Overhype then disappointment. Bomber is probably going get 3-0ed in the Ro8 after failing 3 proxy raxes in a row. Or he'll qualify for the Season finals, but get eliminated in the group stages by Americans.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
That's how it works. Overhype then disappointment. Bomber is probably going get 3-0ed in the Ro8 after failing 3 proxy raxes in a row. Or he'll qualify for the Season finals, but get eliminated in the group stages by Americans.
That's not even what he said. He said he is on the top of the world right now, which he is, he also added symbol, so you can take the hint he doesn't mean he is the best, but they are right now at the top of the OSL with 6 more players, which is considered the pinnacle of individual leagues, hence top of the world.
I don't care about proleague to be honest, but i don't mind power rankings using it, but seems a bit strange to see teamleague/individual results mixed up. I don't think they should be equal, they should be what they are, different.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
What's wrong with you? Nobody mentioned Flash or anybody not caring about individual leagues. He said that players take individual leagues more seriously. I said that isn't the case.
I wouldn't call that an excuse. The teams and players have openly admitted the weight PL carries on their practice schedule. There are a few scenarios where they will go, "Okay, I made it to the Finals. Let's round up guys who can play style A/B/C so I have all the preparation I need for so-and-so in the final." That's just the way it works and dates back to the early BW days.
So what now then? Proleague will forever be taken priority over any other tournament since its apparently the only tournament KeSPA players give it their 100%? Might as well just remove everything else and call it Proleague rank.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
Just like Flash top 3 because of couple of PL wins?Ok.
P.S I like how you casually refer to probably the sickest run in a group stage of OSL/GSL for a long time, trouncing the best two Kespa terrans as "couple of Bo3".
On July 21 2013 10:56 Assirra wrote: So what now then? Proleague will forever be taken priority over any other tournament since its apparently the only tournament KeSPA players give it their 100%? Might as well just remove everything else and call it Proleague rank.
It's also the only tournament when you will see primarily (if not exclusively) KeSPA players fighting to stay in KeSPA. KeSPA teams are better trained, have better facilities and also offer glory to the players. I dunno about anyone else but I'd fight in the PL just to stay on those teams.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
Just like Flash top 3 because of couple of PL wins?Ok.
P.S I like how you casually refer to probably the sickest run in a group stage of OSL/GSL for a long time, trouncing the best two Kespa terrans as "couple of Bo3".
Are you trying to make the most nonsensical posts possible in here or something? First of all, Flash led Proleague in wins. That is more than a couple, and he also 2-0ed his Ro32 group when this power rank came out. Secondly, yes, Bomber played very well in those games. But, he's only shown exceptional play in a single match up, his other two are still below 50%, and regardless of how well you play in 4 games, you're not suddenly the best in the world because of them.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
Just like Flash top 3 because of couple of PL wins?Ok.
P.S I like how you casually refer to probably the sickest run in a group stage of OSL/GSL for a long time, trouncing the best two Kespa terrans as "couple of Bo3".
Are you trying to make the most nonsensical posts possible in here or something? First of all, Flash led Proleague in wins. That is more than a couple, and he also 2-0ed his Ro32 group when this power rank came out. Secondly, yes, Bomber played very well in those games. But, he's only shown exceptional play in a single match up, his other two are still below 50%, and regardless of how well you play in 4 games, you're not suddenly the best in the world because of them.
Does it look like I was trying to argue that Bomber should be best player in the world ? You refer to Bomber's run as couple of Bo3's, so guess what, any PL run can also be referred as couple of Bo1's. I was trying to point out your double standard. When it is Flash, Fantasy, you made great efforts to point out how sick these runs were, high level gameplay etc but when it is Bomber, it's just couple of Bo3's.
And what achieving the most wins has anything to do with PR ? If you told me Flash has 100 wins in PL, I still don't know how strong Flash is since for all I know Flash could be beating players like Pigbaby 100 times over.
On July 21 2013 10:56 Assirra wrote: So what now then? Proleague will forever be taken priority over any other tournament since its apparently the only tournament KeSPA players give it their 100%? Might as well just remove everything else and call it Proleague rank.
It's also the only tournament when you will see primarily (if not exclusively) KeSPA players fighting to stay in KeSPA. KeSPA teams are better trained, have better facilities and also offer glory to the players. I dunno about anyone else but I'd fight in the PL just to stay on those teams.
It really gets on my nerves when this type of self-importance arguments keep popping up. Reminds me of the time when Americans thought they were above everybody else in basketball, until they got their asses kicked in the Olympic. Same thing also happened with English national football team at some point.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
Just like Flash top 3 because of couple of PL wins?Ok.
P.S I like how you casually refer to probably the sickest run in a group stage of OSL/GSL for a long time, trouncing the best two Kespa terrans as "couple of Bo3".
Are you trying to make the most nonsensical posts possible in here or something? First of all, Flash led Proleague in wins. That is more than a couple, and he also 2-0ed his Ro32 group when this power rank came out. Secondly, yes, Bomber played very well in those games. But, he's only shown exceptional play in a single match up, his other two are still below 50%, and regardless of how well you play in 4 games, you're not suddenly the best in the world because of them.
Flash may be leading Proleague in wins, but by my analysis in an earlier post over half those wins were over Code A level or sub-Code A level players. Meanwhile, Bomber may have only won 2 Bo3s, but they were 2-0's against players that people consider the top 2 Terrans in the world. Not saying that one should carry more weight than the other because I agree that they were only TvT games and Bomber thus far as shown nothing to suggest that his TvP and TvZ are close to being as good. However, just mentioning those factors as food for thought because that brings us back to my other point about how individual league competition has the tendency to get increasingly difficult while in Proleague you play the same pool of players and you get a lot of easier wins against weak players if you're one of the top Proleague players due to significant gaps in skill in Proleague.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
Just like Flash top 3 because of couple of PL wins?Ok.
P.S I like how you casually refer to probably the sickest run in a group stage of OSL/GSL for a long time, trouncing the best two Kespa terrans as "couple of Bo3".
Are you trying to make the most nonsensical posts possible in here or something? First of all, Flash led Proleague in wins. That is more than a couple, and he also 2-0ed his Ro32 group when this power rank came out. Secondly, yes, Bomber played very well in those games. But, he's only shown exceptional play in a single match up, his other two are still below 50%, and regardless of how well you play in 4 games, you're not suddenly the best in the world because of them.
Does it look like I was trying to argue that Bomber should be best player in the world ? You refer to Bomber's run as couple of Bo3's, so guess what, any PL run can also be referred as couple of Bo1's. I was trying to point out your double standard. When it is Flash, Fantasy, you made great efforts to point out how sick these runs were, high level gameplay etc but when it is Bomber, it's just couple of Bo3's.
And what achieving the most wins has anything to do with PR ? If you told me Flash has 100 wins in PL, I still don't know how strong Flash is since for all I know Flash could be beating players like Pigbaby 100 times over.
No, because that makes zero sense. Two Bo3's is a couple of Bo3's. 37 wins is not a couple of wins. Do you know what the word means? It refers to the number two.
"I was trying to point out your double standard. When it is Flash, Fantasy, you made great efforts to point out how sick these runs were, high level gameplay etc"
What are you talking about? Have I even mentioned Fantasy a single time in this thread? And where have I said these things about Flash? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and are just making stuff up.
And yes, winning 100 games in a season against players like Pigbaby would be pretty damn impressive.
On July 20 2013 19:02 GolemMadness wrote: Bomber's the best in the world now because he won a couple of Bo3's? Ok.
Just like Flash top 3 because of couple of PL wins?Ok.
P.S I like how you casually refer to probably the sickest run in a group stage of OSL/GSL for a long time, trouncing the best two Kespa terrans as "couple of Bo3".
Are you trying to make the most nonsensical posts possible in here or something? First of all, Flash led Proleague in wins. That is more than a couple, and he also 2-0ed his Ro32 group when this power rank came out. Secondly, yes, Bomber played very well in those games. But, he's only shown exceptional play in a single match up, his other two are still below 50%, and regardless of how well you play in 4 games, you're not suddenly the best in the world because of them.
Flash may be leading Proleague in wins, but by my analysis in an earlier post over half those wins were over Code A level or sub-Code A level players. Meanwhile, Bomber may have only won 2 Bo3s, but they were 2-0's against players that people consider the top 2 Terrans in the world. Not saying that one should carry more weight than the other because I agree that they were only TvT games and Bomber thus far as shown nothing to suggest that his TvP and TvZ are close to being as good. However, just mentioning those factors as food for thought because that brings us back to my other point about how individual league competition has the tendency to get increasingly difficult while in Proleague you play the same pool of players and you get a lot of easier wins against weak players if you're one of the top Proleague players due to significant gaps in skill in Proleague.
I never said anything about how meaningful him leading Proleague in wins is. I just said that it's not a couple of wins, because it isn't.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
What's wrong with you? Nobody mentioned Flash or anybody not caring about individual leagues. He said that players take individual leagues more seriously. I said that isn't the case.
that´s bullshit and you know it. See what the individual leagues has made of innovation. It´s every pro gamers dream, they are undeniably taking individual leagues way more seriously.
On July 21 2013 09:37 StarStruck wrote: I wouldn't call that an excuse. The teams and players have openly admitted the weight PL carries on their practice schedule. There are a few scenarios where they will go, "Okay, I made it to the Finals. Let's round up guys who can play style A/B/C so I have all the preparation I need for so-and-so in the final." That's just the way it works and dates back to the early BW days.
That´s then, the business a whole different beast now with the GSL, WCS and international events.
Actually, no. Proleague is still the main focus of Kespa teams and players since, as was already said, this is where they get their salaries. Also, as a number of people already compared it, Proleague and individual leagues are like English Premier League and Champion's League in football. While Champion's League for sure has more prestige, the main focus of teams like Chelsea, Manchester United or Arsenal is always the trophy in their domestic league, Champion's League is 'only' an (amazing) bonus.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
What's wrong with you? Nobody mentioned Flash or anybody not caring about individual leagues. He said that players take individual leagues more seriously. I said that isn't the case.
that´s bullshit and you know it. See what the individual leagues has made of innovation. It´s every pro gamers dream, they are undeniably taking individual leagues way more seriously.
On July 21 2013 09:37 StarStruck wrote: I wouldn't call that an excuse. The teams and players have openly admitted the weight PL carries on their practice schedule. There are a few scenarios where they will go, "Okay, I made it to the Finals. Let's round up guys who can play style A/B/C so I have all the preparation I need for so-and-so in the final." That's just the way it works and dates back to the early BW days.
That´s then, the business a whole different beast now with the GSL, WCS and international events.
Tell that to KeSPA not me.
On July 21 2013 17:13 monk wrote: You've successfully awakened all the hipsters.
So the players are lying, coaches are lying, Kespa is lying, teams are lying, only you know the truth which is they actually focus on individual leagues. Ok then.
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
What's wrong with you? Nobody mentioned Flash or anybody not caring about individual leagues. He said that players take individual leagues more seriously. I said that isn't the case.
that´s bullshit and you know it. See what the individual leagues has made of innovation. It´s every pro gamers dream, they are undeniably taking individual leagues way more seriously.
On July 21 2013 09:37 StarStruck wrote: I wouldn't call that an excuse. The teams and players have openly admitted the weight PL carries on their practice schedule. There are a few scenarios where they will go, "Okay, I made it to the Finals. Let's round up guys who can play style A/B/C so I have all the preparation I need for so-and-so in the final." That's just the way it works and dates back to the early BW days.
That´s then, the business a whole different beast now with the GSL, WCS and international events.
What the individual leagues made of him? What does that even mean? Have you ever read any interview by any Kespa player?
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
What's wrong with you? Nobody mentioned Flash or anybody not caring about individual leagues. He said that players take individual leagues more seriously. I said that isn't the case.
that´s bullshit and you know it. See what the individual leagues has made of innovation. It´s every pro gamers dream, they are undeniably taking individual leagues way more seriously.
On July 21 2013 09:37 StarStruck wrote: I wouldn't call that an excuse. The teams and players have openly admitted the weight PL carries on their practice schedule. There are a few scenarios where they will go, "Okay, I made it to the Finals. Let's round up guys who can play style A/B/C so I have all the preparation I need for so-and-so in the final." That's just the way it works and dates back to the early BW days.
That´s then, the business a whole different beast now with the GSL, WCS and international events.
What the individual leagues made of him? What does that even mean? Have you ever read any interview by any Kespa player?
Have you?
I´m still not seeing any evidence.
My god. Found this in 30 seconds:
"I place a little more focus on the Proleague. In individual leagues, your bracket luck and condition on match days has to be good for you to progress."
Why should performance in individual leagues rated higher? A game is a game. Doesn't matter where it is played, only thing that matters is you, your opponent and the quality of play of both.
In a team match strategy is more of a team effort, it`s in the bo3´s and bo5´s where the real quality of 1v1 strategy comes into play. You know that´s the reason for the enigma of IM in teamleagues.
There´s also something to be said for the fact that in individual leagues there´s so much more at stake for you as a player, so you will naturally take it more seriously. Besides, it gives you a lot more time to prepare for your opponent, and preparation comes much more into play in a longer series such as bo3 or bo5. In team leagues you will have snipers, who prepare a certain build to beat his opponent. This simplistic way of preparing does not work in a longer series.
Everything about individual leagues says so much more of you as a player than teamleagues do.
Kespa players generally take Proleague more seriously than individual leagues. That's how they make their salaries.
What a sad excuse. Flash lost because he didn't care. OKAYYYYYYYYYY!
What's wrong with you? Nobody mentioned Flash or anybody not caring about individual leagues. He said that players take individual leagues more seriously. I said that isn't the case.
that´s bullshit and you know it. See what the individual leagues has made of innovation. It´s every pro gamers dream, they are undeniably taking individual leagues way more seriously.
On July 21 2013 09:37 StarStruck wrote: I wouldn't call that an excuse. The teams and players have openly admitted the weight PL carries on their practice schedule. There are a few scenarios where they will go, "Okay, I made it to the Finals. Let's round up guys who can play style A/B/C so I have all the preparation I need for so-and-so in the final." That's just the way it works and dates back to the early BW days.
That´s then, the business a whole different beast now with the GSL, WCS and international events.
What the individual leagues made of him? What does that even mean? Have you ever read any interview by any Kespa player?
Have you?
I´m still not seeing any evidence.
My god. Found this in 30 seconds:
"I place a little more focus on the Proleague. In individual leagues, your bracket luck and condition on match days has to be good for you to progress."
EPT
ST_Life: Let's take a second to take a look at how far Life has fallen. After HotS was released and Life won MLG Winter, he was considered one of the best, if not THE best player in the world. But in just the month of June, Life has:
prOp.SjoW: Props for giving us the biggest upset in SC2 since qxc over IM, Goody over Nestea, Thorzain over MC, or Adelscott over Mvp. I see a pretty good game resulted from this as well.
Alliance.NaNiwa: Kept foreigner hope alive by defeating Dear and Jaedong to place 4th at MLG Anaheim.. Is Stephano's reign over?!?!?!![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1849.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1856.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/590.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/63.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1101.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/LadderUp.png)
Won his first WCS Season Finals match against Symbol 2 - 0![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/LadderDown.png)
Surprisingly lost to European player ForGG and his excessive use of hellbats.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/697.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/647.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/663.jpg)
Naniwa stronk
Jürgen "Mvp" Jong Hyun
Pierre "forGG" Delacroix
Sam "aLive" Johnson
Foreigners fighting! ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/1/1a/LG-IMFirstMLG.jpg/300px-LG-IMFirstMLG.jpg)
