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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On June 21 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote: I think that combo of units comes down to who is better at the game and controlling their units. uhh...your comparing those two compositions? and your saying nothing of how marine maruader Medivac are available much sooner? Its useless comparing the two P.S. I was responding to Thieving Magpie...sorry | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
So all these claims of Protoss will now be IMBA because they will come in and warp 30 zealots in my base... are way overblown. Keep in mind that the warp prism can't move while it's warping stuff in. So the only impact of this change is that you'll be able to harass a little more with the 4 units that you can carry, and you might be able to save 4 units from dying. Anything else you warp in beyond those 4 units is not impacted in any way by the buff. This is purely an early game buff that should make things a little bit more interesting to watch in the period that Protoss can't really move out with its entire army but can do a little light harass. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:32 SuperYo1000 wrote: uhh...your comparing those two compositions? and your saying nothing of how marine maruader Medivac are available much sooner? Its useless comparing the two I wasn't. My initial post was showing that Marine/Maruader/Medivac beats Stalker/Zealot/Sentry because people consider Medivacs as teir 1 although they're closer to tier 3 I was reminding people that Stalker/Sentry/Zealot beats pure Marine/maruader If you get medivacs, then protoss also gets their own tech. If you get stim and shields, protoss gets fast +1/+1 At lategame your stim plus +3/+3 is better than protoss' +3/+3/+3, but protoss Templar/Colossus is better than terran's medivac/Ghost/Viking | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20327 Posts
On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote: I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. Indeed, macro terran can max before 15 mins. I've seen terran hit max at 14 minutes with 2-2 when i hit a high master quite a while ago and he knew i couldn't do anything to him, so 15-16 min max should come easy. Pretty hilarious to try to deal with that using gate units unless you count templar and preying for storms as gateway units. If you trade with him early and midgame as much as possible and run double forge, sure you can play gateway heavy for much longer than otherwise, but that's not exactly the best way to play PvT in most people's minds or we would see it more often I was reminding people that Stalker/Sentry/Zealot beats pure Marine/maruader In small numbers with good control, or in small/med numbers with good forcefields, other abilities or maybe an upgrade advantage (guardian shield in particular if terran can't micro to stop you from abusing them) then sure. Otherwise, you are delusional. Going past 100-150 supply without AOE unless you'll hit 3-3 vs 1-1 is asking to die horribly. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you.. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments... And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you.. Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays). Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:38 Cyro wrote: Indeed, macro terran can max before 15 mins. I've seen terran hit max at 14 minutes with 2-2 when i hit a high master quite a while ago and he knew i couldn't do anything to him, so 15-16 min max should come easy. Pretty hilarious to try to deal with that using gate units unless you count templar and preying for storms as gateway units. If you trade with him early and midgame as much as possible and run double forge, sure you can play gateway heavy for much longer than otherwise, but that's not exactly the best way to play PvT in most people's minds or we would see it more often In small numbers with good control, or in small/med numbers with good forcefields, other abilities or maybe an upgrade advantage (guardian shield in particular if terran can't micro to stop you from abusing them) then sure. Otherwise, you are delusional. Going past 100-150 supply without AOE unless you'll hit 3-3 vs 1-1 is asking to die horribly. You can get storm before 15 minutes, and good storm use is what got parting his notoriety. Once armies goes up to 100-150, you'll have zealot/archon/stalker + storms which is even enough vs Marine Marauder Medivac. The game is not played in a unit simulator, units are balanced based on timings, not hypotheticals. Parting and SoS shows its possible. DWF, a GM, says its possible. DWF has shown two replays of protoss players delaying robo for 20-30 minutes and still holding their own--so don't tell me it's impossible to do when there is evidence that it is. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:16 Thieving Magpie wrote: I'm sorry, Flash had 6 bases to Parting's 4--almost any other player would have outright died and no foreigner would even be considered in the running. Parting got out by talent and skill alone and he did it with nothing but gateways and his middle finger flipping a bird to god himself. Parting showed that you can be down 2 bases versus bio and still break even as be slowly clawed his way back up into the game. I don't think you understand the concept of "full foreigner". Of course no foreigner would have a chance in that spot 99 percent of the time, that's not the point. FLASH turned into the "foreigner" throwing a huge lead with derptastic unit control. | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays). Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority. 35% winrate for protoss in pvt? And you believe that? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays). Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority. Technically he's arguing from an expert of the field who plays the game who is citing 2 case studies that support his claim. "argument from authority" is problematic when you don't question your teachers or when you say "my boss says" or "my professor says," etc... When a GM acts as a witness to an observation and has case studies to show as a non-anecdotal evidence, it stops being an argument from authority. As for the winrates deal, I thought it was actually pretty even outside of Korea? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334576 | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:48 packrat386 wrote: This thread has literally just become an argument about whether PvT is imbalanced. Can we get this closed? Agreed. Think about the changes here. Warp prisms are slightly faster until Protoss researches Warp Prism speed. Then they are the same speed as before. This only impacts the 1-4 units that the Warp Prism is actually carrying, in the early game. The Warp Prism can't spawn units while it's moving. So maybe it sneaks into your base 0.4 speed faster? Is that what all the fuss is about? Keep in mind Warp Prisms are 4 times as big as Medivacs on the minimap. So they're much easier to see coming. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:47 Wingblade wrote: I don't think you understand the concept of "full foreigner". Of course no foreigner would have a chance in that spot 99 percent of the time, that's not the point. FLASH turned into the "foreigner" throwing a huge lead with derptastic unit control. You mean the same unit control he used to get his two base lead? He spent the entire game making trades in order to let his economic advantage push him towards victory. He continued on doing that in the lategame except that at that point Parting stabilized. He then, initially, transitioned to heavy Viking play thinking Parting would go Colossus. But then parting went Stargate forcing Flash to overbuild Vikings. But instead of pushing, Parting traded and began building up his army more. Flash, continued to tech and and decided to go BC. Terran air traded with protoss air but Parting squeezed in a few colossi and with warp in rounds was able to shift to a mainly ground based army after their 2nd big fight. It was obvious Flash normally beats most everyone he plays using that strategy. It's obvious he was used to a gg once you get that far. Parting's perseverance showed rattled flash, but it didn't break flash. Parting simply outplayed flash. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On June 21 2013 02:52 Thieving Magpie wrote: You should probably check the date on those statistics you just posted.As for the winrates deal, I thought it was actually pretty even outside of Korea? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334576 Look at WCS Korea right now, out of the first 4 groups (16 players) only one Protoss has made it through and he made it through doing all-in timings, not macro play. Protoss is having trouble at the highest level doing anything other than timings. Stardust won a tournament off doing essentially the immortal/sentry over and over again. Would he have beat Jaedong playing macro games? Probably not. Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't. I fail to see how saying that Protoss gateway units don't actually suck is ridiculous. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 21 2013 03:03 Ben... wrote: You should probably check the date on those statistics you just posted. Look at WCS Korea right now, out of the first 4 groups (16 players) only one Protoss has made it through and he made it through doing all-in timings, not macro play. Protoss is having trouble at the highest level doing anything other than timings. Stardust won a tournament off doing essentially the immortal/sentry over and over again. Would he have beat Jaedong playing macro games? Probably not. Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't. Which is why I said "outside of Korea" Stardust won because Korean PvZ is very much in favor of protoss according the statistic... And what he said was not ridiculous. Without medivacs, marines cannot stand toe to toe with gateway units. Without stim, bio does not deal as much damage as zealot/forcefield (in the early game) and charglots (in the late game) He had two case studies of recent games, older games also showed it possible such as Adelscott and Nony early in SC2 when they focused on fast double forge play and pheonix play. He's showing what is possible. He's not saying you can make 20 zealots, and then a-move to victory. There's a reason his two samples were SoS and Parting, two of the best protoss in the world right now and had it been any other protoss in their position they would have died before anyone would have a memory of them. But there was a time when only MKP could split. For everything we now take for granted in SC2 there was a time when it was "too hard" "impossible" "can't be done" and every-time those preconceptions were shattered by someone stupid enough to work on it. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On June 21 2013 03:11 Thieving Magpie wrote: I'm still completely lost about what you are talking about with regards to those statistics. They are over a year old and from a different game.Which is why I said "outside of Korea" Stardust won because Korean PvZ is very much in favor of protoss according the statistic... And what he said was not ridiculous. Without medivacs, marines cannot stand toe to toe with gateway units. Without stim, bio does not deal as much damage as zealot/forcefield (in the early game) and charglots (in the late game) He had two case studies of recent games, older games also showed it possible such as Adelscott and Nony early in SC2 when they focused on fast double forge play and pheonix play. He's showing what is possible. He's not saying you can make 20 zealots, and then a-move to victory. There's a reason his two samples were SoS and Parting, two of the best protoss in the world right now and had it been any other protoss in their position they would have died before anyone would have a memory of them. But there was a time when only MKP could split. For everything we now take for granted in SC2 there was a time when it was "too hard" "impossible" "can't be done" and every-time those preconceptions were shattered by someone stupid enough to work on it. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
Or you could continue with knee-jerk reactions fueled by emotion rather than experience or facts. As Z, looking forward to see how the match up changes. | ||
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MostGroce
United States104 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 21 2013 03:15 Ben... wrote: I'm still completely lost about what you are talking about with regards to those statistics. They are over a year old and from a different game. Woops, my bad http://aligulac.com/reports/ | ||
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