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On June 21 2013 01:42 EFermi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 14:12 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:53 EFermi wrote:On June 20 2013 13:28 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 20 2013 13:12 EFermi wrote:No hellbat nerf? Why?? On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote:
And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up. Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago. This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit. Taeja is a superior player to herO, and should therefore win a majority of those matches. And the same could be said for protoss having a superior counter for every single terran unit, it just all depends on how those units are used during the engagement, and protoss micro is insanely easy in a maxed out fight compared to what terran has to do. Husky is a low masters player, and he keeps his entire army on one hotkey, whereas terran needs a minimum of 3 (bio, ghosts, and vikings). Wrong on both accounts. herO is absolutely not inferior to TaeJA in any way, (other than maybe the race he's chosen). Terran units are not countered anywhere near as hard compared to protoss, with the exception of the marine, the dealing of which is the backbone of any XvT build. Protoss hotkeys can be spread out as well if you want perfect control. Doesn't really matter since anyone with 5 fingers can press 1a2a3a. Lol, yeah nice try troll. Just try a moving ghosts at all and see what happens (they die very quickly), or try just a moving vikings into a large group of stalkers (same thing), oh and guess what, same thing with bio. Terran has to split their bio, only commit their vikings if the collosi are actually gonna stay and fire (which is of course at the point and time of toss' choosing), keep their ghosts alive long enough the emp/snipe ht and archons without dying to the instacast feedback, while simultaneously kiting bio vs chargelots, storms, and collosi shots. And what does protoss have to do during this? A move their entire army, which allows the chargelots to force back the bio, giving stalkers more than enough time to pick of the vikings if the commit then, or collosi to gets shots of on ghosts/bio if they dont. Im not saying Terran cant win straight up fights, its just so much more mechanically taxing for them to do so. And as far as herO being "absolutely not inferior to Taeja in any way", thats like, uh, your opinion man. Hey, guess what? Templar require a lot more careful control than ghosts considering that they're slower, have less health, are more expensive, don't have cloak or unstoppable scans. Vikings are also not as frail as you make it out to be and they kill colossus much quicker than Stalkers kill them.
Ghost cost more than HTs, but the rest of the stuff you said is pretty much correct. They move at the speed of Thors and are the slowest of all protoss ground units.
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On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
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On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
You can still zone. I think the idea behind the buff was to make their survivability quotient go up.
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On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
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On June 21 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support. 100/100 Stim 100/100 Shields 50/50 Concussive Shells 100/100 * X Medivacs When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac" You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get. Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
Nice straw man.
Charge 200/200,
Blink 150/150,
Storm, 200/200
Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
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On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
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On June 21 2013 01:53 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support. 100/100 Stim 100/100 Shields 50/50 Concussive Shells 100/100 * X Medivacs When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac" You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get. Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build. Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
Strawman?
Charge+Blink+Storm beats Marine+Marauder+Medivac...
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On June 21 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable. I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
Without heals, bio can't beat pure gateway units.
AoE counters the heals.
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On June 21 2013 01:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:53 lorestarcraft wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support. 100/100 Stim 100/100 Shields 50/50 Concussive Shells 100/100 * X Medivacs When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac" You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get. Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build. Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss. Strawman? Charge+Blink+Storm beats Marine+Marauder+Medivac...
I think that combo of units comes down to who is better at the game and controlling their units.
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On June 21 2013 01:49 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable. Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi.
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On June 21 2013 01:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable. I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever. Without heals, bio can't beat pure gateway units. AoE counters the heals.
I have never tested it, I remember that above 140-160 supply, even upgraded gateway units couldn't punch through upgraded bio without an AOE. I could be incorrect and medivacs are required for that to happen.
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On June 21 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:
But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
Of course. But High Templars and, to a lesser extent, Archons do provide AoE, and both are gate units.
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On June 21 2013 01:32 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd. @Thieving Magpie: How the fuck is medivac tier 3? What does that make a battlecruiser? Tier 5? It's not about what beats what in which situation, it's the fact that stim + bio + very simple micro counters a unit that is fragile because it may or may not have blink and doesn't outdps a medivac and the other mineral dumb that gets hardcounter by what it's supposed to counter until it has a tier 2 upgrade and after that by hellbats (which are tier 2 in your world?). If you give a race 2 tier 1 spellcaster you can only give it shitty units, but maybe most terrans don't get this as they never played brood war (brood war dragoons are 20 times better than stalker will ever be).
first of all: your overly aggressive tone won't help you.
And as a matter of fact you can't consider a medivac "tier 1". It doesn't come out of a Barracks(t1) and requires investment into a factory(t2) before it comes out of a starport(t3). By all reasonable measures a medivac is a tier 3 unit.
If you want to, you could consider a BC a tier 3.5 unit but it doesn't make sense to judge a unit because of what you "feel" it is doing. A roach/hydra army with viper support is still a tier3 army. And a marine/marauder army with medivacs is also a tier 3 army. Pure Marine/marauder would be the tier 1(.5) army you were looking for. And stim without healing isn't as strong in the long run just as zealot/stalker/sentry.
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On June 21 2013 01:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 21 2013 01:53 lorestarcraft wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support. 100/100 Stim 100/100 Shields 50/50 Concussive Shells 100/100 * X Medivacs When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac" You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get. Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build. Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss. Strawman? Charge+Blink+Storm beats Marine+Marauder+Medivac... I think that combo of units comes down to who is better at the game and controlling their units.
In top level play, I'll have to agree with you. But I find most terran pros have a hard time against that combination without ghosts.
But yes, I've seen it done (which means its possible).
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On June 21 2013 02:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 21 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable. I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever. Without heals, bio can't beat pure gateway units. AoE counters the heals. I have never tested it, I remember that above 140-160 supply, even upgraded gateway units couldn't punch through upgraded bio without an AOE. I could be incorrect and medivacs are required for that to happen.
Depends on terrain really. Forcefields are ridiculously strong even in engagements that large. But once you have 8-10 medivacs "cutting off" parts of the army is not very effective sine they can only really heal parts at a time.
Flat terrain with a surround, Terran still wins. Properly positioned locations? Protoss wins. 90% determined by player's skill.
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On June 21 2013 01:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:49 Wingblade wrote:On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable. Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests. PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi.
Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
And if your other game is THAT particular game on Daybreak, where saying Flash went full foreigner would probably be considered an insult to most foreigners, I don't think there is any point in even trying...
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On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 01:59 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:49 Wingblade wrote:On June 21 2013 01:44 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:38 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine? I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes. I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you? So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs. Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit. One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable. Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests. PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi. Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly. And if your other game is THAT particular game on Daybreak, where saying Flash went full foreigner would probably be considered an insult to most foreigners, I don't think there is any point in even trying...
I'm sorry, Flash had 6 bases to Parting's 4--almost any other player would have outright died and no foreigner would even be considered in the running. Parting got out by talent and skill alone and he did it with nothing but gateways and his middle finger flipping a bird to god himself.
Parting showed that you can be down 2 bases versus bio and still break even as be slowly clawed his way back up into the game.
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The overall direction is to have both players going on the offensive, which (usually) is more interesting to watch. Not sure whether all crisis management, all the time is more or less fun to play, but as a player that watches matches more than he plays, that doesn't affect me as much.
I will say that TvP matches were getting awfully predictable to watch - Terran gets medivacs and does drops (of admittedly varied compositions inside the medivacs, but the end result isn't that different), Protoss defends for ~20-30 minutes until they get a death ball, then one big army fight happens and one side or the other wins the game. Putting aside whether this is better for balance, this should at least keep things more interesting, as both sides have to allocate resources between offense and defense, rather than T going 100% offense and P going 100% defense.
This is going to hurt Swarm Hosts vs Protoss, I think. Not that Zerg really had to go that route, and time will tell if it's still a good option regardless. Some maps where a single Swarm Host position could control all paths across the middle should be less of a no-brainer in terms of unit selection.
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Anyone know what day the patch is hitting? Thursday? Tuesday??
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EPT
