On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
actually, I don't believe gateway units are weak. They just have the problem that they need 3 different upgrades compared to a terran player. Usually players just ignore shield upgrades until late game, thus even when on theoretical equal upgrades with armor + damage in truth they are behind half an upgrade for every level of attack upgrade the enemy has (because they lack shield upgrade). Against Zerg this is not as crucial, as depending on the unit composition the Zerg often times has to spread his upgrades across 3 paths (or ignore one and have half his army much less effective), so the lack of shield upgrades is somewhat compensated for (even more so when considering the range of Protoss units, where often times a shield is not neeeded, and the high-frequency low-damage attacks from Zerglings that make armor upgrades so much better). Not only that, but the upgrades for gateway units are really strong as well. Charge is so much better than just Zealot leg speed in most situations, and when it is not you can deactivate the auto-cast until it is. Blink is about just as deadly. It allows for Stalkers to have incredible mobility, durability and speed if used correctly. Third, in SC2 a gateway army also includes sentries. Deadly army splits with forcefields, single unit base defenders against hordes of enemies, hallucination (scout/tank) and the underused guardian shield makes them fearsome support for the gateway army, and when used correctly multiply its value. I would take an upgraded Zealot/Stalker army over a Zealot/Dragoon army every single time, add in well used Sentries and I would even argue Gateway armies are too strong.
I'm pretty sure raw dps wise gateway units are weak compared to Terran bio and Zerg roach hydra even unupgraded. Abilities are decent. What I'm talking about is changing the way Protoss behaves in general by dismantling the deathball in exchange for more gateway focuses compositions such as in broodwar
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I'm really excited for this buff, going to make playing a more gateway heavy harass in the midgame a bit easier.
PvZ all-in's look like they could be a bit easier, gotta learn one now.
I don't think this is too bad for TvP,. Defensive widow mines + one turret may see some use potentially, like terrans do vs stargate openings already... think that'd be neat.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
On June 21 2013 01:22 BaronVonOwn wrote: Blizzard said they're doing this because protoss needs better harassment options and high level skill. Isn't that exactly what reaver drops were?
Except the Protoss of old did not have the se deathball capabilities and thus it made sense for harassment options. Yes I agree toss needs better options for harass #BUTWHATCOST
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
@Thieving Magpie: How the fuck is medivac tier 3? What does that make a battlecruiser? Tier 5? It's not about what beats what in which situation, it's the fact that stim + bio + very simple micro counters a unit that is fragile because it may or may not have blink and doesn't outdps a medivac and the other mineral dumb that gets hardcounter by what it's supposed to counter until it has a tier 2 upgrade and after that by hellbats (which are tier 2 in your world?). If you give a race 2 tier 1 spellcaster you can only give it shitty units, but maybe most terrans don't get this as they never played brood war (brood war dragoons are 20 times better than stalker will ever be).
nice insane Dt drop will be even faster.......or prism all in on ramp.....More dumb change reallly neeeded when pvt is p favored cause Nexus canon can def literally every all in from 1/2 base vs protoss.........So he gets all tech anyway and won late game most of cases....Dt drop to nexus no way to punish it......
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
You know that he posted evidence that a Robo at 19:45 was enough for Parting to beat Flash. It was on this page even.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
You know that he posted evidence that a Robo at 19:45 was enough for Parting to beat Flash. It was on this page even.
How can you ever be so dumb to use a single game, take it completly out of context, pick one building timign and use that as evidence? Marineking also beat genius with mech on dualsight in some gsl season, does that mean you can totally mech vs toss in wol?
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
I'm GM for the 8th consecutive season, what about you? Quite low judging by the bolded part if you imply that Terrans should stop Marines once Protoss has Storm. Example above with the Gold leaguer "PartinG" against "Flash," probably top Bronze on SEA or something.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
On June 21 2013 00:21 Xyik wrote: I love how terrans complain about Protoss being the 1a race when Terran is the real 1a race ... Stim micro and EMPs are the only 2 spells terran really needs to use in an engagement, vs. protoss who as others have posted, need to throw up guardian shield, force fields, storms, blinks, time warp with mothership core, and keep collosus in a favorable position, while keeping zealots and archons in the front of the army. Sure, its the strongest race in a straight up engagement, but I wish people would stop saying that it is 1a, and whining about protoss getting a buff when they are clearly the worst performing race.
what? you mean bio split, stutterstep, multi prone drops, concave, emp while need to make sure vikings aren't moving too fast forward etc is the 1a race? ultimate a move ball = toss chargelot archon tech switch ball
honestly I think zerg needs a better harassment tool, especially in ZvT right now where even muta is just used as a way to deny drops rather than harassment.
Splitting and concave are mostly done before the engagement, if you are dancing constantly to dodge storms you're probably already in trouble. You probably don't have enough ghosts then. Stutter stepping is a-moving backwards... Not that difficult to do really plus not entirely necessary if you mix in hellbats with your army. EMP is comparable to storm in how it is casted. And Vikings could follow a medivac when moving with the army and aren't that hard to pull back since they are air units.
On June 20 2013 13:12 EFermi wrote: No hellbat nerf? Why??
On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote: And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago.
This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit.
Taeja is a superior player to herO, and should therefore win a majority of those matches. And the same could be said for protoss having a superior counter for every single terran unit, it just all depends on how those units are used during the engagement, and protoss micro is insanely easy in a maxed out fight compared to what terran has to do. Husky is a low masters player, and he keeps his entire army on one hotkey, whereas terran needs a minimum of 3 (bio, ghosts, and vikings).
Wrong on both accounts. herO is absolutely not inferior to TaeJA in any way, (other than maybe the race he's chosen). Terran units are not countered anywhere near as hard compared to protoss, with the exception of the marine, the dealing of which is the backbone of any XvT build.
Protoss hotkeys can be spread out as well if you want perfect control. Doesn't really matter since anyone with 5 fingers can press 1a2a3a.
Lol, yeah nice try troll. Just try a moving ghosts at all and see what happens (they die very quickly), or try just a moving vikings into a large group of stalkers (same thing), oh and guess what, same thing with bio. Terran has to split their bio, only commit their vikings if the collosi are actually gonna stay and fire (which is of course at the point and time of toss' choosing), keep their ghosts alive long enough the emp/snipe ht and archons without dying to the instacast feedback, while simultaneously kiting bio vs chargelots, storms, and collosi shots.
And what does protoss have to do during this? A move their entire army, which allows the chargelots to force back the bio, giving stalkers more than enough time to pick of the vikings if the commit then, or collosi to gets shots of on ghosts/bio if they dont. Im not saying Terran cant win straight up fights, its just so much more mechanically taxing for them to do so.
And as far as herO being "absolutely not inferior to Taeja in any way", thats like, uh, your opinion man.
Hey, guess what? Templar require a lot more careful control than ghosts considering that they're slower, have less health, are more expensive, don't have cloak or unstoppable scans. Vikings are also not as frail as you make it out to be and they kill colossus much quicker than Stalkers kill them.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Careful, theDwf can referece GSL and other pro games at will. It's a truly frightening talent :p
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
The matchup hinges on the fact that Terran can reach his tech a little bit faster than protoss can and hence we get the defensive dance of the protoss turtle.
The point DWF was making is that the numbers on Gateway units are not weak; which is true.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Lol you mean the game where Flash was casually walking into storms with his bio army and then was sacrificing ghosts constantly in the lategame? If that game is your best argument for P lategame power your head isn't right.
EPT
