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On June 20 2013 23:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:56 Karpfen wrote:On June 20 2013 22:08 packrat386 wrote:On June 20 2013 22:05 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units. I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense. Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency? What he should have said is "Same cost efficiency given the same amount of investment". Clearly high tier units tend to be more cost efficient (else why would I even make them?). at 100 minerals there is nothing that, in general situations, come close to the hellbat. It stomps lings, trades effectively with banelings, barely loses to roaches (75/25, so one could say that a roach is worth more). we can see that it is already a good ground unit but the problem comes when you put these pesky guys into a medivac. They are guaranteed to do damage even if the opponent responds almost instantly ( don't try to tell me "pull away the workers" because you can just boost and catch some. Not even two spores stop you from boosting, leaving hellbats, and going away.) That's actually quite wrong. Low tier units are far more costefficient in small to medium skirmishes and certain low tier units (Marine/Marauder, Roaches, zerglings, blink stalkers, zealots) simply crush a lot of mid/higher tier units even in bigger battles (like Carriers, Tempest, Thor, Banshee, Raven, Ghost, Hydralisk, Dark Templar, Battlecruiser, Broodlord, Immortal, Infestor, Mutalisk). Most of those hightier units are only efficient if they are used as counter to some unit (like Colossus vs Marine/Marauder, Immortal vs Roaches/stalkers) have a ton of cheap support in fron of them (like the hydralisk or the Thor or the Colossus), are a support unit (Ghost, Infestor) or straight up don't fullfill a combat role until you start swapping out units that are cheap per supply for those that are expensive per supply (BC, Carrier, Broodlord). Basically only the 200/200 supply cap and countermechanisms really prevent the game from being only lowtier spam.
What you said does not disprove what I said. It specifies something I thought was obvious. the mid-high tier units will be cost effective given the usual ways of using them(the ones you listed).
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On June 21 2013 00:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:54 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2013 23:53 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:51 Targe wrote:On June 20 2013 23:37 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:27 fighter2_40 wrote:On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote:
Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines? The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore. And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility? You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision. Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss. That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point? Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement. They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry.
Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made.
Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced.
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I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
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On June 21 2013 00:10 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:02 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2013 23:54 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2013 23:53 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:51 Targe wrote:On June 20 2013 23:37 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:27 fighter2_40 wrote:On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote:
Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines? The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore. And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility? You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision. Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss. That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point? Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement. They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry. Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made. Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced.
You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone.
The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too.
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On June 21 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:10 Bagi wrote:On June 21 2013 00:02 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2013 23:54 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2013 23:53 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:51 Targe wrote:On June 20 2013 23:37 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:27 fighter2_40 wrote:On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote:
Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines? The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore. And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility? You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision. Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss. That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point? Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement. They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry. Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made. Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced. You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone. The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too.
Yeah I think I'm gonna stop trying to reason with you.
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On June 21 2013 00:16 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 00:10 Bagi wrote:On June 21 2013 00:02 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2013 23:54 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2013 23:53 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:51 Targe wrote:On June 20 2013 23:37 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:27 fighter2_40 wrote:On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote:
Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines? The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore. And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility? You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision. Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss. That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point? Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement. They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry. Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made. Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced. You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone. The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too. Yeah I think I'm gonna stop trying to reason with you.
Well, you were really just whining, rather than reasoning. Just saying that the protoss army is better flat out and terran needs to be balanced and made better isn't really an argument.
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On June 21 2013 00:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:16 Bagi wrote:On June 21 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2013 00:10 Bagi wrote:On June 21 2013 00:02 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2013 23:54 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2013 23:53 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:51 Targe wrote:On June 20 2013 23:37 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 23:27 fighter2_40 wrote:
[quote]
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore. And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility? You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision. Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss. That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point? Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement. They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry. Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made. Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced. You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone. The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too. Yeah I think I'm gonna stop trying to reason with you. Well, you were really just whining, rather than reasoning. Just saying that the protoss army is better flat out and terran needs to be balanced and made better isn't really an argument.
How fucking badly can you misread my posts?
Where was I asking for terran buffs? I said the protoss army is strong AS IT NEEDS TO BE because terran has the tools to get ahead economically. Dear god.
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So even though that everyone complains aboout helbat drops they remove the nerf and leave the prism buff which no one asked for? This game has 99 problems but prism speed aint one, why cant you open your eyes blizzard ffs.
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I love how terrans complain about Protoss being the 1a race when Terran is the real 1a race ... Stim micro and EMPs are the only 2 spells terran really needs to use in an engagement, vs. protoss who as others have posted, need to throw up guardian shield, force fields, storms, blinks, time warp with mothership core, and keep collosus in a favorable position, while keeping zealots and archons in the front of the army. Sure, its the strongest race in a straight up engagement, but I wish people would stop saying that it is 1a, and whining about protoss getting a buff when they are clearly the worst performing race.
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On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
ZvT seems pretty balanced atm and everybody likes watching it.
phoenix good unit
they're experimenting with nerfing hellbat damamge
Ridiculously cost efficient T3 units to back up the gateway units means that its generally not too much of a problem, also stardust wants a word with you.
I haven't heard about VRs crushing stalkers, but it seems natural that they should, they're higher tier tech and cost way more.
I feel like most of the concerns you've brought up aren't terribly large problems. Blizzard wanted toss to have harassment options.
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why does the race with the best deathball armies need better harass tools?
toss aren't harassing, not because they don't have good ways to harass, but because camping and turtling to 200/200 3/3 is much stronger.
blizzard should fix the deathball a-click nonsense before buffing toss harass capabilities, which are already strong enough as is (warp-in, stargate, dt, blink, old prism).
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On June 21 2013 00:21 Xyik wrote:
I love how terrans complain about Protoss being the 1a race when Terran is the real 1a race ... Stim micro and EMPs are the only 2 spells terran really needs to use in an engagement, vs. protoss who as others have posted, need to throw up guardian shield, force fields, storms, blinks, time warp with mothership core, and keep collosus in a favorable position, while keeping zealots and archons in the front of the army. Sure, its the strongest race in a straight up engagement, but I wish people would stop saying that it is 1a, and whining about protoss getting a buff when they are clearly the worst performing race.
what? you mean bio split, stutterstep, multi prone drops, concave, emp while need to make sure vikings aren't moving too fast forward etc is the 1a race?
ultimate a move ball = toss chargelot archon tech switch ball
honestly I think zerg needs a better harassment tool, especially in ZvT right now where even muta is just used as a way to deny drops rather than harassment.
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On June 20 2013 23:37 syno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:27 fighter2_40 wrote:On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote:
Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines? The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore. And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility? You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Haha I did not mean to start this shit-storm so go speak. I was merely adding flavor to my comment. What I mean is there Isolde forgiving battle management playing as Protoss
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On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying:
- zvt is terran favoured?
- zvp mutas are too strong?
- hellbats are too strong?
- gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why:
- I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance.
- I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%.
- I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong?
- Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
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On June 21 2013 00:32 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak? Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch.
- as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
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On June 21 2013 00:53 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:32 Snowbear wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak? Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better? I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
If you don't enjoy watching TvZ atm you're probably in the vast minority. Also balance is more important than "how fun it is to watch" since the second one is really subjective.
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On June 21 2013 00:56 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:53 fighter2_40 wrote:On June 21 2013 00:32 Snowbear wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak? Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better? I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers If you don't enjoy watching TvZ atm you're probably in the vast minority. Also balance is more important than "how fun it is to watch" since the second one is really subjective.
Sorry I didn't see the TvZ line, that should be excluded from my assessment.
Further, although balance is important for the immediate success of the game, I would argue enjoyment is more important for longevity. I'm sure we as viewers and players can come to some consensus about what we like to see more of or less of wen watching pro games ie. end of wol TvZ
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On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly. Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking... speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
I don't know why but this made me lol so hard i cried
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On June 21 2013 01:03 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly. Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking... speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs I don't know why but this made me lol so hard i cried
it should actually be possible for 3 medivacs to tow a barracks at medivac speed, pretty cool feature for the something of the void expansion
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On June 21 2013 00:53 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 00:32 Snowbear wrote:On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems. So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak? Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better? I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
actually, I don't believe gateway units are weak. They just have the problem that they need 3 different upgrades compared to a terran player. Usually players just ignore shield upgrades until late game, thus even when on theoretical equal upgrades with armor + damage in truth they are behind half an upgrade for every level of attack upgrade the enemy has (because they lack shield upgrade). Against Zerg this is not as crucial, as depending on the unit composition the Zerg often times has to spread his upgrades across 3 paths (or ignore one and have half his army much less effective), so the lack of shield upgrades is somewhat compensated for (even more so when considering the range of Protoss units, where often times a shield is not neeeded, and the high-frequency low-damage attacks from Zerglings that make armor upgrades so much better).
Not only that, but the upgrades for gateway units are really strong as well. Charge is so much better than just Zealot leg speed in most situations, and when it is not you can deactivate the auto-cast until it is. Blink is about just as deadly. It allows for Stalkers to have incredible mobility, durability and speed if used correctly.
Third, in SC2 a gateway army also includes sentries. Deadly army splits with forcefields, single unit base defenders against hordes of enemies, hallucination (scout/tank) and the underused guardian shield makes them fearsome support for the gateway army, and when used correctly multiply its value.
I would take an upgraded Zealot/Stalker army over a Zealot/Dragoon army every single time, add in well used Sentries and I would even argue Gateway armies are too strong.
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EPT
