Thank you so much for helping us test the Warp Prism changes. We're going to put the current Warp Prism changes in the balance test map into the game this week because we feel it is a good minor buff to Protoss harassing capabilities.
Changes are: o Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. o Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 2.625.
We will be closely monitoring both ladder and tournament games to make sure everything goes as expected once the changes go live.
As for the other changes in the balance test map, we're still looking into them and more playtesting/feedback from you guys will be greatly appreciated. We believe this collaborative community effort is really helpful for the game. Thank you.
Thank you so much for helping us test the Warp Prism changes. We're going to put the current Warp Prism changes in the balance test map into the game this week because we feel it is a good minor buff to Protoss harassing capabilities.
Changes are: o Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. o Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 2.625.
We will be closely monitoring both ladder and tournament games to make sure everything goes as expected once the changes go live.
As for the other changes in the balance test map, we're still looking into them and more playtesting/feedback from you guys will be greatly appreciated. We believe this collaborative community effort is really helpful for the game. Thank you.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Ya
afaik terran units dont have autoregenerating shields.
Dont realy mind this update, its something wich will only effect higher level players as players in diamond or lower seldom use warp prism harras in my experience, and with the prism now beeing faster the harras will only be more difficult for them to execute because they have to react faster. 1 viking at home at the place the prism is most likely to get in should still deter i guess? And maybe they could lower the health again back to what it used to be, as with the faster speed it will take less damage.
I don't even understand what this argument is. Whether warp prisms or speed medivacs are "better" at doom drops? Even if speed medivacs are better, isn't Terran supposed to be a great deal more mobile anyway? Why is the assumption that all three races should be equivalent in every regard?
As far as actual constructive discussion: what is the proper Terran response to warp prism harass play now? Vikings don't work to chase it down, they can only sit around and shoot the warp prism if it flies in, which you could do anyway by leaving your army at home. If you stay at home with all your vikings, they're wasted supply, and if you stay at home with your whole army, you've done exactly what Protoss wanted in the first place anyway.
So... turrets? I'm thinking place buildings with a lot of small crevasses, and leave hellbats in them to fight zealots. SCVs can repair if need be, and that should buy time for the next round of production to come out. Maybe a few marines, too, since hellbats don't do so well against DTs. Leaving ~10 supply at home should be safe (I think).
Wait and see how this turns out. If prism harass is considered too strong for a while after this patch, they might revert it. Until then, sit tight and see what happens - would more varied games kill anyone?
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
On June 20 2013 07:19 ChristianS wrote: I don't even understand what this argument is. Whether warp prisms or speed medivacs are "better" at doom drops? Even if speed medivacs are better, isn't Terran supposed to be a great deal more mobile anyway? Why is the assumption that all three races should be equivalent in every regard?
As far as actual constructive discussion: what is the proper Terran response to warp prism harass play now? Vikings don't work to chase it down, they can only sit around and shoot the warp prism if it flies in, which you could do anyway by leaving your army at home. If you stay at home with all your vikings, they're wasted supply, and if you stay at home with your whole army, you've done exactly what Protoss wanted in the first place anyway.
So... turrets? I'm thinking place buildings with a lot of small crevasses, and leave hellbats in them to fight zealots. SCVs can repair if need be, and that should buy time for the next round of production to come out. Maybe a few marines, too, since hellbats don't do so well against DTs. Leaving ~10 supply at home should be safe (I think).
Just use standard TvT defense strat: 1 Viking, 1 Turret, 1 Bunker at each base.
No, but seriously all you truly need is a Viking and a Turret to kill the fragile prism. You don't have to chase it at all.
ill stay out of it for the most part. I think it's a little silly for terrans to say "30 zlots in my base" when that would be 60 supply stuck across the map not part of your main army.
Interesting, this won't be too bad. PvT I still doubt warp prisms will be of any use, the warp prism is not so much the thing, more what you can drop really. Still should boost some drop plays a little, especially things like dt / ht drops. PvZ I worry a little about this, this is really good there for lots of all-ins. Soul train especially and sentry+warp prism tricks near ramp, Parting will know how to abuse this. PvP I like this change the most, warp prism was virtually useless there because of the MsC now we might see some ht drops and that sort of thing.
I remember the few PvP's on Dual sight where both players went speed prism double immortal drop. I think Ace was in one of them at least. Hope that makes a comeback. 'Twas glorious.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
how is that silly? medivacs can move faster than viking, overlord with speed moves faster than vikings, so why shouldnt warp prisms? plus terrans have auto turrets anyway thats all the anti dropship play u need as a terran anyway. not to mention how marines can shoot air too as a basic infantry unit.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
how is that silly? medivacs can move faster than viking, overlord with speed moves faster than vikings, so why shouldnt warp prisms? plus terrans have auto turrets anyway thats all the anti dropship play u need as a terran anyway. not to mention how marines can shoot air too as a basic infantry unit.
In which game do Overlords move faster than Vikings? I would like to play it. It sure as hell ain't SC2.
Viking Speed: 2.75
Overlords with Speed Upgrade: 1.88
Not all of us are blessed with superspeed dropships.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
how is that silly? medivacs can move faster than viking, overlord with speed moves faster than vikings, so why shouldnt warp prisms? plus terrans have auto turrets anyway thats all the anti dropship play u need as a terran anyway. not to mention how marines can shoot air too as a basic infantry unit.
In which game do Overlords move faster than Vikings? I would like to play it. It sure as hell ain't SC2.
Viking Speed: 2.75
Overlords with Speed Upgrade: 1.88
Not all of us are blessed with superspeed dropships.
im okay with it as terran. I dont think it has that much balance impact, its more an encouragement to use warp prism more often. But what about hellbat nerf bomber was talking about? i hate hellbat wars
I don't get these complaints about super lategame harass when speed prisms already outran vikings in super lategame?
you can't warp in 30 zealots instantly at terran's base because if you are at 140 to 200 supply, you will just plain lose the game. You can't warp in 10 zealots in midgame because you'll just plain lose the game to medivacs.
this patch will probably encourage terran players to build sensor towers like protoss has to build extra observers and zerg spreads overlords.
Wait and see how this turns out. If prism harass is considered too strong for a while after this patch, they might revert it. Until then, sit tight and see what happens - would more varied games kill anyone?
Have they ever put something in and then reverted it? Can't think of anything off the top of my head. Maybe there is some obvious ones.
Wait and see how this turns out. If prism harass is considered too strong for a while after this patch, they might revert it. Until then, sit tight and see what happens - would more varied games kill anyone?
Have they ever put something in and then reverted it? Can't think of anything off the top of my head. Maybe there is some obvious ones.
Bunch of fucking over dramatic whining going on in this thread, acting like this is the be-all, end-all of PvT. If a Protoss player uses Warp Prisms in the "super" late game, they'll probably have Gravitic Drive researched anyway. Make some fucking Missile Turrets around your base and get over yourselves.
More harassing capability to the race with the best late game army yay. I'm all for harass buff but you can't have both nexus cannon and colossus/vr/storm/tempest deatball and supersonic prisms in my opinion.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
Now you know what it feels like to deal with medivacs, gratz
No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
On June 20 2013 07:53 Nimix wrote: More harassing capability to the race with the best late game army yay. I'm all for harass buff but you can't have both nexus cannon and colossus/vr/storm/tempest deatball and supersonic prisms in my opinion.
On June 20 2013 07:46 Banchan wrote: I don't get these complaints about super lategame harass when speed prisms already outran vikings in super lategame?
you can't warp in 30 zealots instantly at terran's base because if you are at 140 to 200 supply, you will just plain lose the game. You can't warp in 10 zealots in midgame because you'll just plain lose the game to medivacs.
this patch will probably encourage terran players to build sensor towers like protoss has to build extra observers and zerg spreads overlords.
MY GOD ITS LOGIC!
Anyways:
Still wondering about hellbats. I usually invest 2 cannons and 2 stalkers on every base just to Shut down (nor mitigate) drops. Kinda annoying but I think a slight nerf to Hellbat's dps would be cool. Like a nerf to its AOE? Like 3/4 damage to outside central line of cone? Something taht makes hellbat's scary but not super punishing.
On June 20 2013 07:46 Banchan wrote: I don't get these complaints about super lategame harass when speed prisms already outran vikings in super lategame?
you can't warp in 30 zealots instantly at terran's base because if you are at 140 to 200 supply, you will just plain lose the game. You can't warp in 10 zealots in midgame because you'll just plain lose the game to medivacs.
this patch will probably encourage terran players to build sensor towers like protoss has to build extra observers and zerg spreads overlords.
If you're at 30 gates, you're probably not warping in 60 supply while the terran is maxed, including having all of that army supply already completed and not under construction.
This looks like a headache as far as warp prism DT builds, but not plain silly like the super speed prism they were considering. I'm still wondering why Prisms are allowed to unload a full shipment of 4 units while standing on a turret, but you can't really make turrets stronger. I just think the 40/100 to 100/100 HP buff could be toned down a bit.
Sensor towers cost a lot more than obs, but fortunately they don't use supply. They also don't move or detect invis though. The idea that toss can't warp in 10 zealots midgame because of drops is rather silly. For one, you can chrono gates. Second, cannons. Third, mothership core. Fourth, blink stalkers and high templar already in place. Fifth, you could be going for phoenix colossus.
I don't think it's to bad as a Terran it's not like the mass warping in idea really chances I think this only affects the most skilled player and seeing tvp pro matches Terran looks slightly more op...
On June 20 2013 07:50 wongfeihung wrote: Bunch of fucking over dramatic whining going on in this thread, acting like this is the be-all, end-all of PvT. If a Protoss player uses Warp Prisms in the "super" late game, they'll probably have Gravitic Drive researched anyway. Make some fucking Missile Turrets around your base and get over yourselves.
On June 20 2013 07:28 TRpredator wrote: Late game in TvP will be a complete hell now
late game TvP they should have warp prism speed already anyway lol I vote we let this play out and see how it is. No need to whine about somin most people havn't tried yet
On June 20 2013 06:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Time to give Overlords boosters.
Seems appropriate right? Warp Prisms can carry stuff and warp in stuff, and are very fast. Medivacs can carry stuff and heal stuff, and are super fast. Overlords are slow and have terrible acceleration...but don't take supply I guess...no wonder zerg can't put drops in their standard play.
As a top 5 platinum league, i could do with this buff.. for too long has swarm hosts lurked around at my door steps and i not being able to get out to expand.. A fast warp prism should do the trick!
Wait and see how this turns out. If prism harass is considered too strong for a while after this patch, they might revert it. Until then, sit tight and see what happens - would more varied games kill anyone?
Have they ever put something in and then reverted it? Can't think of anything off the top of my head. Maybe there is some obvious ones.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
Now you know what it feels like to deal with medivacs, gratz
No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
On June 20 2013 07:53 Nimix wrote: More harassing capability to the race with the best late game army yay. I'm all for harass buff but you can't have both nexus cannon and colossus/vr/storm/tempest deatball and supersonic prisms in my opinion.
This.
I am sure terrans will figure it out. After all, marines can still shoot at the sky and widow mines still exist.
Man, I want a mineral only unit that can shoot at the sky. I hate the sky.
I'm confused why all the Terrans here are whining. I'm a Terran myself, and actually don't fear this change at all. If you guys would play on a decent level, your Protoss opponents have Warp Prism speed in lategame anyway, so it makes no difference. And on Gold level the Speed of that Prism shouldn't matter anyways. Since players of that skill wouldn't recognize the prism on the minimap...
...maybe DT Drops are a bit harder to stop now. We will see, but that doesn't make this all imba...
I would be rather concerned as a Zerg player, since it might be quit difficult to snipe a Prism in an all-in now. But i don't really unterstand that Match Up.
On June 20 2013 07:58 AngrySalmon wrote: As a top 5 platinum league, i could do with this buff.. for too long has swarm hosts lurked around at my door steps and i not being able to get out to expand.. A fast warp prism should do the trick!
Was there a point in telling us that you're top 5 plat?
On June 20 2013 08:03 Akaann wrote: I'm confused why all the Terrans here are whining. I'm a Terran myself, and actually don't fear this change at all. If you guys would play on a decent level, your Protoss opponents have Warp Prism speed in lategame anyway, so it makes no difference. And on Gold level the Speed of that Prism shouldn't matter anyways. Since players of that skill wouldn't recognize the prism on the minimap anyway...
I would be rather concerned as a Zerg player, since it might be quit difficult to snipe a Prism in an all-in now. But i don't really unterstand that Match Up.
as zerg play I fear for the war prism 2 immortals colossi all in...
On June 20 2013 07:53 packrat386 wrote: Jesus christ guys, can't you wait to balance whine until the patch is live?
You must be new to Teamliquid.net
lol, sometimes I feel like raging against the machine a little bit. I just hope these assclowns stay away from LR threads (which will of course not happen)
the amount of stupidity in this thrread is staggering.
30 facilities?Where when?Did I miss some games?Where protoss has such an easy time vs terran that he can go 5 bases into clean warp gate army (that has the worst first two units a race can have ) from 30 warpgates?Man I missed that, might be why Stardust just won.
Shields regen?That's completely useless lol , zealot drops will always melts to a few marines with steam.+ if a protoss does a 10 zealot drop in a terran bases hes commiting a lot of resources and safety of his own main+expo.10 zealots can do some dmg, but a terran army of 1000minerals will do some serious dmg.
Stop being but hurt Terran , ure race doesnt need anymore help, its time the protoss gets some love so we dont die of boredom every game going for fast expand and afking till minute 10 and then after that being defensive for 20 minutes.
On June 20 2013 08:05 Diavolo222 wrote: the amount of stupidity in this thrread is staggering.
30 facilities?Where when?Did I miss some games?Where protoss has such an easy time vs terran that he can go 5 bases into clean warp gate army (that has the worst first two units a race can have ) from 30 warpgates?Man I missed that, might be why Stardust just won.
Shields regen?That's completely useless lol , zealot drops will always melts to a few marines with steam.+ if a protoss does a 10 zealot drop in a terran bases hes commiting a lot of resources and safety of his own main+expo.10 zealots can do some dmg, but a terran army of 1000minerals will do some serious dmg.
Stop being but hurt Terran , ure race doesnt need anymore help, its time the protoss gets some love so we dont die of boredom every game going for fast expand and afking till minute 10 and then after that being defensive for 20 minutes.
I want to see these games they are playing over their shoulders and then question them after they lose:
"So when you left him alone for 10 minutes on 5 bases and you knew he was maxed, did you expect him not to build 4,500 minerals worth of warpgates? You do know there are no upgrades above +3/+3 right?"
I love all the retards whining about late game when this change changes nothing to the late game cause everyone has the speed upgrade done then, terrans are so silly.
On June 20 2013 07:19 ChristianS wrote: I don't even understand what this argument is. Whether warp prisms or speed medivacs are "better" at doom drops? Even if speed medivacs are better, isn't Terran supposed to be a great deal more mobile anyway? Why is the assumption that all three races should be equivalent in every regard?
As far as actual constructive discussion: what is the proper Terran response to warp prism harass play now? Vikings don't work to chase it down, they can only sit around and shoot the warp prism if it flies in, which you could do anyway by leaving your army at home. If you stay at home with all your vikings, they're wasted supply, and if you stay at home with your whole army, you've done exactly what Protoss wanted in the first place anyway.
So... turrets? I'm thinking place buildings with a lot of small crevasses, and leave hellbats in them to fight zealots. SCVs can repair if need be, and that should buy time for the next round of production to come out. Maybe a few marines, too, since hellbats don't do so well against DTs. Leaving ~10 supply at home should be safe (I think).
Just use standard TvT defense strat: 1 Viking, 1 Turret, 1 Bunker at each base.
No, but seriously all you truly need is a Viking and a Turret to kill the fragile prism. You don't have to chase it at all.
Obvious question: one viking and one turret might have the DPS to take down a warp prism before it warps in, but what stops the warp prism from flying to a different part of your base where there isn't a turret? The viking on its own definitely cannot take the warp prism down fast enough to stop it from dropping/warping in
Really dumb change. Warp prisms are fine if protoss actually used it. Makes already way too strong protoss late game even stronger, and expands upon an already way too versatile amount of protoss openings
On June 20 2013 07:19 ChristianS wrote: I don't even understand what this argument is. Whether warp prisms or speed medivacs are "better" at doom drops? Even if speed medivacs are better, isn't Terran supposed to be a great deal more mobile anyway? Why is the assumption that all three races should be equivalent in every regard?
As far as actual constructive discussion: what is the proper Terran response to warp prism harass play now? Vikings don't work to chase it down, they can only sit around and shoot the warp prism if it flies in, which you could do anyway by leaving your army at home. If you stay at home with all your vikings, they're wasted supply, and if you stay at home with your whole army, you've done exactly what Protoss wanted in the first place anyway.
So... turrets? I'm thinking place buildings with a lot of small crevasses, and leave hellbats in them to fight zealots. SCVs can repair if need be, and that should buy time for the next round of production to come out. Maybe a few marines, too, since hellbats don't do so well against DTs. Leaving ~10 supply at home should be safe (I think).
Just use standard TvT defense strat: 1 Viking, 1 Turret, 1 Bunker at each base.
No, but seriously all you truly need is a Viking and a Turret to kill the fragile prism. You don't have to chase it at all.
Obvious question: one viking and one turret might have the DPS to take down a warp prism before it warps in, but what stops the warp prism from flying to a different part of your base where there isn't a turret? The viking on its own definitely cannot take the warp prism down fast enough to stop it from dropping/warping in
The warp prism also can't deploy and warp in a full set of units without risking being popped like a zit. Seriously, when did you ever see a warp prism stop and deploy while a viking was unloading on it?
Should be an interesting patch to spice things up a bit. Before hots I was wondering whether we might be getting a lot of scorched-earth games with both players on extremely low resources, and this might be the case with so many drop options for everyone hehe :D
If it's not a good one, rest assured the patch will be reverted. In the meantime, let's wait to play >.<
What's this bs of protoss being powerful late game lol?Why u think Stardust won Dreamhack?Cause he ussed the race in manner of which it is supposed to be used, doing freaking all-ins.
Just because protoss has a death-ball doesnt mean its good late game.1 EMP and protoss losses that battle.Have you seen Terra vs Protoss lately?Protoss has no answer.Zealot drops are useless since they dont have the time or the dps to do the dmg that some marines and 1-2 marauders can do.
I think most people here who are playing havent been in High diamond to at least mid masters.I mean that's the only reason I can see why you would be so missinformed about the protoss late game.
Terran has a 100000x more efficient army than a protoss.Protoss just does 6 collossi in HOPES that they will do enough dmg before their inevitable deaths.And they cost a fuck ton to cost and take a lot of time to make again.
While terran can maxout on MMM + ghost in 1-2 minutes and still have a lot of resources left.Not to mention protoss besides having to remake 10000 zealots, stalkers for vikings, 6 collosi, a few sentries, neeeds to make some archons aswell and constantly have templars 4-5 in their army + at least one at every expansion.Yea u terrans have it so bad now,
Knowing blizzard reads sites like these and cares about feedback they willl prolly nerf protoss to the ground cause we dont want the race with the imba deathball to win anymore tournaments now would we?I mean just look at the stats, protoss is up their battling terran for most tourneys won in HotS.Something needs to be done, Human Power, kill the allien protosses gRRRrRRRRrrrr
i love the change, this will make eary double immortal drops a viable tactic in atleast pvp and pvz, in pvt it will still be hard to actually make use of the higher warprism speed because of mines. Also; the biggest threat of warprisms in pvt was always that they actually manage to deploy in your base and when they do they will still be stationary so i doubt that it should be too hard to pick em off with some stimmed marines.
i have been going for early stargate into robo in pvp anyway, now i suddenly cant only pick up probes but snipe pylons and production aswell.
I've figured out how to end the arguing between T and P and I'm sure Z soon too.
The WarpOverVac !!!! Cary your units, warp them in! Heal them! speed boost it's all yours!.....for 1523423 easy payments of 9.99 plus shipping and handling.
Being serious, while the buff will possibly open up some possibilities, it won't be impossible to deflect prisms for any race. It still takes time to set up and warp in units, if your on top of it when it tries you can still kill it relatively quickly. Tracking them down will obviously be harder so their survival rate and annoyance rate will be slightly more so.
Well have to test out how to abuse this in teamgames. Most likely some dts followed by zealots. It'll be like highroundwarp again. Unfortunately I cant play P.
On June 20 2013 07:06 Akusta wrote: Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
I feel like posters with completely absurd arguments should get warnings..
Since you are talking about the very late game (with that gateway number you presented..), there is no reason not to have sensor towers and turret rings - which is already done by high level terrans at end games. This change only helps to improve protoss mid game harassment by a slight amount, has absolutely no impact on the late game because warp prism speed gets researched anyways.
And for people complaining about it being faster than a viking, its no different than how protoss players deals with reapers, if the opponent's control is good, you can't ever kill the reaper in the early game, you just do your best to shoo it away - the same principle applies.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
Ignite afterburners Cooldown 20s -Speed boost that increases movement speed and acceleration to 4.25 for 8 seconds.
Phoenix -Base movement speed: 4.25
No.
Um. a phoenix takes like 2000 shots to kill a single medivac. They can literally unload all their marines and kill the phoenix before it kills the medivac.
Wtf. Terrans so mad. You know that a slightly faster warp prism will have the same problem vs viking as current warp prism. It has to go stationary to warp in anything, speed boost won't do shit to change that.
What I would like to see in future updates is more aggressive options for Z in ZvP (no chance to attack before 12 minutes? wtf :p) and also more lategame option in ZvT :D
EDIT: Also T complaining? I mean come on really? Z have the worst anti-air in the game by far and you don't see many of us complaining about it.
So many people are complaining about this. This lets warp prisms escape, and reach places faster, like speedvacs. The same thing, except never ending. This is a good thing in my opinion, an this will make the actual dropping happen more. It's not like it can warp in while moving.
Yay! Good change that I'm glad Blizzard went through with. Balance might mean the buff is rolled back a bit, but the change is good. As it was Robo tech was the turtle on your ass and not move out tech path, now you can be more aggressive with it easier.
LoL terrans are bitching about Warp Prism speed. The irony. I guess hellbat drops are fine, but faster warp prisms... God forbid. Now they just have to add some kind of harassing unit, so we can actually use the prisms.
On June 20 2013 08:29 pivor wrote: So protoss gets premanently boosted medivac that is cheaper than original and one can drop entire army wherever it wants? Blizz pls..
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
Ignite afterburners Cooldown 20s -Speed boost that increases movement speed and acceleration to 4.25 for 8 seconds.
Phoenix -Base movement speed: 4.25
No.
Um. a phoenix takes like 2000 shots to kill a single medivac. They can literally unload all their marines and kill the phoenix before it kills the medivac.
Why would you have only one phoenix anyway? But yes, they kill Medivacs rather slowly compared to vikings.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
Ignite afterburners Cooldown 20s -Speed boost that increases movement speed and acceleration to 4.25 for 8 seconds.
Phoenix -Base movement speed: 4.25
No.
Um. a phoenix takes like 2000 shots to kill a single medivac. They can literally unload all their marines and kill the phoenix before it kills the medivac.
Why would you have only one phoenix anyway? But yes, they kill Medivacs rather slowly compared to vikings.
People are saying it drops entire armies. It does have to stop and warp you know. It is basically equal to speedvacs. Less original speed than boosted, but no cooldown. Protoss
On June 20 2013 07:53 TheDwf wrote: No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
going to single out this idiotic statement, among many, displaying nonsensical terran whining. you have giant radars. make some.
What i mind is the patch where they made Warp prisms like 70 percent shields and 30 percent hull. Now that they are faster, they are more likely to get away before taking any real dmg.
At least with medivacs, the dmg done to the medivac is permanent. Well effectively permanent as no one has the Apm to repair them yet.
I wish they were more like 40 percent shields and 60 percent hull.
I think everyone should be afraid of having to watch every Zerg mass spores and spines for 40 minutes every game. Man, nydus is so shitty compare to these methods of transport.
On June 20 2013 07:53 TheDwf wrote: No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
going to single out this idiotic statement, among many, displaying nonsensical terran whining. you have giant radars. make some.
our giant radars cost more gas then any unit we make in tvp, gas is very limited to us, and it wont even help you shoot it down.
btw, you should probably respect your elders... Dwf as been around here quite a long time and he s a very stable high lvl terra. so shove your idiotic statements up your arse.
On June 20 2013 07:19 ChristianS wrote: I don't even understand what this argument is. Whether warp prisms or speed medivacs are "better" at doom drops? Even if speed medivacs are better, isn't Terran supposed to be a great deal more mobile anyway? Why is the assumption that all three races should be equivalent in every regard?
As far as actual constructive discussion: what is the proper Terran response to warp prism harass play now? Vikings don't work to chase it down, they can only sit around and shoot the warp prism if it flies in, which you could do anyway by leaving your army at home. If you stay at home with all your vikings, they're wasted supply, and if you stay at home with your whole army, you've done exactly what Protoss wanted in the first place anyway.
So... turrets? I'm thinking place buildings with a lot of small crevasses, and leave hellbats in them to fight zealots. SCVs can repair if need be, and that should buy time for the next round of production to come out. Maybe a few marines, too, since hellbats don't do so well against DTs. Leaving ~10 supply at home should be safe (I think).
Just use standard TvT defense strat: 1 Viking, 1 Turret, 1 Bunker at each base.
No, but seriously all you truly need is a Viking and a Turret to kill the fragile prism. You don't have to chase it at all.
Obvious question: one viking and one turret might have the DPS to take down a warp prism before it warps in, but what stops the warp prism from flying to a different part of your base where there isn't a turret? The viking on its own definitely cannot take the warp prism down fast enough to stop it from dropping/warping in
The warp prism also can't deploy and warp in a full set of units without risking being popped like a zit. Seriously, when did you ever see a warp prism stop and deploy while a viking was unloading on it?
Well... but it can, though. Viking DPS is 10, and warp prisms have 200 health. Warp-in takes 5 seconds, which means suiciding a warp prism, you have 15 seconds to position it and change into warp-in mode. So with a single Viking unloading on it, you can easily warp in a round of zealots (or even a couple stalkers to kill that viking). And that's assuming the Viking spots you on the way in. If the warp prism makes it to the base undetected, it can warp in, and then fly away before the Viking can even do hull damage.
On June 20 2013 07:53 TheDwf wrote: No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
going to single out this idiotic statement, among many, displaying nonsensical terran whining. you have giant radars. make some.
our giant radars cost more gas then any unit we make in tvp, gas is very limited to us, and it wont even help you shoot it down.
btw, you should probably respect your elders... Dwf as been around here quite a long time and he s a very stable high lvl terra. so shove your idiotic statements up your arse.
Dwf is also one of the largest terran whiners out there, so he earns what he gets.
On June 20 2013 07:53 TheDwf wrote: No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
going to single out this idiotic statement, among many, displaying nonsensical terran whining. you have giant radars. make some.
our giant radars cost more gas then any unit we make in tvp, [b]gas is very limited to us[/b], and it wont even help you shoot it down.
btw, you should probably respect your elders... Dwf as been around here quite a long time and he s a very stable high lvl terra. so shove your idiotic statements up your arse.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
When I get 30 production facilities, getting a 100/100 upgrade or not won't already matter.
This is more early-mid game buff where protoss can be forced to be very passive with no options to attack or harass. So warp prisms can help put some of the pressure back to the opponent.
On June 20 2013 07:53 TheDwf wrote: No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
going to single out this idiotic statement, among many, displaying nonsensical terran whining. you have giant radars. make some.
our giant radars cost more gas then any unit we make in tvp, gas is very limited to us, and it wont even help you shoot it down.
btw, you should probably respect your elders... Dwf as been around here quite a long time and he s a very stable high lvl terra. so shove your idiotic statements up your arse.
if you consider him high lvl, than you do not have a very good concept of this game. Vasher is imba!
On June 20 2013 07:53 TheDwf wrote: No, because I have neither Warp, nor the MSC, nor supply-free static defence, nor Observers to spot said Prism, nor can I afford to turtle passively until an unstoppable army if I'm afraid or simply unwilling to move out. Stop comparing both things like the general perspectives are the same for the two races. They're completely not the same.
going to single out this idiotic statement, among many, displaying nonsensical terran whining. you have giant radars. make some.
our giant radars cost more gas then any unit we make in tvp, gas is very limited to us, and it wont even help you shoot it down.
btw, you should probably respect your elders... Dwf as been around here quite a long time and he s a very stable high lvl terra. so shove your idiotic statements up your arse.
Just because he is high level terran doesn't mean it isn't whine. Respecting someones opinion for whether they have been around a long time isn't very smart. You should take his opinion with the validity of his claim. Terrans even in the highest levels frequently float 2000+ gas in even code S games in both TvZ and TvP, to say that Terran don't have spare gas makes no sense when all of their units are so mineral heavy (excluding sky terran) compared to gas costs. I even remember Terrans complaining that ghosts were too mineral heavy and not gas heavy enough only 6 months ago.
Next time when you need a doctor don't take his medicine, you should go to your garden and pick some herbal remedies because they have been around for thousands of years, whereas modern medicine is new. Therefore herbal remedies demand more respect.
On June 20 2013 08:41 peidongyang wrote: Inb4 second overlord speed upgrade at hive for ludicrous speed overlords :D
I Hope that Zerg drops are buffed, Though i hope is a more creative buff than simply speed.
Tbh what we need is faster unload times than the other races, that is the weakness of our drops. We get more units but all of them that we would risk in a drop are much weaker than any other race. Having 1 zergling drop out of an overlord at a time is simply not useful at all.
I have a feeling this will not effect the MUs well. Admittedly since Blizzard tends to be reluctant in reverting buffs, this might cause a nerf in the protoss power units, possibly making protoss gateway army stronger and the power units weaker in return. Dunno, it's just frustrating seeing blizzard try everything they can to balance protoss when the issue is and has always been warp gate tech(and weak gateway units as an effect of it).
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
Ignite afterburners Cooldown 20s -Speed boost that increases movement speed and acceleration to 4.25 for 8 seconds.
Phoenix -Base movement speed: 4.25
No.
Um. a phoenix takes like 2000 shots to kill a single medivac. They can literally unload all their marines and kill the phoenix before it kills the medivac.
Why would you have only one phoenix anyway? But yes, they kill Medivacs rather slowly compared to vikings.
Why would you only have one viking anyway?
Is this cute response supposed to mean anything? Building a single phoenix for drop defense won't allow you to harass or kill anything lifted by graviton beam. It's a waste of money and time, delaying tech. At best, you can hope to set the terran back some minerals in turrets, but your tech is still delayed. One other thing you could hope is that he's afraid to drop, even though you've only shown one phoenix.
I really like this change and I'm a meching Terran.
Maybe it'll force Bio players into playing a little more conservatively and due to the readiness of turrets as mech it really shouldn't be an issue for me what so ever.
On June 20 2013 08:41 peidongyang wrote: Inb4 second overlord speed upgrade at hive for ludicrous speed overlords :D
I Hope that Zerg drops are buffed, Though i hope is a more creative buff than simply speed.
Tbh what we need is faster unload times than the other races, that is the weakness of our drops. We get more units but all of them that we would risk in a drop are much weaker than any other race. Having 1 zergling drop out of an overlord at a time is simply not useful at all.
OL drops are OK, its Nydus worms that need a re-think. Haven't seen a Nydus in a tournament since 2011
On June 20 2013 08:41 peidongyang wrote: Inb4 second overlord speed upgrade at hive for ludicrous speed overlords :D
I Hope that Zerg drops are buffed, Though i hope is a more creative buff than simply speed.
Tbh what we need is faster unload times than the other races, that is the weakness of our drops. We get more units but all of them that we would risk in a drop are much weaker than any other race. Having 1 zergling drop out of an overlord at a time is simply not useful at all.
OL drops are OK, its Nydus worms that need a re-think. Haven't seen a Nydus in a tournament since 2011
On June 20 2013 08:41 peidongyang wrote: Inb4 second overlord speed upgrade at hive for ludicrous speed overlords :D
I Hope that Zerg drops are buffed, Though i hope is a more creative buff than simply speed.
Tbh what we need is faster unload times than the other races, that is the weakness of our drops. We get more units but all of them that we would risk in a drop are much weaker than any other race. Having 1 zergling drop out of an overlord at a time is simply not useful at all.
OL drops are OK, its Nydus worms that need a re-think. Haven't seen a Nydus in a tournament since 2011
You need to watch more tournaments then o.O
Symbol used it a hell of a lot in ZvZ, same with Life and Hyun, i've seen it done with roach/hydra vs T at high masters+ to provide the extra mobility needed to deal with drops.
On June 20 2013 08:41 peidongyang wrote: Inb4 second overlord speed upgrade at hive for ludicrous speed overlords :D
I Hope that Zerg drops are buffed, Though i hope is a more creative buff than simply speed.
Tbh what we need is faster unload times than the other races, that is the weakness of our drops. We get more units but all of them that we would risk in a drop are much weaker than any other race. Having 1 zergling drop out of an overlord at a time is simply not useful at all.
OL drops are OK, its Nydus worms that need a re-think. Haven't seen a Nydus in a tournament since 2011
I want to see an overlord hp/armor boost, so it doesn't matter how many turrets you make, all my stuff will still drop. Just so I can see more terran tears. Jesus christ what a lot of whining on the first page. Imagine if they had gone through with the hellbat rebalance.
Nice change, and I am a terran player btw. Protoss need some more viable harass that doesn't involve them going allin.
Guess i'll be getting some sensor towers in TvP.
It must not be much fun just sitting in your base defending and trying to hit a timing without taking much damage. Should make toss a little more exciting to watch at the pro level too, because at the minute IN GENERAL the protoss matchups are pretty dull to watch (imho)
Glad the warp prism change came through, should make pro-protoss games more enjoyable to watch and as a terran player, I don't mind so much. Obviously it's going to be 'harder' than before, but not something unreasonable so it will be a nice challenge :D.
Was looking forward to the shift between the Hellbat and the Banshee (as I already like getting blue flame , and loved banshee play in WoL) but guess I'll just have to wait. I assume they aren't 100% on the Banshee change and didn't want to nerf the Hellbat without buffing the Banshee to make up for it, which is a little bit different, but I can't complain .
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
Especially not 30 barracks with an option of either Marines/Marauder for deployment.
Hah. By the time I have 30 Gateways, I will have Speed Upgrade researched and it will be the same speed as a speed prism is now on the live patch. This is just a buff to the non-upgraded warp prism. It makes it just a little more maneuverable a little bit earlier its not like we get the super speed prisms immediately and will have 30 gates and no tech up at the 10 minute mark :/
...yay, I guess? As a Protoss player, I feel like this is really not the right direction to be buffing Protoss. There are so going to be so many more warp prism shenanigans in PvP now, and I feel like this won't really make PvT better. Terran drops in PvT are too strong in my opinion, but making Protoss drops also too strong won't make it any more fun to play or watch.
this is really just a bandaid fix, I'm still of the opinion that protoss needs a redesign instead of these small bandaids. Personally I would start with removing warpgate and buffing gateway units so that they're more than just a meat shield (and a bad one at that) for your colossus or templars. Obviously that change would need a lot of testing to find out just how big a buff and how big a nerf robo/stargate units will take. But this might just be me wishing for SC:BW HD edition.
On June 20 2013 08:19 Nerski wrote: I've figured out how to end the arguing between T and P and I'm sure Z soon too.
The WarpOverVac !!!! Cary your units, warp them in! Heal them! speed boost it's all yours!.....for 1523423 easy payments of 9.99 plus shipping and handling.
I lol'd, hard, at work. Nice one, mate. Thanks, that was a good giggle. :D
I don't think this will help protoss much at all, this will just create a few new all-ins for a race that relies heavily on gimmicks. Units such as the zealot, stalker, voidray, colossus, carrier, mothership/core, and immortal need to be entirely redesigned; or perhaps introduce some new units (reaver, hint hint).
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
however, medivacs have 8 marines. warp prism warps in 10-20 zealots, you are fucked unless your army is in position. also when medivac speed is on cooldown it has speed of 3.5. Warp prisms are faster than that at 3.9
On June 20 2013 09:24 Jaded. wrote: this is really just a bandaid fix, I'm still of the opinion that protoss needs a redesign instead of these small bandaids. Personally I would start with removing warpgate and buffing gateway units so that they're more than just a meat shield (and a bad one at that) for your colossus or templars. Obviously that change would need a lot of testing to find out just how big a buff and how big a nerf robo/stargate units will take. But this might just be me wishing for SC:BW HD edition.
Redesign of a fundamental mechanic will probably never occur, eventhough wg is a stupid mechanic which mitigate defenders advantag. Taking away defenders advantage force the nerf on the gateway units or else they would be op, which you are implying. This is also the reason protoss realy heavily on gimmicks since their base units are too weak while their tech unit are too strong. Leading to either all-in warpgate play or turtleing high tech plays. ----- on topic: Good change let's see how this turns out. I hope blizzard still has an eye on hellbat drops.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
however, medivacs have 8 marines. warp prism warps in 10-20 zealots, you are fucked unless your army is in position. also when medivac speed is on cooldown it has speed of 3.5. Warp prisms are faster than that at 3.9
But zerg could have ~25 overlords if they're maxed out. That's their ENTIRE ARMY that they can drop in your base at once!!!
There's a limitation to how unique a race can be too, so on some basic level there needs to be some compensatory features to Protoss harass vs Terran harass. If Terrans hold the crown for moblity, DPS, resilience, unavoidability, and cost efficiency, then what else is left for Protoss? Sometimes characteristics need to be shared, but they can be achieved differently. Ultimately, there's still a very simple equation that every race must satisfy, me = alive, you = dead.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
And warp prisms with a gateway in them have a massive 0 movement speed. Don't be silly now, a viking or two on the edge of your base can stop in base warp ins just fine. A Zealot drops nothing compared to a marine/hellbat medivac drop.
One viking should still be enough to shut down warp prism harass if properly positioned. Warping in "a whole army in your base" still won't work as you can shoot the warp prism down before the units finish warping. Seems to me like it'd still be easier than dealing with speed medivacs, since gateway unit dps is so low.
I think this will mostly be used for four zealot drops or storm drops, rather than warping in 20+ supply in the opponent's base. We might even see some colossus drops in competitive play
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
You can't kill a Medivac with a Viking either. And before you complain about warp-in capability, note that if a Warp Prism is chased away, it isn't warping in units. Besides, this really only affects the early/mid-game, during which point Protoss will have a low Gateway count (unless he's all-inning, in which case WP speed is irrelevant) anyway, so you can just mop up the harass, leave a few Marines or build a Turret to stop the Prism for warping in (stimmed bio kills a Prism before it can drop/warp in anything if you're paying attention) and go kill the guy who has half his army invested in a dropship. Should easily be able to deny his third.
The warp prism is already really really strong. It baffles me that I don't face it every single game ! It's going to be rough that with this patch because toss players are probably gonna realise how good it is and just use it all the time!
On June 20 2013 10:03 teddyoojo wrote: yeah buff protoss when its almost 50% protoss in gm already
Yeah, the issue is that Protoss is much better on ladder than in competitive play it seems. They have a ridiculous amount of simple and abusive strats that can just outright kill you if you are not well prepared. But as soon as it comes to tournaments and you get several tries against the same opponent and maybe even know their tendencies, then they lose a lot of that strength. A bit frustrating for us ladder chumps :p
Also, I am pretty sick of waiting for the hellbat nerf... I wish they would at least have given me that to look forward to amidst all the warp ins in my base :p
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
I don't want to engage in balance discussion, but this could actually be very problematic: Protoss have 4.25 speed Phoenix, the fastest Terran Air Unit is 2.75
Anyways, does anyone know what the speed upgrade does now? Or is it the same upgraded speed, just better unupgraded speed?
in my opinion the biggest problem with starcraft right now is pvz. The problem is that protoss allins are better then macro play even at the highest level possible and it doesn't matter what protoss scouts in the match. I don't really see this doing much except early harass, maybe it can have some use in the late game, but the changes they needed to do was before Starcraft was released because they are so big.
On June 20 2013 10:08 StarscreamG1 wrote: Does this buff disables mass hellbats drops on our army?
Does that actually happen in PvT? I've only seen it used in tank vs tank wars.
It can and the hellbats are so tanky with the healing that they don't die fast enough. Its not super common because you need a lot of hellbats, but it can happen.
Lowering the risk associated with everything, how exciting. They should give warp prisms the Mulligan buff: the ability to play the game back from 2 minutes prior. Even though I play toss and perhaps feel they got the short end of the stick, I don't want matching no risk buffs. If anything, I want them removed.
A more important thing to consider is that toss was the weakest in WoL, yet you're limited to making 1-2 oracles in any mu (0 probably in p vs z). The mothership core is capped to 1. And tempests aren't even made besides in very rare and specific cases outside of p vs p (obviously mirror mu's don't affect balance between other races). Given no other race is limited to making 2 of whichever new unit... the new toss units should probably be stronger than they currently are.
1 of each new unit and a speed increase that is canceled out by the speed increase to medivacs doesn't sound like it does the trick. How many imbalanced threads do you see over the oracle or mothership core? It's hard to lose to 1 unit.
Vikings are such a joke. Can't catch medivacs, don't beat phoenix, can't handle mutas. Now they're useless against warp prisms too. About the only units a viking really counters are colossus and brood lords and they don't shoot back. So if they're worthless as antiair how are they supposed to be used? Landing them?
On June 20 2013 10:30 BaronVonOwn wrote: Vikings are such a joke. Can't catch medivacs, don't beat phoenix, can't handle mutas. Now they're useless against warp prisms too. About the only units a viking really counters are colossus and brood lords and they don't shoot back. So if they're worthless as antiair how are they supposed to be used? Landing them?
Yes, because the only situations in which vikings are ever used are when they're trying to chase units. Ignore all the times when you put two vikings at the side of your base and when someone tries to drop with a medivac/warp prism, you just kill it.
As a Protoss player I'm not entirely convinced by this pacth... I don't know how to put it, but I don't really like the idea of the WP being such a good unit. I'd prefer my drop tactics to be actually hard to pull off. I'd rather they nerf the other race's drop & harass capabilities, than buff mine's.
Granted, I'm not part of the design team, but from what I understand the WP was supposed to be a high risk / high reward unit; extremely fragile but able to turn the tide of the game in one instant. It seems that we're getting farther from this original design.
lol @ terran tears. Saying it moves faster than vikings, vikings shoot missiles 9 range. Patrol a viking on the edge of your base and build turrets? (mid to late game). It's the same thing protoss are forced to cannon in mineral lines pre emptively. -_-
On June 20 2013 10:30 BaronVonOwn wrote: Vikings are such a joke. Can't catch medivacs, don't beat phoenix, can't handle mutas. Now they're useless against warp prisms too. About the only units a viking really counters are colossus and brood lords and they don't shoot back. So if they're worthless as antiair how are they supposed to be used? Landing them?
They're supposed to be used to kill Colossi, Brood Lords, and to use their 9 range to zone your opponent's air units.
On June 20 2013 10:30 BaronVonOwn wrote: Vikings are such a joke. Can't catch medivacs, don't beat phoenix, can't handle mutas. Now they're useless against warp prisms too. About the only units a viking really counters are colossus and brood lords and they don't shoot back. So if they're worthless as antiair how are they supposed to be used? Landing them?
They're supposed to be used to kill Colossi, Brood Lords, and to use their 9 range to zone your opponent's air units.
He doesn't want to whine about what viking CAN do. Its because they can't do EVERYTHING is what he wants to whine about.
On June 20 2013 10:37 IcedBacon wrote: I gave up on playing SC2 competitively to play more DotA. Looks like I made the right call, this is a dumb unnecessary change.
Yes, you definitely know the validity of the change without trying it.
As a Terran I've always been a big fan of this change. TvP is the most frustrating matchup for me to play because I feel like I often outplay my opponent but still lose because Protoss is designed to turtle until they can have one mega push. I would LOVE if my TvP losses were because the protoss out-multitasked me in multiple small engagements throughout the game.
I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
so after prisms can outrun everything now, can they remove the shield booster ? Never found it challenging to use a prism after their shield buff, the lil flying speed fortress. Curious why Terrans complain so much, I noticed the prism change the most in PvP (Pretty evil thingie as long as blink is missing) and then in PvZ (Corrupter to slow ! Queen too heh). Didn't felt more effective in PvT for me though outrunning the Viking was easier then before, but a single Viking never posed a problem anyway.
Anyway better watch those Artosis Pylons in PvP now, Immortal Prism will find them and kite your Stalkers.
The solution is to land your vikings and put in a medivac which is then boosted to catch up to the WP and then unload the viking and send it into air mode.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
I don't want to engage in balance discussion, but this could actually be very problematic: Protoss have 4.25 speed Phoenix, the fastest Terran Air Unit is 2.75
Anyways, does anyone know what the speed upgrade does now? Or is it the same upgraded speed, just better unupgraded speed?
You know, that does seem a bit silly. Back in BW science vessels were 5 speed (same as workers in bw / 2.8125 in SC2) and wraiths were 6.67 (3.75 in SC2 terms) and now they move so slow.
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
The problem I have with this change isn't that speed prisms are somehow terribly difficult to deal with, it's that they keep making arbitrary changes on a whim.
Remember the queen patch? 8 months worth of tournaments down the shitter, to make a "balance" change to an already balanced matchup. They could very well do it again if someone or something doesn't make them change their way of thinking.
Lol Yes, the ultra-late game 5+ base scenario where the toss has 30 warpgates and flies a warp prism into your base to warp in 30 zealots.... now apparently insanely hard to deal with because of 0.453 speed upgrade... that is soundly eclipsed by the existing and still to be existing warp prism speed upgrade that any protoss could easily have at this point in the game..... right.
This change is going to do very little to address any of the core issues that protoss is having trouble with. It's a cute little buff that will be experimented with in the beginning, but will ultimately be forgotten. When the units you are dropping / warping in from the warpgate are still bad for cost / low dps / easily avoided / a combination of these things, making the prism faster isn't going to do much.
Yet again, another change that will ultimately have the most impact and be seen the most in the matchup for which it wasn't intended to address... PvP.
On June 20 2013 10:30 BaronVonOwn wrote: Vikings are such a joke. Can't catch medivacs, don't beat phoenix, can't handle mutas. Now they're useless against warp prisms too. About the only units a viking really counters are colossus and brood lords and they don't shoot back. So if they're worthless as antiair how are they supposed to be used? Landing them?
when their are useless , land them in the mineral line . if you dont need them dont make them . in tvt they are vital if mech . in pvt they are vital vs colossus . i dont know zvt but i saw innovation make sometimes 1 to clear overlords . they were never designed to catch medievaks / beat pheonix or kill mutas .
The game with those stupids patches. No more fun to play.
This WCS thing , that killed all interrest @ watching SC ( mean cmon, Bo1, CRAPPY prods, wtf ?! and no more any other SC to watch exept that sh... .........). No more fun to watch.
It's also imbalanced!! But derpfestors and marines and immortals can still all hold hands kk? And yes, even the angry zealot that doesn't have his charge boots.
Holy fucking shit, some of the stuff in this thread haha.
Terrans, rather than thinking 'oh we dodged a bullet with Hellbats for another patch' and bowing before the altar of David Kim, are complaining about a small tweak that won't realistically affect the things that are problematic. Something like the Tails DT drop build is essentially unchanged from its current form. A more manouverable Warp Prism is not the issue, the ability to play THAT greedily with the MSC is the problem. OR they're complaining about lategame situations where the Protoss have the capacity to have an even faster Warp Prism already
Zergs, I don't even. Either they'll 'make allins better' by being faster moving. I have yet to see why this is the case, but I've been reliably informed it's true. There will be a small improvement, any buff to a unit will see that, but Protoss allins are not timed around the Warp Prism arriving and turning into phase mode.
I do see Sentry ramp FFs being something that people might explore more, but that's a problem with FFs.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
But by the same token, the Warp Prism can't carry anything like marines, marauders, hellbats, mines or hellions - all way better and cheaper in a drop than anything Protoss CAN drop/warp in .
The speed prism upgrade should still be available, if their previous trailled patch notes are any indication.
These are the notes from the 14/06 trialled balance patch:
Warp Prism Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953 (previously 2.5 to 3.375.) Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 2.625 (previously 2.125 to 3.25.) The Gravitic Drive upgrade has returned to the Robotics Bay and will increase movement speed to 3.375 and acceleration to 3.25 when researched.
Wait and see how this turns out. If prism harass is considered too strong for a while after this patch, they might revert it. Until then, sit tight and see what happens - would more varied games kill anyone?
More varied cheese* It hurts zerg the most, but moatly it's because of map design. It'll be interesting though if they reduce the cost of roach burrow movement upgrade if this is too strong against zerg
ye especially in late game situations this is going to be a pain in the ass for terran because they have no static defenses like spine crawlers or cannons...
This patch will not change too much in low-mid level of the game (Broze-mid Diamond) because actualy playing defensively with protoss vs terran is still viable. It will make the match in high level up to the pro level more enjoyable because not only the terrans will play aggressive. As a protoss/terran player, I think this will just give protoss players that want to reach higher level a better chance to do so because it will help them skip over the lesser terran that will not know how to deal with this new kind of drop.
This won't change much and definitely isn't matchup breaking. It'll be cool to see what progamers can do with it but at lower levels a slightly faster prism is pretty meaningless.
On June 20 2013 09:47 Belha wrote: Wait, as a P I honestly care much more about a hellbat nerf than a prism buff. What about hellbats??
Learn to defend mid game drops. It is obvious Blizzard is expanding the meta, which is a good thing. Now every race has to pay attention on their mini map and spend late game bank on static defenses.
Overall I am just not sure the Protoss needed more harass options. The speed itself does not bother me, but with already having Oracles and DT's, along with zealot run ins during the later game, I think protoss has plenty of harass.
The Terran need the great harass because the Protoss army crushes the Terran army in a straight up fight. If the Terran does not harass well it will lose, period. So I disagree that Protoss need a harass buff.
If Blizzard was looking to make the game more dynamic with a harass buff, maybe that would be OK if we in turn took away the nexus cannon, which keeps protoss auto safe until at least 4 medivacs are out.
I dunno if this buff will be good though... In the late game, Protoss is going to be unbeatable now. Smart Protoss will get their death ball going and max said death ball at around 180 supply. Then they can just fly Warp Prisims around and make Zealots or DTs and destroy everything in their path while engaging the main army. But since this is a late game situation, I guess the Warp Prism speed upgrade comes with the same concerns.
On June 20 2013 12:30 Spec wrote: Can't Terran players just load up marines on their Turbovacs and chase down the warp prism and just snipe it with stim?
Its not nearly as mechanically simple as you make it sound, and all toss has to do to avoid that is to move the prism back out over empty space and its safe. You have to not only have a speedvac nearby with marines already underneath it, you then have to hit the boost and hope to catch the prism in the short 8 second window the afterburners work for, and shift drop marines along its path, while at the same time stimming those dropped marines in the hope to get two or three in range by the time the prism makes it back over a cliff edge.
And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote: And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago.
This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit.
On June 20 2013 13:08 geokilla wrote: Lol all these Bronze noobs.
I dunno if this buff will be good though... In the late game, Protoss is going to be unbeatable now. Smart Protoss will get their death ball going and max said death ball at around 180 supply. Then they can just fly Warp Prisims around and make Zealots or DTs and destroy everything in their path while engaging the main army. But since this is a late game situation, I guess the Warp Prism speed upgrade comes with the same concerns.
In the late game, all good Protoss players will have already upgraded warp prism speed so that they can harass anyway.
In other words, this buff does absolutely nothing to affect the late game.
EDIT: It's also funny that you called everyone else a bronze noob when you missed this fact >.> (Although I do agree that there is a ton of silly complaining going on, much like in every other patch/ nerf/ buff thread.)
On June 20 2013 13:04 saddaromma wrote: gateway units suck at harassing, this wp buff is pointless (except making it easier to all-in zergs).
Zealot counters in PvT are actually quite strong.
DTs are good too.
place a hellbat and turret in your mineral line. Put PF at your 3rd and 4th. There's nothing wp can do, other than warping in bunch of units and donating them to terran.
On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote: And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago.
This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit.
Taeja is a superior player to herO, and should therefore win a majority of those matches. And the same could be said for protoss having a superior counter for every single terran unit, it just all depends on how those units are used during the engagement, and protoss micro is insanely easy in a maxed out fight compared to what terran has to do. Husky is a low masters player, and he keeps his entire army on one hotkey, whereas terran needs a minimum of 3 (bio, ghosts, and vikings).
On June 20 2013 13:04 saddaromma wrote: gateway units suck at harassing, this wp buff is pointless (except making it easier to all-in zergs).
Zealot counters in PvT are actually quite strong.
DTs are good too.
place a hellbat and turret in your mineral line. Put PF at your 3rd and 4th. There's nothing wp can do, other than warping in bunch of units and donating them to terran.
If you put a pf at your third youve already done more economic damage to yourself than the toss could have hoped to do with zlot warp ins.
Edit: Also one hellbat is not going to hold off dts
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
lol..... as if protoss wasnt annoying already with warp prisms............... this pretty much negates zerg sh play now as we saw in jaedong vs. stardust
On June 20 2013 13:12 EFermi wrote: No hellbat nerf? Why??
On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote: And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago.
This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit.
Taeja is a superior player to herO, and should therefore win a majority of those matches. And the same could be said for protoss having a superior counter for every single terran unit, it just all depends on how those units are used during the engagement, and protoss micro is insanely easy in a maxed out fight compared to what terran has to do. Husky is a low masters player, and he keeps his entire army on one hotkey, whereas terran needs a minimum of 3 (bio, ghosts, and vikings).
Wrong on both accounts. herO is absolutely not inferior to TaeJA in any way, (other than maybe the race he's chosen). Terran units are not countered anywhere near as hard compared to protoss, with the exception of the marine, the dealing of which is the backbone of any XvT build.
Protoss hotkeys can be spread out as well if you want perfect control. Doesn't really matter since anyone with 5 fingers can press 1a2a3a.
On June 20 2013 13:12 EFermi wrote: No hellbat nerf? Why??
On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote: And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago.
This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit.
Taeja is a superior player to herO, and should therefore win a majority of those matches. And the same could be said for protoss having a superior counter for every single terran unit, it just all depends on how those units are used during the engagement, and protoss micro is insanely easy in a maxed out fight compared to what terran has to do. Husky is a low masters player, and he keeps his entire army on one hotkey, whereas terran needs a minimum of 3 (bio, ghosts, and vikings).
Wrong on both accounts. herO is absolutely not inferior to TaeJA in any way, (other than maybe the race he's chosen). Terran units are not countered anywhere near as hard compared to protoss, with the exception of the marine, the dealing of which is the backbone of any XvT build.
Protoss hotkeys can be spread out as well if you want perfect control. Doesn't really matter since anyone with 5 fingers can press 1a2a3a.
Lol, yeah nice try troll. Just try a moving ghosts at all and see what happens (they die very quickly), or try just a moving vikings into a large group of stalkers (same thing), oh and guess what, same thing with bio. Terran has to split their bio, only commit their vikings if the collosi are actually gonna stay and fire (which is of course at the point and time of toss' choosing), keep their ghosts alive long enough the emp/snipe ht and archons without dying to the instacast feedback, while simultaneously kiting bio vs chargelots, storms, and collosi shots.
And what does protoss have to do during this? A move their entire army, which allows the chargelots to force back the bio, giving stalkers more than enough time to pick of the vikings if the commit then, or collosi to gets shots of on ghosts/bio if they dont. Im not saying Terran cant win straight up fights, its just so much more mechanically taxing for them to do so.
And as far as herO being "absolutely not inferior to Taeja in any way", thats like, uh, your opinion man.
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
On June 20 2013 09:14 Detri wrote: Nice change, and I am a terran player btw. Protoss need some more viable harass that doesn't involve them going allin.
Guess i'll be getting some sensor towers in TvP.
It must not be much fun just sitting in your base defending and trying to hit a timing without taking much damage. Should make toss a little more exciting to watch at the pro level too, because at the minute IN GENERAL the protoss matchups are pretty dull to watch (imho)
Only worthwhile post in this thread. This man gets it.
Shit, this warp prism buff might make me reconsider moving over to Terran. Protoss has just been so GODDAMN boring to play/watch for me lately.
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
On June 20 2013 10:53 ZackAttack wrote: Everyone Mad.
An absolute truth! XD
Anyway, why did Blizzard try to nerf Hellbat when hellbat DROP is the problem? (and why did they buffed warp prism with 65% yes vote but still no hellbat nerf when 80+% said yes?)
On June 20 2013 10:53 ZackAttack wrote: Everyone Mad.
An absolute truth! XD
Anyway, why did Blizzard try to nerf Hellbat when hellbat DROP is the problem? (and why did they buffed warp prism with 65% yes vote but still no hellbat nerf when 80+% said yes?)
Although i love TL.net i don't think polls on this site affect greatly what blizz does.
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it.
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
Interesting change, Terrans will have to learn to scout instead of blindly following Innovation build order into Hellbats, but they have the tools to deal with the harass easily once scouted.
Zerg might suffer the most i guess due to the low DPS of spores, time will tell
On June 20 2013 14:51 Topdoller wrote: Interesting change, Terrans will have to learn to scout instead of blindly following Innovation build order into Hellbats, but they have the tools to deal with the harass easily once scouted.
Zerg might suffer the most i guess due to the low DPS of spores, time will tell
How exactly could Terrans blindly follow INnoVations build order before the patch? Terran always has to scout. Protoss already has so many things that can deliver pain to Terran and nearly all of them require a different reaction out of Terran.
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it.
We're not zerg, we dont have overlords to just keep spread out around the drop paths to see if one is incoming. If all it takes is "good map vision across the map and around your base" to thwart drops, then why cant protoss just do that and deny all of terrans drops? Because thats a ridiculous way to approach the situation, and its virtually impossible to depend on that to catch drops that can travel over dead space.
But whereas toss' army is usually very close to home, and they have photon overcharge, and photon cannons to attack both the medivacs and the units it drops, terrans army is usually spread out, and only has turrets, which can be taken out quickly with dropped (not warped in) zlots, thus allowing the prism to come back and warp in another round (which means btw that it only takes 6 gates to quickly get 10 zlots in the base). Please stop posting mindlessly, as you've clearly not actually given it any real thought with such great wisdom as "just deal with it".
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it.
We're not zerg, we dont have overlords to just keep spread out around the drop paths to see if one is incoming. If all it takes is "good map vision across the map and around your base" to thwart drops, then why cant protoss just do that and deny all of terrans drops? Because thats a ridiculous way to approach the situation, and its virtually impossible to depend on that to catch drops that can travel over dead space.
But whereas toss' army is usually very close to home, and they have photon overcharge, and photon cannons to attack both the medivacs and the units it drops, terrans army is usually spread out, and only has turrets, which can be taken out quickly with dropped (not warped in) zlots, thus allowing the prism to come back and warp in another round (which means btw that it only takes 6 gates to quickly get 10 zlots in the base). Please stop posting mindlessly, as you've clearly not actually given it any real thought with such great wisdom as "just deal with it".
And why is Toss army usually close to home? Because of *#&@ing medivac drops.
You have sensor towers, maybe time to start using them? I already make 3+ observers to spot drops, and those cost supply as well as resources, plus eat up production time for potentially valuable attacking units.
Terran army can also afford to be spread out, because the Terran army (bio, not really mech) is extremely effective still even in small chunks.
Play Protoss sometime, really make an effort at it. You will see it's not all roses and puppies and rainbows and blowjobs on our side of the fence.
I think this buff is being vastly overestimated. As a Protoss player, I'm struggling to think of situations in which making a slightly faster warp prism is much more beneficial to me than using that production time on another immortal or Colossus. Except in the late game obviously, when I've already got the speed boost researched.
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
'Just learn and deal with is' is what Terrans have been told since the beginning of time when getting nerfed all over again and thats what Terrans did. They dealt with it and came up with new builds, unique styles and strategies every once in a while again. Once Terran got a buff in their builds/units, Protoss and Zerg are trying to drown us in tears. I don't feel like this patch will change too much. Warp prisms were annoying to begin with, now they are a little more annoying. I don't think Terran will react in a very different way. Maybe we will get a turret now and leave 1 viking or a widow mine there. A good Protoss will always get the warp prism in your base and since its a "general" buff to its speed and the speedupgrade doesn't change the top speed I don't actually have a big problem with the patch. I still hope it won't be an all in / colossus drop party now.
But about your notes in PvT, I have to tell you that you are not a very good player or at least you do a very bad job at presenting yourself. In PvT I would agree that you cannot completely scout what Terran is doing, but saying you can have no clue and/or it could be anything is wrong. If you scout 1 gas you can already click on it and tell if its a 12 gas, a 13 gas or even a gas first build. Knowing a bit of Terran timings, 12 barracks/12 gas will mostly result in a reaper which takes longer to produce, so by the time he should have a marine, he will not have one. -> Reaper.
If you check a gas timing and figure a 12 gas and a marine pops out you can expect a tech build, it still could also be reactor into factory, but thats a tech build in my book, just after expansion. Its like saying you cannot figure out what Protoss is doing as Terran. Its not easy to tell, because most of the Protoss builds look very similar or can be faked by Protoss to look very similar, but if you take some time and talk to a Protoss you can figure out stuff. How many probes on gas, how many probes on minerals, 2nd pylon? 3rd pylon? What are the timings? MSC building? Stalker building? Warpgate researching?
There's plenty of stuff that will give a good player an edge, same against Terran. A good Protoss will know Terran stuff and read properly. Also, as you pointed out I would disagree. Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well. Its just nowadays Protoss prefer to be as greedy as possible because they are the strong race in the early game. MSC has huge defensive and offensive potential and Terran has to make sure he doesn't die to early aggression. There's a lot of stuff that straight kills Terran if he decides to be aggressive and is hit by it, so by any means please don't make it sound like its WoL still. The times with Terran moving around the map with a small bio army scouting for Pylons before medivacs is long gone and the first 2 medivac drop rarely deals damage. It rarely dealt damage in WoL, but it was a way bigger threat back then and Protoss couldn't take chances and go for 1 gate expansion into robo into 2 forges into twilight, before even adding a good amount of gates.
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
By scout i mean have good map vision across map and around your base, and yeah just deal with it.
We're not zerg, we dont have overlords to just keep spread out around the drop paths to see if one is incoming. If all it takes is "good map vision across the map and around your base" to thwart drops, then why cant protoss just do that and deny all of terrans drops? Because thats a ridiculous way to approach the situation, and its virtually impossible to depend on that to catch drops that can travel over dead space.
But whereas toss' army is usually very close to home, and they have photon overcharge, and photon cannons to attack both the medivacs and the units it drops, terrans army is usually spread out, and only has turrets, which can be taken out quickly with dropped (not warped in) zlots, thus allowing the prism to come back and warp in another round (which means btw that it only takes 6 gates to quickly get 10 zlots in the base). Please stop posting mindlessly, as you've clearly not actually given it any real thought with such great wisdom as "just deal with it".
i have thought at great lengths about it, i just don't feel the need to post everything that goes through my head, only the conclusion i come to, id advise you to do the same sir.
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:
On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
'Just learn and deal with is' is what Terrans have been told since the beginning of time when getting nerfed all over again and thats what Terrans did. They dealt with it and came up with new builds, unique styles and strategies every once in a while again. Once Terran got a buff in their builds/units, Protoss and Zerg are trying to drown us in tears. I don't feel like this patch will change too much. Warp prisms were annoying to begin with, now they are a little more annoying. I don't think Terran will react in a very different way. Maybe we will get a turret now and leave 1 viking or a widow mine there. A good Protoss will always get the warp prism in your base and since its a "general" buff to its speed and the speedupgrade doesn't change the top speed I don't actually have a big problem with the patch. I still hope it won't be an all in / colossus drop party now.
But about your notes in PvT, I have to tell you that you are not a very good player or at least you do a very bad job at presenting yourself. In PvT I would agree that you cannot completely scout what Terran is doing, but saying you can have no clue and/or it could be anything is wrong. If you scout 1 gas you can already click on it and tell if its a 12 gas, a 13 gas or even a gas first build. Knowing a bit of Terran timings, 12 barracks/12 gas will mostly result in a reaper which takes longer to produce, so by the time he should have a marine, he will not have one. -> Reaper.
If you check a gas timing and figure a 12 gas and a marine pops out you can expect a tech build, it still could also be reactor into factory, but thats a tech build in my book, just after expansion. Its like saying you cannot figure out what Protoss is doing as Terran. Its not easy to tell, because most of the Protoss builds look very similar or can be faked by Protoss to look very similar, but if you take some time and talk to a Protoss you can figure out stuff. How many probes on gas, how many probes on minerals, 2nd pylon? 3rd pylon? What are the timings? MSC building? Stalker building? Warpgate researching?
There's plenty of stuff that will give a good player an edge, same against Terran. A good Protoss will know Terran stuff and read properly. Also, as you pointed out I would disagree. Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well. Its just nowadays Protoss prefer to be as greedy as possible because they are the strong race in the early game. MSC has huge defensive and offensive potential and Terran has to make sure he doesn't die to early aggression. There's a lot of stuff that straight kills Terran if he decides to be aggressive and is hit by it, so by any means please don't make it sound like its WoL still. The times with Terran moving around the map with a small bio army scouting for Pylons before medivacs is long gone and the first 2 medivac drop rarely deals damage. It rarely dealt damage in WoL, but it was a way bigger threat back then and Protoss couldn't take chances and go for 1 gate expansion into robo into 2 forges into twilight, before even adding a good amount of gates.
I was mostly trying to illustrate a point against the "OMG ROBO WUT DOES IT MEAN!?" guy I was responding to. Figuring out what you've scouted is a huge part of learning how to get better at this game.
I do, however, disagree with this greatly: "Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well."
Holy crap the terran whining in this thread. 70% medivac boost plus the addition of hellbats to the race already with the strongest drops is fine apparently, but a 30% prism boost means the sky is falling. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is going not going to change much, *especially* in the lategame (where speed prisms are still exactly the same speed...)
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
LOL 30 production facilities? Lets say its end game and toss has 20 gates... how about terran having a lot more army due to mules? IT IS a DUMB comparison. You dont compare a medivac with a warp prism.
A single viking is still enough to shut the scary part of warpprism down actually. You guys are forgetting warpprisms need to deploy first to be able to warp units directly, and 4 zealots in the base at a time really isnt that scary :/
Regarding late game - Im sure most terrans who find this scary never actually had TvP's go past 15 minutes if they could do anything about it
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:
On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
'Just learn and deal with is' is what Terrans have been told since the beginning of time when getting nerfed all over again and thats what Terrans did. They dealt with it and came up with new builds, unique styles and strategies every once in a while again. Once Terran got a buff in their builds/units, Protoss and Zerg are trying to drown us in tears. I don't feel like this patch will change too much. Warp prisms were annoying to begin with, now they are a little more annoying. I don't think Terran will react in a very different way. Maybe we will get a turret now and leave 1 viking or a widow mine there. A good Protoss will always get the warp prism in your base and since its a "general" buff to its speed and the speedupgrade doesn't change the top speed I don't actually have a big problem with the patch. I still hope it won't be an all in / colossus drop party now.
But about your notes in PvT, I have to tell you that you are not a very good player or at least you do a very bad job at presenting yourself. In PvT I would agree that you cannot completely scout what Terran is doing, but saying you can have no clue and/or it could be anything is wrong. If you scout 1 gas you can already click on it and tell if its a 12 gas, a 13 gas or even a gas first build. Knowing a bit of Terran timings, 12 barracks/12 gas will mostly result in a reaper which takes longer to produce, so by the time he should have a marine, he will not have one. -> Reaper.
If you check a gas timing and figure a 12 gas and a marine pops out you can expect a tech build, it still could also be reactor into factory, but thats a tech build in my book, just after expansion. Its like saying you cannot figure out what Protoss is doing as Terran. Its not easy to tell, because most of the Protoss builds look very similar or can be faked by Protoss to look very similar, but if you take some time and talk to a Protoss you can figure out stuff. How many probes on gas, how many probes on minerals, 2nd pylon? 3rd pylon? What are the timings? MSC building? Stalker building? Warpgate researching?
There's plenty of stuff that will give a good player an edge, same against Terran. A good Protoss will know Terran stuff and read properly. Also, as you pointed out I would disagree. Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well. Its just nowadays Protoss prefer to be as greedy as possible because they are the strong race in the early game. MSC has huge defensive and offensive potential and Terran has to make sure he doesn't die to early aggression. There's a lot of stuff that straight kills Terran if he decides to be aggressive and is hit by it, so by any means please don't make it sound like its WoL still. The times with Terran moving around the map with a small bio army scouting for Pylons before medivacs is long gone and the first 2 medivac drop rarely deals damage. It rarely dealt damage in WoL, but it was a way bigger threat back then and Protoss couldn't take chances and go for 1 gate expansion into robo into 2 forges into twilight, before even adding a good amount of gates.
I was mostly trying to illustrate a point against the "OMG ROBO WUT DOES IT MEAN!?" guy I was responding to. Figuring out what you've scouted is a huge part of learning how to get better at this game.
I do, however, disagree with this greatly: "Harass is hugely nerfed in the early game against Protoss. Basically no aggression without medivacs can be applied and the aggression that can come early, can be denied pretty well."
But that's a discussion for another thread.
You can PM me, I'd discuss with great pleasure how a Terran should apply pressure against photon overcharge and the potential threat of not retreating against a timewarp . The only 'good thing' that would allow harass is lack of detection , lack of sentries due to greed (fast upgrades) or safety (MSC). Other than that... I really don't see harass options. You can poke with marine/mine, but a good Protoss will not really suffer a lot from it, especially as you could kite the marines until they arrive at your base. If you are talking about 2 rax reaper, that is indeed a good option, but it will also not deal huge damage if Protoss knows how to play against it, but its good to keep him inbase and expand twice behind
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
Planetary Nexus--> safe to turtle ultra mega super greedy Wol early game timings are useless vs turtle deathball 1a players.
Protoss can outright kill Terran with, 10gate mommacore push, oracles, blink allin, 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 6-8 gate, 3 gate voidray etc etc if denied scouting. O shit i went mega greedy while he does a 5 rax timing on 2 bases, NP just planetary nexus EZ. Sorry but every protoss not at the top of sc2 has a far more easy time than the other races.
On June 20 2013 11:06 _Search_ wrote: I'm not saying this change is going to ruin the game, but it is another totally idiotic Blizzard patch to rival such missteps as the snipe nerf or strike cannons nerf.
They think this is going to give Protoss more harassment in PvT. All it will do is make the gap between PvZ even wider and drive even more Zergs out of major tournaments. The recent weeks of WCS have shown Zergs falling off in record numbers. Literally only one has made it from Challenger to Premier in WCS America so far, and WCS Korea is not going well for them either.
Blizzard has to get their shit together. These joke patches are an insult to people who actually play the game.
How much of that is due to Warp Prisms?
Protoss don't even have the cash to really pump into big warpin harassment in the period of the game where the passive speed boost will be applying. In the lategame, Protoss have the money to invest in WPs upgrade which is even faster than the current change is proposing.
None but we all know the resurgence of immortal/sentry is just around the corner. It was never fixed in WoL and is still completely broken.
It starts with Warp Prism harass that is already completely unpreventable (note: this is Blizzard's idea of a "dynamic" game. Harassment that literally cannot be defended because Zerg isn't allowed to kill air units).
Personally I think this buff changes nothing, just like most patches by Blizzard, including the brain-dead spore crawler buff.
If anything Blizzard is making their game worse by not coming to grip with facts and dealing with the major problems with their game head-on. All they do is band-aid solutions that really only further reveal the inherent problems.
Brain dead spore crawler patch changed nothing? Oh is that why every ZvZ is literally only mass muta vs mass muta now? Oh wait.....
On June 20 2013 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
On June 20 2013 14:35 00higgo wrote:
On June 20 2013 14:19 Survivor61316 wrote:
On June 20 2013 13:59 00higgo wrote: Well there is a lot of Terrans that don't like the idea of being dropped. has to be a good change
Lol what a foolish post. Ill give you a hint man, in TVTs, the other Terran can, wait for it, DROP YOU!
Its not getting dropped on thats our problem, its giving such a better tool for protoss to do it specifically. And as far as a unit for getting army into your opponents base, the warp prism is much better than the medivac, as one warp prism can easily let 10+ zealots go into the base in a matter of seconds. It would take at least 3 medivacs to match that, which would be a serious commitment, and would be considered a doom drop.
Lol chill dude, you act like this will be the single most imba thing in the game. Defend well and scout bro, and no one is warping 10 zel untill late game unless they are really bad. you should just learn how to deal with it like everyone had to with medivac speed or hellbats in general.
Yeahh, just learn how to deal with it huh? Bc thats good advice.. And are you kidding me, "scout bro"?? Scout what? A robo? Bc that couldnt be used for anything else it a PvT..oh wait. So now we're on defend well..with what? Just leave 10-15 supply at each base in case zlot warp ins come? Not exactly a good solution. We dont have a one size fits all static defense like the photon cannon, or photon overcharge for that matter.
"Just learn how to deal with it" is exactly what Terran players have been telling P and Z since the start of HotS, so yes, take your own advice.
You know how useless it is to scout a Terran early game? You see a Barracks and one gas. That could be ANYTHING, a lot of which you can just straight up die to if you guess wrong.
You know how much it takes to defend even just a single medivac drop? Add in a second medivacs worth and suddenly you're looking at having to either cannon the shit out of your mineral lines, or leave valuable HTs at home and leave 6 gateways or more on perma cooldown just so you can move out on the map.
None of this stuff is a hugely insurmountable problem, and is a part of learning to play PvT. It keeps things interesting. Having said that, mobility and harass has 100% been in favor of T in the TvP matchup, this is meant to address that. I kind of doubt it will, though. Time spent making a warp prism before late game is time spent not making immortals/colossus so you don't just up and die to pushes. This is really critical when you're trying to take a 3rd and only on one robo (which is 100% standard)
Planetary Nexus--> safe to turtle ultra mega super greedy Wol early game timings are useless vs turtle deathball 1a players.
Protoss can outright kill Terran with, 10gate mommacore push, oracles, blink allin, 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 6-8 gate, 3 gate voidray etc etc if denied scouting. O shit i went mega greedy while he does a 5 rax timing on 2 bases, NP just planetary nexus EZ. Sorry but every protoss not at the top of sc2 has a far more easy time than the other races.
If you went for a 5 rax timing on 2 bases and still failed to kill the protoss who went super greedy Im sure you are doing something wrong o_O
Thank god. Getting tired of harass being shut down by 1 viking or 1 turret. Every other race has continuously received buffs that reward good harassment micro while Protoss got nothing.
On June 20 2013 15:39 SidewinderSC2 wrote: Thank god. Getting tired of harass being shut down by 1 viking or 1 turret. Every other race has continuously received buffs that reward good harassment micro while Protoss got nothing.
couldn t agree more, i m happy that they made this change
What is worrying it that warp prims only cost minerals and have such a great amount of life (100shield/100hp) that it does not promote micro. With the new speed, it just flies over turret, and if it dies to some marine after that, no big deal, no gas lost.
i like the buff, but imo they should reduce its shield to 50 so that the unit becomes micro intensive
Losing a warp prism that was destined to harass is not a "no big deal" at all. If you were planning on harassing, it wasn't just for fun, it's because it was an important strategic decision. As the Warp Prism is now, losing it in a build that you want or need to harass with is devastating.
Looking forward to the next matches, PvZ gonna get some shakes and PvP might see some nice "surprise: 2 Immos in a Prism!" plays. Cant really say if it will change too much against T, thou. Marines and Vikings are just so strong at focussing Prisms down.
Seriously TL community annoys me so much sometimes with their incessant whining. Don't whine about something if you've never even played against it before good lord. I think its pretty good so far to be honest.
i kinda like the change on one hand and on the other i dont, its gonna be hard to stop protoss harass now as any race at least in my theory, are mutas faster than the new warp prism?
On June 20 2013 16:04 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i kinda like the change on one hand and on the other i dont, its gonna be hard to stop protoss harass now as any race at least in my theory, are mutas faster than the new warp prism?
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
If a protoss ever tried doing that to a Terran, it is an instant death...for the Protoss. Just go kill him. The protoss army left at home would be at the very least 60 supply smaller. Lift off your way to victory.
Defending against a warp prism is easier than defending against a speed vac. The warp prism has a smaller capacity than the medivac and must stop, change into warp in mode then warp in units as opposed to just dropping them.
If you are worried about warp ins, just leave a hellbat in base. The zealots will be almost dead by the time they finish warping in.
this will probably pretty much force Terrans to have roving medivacs with Hellbats as base defense in the late game. The only unit that deals with mass zealot warp-in effectively and cost/supply efficiently.
On June 20 2013 16:10 openbox1 wrote: this will probably pretty much force Terrans to have roving medivacs with Hellbats as base defense in the late game. The only unit that deals with mass zealot warp-in effectively and cost/supply efficiently.
I don't get why you guys keep talking about the lategame. I strongly believe this won't affect the lategame at all.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
I'll trade hellbats for warpgate.
Those "trades" just show how much Sc2 is messed up. I'm done playing the game.
Goodbye, maybe quit TL as well instead of whining around. Give it some time, if it breaks the game they'll remove it again. Protoss thought speed medivacs were impossible to deal with when HotS started. Terrans will figure out a way to deal with the new prisms.
so yeah. all this does is make early game warp prism harass stronger, as in the lategame you should have warp prism speed anyways. this is gonna be weird.
Wow this thread, hopefully this might help some of your fears.
For context the warp prism speed is in a similar speed range to these units:
Infestor, Swarm host & no speed roach (on creep) Stalker Banelings (speed) Corruptors Ultralisks Vipers Slowlings
Additionally remember, vikings have 9 range and deal 24 damage per shot to a warp prism thats 8 shots to kill a prism.
Also in phasing mode its immobile so if you found a warp prism in phase mode and set your viking to attack move, the viking would get 3 shots before it's out of range. If you micro'd the viking so after each shot you moved closer to the warp prism you can get as much as 6 shots (that should reduce to 5 shots with the patch). But this is just 1 viking ... 2 vikings should be enough to bring down a warp prism.
It takes 5 seconds for a unit to warp in assuming vikings engaged a warp prism around the time a warp-in happened. 4 vikings would stop the warp in.
Stimmed marines can run faster then a warp prism so they would work out much better for killing a warp prism.
Missile turrets deal 24 damage, so it'd take in total 9 shots from a turret to kill the prism.
So a combination of these three should do quite well at bringing down any warp prisms. Also, when was the last time you saw a terran being pulled apart by speed warp prism drops? This upgrade isnt as good as the speed prism. its sort of a mid ground buff.
Edit: Dont get me wrong it's an intresting change and might add some more potential to the warp prism/protoss harassment. But i really dont see this having too big of an impact.
I don't think this buff is enough for toss. We'll see though. I love that Terrans whining around... YOU HAVE MEDIVACS GUYS. 1 medivac drop kills a nexus in seconds... 2 Hellbat kills all of the probes in seconds... I don't see prism buff will do the same damage... Maybe in late game HT dropps can work from now. Will see!!
On June 20 2013 16:40 Pandemona wrote: Back to turret rings in your base like TvTs to deal with Chargelot harass. Whats the difference in speed between Muta and Warp Prism?
The new warp prism will be the same speed as a corruptor now. Which is considerably slower than a mutalisk (2.9531 < 4.0)
On June 20 2013 07:29 Markwerf wrote: Interesting, this won't be too bad. PvT I still doubt warp prisms will be of any use, the warp prism is not so much the thing, more what you can drop really. Still should boost some drop plays a little, especially things like dt / ht drops. PvZ I worry a little about this, this is really good there for lots of all-ins. Soul train especially and sentry+warp prism tricks near ramp, Parting will know how to abuse this. PvP I like this change the most, warp prism was virtually useless there because of the MsC now we might see some ht drops and that sort of thing.
I agree. People just like to whine lol though I don't really agree with what you said regarding PvZ. Don't really see what difference it would make to all ins and stuff. Isn't the soul train reliant on forcefields anyway, with the warp prism really just cutting the travel distance by a bit? Either way it would hang back in a safe spot so it doesn't get picked off. As for the ramp shenanigans, I kind of agree here but that just means zergs need to be more vigilant of the minimap. New prism speed isn't that much faster. Excited for PvP though I still think the nexus cannon + warp ins (or just warp ins if MSC is with army) will be able to deal with harass pretty well if your army's out of position. We can really only hope though! Won't know what it's really like till we see how the pros use it.
Then again.. I may just be overly secure because I'm terran and have mines and hellbats
I cannot stop smiling at the irony when I see it's mainly Terran players complaining about Protoss getting a dropship with 2.953 speed while their own Medivac has a passive ability that grants it 4.25 speed - MUCH faster - basically whenever you need it most (entry, exit, and/or fleeing from enemy), and has 2.5 movement speed otherwise.
Let's make a deal, your precious Medivac loses the boosters but instead gets 3.0 movement speed all the time, then Protoss will go back to the 2.5 speed Warp Prism. No? Yeah, I thought so.
So funny to see terran complain about fast drops, it's like opposite day today.
Here is what I'll do for ya Terrans, how about we don't get this prism buff and you lose medivac boost? Fair trade I think.
Or why not take this further, lets remove warp prism and medivacs from the game entirely, that was be an amazing trade off for Terrans, right? You can even have medics back.
This isn't going to affect matchups below Masters and Grand Masters. I'm a diamond protoss, and I know for a fact that I don't have the apm to macro and micro a warp prism at the same time. It's still gonna be easy to pick off for most people, you are just going to have to watch for it a bit more often.
I have no idea how this will turn out. I would guess it will be fine in the long run. I just think its a bit strange that this is the n1 change they wanted to do atm. I see plenty of successful use of the warp prism all the time and combined with the ability to use proxy pylons I havent seen any trouble harassing. But perhaps this is directed to a certain match up that I havent seen/played as much.
Prism speed should be interesting. Shouldn't really effect warp ins since the deployment/undeploy time is the key. I'm really hoping to see early HT storm harass...
Not looking forward to this on ladder (my TvP already sucks). Might be fun in tournaments, though. Admittedly I have not tried it out, so it might not be too bad in the end. Still, when you mainly watch GSL and Proleague, you have to wonder why this buff is deemed necessary.
i feel that zergs will have a harder time now vs toss than terran. yes you have to build a bunker in your Mineral line now but the Harass will delay the toss tech as well so you have more time to build a nice effective ball.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
The Vikings might have to make use of their 9 range to shoot down a moving Warp Prism now instead of being able to overtake it for that point-blank shot. The horror!
This feels more like a 'hey protoss, remember you can use warp prisms' buff than anything. Terran's are already spreading their armies really thin in the mid game, counter drops might add some stabillity for protoss and allow them to take a much earlier third. Really though it shouldn't affect much in PvT besides the metagame.
In PvZ on the other hand, it could make a pretty big difference as we've already seen zealot / warp prism micro (to get surrounds on queens) and immortal / warp prism micro (To keep the immortals alive) used to great affect. I don't think it will make a difference below the very, very top levels of play though.
On June 20 2013 17:05 Archybaldie wrote: Actually this would be a better comparison heres a list of the speed of the "Shit that flys in my base and fucks shit up":
Prism in phase mode: 0.0 Medivac: 2.5 Old prism: 2.5 Banshees: 2.75 NEW PRISM: 2.953 Oracle: 3.375 Speed prism: 3.375 Mutalisk: 4.0 Phoenix: 4.25 Medivac (Boosted) : 4.25
Zerg.. "Time for overlord buff now!!" Terran: "I want Warpgates, a viking can't kill a prism now!"
You are stupid. The buff is here for ONE reason. That the game is unbalanced and your races was superior Protoss. So please stop whine. It was this or nerf some of your units. And we still can't lift and leave with more than 4 units. And you will never play against 30 warpgates, and if you play against a 30 warpgate prismdrop, then the Toss would probably upgrade full speed anyways.
I hope and think this buff is enough to make the game balanced again.
Not big change. Faster prism was possible in game anyway, just now its earlier and cheaper(with not a full speed). Viking will always kill prism if protoss decide to warpin. You just need scout as all races. It takes 2 sec to deploy and 5 to warpin. In this time prism cannot move.
Even escaping without upgrade from range of viking will take some time ( 0,2 speed difference). Viking will shoot few times and maybe even finish prism before run. Marines on stim are faster too.
In my opinion benefit is minor. We will see few nice warp prism games in future but i belive they may be executed with or without change ( expecial that the speed buff is there from beggining).
For me that change even could be skipped while 90% of protoss community will not benefit and all other races players will be complaining about protoss buff just because its change.
On June 20 2013 15:11 Gamegene wrote: can we be honest here: does blizzard really think protoss players are going to use this for anything other than cheese?
they gotta be playing a different game.
That's the effect of the WG. The biggest contribution this will have is just make already strong cheese/allin that much harder to stop. I have less of an issue with it in macro games, since if you are attacking the protoss(as in your army is not ready to deal with the prism/warped in units), the toss has to have some balls to actually offensively warp in. Ofcourse in lategame it doesn't really matter, toss should have had speed anyway.
So yeah, one day they will realize how warp gate tech has negatively effected the game. Sadly that day is not today.
Edit: I wonder if Blizzard actually thinks most protoss players are just bigger allin'ers/cheesers compared to terran/zerg...(Gotta play the hand you're given)
Im zerg... this is disgusting. If maybe the REASONS were provided I could force an understanding wave on my brain... but this is silly.... only thing to spoil this LOL game more (which i play religously, sigh) is to add two tanks of Nitrous Oxide (NOS) into the arse of all overloards and give them a boost as well...... yeah this is FULLY balanced now...
On June 20 2013 17:27 vidium wrote: I love terran tears in the morning )
The whining by people on this subject is beyond belief, it actually makes the Reddit and BattelNet forums look good in comparison. People rabbiting on about 30 gateway warpins etc need to get a grip.
I can see the logic in this change, Blizzard are trying to make the game more dynamic and exciting to watch which is important otherwise we could be watching LoL and Dota 2 exclusively in the near future.
The change is minor and basically doesn't affect 99% of the people posting on the subject. Its a Pro level change.
On June 20 2013 16:31 NLWiNtER wrote: I don't think this buff is enough for toss. We'll see though. I love that Terrans whining around... YOU HAVE MEDIVACS GUYS. 1 medivac drop kills a nexus in seconds... 2 Hellbat kills all of the probes in seconds... I don't see prism buff will do the same damage... Maybe in late game HT dropps can work from now. Will see!!
The biggest Problem for me in TvP is that I basically cant do any drops because I am always in that arkward position to change between viking and medivac production. Well maybe I dont understand the late-mid / lategame well enough. But yeah thats the Problem I see personally for myself.
On June 20 2013 13:08 geokilla wrote: Lol all these Bronze noobs.
I dunno if this buff will be good though... In the late game, Protoss is going to be unbeatable now. Smart Protoss will get their death ball going and max said death ball at around 180 supply. Then they can just fly Warp Prisims around and make Zealots or DTs and destroy everything in their path while engaging the main army. But since this is a late game situation, I guess the Warp Prism speed upgrade comes with the same concerns.
Seriously man? You first say that this buff is so huge that it makes Protoss "unbeatable". Then, in the same paragraph, you note that Protoss late game already has warp prism speed (even faster) available to them.
I played with the new change on the map, seems dumb to me. The new prisms feel way too good. I'm not a pro player or anything, but it seems like it's much easier to execute the harass than to deal with it, and it feels better than harass from even turbovacs.
Could be wrong, but I would expect them to tone this down fairly soon.
I think its kind of a bad change but not for the reason most people here are complaining.
I don´t think the "30 zealots lategame in my base" is that big of a problem for 2 reasons: First you barely see that and when you see it you have 9 out of 10 times a uneffective harass where you see 30 zealots trading for 3 depots 2 addons a rax and a handful of marines. second if the Protoss is able and willing to throw away 3K minerals for a mainbase without scv´s you are in trouble anyway so these big massive lategame warpins directly in your base will most likely just beeing a pounding on a dead man walking.
The problem i see is that this doesn´t really fix the Protoss harasment problem but could create new problems:
The "drop/warpgate" harass isn´t bad because the warpprism is bad. It is bad because the "no tech commitment" of protoss just sucks at harassing. 4 zealots or 4 Stalkers are just bad harassment units would the P has Marines or zerglings they would use the Warpprism way more. The buff don´t fix that.
on the other hand it could cause problems with the already strong allin timings. Immortal/Warpprism micro will get stronger, dt drop allins, and especially blink allins (it will be almost impossible to catch the highground vision giving Warpprism).
And it looks like Blizzard has given up on mech TvP. A 2 base 10 Gate with warpprism was before the patch deadly and it will be more "imba" against mech.
So in my opinion this will not have that much of an influence on the "standard" game but could cause problems with allins.
On June 20 2013 16:31 NLWiNtER wrote: I don't think this buff is enough for toss. We'll see though. I love that Terrans whining around... YOU HAVE MEDIVACS GUYS. 1 medivac drop kills a nexus in seconds... 2 Hellbat kills all of the probes in seconds... I don't see prism buff will do the same damage... Maybe in late game HT dropps can work from now. Will see!!
The biggest Problem for me in TvP is that I basically cant do any drops because I am always in that arkward position to change between viking and medivac production. Well maybe I dont understand the late-mid / lategame well enough. But yeah thats the Problem I see personally for myself.
Well in general terms you should scout what your opponent is doing when you push with your first 2 medivacs(and another set building). - If you see colossi you don't engage but rather drop harass(or poke and try to do any kind of dmg without engaging) while producing vikings. Then you can engage like 3 minutes down the line with 8-10 vikings against his like 3-4 colossi. Lategame is just about not being caught offguard by colossi/ht switching. - If it was hts, then you just try to get advantages, be it via engaging and microing your heart out or dropping(or a combination of the two).
On June 20 2013 13:52 thereggin wrote: lol..... as if protoss wasnt annoying already with warp prisms............... this pretty much negates zerg sh play now as we saw in jaedong vs. stardust
yes, a 15% movement speed increase and a 20% acceleration speed increase for the Warp Prism "negates" swarm hosts.
Bravo for capping off your hopelessly stupid post with anecdotal evidence from a single game.
On June 20 2013 17:34 Polnikov wrote: RETAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDED!!!!!!!!!
"THANKS" Which protoss player said that?!!!
Im zerg... this is disgusting. If maybe the REASONS were provided I could force an understanding wave on my brain... but this is silly.... only thing to spoil this LOL game more (which i play religously, sigh) is to add two tanks of Nitrous Oxide (NOS) into the arse of all overloards and give them a boost as well...... yeah this is FULLY balanced now...
why is this shit even allowed on the TL forums at all? seriously the same thread on the SC2 forums has less whining than this one.
and you're just whining. with no reason as to why. And they did provide reasons, dumbass. The reason was Protoss underperforming. Like it did throughout WOL.
Speedy mobile production facilities, nice. This change will probably only have a real impact in Protoss cheese play (as if that was not strong already). Do not play anymore but all I see lately is every change seems to be making things faster, will make tournie games more fun but also makes ladder a more frustrating activity I should imagine.
Surprised how many ppl are losing their shit over this, hows about we play the game for a few weeks and see how this really affects the match ups before going crazy with the whining.
on the other hand it could cause problems with the already strong allin timings. Immortal/Warpprism micro will get stronger, dt drop allins, and especially blink allins (it will be almost impossible to catch the highground vision giving Warpprism).
I wanted to specifically address your all-in comment.
Regarding the sentrys in the main and forcefielding ... i could potentially see that all in increasing.
Blink all-ins you already have the mothership core/observer/hallucination for high ground vision i dont really see the warp prism being used.
Dt drop all-ins i haven't used them or seen them that much to comment.
However the other variations of all ins involving the warp prism (like the immortal sentry all in vs zerg) usually (not always) the warp prism is used as a mobile pylon so lings/etc dont snipe your pylon/probe and delay the push, rather then it being used as a drop/harass unit. So with it being a mobile pylon it's generally positioned with or behind your units.
Now specifically with the immortal sentry all in the timing is you move out with your sentrys/immortals then around the same time you're building the warp prism. The way the timings work it shouldn't have that much of an impact with those types of all-ins just due to the nature of it being a mobile pylon. It could however increase the potential of immortal micro but not really by much, maybe the warp prism gets to the immortal that little bit quicker to pick up.
The 2-2-2 build generally doesn't include a warp prism (some variants do) but its generally used as a mobile pylon there too.
I do however see this including a warp prism for macro/late game styles of play to harass with.
Does anyone else worry about 2x immortal drops sniping stim all the time now? I'm thinking one of those 1gate expo robo builds with prism + 2x immortals (or 1gate robo then expo), but I'm not sure about the timings of that vs stim finishing. IMO it's best way to take advantage of buff (rather then collusus drop) because this buff eliminates the need for robotics support bay. Then go templar into 3rd behind it or something.
I guess instead of switching factory right onto starport for medivacs, make 4 mines for defending around your base?
YEEAHHHHH!!! Unleash the man train!!!! now improved with faster bullet train! hahaha i'm so happy I shall have more zerg QQ! weeeeeeee!!!!! also terrans can have their share of zealot drops! wee!
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Turbovacs, say what?
Can't Medivacs with boost still easily be caught up by Mutas or Phoenix once their boost runs out though? Anyways, eager to see how the other races will adapt to this, since a patch like this will automatically make protoss use warpprisms more.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Turbovacs, say what?
Can't Medivacs with boost still easily be caught up by Mutas or Phoenix once their boost runs out though? Anyways, eager to see how the other races will adapt to this, since a patch like this will automatically make protoss use warpprisms more.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Turbovacs, say what?
Can't Medivacs with boost still easily be caught up by Mutas or Phoenix once their boost runs out though? Anyways, eager to see how the other races will adapt to this, since a patch like this will automatically make protoss use warpprisms more.
I think the comparison between Medivac and Warprism is just stupid. Besides the fact that they can carry units and fly they are completely different units.
You could compare Warpprism and Commandcenter with the same arguments.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Doomdrop from Terran is exactly the same, you're still committing half an army.
A 10 supply drop from Terran is still more dangerous than a 4 Zealot Prism warp-in (also 10 supply).
Not in the midgame. Protoss can camp behind nexus cannons, so every unit is necessary. I leave my base --> you warp in. So I need to keep some stuff home = weaker push = bigger chance that the games goes into lategame.
Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
In my eyes this is a very good decision because it allows protoss to play faster and more flexible and we might stop seeing so much passive play. Early WP harrass should be fun to watch.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Turbovacs, say what?
Can't Medivacs with boost still easily be caught up by Mutas or Phoenix once their boost runs out though? Anyways, eager to see how the other races will adapt to this, since a patch like this will automatically make protoss use warpprisms more.
I think the comparison between Medivac and Warprism is just stupid. Besides the fact that they can carry units and fly they are completely different units.
You could compare Warpprism and Commandcenter with the same arguments.
They both have their unique features (healing and serving as a pylon) but they also have something in common, dropping units to harras. Agree that it a comparison is kinda silly though as the prism and medivac are only 1 unit of the like 20 units both races have and to make a good comparison you would need to compare the 2 races as a whole wich is near impossible for us silver players.
If we compare the warp prism 4 zealot drop with the command centre 10 suv (steel frame upgrade) drop into planetary fortress then i think the prism drop is easier top execute while the comm centre 10 suv drop into pf heavily depends on your opponent making mistakes.
Still...the only application I can possible see with this buff is the improvement of already potent Protoss all-ins. Warp prism speed is not a big investment in a macro game...I can't quite wrap my head around why Blizzard thought it was a good idea to buff the prism. Medivac speed is bad enough.
I think that this will simply force people to be more careful with their static defense. Honestly, this can't be that much worse than Terran (Hellbat) drops. Good map vision, etc.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Turbovacs, say what?
And the moment I can rally my barracks through a medivac, I will admit, that you have a point!
On June 20 2013 19:23 Incognoto wrote: I think that this will simply force people to be more careful with their static defense. Honestly, this can't be that much worse than Terran (Hellbat) drops. Good map vision, etc.
And we totally forget, that Protoss and Zerg have much better tools (MSC, blink stalker, cannons on the protoss side/ queens, spinecrawler, much faster basic speed on units on the zerg side) to defend drop harass than terran, do we?
I am honestly not a fan of any speed buffs in SC2 at all. The game is already insanely fast - at the very least it is already in almost every aspect much faster than BW; it only isn't so painfully aparent, because things are easier to do. Thus, the last thing it needs is stuff flying around even faster. Obviously, making one thing faster is much easier than making everything that can shoot it down a little slower, because the latter approach leads inevitably to a cascade of consequences - but who says that the easy things are necessarily the good ones?
On June 20 2013 19:17 DrBeansy wrote: is no-one commenting in ZvP.... corruptors are terrible enough as it is. pretty worried about how strong WP buff could be in ZvP
You have the best static defense in the game. You should be fine. ^^
1. It's not even that big of a buff....some people dare call it the "new permanent speedvacs" now.. lol their new speed still comes NOTHING close to speedvac speed
2. The amount of whining in this thread is horrendous, and most are coming from T players instead of Z. Why? Z has a much harder time blocking warp prism...T's have a tier 1 unit that can kill Warp Prism, lings and queens can't really. Is this re-inforcing my beliefs that T players are more balance-whiny and super stubborn in general? There's literally like 1 zerg player complaining for every 10 terran players complaining on this thread..
3. Protoss has been suffering at the very top...and THAT's where balance needs to be fixed for, not for masters or the like.
This buff is not that big people, and it is definitely warranted. If you want balance whine, please do it for next month when hellbats, speedvacs, widow mines, marines all get nerfed at the same time.
So many people complaining about the late game, but that isn't going to be some new problem, since they have speed prisms already by then usually. However, I am certainly not looking forward to facing it in the early game, will just add another annoying all in off 1 or 2 base to protoss' endless arsenal. We shall see.
The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
A terran drop can dash into your base, kill all of your workers (stim marines/hellbats) or key structures (marauders) in a matter of seconds even in the presence of defense structures/units and escape without any losses. It is this entire combination that makes drops powerful, a little speed will do nothing for Protoss macro games but spare them 200/200.
On June 20 2013 19:35 GhostOwl wrote: 1. It's not even that big of a buff....some people dare call it the "new permanent speedvacs" now.. lol their new speed still comes NOTHING close to speedvac speed
2. The amount of whining in this thread is horrendous, and most are coming from T players instead of Z. Why? Z has a much harder time blocking warp prism...T's have a tier 1 unit that can kill Warp Prism, lings and queens can't really. Is this re-inforcing my beliefs that T players are more balance-whiny and super stubborn in general? There's literally like 1 zerg player complaining for every 10 terran players complaining on this thread..
3. Protoss has been suffering at the very top...and THAT's where balance needs to be fixed for, not for masters or the like.
This buff is not that big people, and it is definitely warranted. If you want balance whine, please do it for next month when hellbats, speedvacs, widow mines, marines all get nerfed at the same time.
1: It's totally unnessecary, since Warp Prisms are strong enough right now.
2: when was the last time you saw a marine kill a warp prism? I can't remember seeing it.
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
A terran drop can dash into your base, kill all of your workers (stim marines/hellbats) or key structures (marauders) in a matter of seconds even in the presence of defense structures/units and escape without any losses. It is this entire combination that makes drops powerful, a little speed will do nothing for Protoss macro games but spare them 200/200.
Yep, I just see it being used in more all-ins. As if they don't have enough of those already
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
Or saturating Terran's attention, which is easy since it's the most demanding race in this domain? There's a reason you see even Code S Terrans losing entire mineral lines or even OCs to Zealots raids in autopilot.
And we totally forget, that Protoss and Zerg have much better tools (MSC, blink stalker, cannons on the protoss side/ queens, spinecrawler, much faster basic speed on units on the zerg side) to defend drop harass than terran, do we?
Huh? Turrets are by far the best anti-air static defence in the game.
Or consider where Protoss has to leave say 4 stalkers in his base (often more) in case of Terran drops. 4 stalkers is like the cost-equivalent of 16 marines.
Plus remember that until charge, zealots are slow and melee - scvs can run away. Compared to the stimmed range/speed of marines. Even with charge, each zealot can only get one hit off on an SCV if they're running away...
In any case, race A != B != C as mentioned several times in the thread.
In general this thread is pretty unbelievably in the amount of whining over a what, a 0.4 speed increase on a non-combat unit? It's a nice little buff for Protoss, and when the alternative is making combat units stronger/faster, the overreaction (mostly from Terrans for some reason?) is astonishing.
I do not think most Terrans will be whining from a balance point of view tbh, its more a design issue. Basically warp tech is getting even stronger and I don't care how balanced match ups are at pro level, warp tech is broken as fuck and should play no part in an RTS. Making the mobility of instant upon purchase Protoss unit production even stronger is a kick in the nuts for the many who hate this part of sc2.
Happy this is going through for 2 reasons: - It gives a potent way to harass later on in the game (and I fuckin love warp prisms!) - Toss won't bitch about speedvacs anymore.
I think a unit should have been buffed. Like a ground unit or something. not WP. But whatever. I dont really like the change because it doesnt help with much. The only reason I would get a warp prism at a decently early time in the game is to all in. So it doesnt really affect me too much, and it does make Allins a bit stronger but overall I would much rather have an actual unit buffed, no idea what unit being buffed wouldnt break the game, though.
Comments should be neglected in these kind of topics. Would spare the moderators for an hours work, and everybody will save time instead of reading through the weep, whine and silly arguments.
On June 20 2013 19:58 Maasked wrote: I think a unit should have been buffed. Like a ground unit or something. not WP. But whatever. I dont really like the change because it doesnt help with much. the only reason to get a WP earlygame is to allin with how I play.
It might be possible to get a 3rd off a warp prism now <3
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
Or saturating Terran's attention, which is easy since it's the most demanding race in this domain? There's a reason you see even Code S Terrans losing entire mineral lines or even OCs to Zealots raids in autopilot.
This is the correct answer. Even at lower levels you can do this to devastating effect: Park an Observer where you can see their army move out. They move, you drop a couple Zealots in their main and warp a few more at another base, then you just ignore the Zealots. The issue isn't that they "don't have the presence of mind to respond", it's that their units are out of position due to their attack, and they either have to delay their attack to deal with the drop, ignore it, or attempt to both attack and defend at the same time, which requires vastly more skill than it takes to do the drop.
The argument that this upgrade is going to result in a big upswing in all-ins doesn't make any sense to me. The only all-in that would be impacted at all is the one where you drop a Sentry at the top of a ramp and then clear out a Zerg's main, which is a huge coin-flip that relies on the Zerg being out of position and not noticing what's happening. I don't see that becoming significantly more common at a high level. Other all-ins that incorporate a WP use it to reinforce, in which case it's generally kept back from the main fight to avoid being sniped, and its speed isn't an issue at all.
One thing that I think hasn't been addressed is that this is an interesting buff to HT play, since keeping HTs in a WP before you get speed out is now a lot more useful than it was when the WP was slower.
On June 20 2013 19:58 Maasked wrote: I think a unit should have been buffed. Like a ground unit or something. not WP. But whatever. I dont really like the change because it doesnt help with much. the only reason to get a WP earlygame is to allin with how I play.
It might be possible to get a 3rd off a warp prism now <3
Edit: just in case sarcasm inside.
Actually that could have been a serious remark. If you're good with your micro, 2 stalkers + warpprism kill an infinite amount of non-stim marines now, and you can also harass with it :p
On June 20 2013 19:58 Maasked wrote: I think a unit should have been buffed. Like a ground unit or something. not WP. But whatever. I dont really like the change because it doesnt help with much. the only reason to get a WP earlygame is to allin with how I play.
It might be possible to get a 3rd off a warp prism now <3
Edit: just in case sarcasm inside.
Actually that could have been a serious remark. If you're good with your micro, 2 stalkers + warpprism kill an infinite amount of non-stim marines now, and you can also harass with it :p
On June 20 2013 19:17 DrBeansy wrote: is no-one commenting in ZvP.... corruptors are terrible enough as it is. pretty worried about how strong WP buff could be in ZvP
You have the best static defense in the game. You should be fine. ^^
On June 20 2013 19:17 DrBeansy wrote: is no-one commenting in ZvP.... corruptors are terrible enough as it is. pretty worried about how strong WP buff could be in ZvP
You have the best static defense in the game. You should be fine. ^^
he said ZvP. not TvP ;-)
Zerg static defense is by far the best. They have one that hits air and one that does good damage to ground and they're moveable.
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
Or saturating Terran's attention, which is easy since it's the most demanding race in this domain? There's a reason you see even Code S Terrans losing entire mineral lines or even OCs to Zealots raids in autopilot.
The plight of the terran. The sorrow we feel for their saturated attention and inability to save the workers from non-aoe based melee units.
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
Or saturating Terran's attention, which is easy since it's the most demanding race in this domain? There's a reason you see even Code S Terrans losing entire mineral lines or even OCs to Zealots raids in autopilot.
The plight of the terran. The sorrow we feel for their saturated attention and inability to save the workers from non-aoe based melee units.
Your cheap irony changes nothing to the truth ot the statement.
2: when was the last time you saw a marine kill a warp prism? I can't remember seeing it.
one minute ago, sOs vs Maru
Keeping your Warp Prism idle in Phase Mode in your opponent's base certainly helps Marines to kill it.
The protoss's attention was saturated with controlling observers and searching for hellbat drops. The race is so demanding that one cannot expect him to control everything perfectly.
On June 20 2013 19:17 DrBeansy wrote: is no-one commenting in ZvP.... corruptors are terrible enough as it is. pretty worried about how strong WP buff could be in ZvP
You have the best static defense in the game. You should be fine. ^^
he said ZvP. not TvP ;-)
Zerg static defense is by far the best. They have one that hits air and one that does good damage to ground and they're moveable.
On June 20 2013 20:07 Douillos wrote: sOs vs Maru Warp prism harass mid game <3 can't wait for the buff
And still losing easily.
Predicting here that a 17%-ish speed boost to a non-combat unit, of which there is usually about one on the field, will amount to nothing. Would be nice to be wrong.
On June 20 2013 20:07 Douillos wrote: sOs vs Maru Warp prism harass mid game <3 can't wait for the buff
And still losing easily.
Predicting here that a 17%-ish speed boost to a non-combat unit, of which there is usually about one on the field, will amount to nothing. Would be nice to be wrong.
Or the end of the terran race, depending on which side of this thread you fall on. Its hard to tell right now.
SoS vs maru pretty much demonstrates how this isn't really going to affect anything. SoS lost because he invested units into harassing Maru's main, which did almost nothing, instead of making units to defend his 3rd base against the inevitable 14 min push. He didn't have enough units to defend the third because of the lackluster harass. After he lost the 3rd it was basically over he wasn't going to be able to match terrans production and maru ran him over a little later. Making the harass a little faster isn't going to change the fact that it can be cleaned up by rallied marine/marauders.
On June 20 2013 19:17 DrBeansy wrote: is no-one commenting in ZvP.... corruptors are terrible enough as it is. pretty worried about how strong WP buff could be in ZvP
You have the best static defense in the game. You should be fine. ^^
he said ZvP. not TvP ;-)
Zerg static defense is by far the best. They have one that hits air and one that does good damage to ground and they're moveable.
turret> spore PF > 5spines
edit: all of that pre hisec and building armor
well depends on mu. against f.e. vipers with blinding cloud, 5 spines are clearly more worth than 1 pf... and pf costs gas to, so 5 spines > 1 PF imo...
On June 20 2013 20:22 Jaded. wrote: SoS vs maru pretty much demonstrates how this isn't really going to affect anything. SoS lost because he invested units into harassing Maru's main, which did almost nothing, instead of making units to defend his 3rd base against the inevitable 14 min push. He didn't have enough units to defend the third because of the lackluster harass. After he lost the 3rd it was basically over he wasn't going to be able to match terrans production and maru ran him over a little later. Making the harass a little faster isn't going to change the fact that it can be cleaned up by rallied marine/marauders.
Remove warpgate, buff gateway units, that is all.
He lost because he was thrown off balance after Maru sniped his third since his army was out of position, which is what happens when you have zero unit or Pylon parked somewhere in the way leading to your third to tell you in advance your opponent's army is there (Observers aren't the only way to keep track of your opponent's army movements...). The Zealots raids were a huge pain for Maru and he had to leave units at home or come back several times to deal with those.
On June 20 2013 20:22 Jaded. wrote: SoS vs maru pretty much demonstrates how this isn't really going to affect anything. SoS lost because he invested units into harassing Maru's main, which did almost nothing, instead of making units to defend his 3rd base against the inevitable 14 min push. He didn't have enough units to defend the third because of the lackluster harass. After he lost the 3rd it was basically over he wasn't going to be able to match terrans production and maru ran him over a little later. Making the harass a little faster isn't going to change the fact that it can be cleaned up by rallied marine/marauders.
Remove warpgate, buff gateway units, that is all.
He lost because he was thrown off balance after Maru sniped his third since his army was out of position, which is what happens when you have zero unit or Pylon parked somewhere in the way leading to your third to tell you in advance your opponent's army is there (Observers aren't the only way to keep track of your opponent's army movements...). The Zealots raids were a huge pain for Maru and he had to leave units at home or come back several times to deal with those.
My point is that he lost his third because he didn't have the units spent on doing no economic damage at home. SoS was seemed to be planning on his warprism actually pinning his enemy in his base when really it was just cleaned up with a small amount of units while Maru's army walked across and destroyed his third. Even if SoS WAS in position he couldn't have taken Maru's army on with the small one he had.
On June 20 2013 20:23 KOtical wrote: the sad thing is as a terran player i dont have anything that can catch up with the speed prism...
Really heart touching story.
He is right, protoss have phoenix, which can catch the medivacs. And you only need to spend +500 gas to get them...which is the same price as your first colossi.
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
Or saturating Terran's attention, which is easy since it's the most demanding race in this domain? There's a reason you see even Code S Terrans losing entire mineral lines or even OCs to Zealots raids in autopilot.
The plight of the terran. The sorrow we feel for their saturated attention and inability to save the workers from non-aoe based melee units.
Your cheap irony changes nothing to the truth ot the statement.
The only ironic thing here is Terrans with speedvacs moaning against speed prisms.
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
Or saturating Terran's attention, which is easy since it's the most demanding race in this domain? There's a reason you see even Code S Terrans losing entire mineral lines or even OCs to Zealots raids in autopilot.
The plight of the terran. The sorrow we feel for their saturated attention and inability to save the workers from non-aoe based melee units.
Your cheap irony changes nothing to the truth ot the statement.
The only ironic thing here is Terrans with speedvacs moaning against speed prisms.
u cant compare a constant speed upgrade with the ability that medivacs have. even stimmed marines are slower than the new warp prism... ok gimme marine blink to deal with it and im fine...
Everybody knows that protoss is relly good early midgame now. With nexus cannon and allins, witch is better then playing lategame. So why this change of all changes they can do? All this is gonna do is add some other awdomeness to allins. "now we have mother core and speed prism" wtf?
On June 20 2013 20:23 KOtical wrote: the sad thing is as a terran player i dont have anything that can catch up with the speed prism...
Really heart touching story.
He is right, protoss have phoenix, which can catch the medivacs. And you only need to spend +500 gas to get them...which is the same price as your first colossi.
Wait...
You need like 4 Phoenix to kill the medivac in any reasonable amount of time, too.
On June 20 2013 20:23 KOtical wrote: the sad thing is as a terran player i dont have anything that can catch up with the speed prism...
Really heart touching story.
He is right, protoss have phoenix, which can catch the medivacs. And you only need to spend +500 gas to get them...which is the same price as your first colossi.
Wait...
Whoo needs colossi if you have the ability to hunt medivacs down right? :D
On June 20 2013 19:37 Velocirapture wrote: The problem with protoss drops, in my experience, is that they have to be all-in unless you are WAY ahead. Protoss gateway units are terrible at killing buildings and even worse at killing workers so what is your drop doing in their base? Hoping they don't have the presence of mind to respond?
Or saturating Terran's attention, which is easy since it's the most demanding race in this domain? There's a reason you see even Code S Terrans losing entire mineral lines or even OCs to Zealots raids in autopilot.
The plight of the terran. The sorrow we feel for their saturated attention and inability to save the workers from non-aoe based melee units.
Your cheap irony changes nothing to the truth ot the statement.
The only ironic thing here is Terrans with speedvacs moaning against speed prisms.
u cant compare a constant speed upgrade with the ability that medivacs have. even stimmed marines are slower than the new warp prism... ok gimme marine blink to deal with it and im fine...
No need for colossi, terrans up to high masters randomly load up their whole army all the time anyway. Your strategy should revolve around having 20 hidden phoenixes in your base and mass observers to spot their inevitable brainfart, kill all the medivacs and then attack move all your observers to his base and win
On June 20 2013 20:23 KOtical wrote: the sad thing is as a terran player i dont have anything that can catch up with the speed prism...
If you don't make (stimmed) marines as a Terran, you're doing it wrong.
Also, I hear that phase mode for the warp prism is pretty slow (speed of... 0).
And isn't medivac boost faster than warp prism?
Shhhhhhhhhhh don't talk about the "medivac", its not polite to point out the unit that is flat out better than the one they are complaining about.
First of all, medivac costs gas and only have 150 HP, which is not the case of the warp prism
Second thing is, terran is supposed to be strong in the mid-game, this is what DK said, since its lategame is nothing compared to protoss' lategame. A terran reaching the late game without an advantage in pop or eco will just lose to the protoss player.
Giving protoss a unit with a very high mid-game potential is very dangerous. Time will tell
On June 20 2013 20:23 KOtical wrote: the sad thing is as a terran player i dont have anything that can catch up with the speed prism...
If you don't make (stimmed) marines as a Terran, you're doing it wrong.
Also, I hear that phase mode for the warp prism is pretty slow (speed of... 0).
And isn't medivac boost faster than warp prism?
Shhhhhhhhhhh don't talk about the "medivac", its not polite to point out the unit that is flat out better than the one they are complaining about.
First of all, medivac costs gas and only have 150 HP, which is not the case of the warp prism
Second thing is, terran is supposed to be strong in the mid-game, this is what DK said, since its lategame is nothing compared to protoss' lategame. A terran reaching the late game without an advantage in pop or eco will just lose to the protoss player.
Giving protoss a unit with a very high mid-game potential is very dangerous. Time will tell
1) Terran lategame beats protoss lategame. Ghost Viking beats everything protoss. 2) Terran doesn't go out of their way to build a medivac and the bio units it drops. Protoss does go out of their way to build a warp prism and the dropped units.
On June 20 2013 20:43 TheMooseHeed wrote: So in pvp will 2 immortal drops be the norm now?
I doubt it considering how strong stargate already is but it most likely will find a niche again, which is cool. Speed prism immortal drops were super cool to watch and play.
On June 20 2013 20:23 KOtical wrote: the sad thing is as a terran player i dont have anything that can catch up with the speed prism...
If you don't make (stimmed) marines as a Terran, you're doing it wrong.
Also, I hear that phase mode for the warp prism is pretty slow (speed of... 0).
And isn't medivac boost faster than warp prism?
Shhhhhhhhhhh don't talk about the "medivac", its not polite to point out the unit that is flat out better than the one they are complaining about.
First of all, medivac costs gas and only have 150 HP, which is not the case of the warp prism
Second thing is, terran is supposed to be strong in the mid-game, this is what DK said, since its lategame is nothing compared to protoss' lategame. A terran reaching the late game without an advantage in pop or eco will just lose to the protoss player.
Giving protoss a unit with a very high mid-game potential is very dangerous. Time will tell
1) Terran lategame beats protoss lategame. Ghost Viking beats everything protoss. 2) Terran doesn't go out of their way to build a medivac and the bio units it drops. Protoss does go out of their way to build a warp prism and the dropped units.
Ghost viking and a few hellbats is now the real fucker to deal with ^^
On June 20 2013 20:23 KOtical wrote: the sad thing is as a terran player i dont have anything that can catch up with the speed prism...
If you don't make (stimmed) marines as a Terran, you're doing it wrong.
Also, I hear that phase mode for the warp prism is pretty slow (speed of... 0).
And isn't medivac boost faster than warp prism?
Shhhhhhhhhhh don't talk about the "medivac", its not polite to point out the unit that is flat out better than the one they are complaining about.
First of all, medivac costs gas and only have 150 HP, which is not the case of the warp prism
Second thing is, terran is supposed to be strong in the mid-game, this is what DK said, since its lategame is nothing compared to protoss' lategame. A terran reaching the late game without an advantage in pop or eco will just lose to the protoss player.
Giving protoss a unit with a very high mid-game potential is very dangerous. Time will tell
1. So what if medivacs cost gas? Protoss is far more gas-intensive than Terran. What else are Terrans going to use all that gas on? Marines? Hellbats? lol. Besides, medivacs have their own perks (healing, speed, etc.); simply looking at the resource cost is not enough to generalize and say X is better than Y.
2. Regardless of whether or not this is true (and for the record, I don't think the late game is as lopsided as you're implying), this is not an argument for speed prisms being overpowered. Checking the minimap and leaving a few turrets or marines at home are pretty good ideas... kind of like how Protoss players need to drop cannons and keep high templar at home (which cost gas omg).
the people who think this is somehow equivalent to medivac boost are insane. let me warp in marines and marauders and we'll call it even. this is going to be the most annoying thing in the universe in late game and will probably kill any chance of mech working in the matchup
On June 20 2013 20:56 buckKeefe wrote: the people who think this is somehow equivalent to medivac boost are insane. let me warp in marines and marauders and we'll call it even. this is going to be the most annoying thing in the universe in late game and will probably kill any chance of mech working in the matchup
The buff is not "Turrets don't hurt warprisms anymore".
On June 20 2013 20:56 buckKeefe wrote: the people who think this is somehow equivalent to medivac boost are insane. let me warp in marines and marauders and we'll call it even. this is going to be the most annoying thing in the universe in late game and will probably kill any chance of mech working in the matchup
Protoss players already use upgraded WP in late game. Nothing will change in that regard.
Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
On June 20 2013 20:56 buckKeefe wrote: the people who think this is somehow equivalent to medivac boost are insane. let me warp in marines and marauders and we'll call it even. this is going to be the most annoying thing in the universe in late game and will probably kill any chance of mech working in the matchup
The lategame reasoning is just stupid. You could just get the speed upgrade before this patch, you can get it after the patch, it's still the same. And if you're planning to do some heavy dropping action, everyone got it before anyway.
Do you have another reason on how this will break the game?
On June 20 2013 20:56 buckKeefe wrote: the people who think this is somehow equivalent to medivac boost are insane. let me warp in marines and marauders and we'll call it even. this is going to be the most annoying thing in the universe in late game and will probably kill any chance of mech working in the matchup
Except..
1) Turbovacs vastly outrun Warp Prism
2) You will have a TON of medivacs when the game progresses because they're part of the natural unit mix, so instead of warping it 10 P units at a time, you can drop 30+ Terran units at once. AND it heals.
On June 20 2013 21:03 DarkLordOlli wrote: Every terran who says this will cause them trouble in the lategame has no idea how this game works and has absolutely nothing to say about balance.
but... but... but... other race gets buffed! NEED TO WHINE!
sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
not to mention that this is functionally equivalent to getting the speed upgrade for free -- even though the numbers are a bit lower than outright giving it the upgrade, it doesnt make a critical difference bc its now faster than the units id use to kill it anyway.
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
Should it be free? Toss and Zerg also have to invest something to be somewhat safe against those allmighty terran drops.
Seems like they just made the warp prism on par with speed medivacs and terrans seem to be crying about it. Give it a month and see if it breaks the game or not. As a pure spectator of the game now, I can't wait to see the pros use it. It will either mean less all ins and more harass or easier all ins xD
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
Should it be free? Toss and Zerg also have to invest something to be somewhat safe against those allmighty terran drops.
no, not free, but the cost on some maps is really substantial when you consider the surface area (belshir past 3 base for instance). i agree that zerg has to spend some on static d, although you can put spines in the important places rather than spores in every possible drop path. protoss on the other hand? msc cannon+keep a little supply open for warp ins, nbd. add an ht if youre really worried. if my units arent in position and you dont suicide into a turret, mass zealots are gonna do work; if your units arent in position you instantly create some and overcharge the nexus. not to mention that your static d can, yknow, shoot shit on the ground.
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
Right, because buffing overlords is the same thing as buffing warp prisms. What. the. fuck. is wrong with you? I could just as easily complain that my pylons can't fly and drop units, but I'm not as stupid as you and can tell the difference between apples and oranges.
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
Should it be free? Toss and Zerg also have to invest something to be somewhat safe against those allmighty terran drops.
no, not free, but the cost on some maps is really substantial when you consider the surface area (belshir past 3 base for instance). i agree that zerg has to spend some on static d, although you can put spines in the important places rather than spores in every possible drop path. protoss on the other hand? msc cannon+keep a little supply open for warp ins, nbd. add an ht if youre really worried. if my units arent in position and you dont suicide into a turret, mass zealots are gonna do work; if your units arent in position you instantly create some and overcharge the nexus. not to mention that your static d can, yknow, shoot shit on the ground.
Ok, let's talk about the 3+ base situation. If you don't feel comfortable against drops, why dont you just build a PF on your 3rd? And since you know that it's kinda common to leave a HT and like 2 zealots on every singe base, why don't you just leave some units at your bases?
And i've never seen a zealot drop in a pro game which did HUGE amounts of damage (like a mm/hellbat drop per ex.). You can just runaway with your scv's, you might lose a depot here and there, maybe some addons, but other than that...
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it?
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
If the units get changed so no unit appears to be more powerful than others, what are we left with?
We players should try to play the game given to us instead of wanting a change of the ruleset.
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
they should remove or nerf some allin harass from protoss this is pretty dumb the outrageous nimber of stupid easy to execute allin there is for P in PvT . this WP buff is good very good but should be balanced by a nerf of silly turbo dt or oracles
On June 20 2013 22:09 SSVnormandy wrote: they should remove or nerf some allin harass from protoss this is pretty dumb the outrageous nimber of stupid easy to execute allin there is for P in PvT . this WP buff is good very good but should be balanced by a nerf of silly turbo dt or oracles
Lol, this has nothing to do with oracles? In case of DTs, same thing still applies. Scout, prepare, shut down, win.
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
I'd say they kinda are, no? You pay 50 minerals for a little marine who does little damage alone, you pay alot more for a mighty collosus.
If a unit isn't cost effective at all, what's the point of even producing it?
I guess that's also a major problem with the hellbat, it does way too much for it's cost.
On June 20 2013 22:09 SSVnormandy wrote: they should remove or nerf some allin harass from protoss this is pretty dumb the outrageous nimber of stupid easy to execute allin there is for P in PvT . this WP buff is good very good but should be balanced by a nerf of silly turbo dt or oracles
Lol, this has nothing to do with oracles? In case of DTs, same thing still applies. Scout, prepare, shut down, win.
Also what on earth is "allin harass"
Something that lets them fly into his base and kill his stuff? There are points when I think the post can be boiled down to "My opponent was Protoss! WHY!?"
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
I'd say they kinda are, no? You pay 50 minerals for a little marine who does little damage alone, you pay alot more for a mighty collosus.
If a unit isn't cost effective at all, what's the point of even producing it?
I guess that's also a major problem with the hellbat, it does way too much for it's cost.
Agree with you about the cost effectiveness though its not the only thing to consider. The unit also has to be suply effective, specially in the late game when cost is less of an isue, and i do agree cost effectiveness and suply effectivness should be about equall for all units (else people would not make them indeed) Maybe thats a reason why i see so little thors in pro games.
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
I'm sure if you've been around here very long you've heard about how BW was the most balanced game of all time. The game was balanced the units however were not. There's a reason why building scouts was an insult.
So, for all the people saying this change is probably not going to be big, I would say that even small changes to this game have HUGE ramifications. See Queen buff, bunker/barracks nerfs, changes made to blue flame, forge buffs etc. Every time a small change is made, it opens up new strategies and completely kills old ones. This will be no diffferent for this WP buff..the problem in TvP being that many of Terran strategies have already been killed off with heart of the swarm, and leaving us with surprisingly few timings to harass or attack, and most of those are substantially less threatening than before and carry much higher risk. Planetary Nexus/MSC has basically given protoss a ton more early options and set them up to have higher tech and safer "greedy" play to allow harass later. I don't feel like we have seen a lack of harassment from Protoss since Heart of the Swarm.
There is a heavy burden to stop the other races from getting a high tech army that we can't deal with cost effectively. Sure you can kill an army ..but then going on to kill a base or 2 before an instant remax or losing 50 supply to a stray storm or zealot warp in? Not so much. Heavy Mineral based units make up terrans army, whereas mineral units are mostly shields for high tech units of the other races, while also being extremely cost effective harass/trade units late game. zealot warp ins with upgrades require a larger amount of terran supply to deal with late game than can't usually be afforded to remove from the main battle, as well as a substantial amount of micro. (this is what DWF is getting at with the attention saturation point). I don't think that the warp prism late game is going to be that different, but it will certainly severely weaken any kind of chance to get an almost required edge in the midgame, and setup an economy that allows for cost effective trades which is already harder to do in Hots. Its become a risk to move your army out before you have medivacs and stim in the early game now in TvP..is the 2 medivac timing going to follow the same road? Are we headed for WoL TvZ type games?
At the same time, this is going to make all ins and some other heavy harass so much better. Immortal gateway all ins are going to be very difficult to deal with. There will no doubt be faster 4 gate WP type attacks making fast expands even less safe. I am particularly scared of DT builds. They already come at a time where terran is extremely mineral starved to afford those 2 turrets and if you were trying to do some kind of tech in response to it and mis micro you can actually just lose your few marines and instantly die..or if you aren't completely in position or know its coming you can lose enough scvs that the game is already over anyway. It is already a very good build and has very few drawbacks, but now it will come probably 10-15 seconds earlier?
As much terran concern as there is in this thread.. I actually think this is going to be even worse for zerg. I don't know enough about ZvP to write about it, but I've seen zealot warp ins or warp prism based all ins be so devastating already..faster timing and easier ways to get a proxy pylon up is going to make the matchup even more all in/timing focused.
I think it would be a little more fair to implement this buff if they at least brought back the original health of the warp prism. Remember when warp prisms were actually able to die from queens or a few marines/vikings? Like medivacs, WP now has the abiltiy to skirt around static D and units to get in position, so there is no reason why it needs to have buffed health as well. They should also look at nexus cannon because it doesnt promote any type of skill..it doesnt cost anything, and lasts very long for how powerful it is...but thats for another discussion.
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it?
...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it?
...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
The nick name for the WP before the 60 shield buff was "The paper plane". I remember watching Nony trying to do immortal drops back then and the WP was being chased off by 2 marines. Or MC losing 4 high templar because a couple vikings looked at the WP for half a second.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
and you only need 1,7k/1,7k so 15 mutas to get some harrass done. oh and you cant support that if you go roach hydra or SH or infestor which means we dont have harrass capability with other comps than ling bane muta where all 3 units are able to harrass. nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement could need some love. doesnt have to be big buffs but some small ones like faster unload of nydus or faster ovis which move at HT speed could be very useful and make for more fun games with more multitasking for both sides.
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
What he should have said is "Same cost efficiency given the same amount of investment". Clearly high tier units tend to be more cost efficient (else why would I even make them?). at 100 minerals there is nothing that, in general situations, come close to the hellbat. It stomps lings, trades effectively with banelings, barely loses to roaches (75/25, so one could say that a roach is worth more). we can see that it is already a good ground unit but the problem comes when you put these pesky guys into a medivac. They are guaranteed to do damage even if the opponent responds almost instantly ( don't try to tell me "pull away the workers" because you can just boost and catch some. Not even two spores stop you from boosting, leaving hellbats, and going away.)
On June 20 2013 22:11 DarkLordOlli wrote: Also what on earth is "allin harass"
An example of allin harass would be for instance if really like your secretary and are very good at breast massage, so you call her to your office and start fondling her boob.
It's technically harass, but you're "allinning" on her liking it so that you and her can start a life together instead of you starting a life together with some random cellmate in prison.
Finally, I can understand some of the things Idra said about SC2 designers... Seems like they cared about feedback from gold level players and now want to make the game more retard friendly. This change is so ridiculous...
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it?
...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
Of course you get attention by buffing a unit. EVERY buff works like that, so the first warp prism buff was surely NOT a prime example. It was just a regular -needed- buff.
btw it's also: stronger unit --> more use more attention --> more use So by measuring the usage, we can't say whether it was mostly a promotion or a buff. However by checking what the buff did (+30% hitpoints!!!!!), we can clearly see that it was first and foremost the first kind of stuff.
The prime example for a buff promoting something would be the Protoss upgrade buff, which was unsignificant (something like 200 resources cheaper over a duration of 15-20mins) and being done after Creator (and Genius) destroyed Terrans with double forges. It was basically like blizzard saying "hey protoss, we know you have bad winrates right now. But there is this strategy out there that you really should try because it seems to work fantastically."
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Yeah, we've never seen a Zerg player going muta win a game, right? Or what exactly are you trying to say?
On June 20 2013 20:56 buckKeefe wrote: the people who think this is somehow equivalent to medivac boost are insane. let me warp in marines and marauders and we'll call it even. this is going to be the most annoying thing in the universe in late game and will probably kill any chance of mech working in the matchup
dude... even better upgrade is available much earlier than your precious mech will get massed for only 100/100. now, stop crying like a baby for a 0.4 speed buff.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Get ovie speed and drops. Boom now all your houses are drop ships... Idk how anything becomes more efficient for doom drops. When I played kawaii on the ladder when he was playing Zerg at the beginnings hots his ling drops were a nightmare
As for the warp prism buff, meh. Did they completely take out the speed upgrade and just make it free or is warp prism even faster than it was pre patch after the upgrade?
10 zealots in ur production when ur out of position can really do enough damage to end the game
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore.
A good Zerg doesn't get crushed by a "mothercore".
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore.
Yeah, but the style where they kinda go muta with the thread of switching to roaches at any moment is terrifying. You scout a spire after some early roaches, but don't know if you should invest in stargate units or keep up with your ground army. And even if you figure it out, the zerg can still go muta at any time.
So going straight muta is bad, but tech switches are still awesome, if not more so.
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
What he should have said is "Same cost efficiency given the same amount of investment". Clearly high tier units tend to be more cost efficient (else why would I even make them?). at 100 minerals there is nothing that, in general situations, come close to the hellbat. It stomps lings, trades effectively with banelings, barely loses to roaches (75/25, so one could say that a roach is worth more). we can see that it is already a good ground unit but the problem comes when you put these pesky guys into a medivac. They are guaranteed to do damage even if the opponent responds almost instantly ( don't try to tell me "pull away the workers" because you can just boost and catch some. Not even two spores stop you from boosting, leaving hellbats, and going away.)
That's actually quite wrong. Low tier units are far more costefficient in small to medium skirmishes and certain low tier units (Marine/Marauder, Roaches, zerglings, blink stalkers, zealots) simply crush a lot of mid/higher tier units even in bigger battles (like Carriers, Tempest, Thor, Banshee, Raven, Ghost, Hydralisk, Dark Templar, Battlecruiser, Broodlord, Immortal, Infestor, Mutalisk). Most of those hightier units are only efficient if they are used as counter to some unit (like Colossus vs Marine/Marauder, Immortal vs Roaches/stalkers) have a ton of cheap support in fron of them (like the hydralisk or the Thor or the Colossus), are a support unit (Ghost, Infestor) or straight up don't fullfill a combat role until you start swapping out units that are cheap per supply for those that are expensive per supply (BC, Carrier, Broodlord). Basically only the 200/200 supply cap and countermechanisms really prevent the game from being only lowtier spam.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Get ovie speed and drops. Boom now all your houses are drop ships... Idk how anything becomes more efficient for doom drops. When I played kawaii on the ladder when he was playing Zerg at the beginnings hots his ling drops were a nightmare
As for the warp prism buff, meh. Did they completely take out the speed upgrade and just make it free or is warp prism even faster than it was pre patch after the upgrade?
10 zealots in ur production when ur out of position can really do enough damage to end the game
Thats so cheap. If you do that he can just a move you at the same time your dropping and loosing units. If that was good why no one doing it except tlo? And hes not even doing it anymore.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Get ovie speed and drops. Boom now all your houses are drop ships... Idk how anything becomes more efficient for doom drops. When I played kawaii on the ladder when he was playing Zerg at the beginnings hots his ling drops were a nightmare
As for the warp prism buff, meh. Did they completely take out the speed upgrade and just make it free or is warp prism even faster than it was pre patch after the upgrade?
10 zealots in ur production when ur out of position can really do enough damage to end the game
The upgrade is still here, and the upgraded warp prism speed is still the same. So it won't effect the late game at all.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
"Drop capability" and "harass" aren't exactly the same thing, and as previously pointed out, muta harass costs 1700+ gas and minerals for a unit that is terrible in straight up fights and doesn't transition well into anything pre-hive.
While muta harass is indeed a very common and successful tactic employed by Zerg players, I would challenge you to name 2 more heavy harass builds from Zerg.
If your honest, its quite easy to admit that Zerg lacks harassment options at least as much as Protoss, if not more so. Particularly due to the fact that drops and nydus are both prohibitively expensive in the modern game. Zerg simply cannot afford either of these, enough units to make them useful, and the necessary infrastructure behind it to transition into something else.
I personally don't have an issue with the warp prism buff, but to call lack of harassment options a Protoss exclusive issue, is just dishonest.
On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote: Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore.
Yeah, but the style where they kinda go muta with the thread of switching to roaches at any moment is terrifying. You scout a spire after some early roaches, but don't know if you should invest in stargate units or keep up with your ground army. And even if you figure it out, the zerg can still go muta at any time.
So going straight muta is bad, but tech switches are still awesome, if not more so.
Mmm I don't think the roach/muta threat is that bad, just make phoenix/voidray and you have counters to both, the bigger threat is if they transition from spire into roach/hydra faster then you can transition to storm/colossi.
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it?
...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
Of course you get attention by buffing a unit. EVERY buff works like that, so the first warp prism buff was surely NOT a prime example. It was just a regular -needed- buff.
btw it's also: stronger unit --> more use more attention --> more use So by measuring the usage, we can't say whether it was mostly a promotion or a buff. However by checking what the buff did (+30% hitpoints!!!!!), we can clearly see that it was first and foremost the first kind of stuff.
The prime example for a buff promoting something would be the Protoss upgrade buff, which was unsignificant (something like 200 resources cheaper over a duration of 15-20mins) and being done after Creator (and Genius) destroyed Terrans with double forges. It was basically like blizzard saying "hey protoss, we know you have bad winrates right now. But there is this strategy out there that you really should try because it seems to work fantastically."
sure, i see what youre getting at and i dont disagree; i should have worded my point more carefully, and youre right that the ups are a better example. i merely mean to say that even if the stats buff is not huge in its late game influence (since speed couldve been researched anyway) it is likely to become much more trendy to use the WP in that situation, which makes me really worried for the viability of mech play (which is still rarely seen and virtually unheardof on the pro level, despite the hots buffs to it) given how immobile it is. even now, in the few situations where toss have used mid-late (lets say 14+ minute) WP harass, i find it very hard to defend without losing a bunch of shit in my base; post-buff it will not only be stronger, but i believe much more common as well, and that bums me out. not saying it is 'totally imba' or anything like that, just that its gonna be very frustrating in a way that speedvacs arent (i admit that they must be quite frustrating in their only right, esp in the 7-12 minute kind of timeframe, and i wouldnt be terribly upset if they got nerfed through some kind of speed/health tradeoff similar to stim)
On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote: sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases
They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you.
i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it?
...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
The nick name for the WP before the 60 shield buff was "The paper plane". I remember watching Nony trying to do immortal drops back then and the WP was being chased off by 2 marines. Or MC losing 4 high templar because a couple vikings looked at the WP for half a second.
i dont remember those particular games, but at the time i think i couldve counted the number of WPs i had seen in my own games on 1 hand -- the stats buff obviously made the harass more effective, and i think it was completely justified, but i think the WP could have been somewhat more effective at non-pro levels beforehand if people had experimented with it more, and even a much more modest buff probably wouldve had the effect of increasing that usage. then again, during that period i was pretty low on the ladder, so maybe my perception of that is skewed
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Forcefields, time warps, storms, splitting templar, blinking stalkers to focus fire Vikings, pulling back zealots that are getting kited. Protoss doesn't 1A. Please stop thinking we do.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
I like how simply you view the game. Terran's only strength is mobility. Not superior range, cost-effective DPS, cost-effective drops/harassment, insane base defense, best low-tier/low-gas units, best econ-per-base, cheapest upgrades, or anything like that. The ONLY thing Terran has going for them is mobility... Man, how does Terran ever win a fight straight up?
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
I like how simply you view the game. Terran's only strength is mobility. Not superior range, cost-effective DPS, cost-effective drops/harassment, insane base defense, best low-tier/low-gas units, best econ-per-base, cheapest upgrades, or anything like that. The ONLY thing Terran has going for them is mobility... Man, how does Terran ever win a fight straight up?
By getting ahead in tech/econ through their superior mobility.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
I thought each race was mobile depending on what units they decided to build. Or is that just me.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
I like how simply you view the game. Terran's only strength is mobility. Not superior range, cost-effective DPS, cost-effective drops/harassment, insane base defense, best low-tier/low-gas units, best econ-per-base, cheapest upgrades, or anything like that. The ONLY thing Terran has going for them is mobility... Man, how does Terran ever win a fight straight up?
By getting ahead in tech/econ through their superior mobility.
Yeah, because Terran has never won a single game ever by pushing the front. That's not even a concern when facing Terrans is it?
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
I thought each race was mobile depending on what units they decided to build. Or is that just me.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
I like how simply you view the game. Terran's only strength is mobility. Not superior range, cost-effective DPS, cost-effective drops/harassment, insane base defense, best low-tier/low-gas units, best econ-per-base, cheapest upgrades, or anything like that. The ONLY thing Terran has going for them is mobility... Man, how does Terran ever win a fight straight up?
By getting ahead in tech/econ through their superior mobility.
Yeah, because Terran has never won a single game ever by pushing the front. That's not even a concern when facing Terrans is it?
Honestly I have no idea what you are even arguing about. The guy who said terran relies on their mobility is absolutely correct, and you start arguing about semantics and how its not their ONLY ADVANTAGE.
No shit its not their only advantage, but its still a much more prominent part of any good terrans gameplay. Saying that protoss harass options should be compared to that of bio terrans is absolute delusion.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
Who is butthurt? I don't even play Protoss anymore, but that people STILL say it's a 1a race amazes me.
On June 20 2013 23:55 HardlyNever wrote: This thread was reduced to race bashing and balance qq on page one. There is only one rational response to this and it is to + Show Spoiler +
actually wait and see what happens after this change has been in the game a while
.
But hey, don't ever change TL.
Yeah this is like the 5th or 6th time its been mentioned. Just please keep the whine out of my lr threads
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
I like how simply you view the game. Terran's only strength is mobility. Not superior range, cost-effective DPS, cost-effective drops/harassment, insane base defense, best low-tier/low-gas units, best econ-per-base, cheapest upgrades, or anything like that. The ONLY thing Terran has going for them is mobility... Man, how does Terran ever win a fight straight up?
not that i wanna comment on balance at all here but terran does not have good base defence, its actually horrible compared to what you can do with toss and zerg static defense. if terran got cannons instead of PF the game would be completely broken.
On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote: What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
What he should have said is "Same cost efficiency given the same amount of investment". Clearly high tier units tend to be more cost efficient (else why would I even make them?). at 100 minerals there is nothing that, in general situations, come close to the hellbat. It stomps lings, trades effectively with banelings, barely loses to roaches (75/25, so one could say that a roach is worth more). we can see that it is already a good ground unit but the problem comes when you put these pesky guys into a medivac. They are guaranteed to do damage even if the opponent responds almost instantly ( don't try to tell me "pull away the workers" because you can just boost and catch some. Not even two spores stop you from boosting, leaving hellbats, and going away.)
That's actually quite wrong. Low tier units are far more costefficient in small to medium skirmishes and certain low tier units (Marine/Marauder, Roaches, zerglings, blink stalkers, zealots) simply crush a lot of mid/higher tier units even in bigger battles (like Carriers, Tempest, Thor, Banshee, Raven, Ghost, Hydralisk, Dark Templar, Battlecruiser, Broodlord, Immortal, Infestor, Mutalisk). Most of those hightier units are only efficient if they are used as counter to some unit (like Colossus vs Marine/Marauder, Immortal vs Roaches/stalkers) have a ton of cheap support in fron of them (like the hydralisk or the Thor or the Colossus), are a support unit (Ghost, Infestor) or straight up don't fullfill a combat role until you start swapping out units that are cheap per supply for those that are expensive per supply (BC, Carrier, Broodlord). Basically only the 200/200 supply cap and countermechanisms really prevent the game from being only lowtier spam.
What you said does not disprove what I said. It specifies something I thought was obvious. the mid-high tier units will be cost effective given the usual ways of using them(the ones you listed).
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry.
Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made.
Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced.
I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry.
Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made.
Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced.
You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone.
The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry.
Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made.
Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced.
You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone.
The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too.
Yeah I think I'm gonna stop trying to reason with you.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry.
Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made.
Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced.
You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone.
The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too.
Yeah I think I'm gonna stop trying to reason with you.
Well, you were really just whining, rather than reasoning. Just saying that the protoss army is better flat out and terran needs to be balanced and made better isn't really an argument.
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
Stop getting butthurt over a letter and a number, obviously he just meant that protoss is strongest in a straight up engagement.
They can be. They also can not bee if they are caught out of position, miss storms or do not have a good comp to deal with the terran army. Its isn't that cut and dry.
Yeah if the toss does a major fuck-up he can still lose. The difference in army strength is still big enough that a generalization can be made.
Why else do you think terrans are taking earlier thirds, getting maxed faster and dealing econ damage yet still losing games? Protoss army stronk, and it needs to be for the MU to be balanced.
You mean if the other player messes up, you can win the game? That applies to everyone.
The same reason everyone takes early third bases, because they can? Why wouldn't you? When you can, expand. If you could take an early 4th, you would do that too.
Yeah I think I'm gonna stop trying to reason with you.
Well, you were really just whining, rather than reasoning. Just saying that the protoss army is better flat out and terran needs to be balanced and made better isn't really an argument.
How fucking badly can you misread my posts?
Where was I asking for terran buffs? I said the protoss army is strong AS IT NEEDS TO BE because terran has the tools to get ahead economically. Dear god.
So even though that everyone complains aboout helbat drops they remove the nerf and leave the prism buff which no one asked for? This game has 99 problems but prism speed aint one, why cant you open your eyes blizzard ffs.
I love how terrans complain about Protoss being the 1a race when Terran is the real 1a race ... Stim micro and EMPs are the only 2 spells terran really needs to use in an engagement, vs. protoss who as others have posted, need to throw up guardian shield, force fields, storms, blinks, time warp with mothership core, and keep collosus in a favorable position, while keeping zealots and archons in the front of the army. Sure, its the strongest race in a straight up engagement, but I wish people would stop saying that it is 1a, and whining about protoss getting a buff when they are clearly the worst performing race.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
ZvT seems pretty balanced atm and everybody likes watching it.
phoenix good unit
they're experimenting with nerfing hellbat damamge
Ridiculously cost efficient T3 units to back up the gateway units means that its generally not too much of a problem, also stardust wants a word with you.
I haven't heard about VRs crushing stalkers, but it seems natural that they should, they're higher tier tech and cost way more.
I feel like most of the concerns you've brought up aren't terribly large problems. Blizzard wanted toss to have harassment options.
why does the race with the best deathball armies need better harass tools?
toss aren't harassing, not because they don't have good ways to harass, but because camping and turtling to 200/200 3/3 is much stronger.
blizzard should fix the deathball a-click nonsense before buffing toss harass capabilities, which are already strong enough as is (warp-in, stargate, dt, blink, old prism).
On June 21 2013 00:21 Xyik wrote: I love how terrans complain about Protoss being the 1a race when Terran is the real 1a race ... Stim micro and EMPs are the only 2 spells terran really needs to use in an engagement, vs. protoss who as others have posted, need to throw up guardian shield, force fields, storms, blinks, time warp with mothership core, and keep collosus in a favorable position, while keeping zealots and archons in the front of the army. Sure, its the strongest race in a straight up engagement, but I wish people would stop saying that it is 1a, and whining about protoss getting a buff when they are clearly the worst performing race.
what? you mean bio split, stutterstep, multi prone drops, concave, emp while need to make sure vikings aren't moving too fast forward etc is the 1a race? ultimate a move ball = toss chargelot archon tech switch ball
honestly I think zerg needs a better harassment tool, especially in ZvT right now where even muta is just used as a way to deny drops rather than harassment.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Haha I did not mean to start this shit-storm so go speak. I was merely adding flavor to my comment. What I mean is there Isolde forgiving battle management playing as Protoss
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
If you don't enjoy watching TvZ atm you're probably in the vast minority. Also balance is more important than "how fun it is to watch" since the second one is really subjective.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
If you don't enjoy watching TvZ atm you're probably in the vast minority. Also balance is more important than "how fun it is to watch" since the second one is really subjective.
Sorry I didn't see the TvZ line, that should be excluded from my assessment.
Further, although balance is important for the immediate success of the game, I would argue enjoyment is more important for longevity. I'm sure we as viewers and players can come to some consensus about what we like to see more of or less of wen watching pro games ie. end of wol TvZ
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
actually, I don't believe gateway units are weak. They just have the problem that they need 3 different upgrades compared to a terran player. Usually players just ignore shield upgrades until late game, thus even when on theoretical equal upgrades with armor + damage in truth they are behind half an upgrade for every level of attack upgrade the enemy has (because they lack shield upgrade). Against Zerg this is not as crucial, as depending on the unit composition the Zerg often times has to spread his upgrades across 3 paths (or ignore one and have half his army much less effective), so the lack of shield upgrades is somewhat compensated for (even more so when considering the range of Protoss units, where often times a shield is not neeeded, and the high-frequency low-damage attacks from Zerglings that make armor upgrades so much better). Not only that, but the upgrades for gateway units are really strong as well. Charge is so much better than just Zealot leg speed in most situations, and when it is not you can deactivate the auto-cast until it is. Blink is about just as deadly. It allows for Stalkers to have incredible mobility, durability and speed if used correctly. Third, in SC2 a gateway army also includes sentries. Deadly army splits with forcefields, single unit base defenders against hordes of enemies, hallucination (scout/tank) and the underused guardian shield makes them fearsome support for the gateway army, and when used correctly multiply its value. I would take an upgraded Zealot/Stalker army over a Zealot/Dragoon army every single time, add in well used Sentries and I would even argue Gateway armies are too strong.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
So you are saying: - zvt is terran favoured? - zvp mutas are too strong? - hellbats are too strong? - gatewayunits are too weak?
Then maybe you can explain to me why: - I don't see terrans dominate in tvz? It looks pretty balanced when watching the matchup. Only innovation and flash are destroying zergs, but imo that's not because of balance. - I don't see zergs dominate in zvp? Last time I checked, the matchup was close to 50%. - I don't see terrans winning every tournament, since hellbats are too strong? - Protoss is doing well at the highest levels, WITH "bad" gateway units? What if we buff the gateway units? Then protoss will do even better?
I think a better way to describe these points is to see them as issues that makes the game less enjoyable to play or watch. - as a caveat to the gateway unit buff, we would also get make trade offs between choosing w tech or gateways and remove colossus for reavers
actually, I don't believe gateway units are weak. They just have the problem that they need 3 different upgrades compared to a terran player. Usually players just ignore shield upgrades until late game, thus even when on theoretical equal upgrades with armor + damage in truth they are behind half an upgrade for every level of attack upgrade the enemy has (because they lack shield upgrade). Against Zerg this is not as crucial, as depending on the unit composition the Zerg often times has to spread his upgrades across 3 paths (or ignore one and have half his army much less effective), so the lack of shield upgrades is somewhat compensated for (even more so when considering the range of Protoss units, where often times a shield is not neeeded, and the high-frequency low-damage attacks from Zerglings that make armor upgrades so much better). Not only that, but the upgrades for gateway units are really strong as well. Charge is so much better than just Zealot leg speed in most situations, and when it is not you can deactivate the auto-cast until it is. Blink is about just as deadly. It allows for Stalkers to have incredible mobility, durability and speed if used correctly. Third, in SC2 a gateway army also includes sentries. Deadly army splits with forcefields, single unit base defenders against hordes of enemies, hallucination (scout/tank) and the underused guardian shield makes them fearsome support for the gateway army, and when used correctly multiply its value. I would take an upgraded Zealot/Stalker army over a Zealot/Dragoon army every single time, add in well used Sentries and I would even argue Gateway armies are too strong.
I'm pretty sure raw dps wise gateway units are weak compared to Terran bio and Zerg roach hydra even unupgraded. Abilities are decent. What I'm talking about is changing the way Protoss behaves in general by dismantling the deathball in exchange for more gateway focuses compositions such as in broodwar
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I'm really excited for this buff, going to make playing a more gateway heavy harass in the midgame a bit easier.
PvZ all-in's look like they could be a bit easier, gotta learn one now.
I don't think this is too bad for TvP,. Defensive widow mines + one turret may see some use potentially, like terrans do vs stargate openings already... think that'd be neat.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
On June 21 2013 01:22 BaronVonOwn wrote: Blizzard said they're doing this because protoss needs better harassment options and high level skill. Isn't that exactly what reaver drops were?
Except the Protoss of old did not have the se deathball capabilities and thus it made sense for harassment options. Yes I agree toss needs better options for harass #BUTWHATCOST
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
@Thieving Magpie: How the fuck is medivac tier 3? What does that make a battlecruiser? Tier 5? It's not about what beats what in which situation, it's the fact that stim + bio + very simple micro counters a unit that is fragile because it may or may not have blink and doesn't outdps a medivac and the other mineral dumb that gets hardcounter by what it's supposed to counter until it has a tier 2 upgrade and after that by hellbats (which are tier 2 in your world?). If you give a race 2 tier 1 spellcaster you can only give it shitty units, but maybe most terrans don't get this as they never played brood war (brood war dragoons are 20 times better than stalker will ever be).
nice insane Dt drop will be even faster.......or prism all in on ramp.....More dumb change reallly neeeded when pvt is p favored cause Nexus canon can def literally every all in from 1/2 base vs protoss.........So he gets all tech anyway and won late game most of cases....Dt drop to nexus no way to punish it......
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
You know that he posted evidence that a Robo at 19:45 was enough for Parting to beat Flash. It was on this page even.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
You know that he posted evidence that a Robo at 19:45 was enough for Parting to beat Flash. It was on this page even.
How can you ever be so dumb to use a single game, take it completly out of context, pick one building timign and use that as evidence? Marineking also beat genius with mech on dualsight in some gsl season, does that mean you can totally mech vs toss in wol?
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
I'm GM for the 8th consecutive season, what about you? Quite low judging by the bolded part if you imply that Terrans should stop Marines once Protoss has Storm. Example above with the Gold leaguer "PartinG" against "Flash," probably top Bronze on SEA or something.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
On June 21 2013 00:21 Xyik wrote: I love how terrans complain about Protoss being the 1a race when Terran is the real 1a race ... Stim micro and EMPs are the only 2 spells terran really needs to use in an engagement, vs. protoss who as others have posted, need to throw up guardian shield, force fields, storms, blinks, time warp with mothership core, and keep collosus in a favorable position, while keeping zealots and archons in the front of the army. Sure, its the strongest race in a straight up engagement, but I wish people would stop saying that it is 1a, and whining about protoss getting a buff when they are clearly the worst performing race.
what? you mean bio split, stutterstep, multi prone drops, concave, emp while need to make sure vikings aren't moving too fast forward etc is the 1a race? ultimate a move ball = toss chargelot archon tech switch ball
honestly I think zerg needs a better harassment tool, especially in ZvT right now where even muta is just used as a way to deny drops rather than harassment.
Splitting and concave are mostly done before the engagement, if you are dancing constantly to dodge storms you're probably already in trouble. You probably don't have enough ghosts then. Stutter stepping is a-moving backwards... Not that difficult to do really plus not entirely necessary if you mix in hellbats with your army. EMP is comparable to storm in how it is casted. And Vikings could follow a medivac when moving with the army and aren't that hard to pull back since they are air units.
On June 20 2013 13:12 EFermi wrote: No hellbat nerf? Why??
On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote: And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago.
This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit.
Taeja is a superior player to herO, and should therefore win a majority of those matches. And the same could be said for protoss having a superior counter for every single terran unit, it just all depends on how those units are used during the engagement, and protoss micro is insanely easy in a maxed out fight compared to what terran has to do. Husky is a low masters player, and he keeps his entire army on one hotkey, whereas terran needs a minimum of 3 (bio, ghosts, and vikings).
Wrong on both accounts. herO is absolutely not inferior to TaeJA in any way, (other than maybe the race he's chosen). Terran units are not countered anywhere near as hard compared to protoss, with the exception of the marine, the dealing of which is the backbone of any XvT build.
Protoss hotkeys can be spread out as well if you want perfect control. Doesn't really matter since anyone with 5 fingers can press 1a2a3a.
Lol, yeah nice try troll. Just try a moving ghosts at all and see what happens (they die very quickly), or try just a moving vikings into a large group of stalkers (same thing), oh and guess what, same thing with bio. Terran has to split their bio, only commit their vikings if the collosi are actually gonna stay and fire (which is of course at the point and time of toss' choosing), keep their ghosts alive long enough the emp/snipe ht and archons without dying to the instacast feedback, while simultaneously kiting bio vs chargelots, storms, and collosi shots.
And what does protoss have to do during this? A move their entire army, which allows the chargelots to force back the bio, giving stalkers more than enough time to pick of the vikings if the commit then, or collosi to gets shots of on ghosts/bio if they dont. Im not saying Terran cant win straight up fights, its just so much more mechanically taxing for them to do so.
And as far as herO being "absolutely not inferior to Taeja in any way", thats like, uh, your opinion man.
Hey, guess what? Templar require a lot more careful control than ghosts considering that they're slower, have less health, are more expensive, don't have cloak or unstoppable scans. Vikings are also not as frail as you make it out to be and they kill colossus much quicker than Stalkers kill them.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Careful, theDwf can referece GSL and other pro games at will. It's a truly frightening talent :p
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
The matchup hinges on the fact that Terran can reach his tech a little bit faster than protoss can and hence we get the defensive dance of the protoss turtle.
The point DWF was making is that the numbers on Gateway units are not weak; which is true.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Lol you mean the game where Flash was casually walking into storms with his bio army and then was sacrificing ghosts constantly in the lategame? If that game is your best argument for P lategame power your head isn't right.
On June 20 2013 13:12 EFermi wrote: No hellbat nerf? Why??
On June 20 2013 13:11 Survivor61316 wrote: And these comparisons between turbovacs and speedprisms equality are absolutely ridiculous in so many ways..most glaringly is the fact that tvp is built around harassment of the toss because an untouched toss is absolutely unbeatable in maxed out straight up fights. To give toss a much easier way to not only harass, but simultaneously punish the terrans harass bc they wont have as much left at home to defend is going in the complete wrong direction with this match up.
Tell that to herO when he played Taeja in proleague from a week ago.
This isn't WoL, terran has a superior counter to every single protoss unit.
Taeja is a superior player to herO, and should therefore win a majority of those matches. And the same could be said for protoss having a superior counter for every single terran unit, it just all depends on how those units are used during the engagement, and protoss micro is insanely easy in a maxed out fight compared to what terran has to do. Husky is a low masters player, and he keeps his entire army on one hotkey, whereas terran needs a minimum of 3 (bio, ghosts, and vikings).
Wrong on both accounts. herO is absolutely not inferior to TaeJA in any way, (other than maybe the race he's chosen). Terran units are not countered anywhere near as hard compared to protoss, with the exception of the marine, the dealing of which is the backbone of any XvT build.
Protoss hotkeys can be spread out as well if you want perfect control. Doesn't really matter since anyone with 5 fingers can press 1a2a3a.
Lol, yeah nice try troll. Just try a moving ghosts at all and see what happens (they die very quickly), or try just a moving vikings into a large group of stalkers (same thing), oh and guess what, same thing with bio. Terran has to split their bio, only commit their vikings if the collosi are actually gonna stay and fire (which is of course at the point and time of toss' choosing), keep their ghosts alive long enough the emp/snipe ht and archons without dying to the instacast feedback, while simultaneously kiting bio vs chargelots, storms, and collosi shots.
And what does protoss have to do during this? A move their entire army, which allows the chargelots to force back the bio, giving stalkers more than enough time to pick of the vikings if the commit then, or collosi to gets shots of on ghosts/bio if they dont. Im not saying Terran cant win straight up fights, its just so much more mechanically taxing for them to do so.
And as far as herO being "absolutely not inferior to Taeja in any way", thats like, uh, your opinion man.
Hey, guess what? Templar require a lot more careful control than ghosts considering that they're slower, have less health, are more expensive, don't have cloak or unstoppable scans. Vikings are also not as frail as you make it out to be and they kill colossus much quicker than Stalkers kill them.
Ghost cost more than HTs, but the rest of the stuff you said is pretty much correct. They move at the speed of Thors and are the slowest of all protoss ground units.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
Without heals, bio can't beat pure gateway units.
AoE counters the heals.
I have never tested it, I remember that above 140-160 supply, even upgraded gateway units couldn't punch through upgraded bio without an AOE. I could be incorrect and medivacs are required for that to happen.
On June 21 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote: But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
Of course. But High Templars and, to a lesser extent, Archons do provide AoE, and both are gate units.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
You either play on a gold level and have never played a single game of protoss before, or you are just a troll. Just by being able to neglect defenders advantage and having forcefield so early on, stalker/zealot has to be shit just by the way blizzard designed protoss. You may be able to open twilight and stay on "gateway" units (which in that case only survive any fight because you build marines vs psi storm) for a while, but at 20 minutes pure gateway should die to even ghost-free compositions quiet easily, unless of course you are looking at lower leagues and 20 minutes is the point where you take your 3rd.
@Thieving Magpie: How the fuck is medivac tier 3? What does that make a battlecruiser? Tier 5? It's not about what beats what in which situation, it's the fact that stim + bio + very simple micro counters a unit that is fragile because it may or may not have blink and doesn't outdps a medivac and the other mineral dumb that gets hardcounter by what it's supposed to counter until it has a tier 2 upgrade and after that by hellbats (which are tier 2 in your world?). If you give a race 2 tier 1 spellcaster you can only give it shitty units, but maybe most terrans don't get this as they never played brood war (brood war dragoons are 20 times better than stalker will ever be).
first of all: your overly aggressive tone won't help you.
And as a matter of fact you can't consider a medivac "tier 1". It doesn't come out of a Barracks(t1) and requires investment into a factory(t2) before it comes out of a starport(t3). By all reasonable measures a medivac is a tier 3 unit.
If you want to, you could consider a BC a tier 3.5 unit but it doesn't make sense to judge a unit because of what you "feel" it is doing. A roach/hydra army with viper support is still a tier3 army. And a marine/marauder army with medivacs is also a tier 3 army. Pure Marine/marauder would be the tier 1(.5) army you were looking for. And stim without healing isn't as strong in the long run just as zealot/stalker/sentry.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
I am not as good at the game as you are and I am going to have to concede the point. But I think the point that Dowsy was trying to make was that without AOE damage of some form, protoss cannot compete with bio forever.
Without heals, bio can't beat pure gateway units.
AoE counters the heals.
I have never tested it, I remember that above 140-160 supply, even upgraded gateway units couldn't punch through upgraded bio without an AOE. I could be incorrect and medivacs are required for that to happen.
Depends on terrain really. Forcefields are ridiculously strong even in engagements that large. But once you have 8-10 medivacs "cutting off" parts of the army is not very effective sine they can only really heal parts at a time.
Flat terrain with a surround, Terran still wins. Properly positioned locations? Protoss wins. 90% determined by player's skill.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi.
Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
And if your other game is THAT particular game on Daybreak, where saying Flash went full foreigner would probably be considered an insult to most foreigners, I don't think there is any point in even trying...
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi.
Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
And if your other game is THAT particular game on Daybreak, where saying Flash went full foreigner would probably be considered an insult to most foreigners, I don't think there is any point in even trying...
I'm sorry, Flash had 6 bases to Parting's 4--almost any other player would have outright died and no foreigner would even be considered in the running. Parting got out by talent and skill alone and he did it with nothing but gateways and his middle finger flipping a bird to god himself.
Parting showed that you can be down 2 bases versus bio and still break even as be slowly clawed his way back up into the game.
The overall direction is to have both players going on the offensive, which (usually) is more interesting to watch. Not sure whether all crisis management, all the time is more or less fun to play, but as a player that watches matches more than he plays, that doesn't affect me as much.
I will say that TvP matches were getting awfully predictable to watch - Terran gets medivacs and does drops (of admittedly varied compositions inside the medivacs, but the end result isn't that different), Protoss defends for ~20-30 minutes until they get a death ball, then one big army fight happens and one side or the other wins the game. Putting aside whether this is better for balance, this should at least keep things more interesting, as both sides have to allocate resources between offense and defense, rather than T going 100% offense and P going 100% defense.
This is going to hurt Swarm Hosts vs Protoss, I think. Not that Zerg really had to go that route, and time will tell if it's still a good option regardless. Some maps where a single Swarm Host position could control all paths across the middle should be less of a no-brainer in terms of unit selection.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
I think that combo of units comes down to who is better at the game and controlling their units.
uhh...your comparing those two compositions? and your saying nothing of how marine maruader Medivac are available much sooner? Its useless comparing the two
The only difference this makes is up to the point where Colossus range is researched. Previously, you would wait for WP speed until your colo range was done, because that's more important. So all this does is make warp prisms 20% faster up to say.. the 11 minute mark latest? After that NOTHING CHANGES.
So all these claims of Protoss will now be IMBA because they will come in and warp 30 zealots in my base... are way overblown. Keep in mind that the warp prism can't move while it's warping stuff in. So the only impact of this change is that you'll be able to harass a little more with the 4 units that you can carry, and you might be able to save 4 units from dying. Anything else you warp in beyond those 4 units is not impacted in any way by the buff.
This is purely an early game buff that should make things a little bit more interesting to watch in the period that Protoss can't really move out with its entire army but can do a little light harass.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
Its the invisibility of the upgrades and gas cost of infantry support.
When they say "gateway are ineffective" what they mean is "I had a gateway army and it died vs Stim/Shield/Slow/Marine/Marauder/Medivac"
You see, when Terran gets tier 3 Medivacs, it's considered Tier 1 despite requiring 300/200 worth of buildings to get.
Hence why they feel that its not fair since the "tier 1 army" that has 250/250 worth of upgrades and is supported by a 8-10 units that cost 100/100 each beats their Stalker/Zealot/Sentry build.
Nice straw man. Charge 200/200, Blink 150/150, Storm, 200/200 Plus the over-all expense of gateway units and terran take take a third before toss.
I think that combo of units comes down to who is better at the game and controlling their units.
uhh...your comparing those two compositions? and your saying nothing of how marine maruader Medivac are available much sooner? Its useless comparing the two
I wasn't.
My initial post was showing that Marine/Maruader/Medivac beats Stalker/Zealot/Sentry because people consider Medivacs as teir 1 although they're closer to tier 3
I was reminding people that Stalker/Sentry/Zealot beats pure Marine/maruader
If you get medivacs, then protoss also gets their own tech. If you get stim and shields, protoss gets fast +1/+1
At lategame your stim plus +3/+3 is better than protoss' +3/+3/+3, but protoss Templar/Colossus is better than terran's medivac/Ghost/Viking
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
Indeed, macro terran can max before 15 mins. I've seen terran hit max at 14 minutes with 2-2 when i hit a high master quite a while ago and he knew i couldn't do anything to him, so 15-16 min max should come easy.
Pretty hilarious to try to deal with that using gate units unless you count templar and preying for storms as gateway units. If you trade with him early and midgame as much as possible and run double forge, sure you can play gateway heavy for much longer than otherwise, but that's not exactly the best way to play PvT in most people's minds or we would see it more often
I was reminding people that Stalker/Sentry/Zealot beats pure Marine/maruader
In small numbers with good control, or in small/med numbers with good forcefields, other abilities or maybe an upgrade advantage (guardian shield in particular if terran can't micro to stop you from abusing them) then sure. Otherwise, you are delusional. Going past 100-150 supply without AOE unless you'll hit 3-3 vs 1-1 is asking to die horribly.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
Indeed, macro terran can max before 15 mins. I've seen terran hit max at 14 minutes with 2-2 when i hit a high master quite a while ago and he knew i couldn't do anything to him, so 15-16 min max should come easy.
Pretty hilarious to try to deal with that using gate units unless you count templar and preying for storms as gateway units. If you trade with him early and midgame as much as possible and run double forge, sure you can play gateway heavy for much longer than otherwise, but that's not exactly the best way to play PvT in most people's minds or we would see it more often
I was reminding people that Stalker/Sentry/Zealot beats pure Marine/maruader
In small numbers with good control, or in small/med numbers with good forcefields, other abilities or maybe an upgrade advantage (guardian shield in particular if terran can't micro to stop you from abusing them) then sure. Otherwise, you are delusional. Going past 100-150 supply without AOE unless you'll hit 3-3 vs 1-1 is asking to die horribly.
You can get storm before 15 minutes, and good storm use is what got parting his notoriety.
Once armies goes up to 100-150, you'll have zealot/archon/stalker + storms which is even enough vs Marine Marauder Medivac.
The game is not played in a unit simulator, units are balanced based on timings, not hypotheticals.
Parting and SoS shows its possible.
DWF, a GM, says its possible.
DWF has shown two replays of protoss players delaying robo for 20-30 minutes and still holding their own--so don't tell me it's impossible to do when there is evidence that it is.
On June 21 2013 00:13 Drowsy wrote: I don't think anyone is happy about this patch really. There's so many other problems; the entire zvt matchup, mutas in zvp, hellbats in everything, gateway units are still weak cost ineffective pieces of shit, and VRs crushing stalkers. This buff feels completely random and unrelated to the actual balance problems.
Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi.
Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
And if your other game is THAT particular game on Daybreak, where saying Flash went full foreigner would probably be considered an insult to most foreigners, I don't think there is any point in even trying...
I'm sorry, Flash had 6 bases to Parting's 4--almost any other player would have outright died and no foreigner would even be considered in the running. Parting got out by talent and skill alone and he did it with nothing but gateways and his middle finger flipping a bird to god himself.
Parting showed that you can be down 2 bases versus bio and still break even as be slowly clawed his way back up into the game.
I don't think you understand the concept of "full foreigner". Of course no foreigner would have a chance in that spot 99 percent of the time, that's not the point. FLASH turned into the "foreigner" throwing a huge lead with derptastic unit control.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
35% winrate for protoss in pvt? And you believe that?
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
Technically he's arguing from an expert of the field who plays the game who is citing 2 case studies that support his claim.
"argument from authority" is problematic when you don't question your teachers or when you say "my boss says" or "my professor says," etc...
When a GM acts as a witness to an observation and has case studies to show as a non-anecdotal evidence, it stops being an argument from authority.
As for the winrates deal, I thought it was actually pretty even outside of Korea?
On June 21 2013 02:48 packrat386 wrote: This thread has literally just become an argument about whether PvT is imbalanced. Can we get this closed?
Agreed. Think about the changes here.
Warp prisms are slightly faster until Protoss researches Warp Prism speed. Then they are the same speed as before. This only impacts the 1-4 units that the Warp Prism is actually carrying, in the early game. The Warp Prism can't spawn units while it's moving. So maybe it sneaks into your base 0.4 speed faster? Is that what all the fuss is about?
Keep in mind Warp Prisms are 4 times as big as Medivacs on the minimap. So they're much easier to see coming.
On June 21 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote: [quote] Dreaming of the day this stupid myth will finally die. You're aware Protoss can play PvT during like 20 minuts without any Colossus or Immortal (i. e. on pure "gate units" which supposedly "suck") and still be fine?
I don't think you are playing the same game as everyone else. You need robo units a lot earlier than 20 minutes.
I know the game, and incidentally your own race, much better than you, thanks. Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S RO16: 19'45 robobay, still wins the game. What say you?
So one game between two of the best players in the world? I think that might be a limited sample set. Just putting it out there. In general protoss needs to get robo just as much at terran needs to get medivacs.
Another example then: Bogus vs sOs, Neo Planet S: 35 minuts of PvT with zero robo fighting unit.
One thing is certain, Protoss can play zeal/archons/storm for quite a long time, not starting Colossi before for instance their fourth (~16-17 minuts usually). Sometimes there are 2-3 Immortals along this composition, but clearly they're not the core of the composition which makes it viable.
Why do you cite these games where Protoss gets dominated as some kind of evidence? sOs also played tempest/HT that game, Tempests have approximately the same cost as colossi. I'm amazed that you think anyone would fall for your arguments of being able to fight with gateway units when sOs massed tempests.
PartinG won his game, and sOs wasn't far from winning his either. The fact Tempests have the same cost as Colossi is irrelevant; what made his strategy work to some extent, outside of the particular map layout with cliff, is that zeals/storm (= gate units) is efficient at handling bio, at least before Terran gets like 15-20 Ghosts which takes a long time. The sure thing is that saying "gate units suck" is stupid since there are countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units during 15+ minuts before starting to build Colossi.
Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
And if your other game is THAT particular game on Daybreak, where saying Flash went full foreigner would probably be considered an insult to most foreigners, I don't think there is any point in even trying...
I'm sorry, Flash had 6 bases to Parting's 4--almost any other player would have outright died and no foreigner would even be considered in the running. Parting got out by talent and skill alone and he did it with nothing but gateways and his middle finger flipping a bird to god himself.
Parting showed that you can be down 2 bases versus bio and still break even as be slowly clawed his way back up into the game.
I don't think you understand the concept of "full foreigner". Of course no foreigner would have a chance in that spot 99 percent of the time, that's not the point. FLASH turned into the "foreigner" throwing a huge lead with derptastic unit control.
You mean the same unit control he used to get his two base lead?
He spent the entire game making trades in order to let his economic advantage push him towards victory. He continued on doing that in the lategame except that at that point Parting stabilized.
He then, initially, transitioned to heavy Viking play thinking Parting would go Colossus. But then parting went Stargate forcing Flash to overbuild Vikings. But instead of pushing, Parting traded and began building up his army more. Flash, continued to tech and and decided to go BC. Terran air traded with protoss air but Parting squeezed in a few colossi and with warp in rounds was able to shift to a mainly ground based army after their 2nd big fight.
It was obvious Flash normally beats most everyone he plays using that strategy. It's obvious he was used to a gg once you get that far. Parting's perseverance showed rattled flash, but it didn't break flash. Parting simply outplayed flash.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
As for the winrates deal, I thought it was actually pretty even outside of Korea?
You should probably check the date on those statistics you just posted.
Look at WCS Korea right now, out of the first 4 groups (16 players) only one Protoss has made it through and he made it through doing all-in timings, not macro play. Protoss is having trouble at the highest level doing anything other than timings. Stardust won a tournament off doing essentially the immortal/sentry over and over again. Would he have beat Jaedong playing macro games? Probably not.
Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't.
Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't.
I fail to see how saying that Protoss gateway units don't actually suck is ridiculous.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
As for the winrates deal, I thought it was actually pretty even outside of Korea?
You should probably check the date on those statistics you just posted.
Look at WCS Korea right now, out of the first 4 groups (16 players) only one Protoss has made it through and he made it through doing all-in timings, not macro play. Protoss is having trouble at the highest level doing anything other than timings. Stardust won a tournament off doing essentially the immortal/sentry over and over again. Would he have beat Jaedong playing macro games? Probably not.
Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't.
Which is why I said "outside of Korea"
Stardust won because Korean PvZ is very much in favor of protoss according the statistic...
And what he said was not ridiculous. Without medivacs, marines cannot stand toe to toe with gateway units. Without stim, bio does not deal as much damage as zealot/forcefield (in the early game) and charglots (in the late game)
He had two case studies of recent games, older games also showed it possible such as Adelscott and Nony early in SC2 when they focused on fast double forge play and pheonix play.
He's showing what is possible. He's not saying you can make 20 zealots, and then a-move to victory. There's a reason his two samples were SoS and Parting, two of the best protoss in the world right now and had it been any other protoss in their position they would have died before anyone would have a memory of them.
But there was a time when only MKP could split.
For everything we now take for granted in SC2 there was a time when it was "too hard" "impossible" "can't be done" and every-time those preconceptions were shattered by someone stupid enough to work on it.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
As for the winrates deal, I thought it was actually pretty even outside of Korea?
You should probably check the date on those statistics you just posted.
Look at WCS Korea right now, out of the first 4 groups (16 players) only one Protoss has made it through and he made it through doing all-in timings, not macro play. Protoss is having trouble at the highest level doing anything other than timings. Stardust won a tournament off doing essentially the immortal/sentry over and over again. Would he have beat Jaedong playing macro games? Probably not.
Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't.
Which is why I said "outside of Korea"
Stardust won because Korean PvZ is very much in favor of protoss according the statistic...
And what he said was not ridiculous. Without medivacs, marines cannot stand toe to toe with gateway units. Without stim, bio does not deal as much damage as zealot/forcefield (in the early game) and charglots (in the late game)
He had two case studies of recent games, older games also showed it possible such as Adelscott and Nony early in SC2 when they focused on fast double forge play and pheonix play.
He's showing what is possible. He's not saying you can make 20 zealots, and then a-move to victory. There's a reason his two samples were SoS and Parting, two of the best protoss in the world right now and had it been any other protoss in their position they would have died before anyone would have a memory of them.
But there was a time when only MKP could split.
For everything we now take for granted in SC2 there was a time when it was "too hard" "impossible" "can't be done" and every-time those preconceptions were shattered by someone stupid enough to work on it.
I'm still completely lost about what you are talking about with regards to those statistics. They are over a year old and from a different game.
Hey Guys. How about we don't freak out like a bunch of children, play some ladder games, watch some professional play, and take stock of the change with cool heads in a few weeks.
Or you could continue with knee-jerk reactions fueled by emotion rather than experience or facts.
As Z, looking forward to see how the match up changes.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
As for the winrates deal, I thought it was actually pretty even outside of Korea?
You should probably check the date on those statistics you just posted.
Look at WCS Korea right now, out of the first 4 groups (16 players) only one Protoss has made it through and he made it through doing all-in timings, not macro play. Protoss is having trouble at the highest level doing anything other than timings. Stardust won a tournament off doing essentially the immortal/sentry over and over again. Would he have beat Jaedong playing macro games? Probably not.
Also, Dwf said something kinda ridiculous and people called him out on it. It's good to have healthy discussion and challenge authority and not just accept what they say as fact. In any scientific field if someone says something crazy people are going to call them out on it, no matter who they are. If Stephen Hawking said the world was actually just a turtle shell would people just blindly believe him because he is Stephen Hawking? Of course they wouldn't.
Which is why I said "outside of Korea"
Stardust won because Korean PvZ is very much in favor of protoss according the statistic...
And what he said was not ridiculous. Without medivacs, marines cannot stand toe to toe with gateway units. Without stim, bio does not deal as much damage as zealot/forcefield (in the early game) and charglots (in the late game)
He had two case studies of recent games, older games also showed it possible such as Adelscott and Nony early in SC2 when they focused on fast double forge play and pheonix play.
He's showing what is possible. He's not saying you can make 20 zealots, and then a-move to victory. There's a reason his two samples were SoS and Parting, two of the best protoss in the world right now and had it been any other protoss in their position they would have died before anyone would have a memory of them.
But there was a time when only MKP could split.
For everything we now take for granted in SC2 there was a time when it was "too hard" "impossible" "can't be done" and every-time those preconceptions were shattered by someone stupid enough to work on it.
I'm still completely lost about what you are talking about with regards to those statistics. They are over a year old and from a different game.
On June 21 2013 03:16 IPA wrote: Hey Guys. How about we don't freak out like a bunch of children, play some ladder games, watch some professional play, and take stock of the change with cool heads in a few weeks.
Or you could continue with knee-jerk reactions fueled by emotion rather than experience or facts.
As Z, looking forward to see how the match up changes.
Cock jerking not allowed at work, so knee jerking will have to suffice
On June 21 2013 03:16 IPA wrote: Hey Guys. How about we don't freak out like a bunch of children, play some ladder games, watch some professional play, and take stock of the change with cool heads in a few weeks.
Or you could continue with knee-jerk reactions fueled by emotion rather than experience or facts.
As Z, looking forward to see how the match up changes.
too late, thread has devolved into TvP balance whine (irrelevant of the change).
The reason people are disputing what Dwf (who I actually respect a lot when it comes to balance discussions based on his usual posts) said is because he lamented that now he's going to have Zealots in his main all the time. Um, what? This upgrade changes absolutely nothing about lategame PvT, since you'd already have enough money to get the speed upgrade (and should do so, even if you initially opened Templar you need to eventually add a Robo Bay). Furthermore, in the phase of the game that this change actually affects, Protoss doesn't really have a large number of Gateways, because mass Gateway openings that sacrifice tech and upgrades for Gateway units are either all-ins or metagame strategies. You cannot open with a large number of Gateways and use those Gateways for warp-in harassment with a WP without foregoing any sort of standing army, reasonably timed upgrades, and tech.
Standard PvT, be it Templar or Colossus based (or even Stargate) simply doesn't have the infrastructure to warp 10 Zealots into a Terran main from a WP. If it's just 4-6 Zealots, then it's the exact same as it was pre-patch, but the WP is a little harder to kill. Well, that doesn't really matter because top Terran players usually either make Turrets or leave small numbers of bio at expansions to deal with lategame Zealot/DT warp-ins, regardless of whether they come from a WP. In the early game, these sorts of warp-ins simply cannot be maintained without sacrificing everything else, particularly the ability to take a third base.
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
On June 21 2013 03:23 Shiori wrote: The reason people are disputing what Dwf (who I actually respect a lot when it comes to balance discussions based on his usual posts) said is because he lamented that now he's going to have Zealots in his main all the time. Um, what? This upgrade changes absolutely nothing about lategame PvT, since you'd already have enough money to get the speed upgrade (and should do so, even if you initially opened Templar you need to eventually add a Robo Bay). Furthermore, in the phase of the game that this change actually affects, Protoss doesn't really have a large number of Gateways, because mass Gateway openings that sacrifice tech and upgrades for Gateway units are either all-ins or metagame strategies. You cannot open with a large number of Gateways and use those Gateways for warp-in harassment with a WP without foregoing any sort of standing army, reasonably timed upgrades, and tech.
Standard PvT, be it Templar or Colossus based (or even Stargate) simply doesn't have the infrastructure to warp 10 Zealots into a Terran main from a WP. If it's just 4-6 Zealots, then it's the exact same as it was pre-patch, but the WP is a little harder to kill. Well, that doesn't really matter because top Terran players usually either make Turrets or leave small numbers of bio at expansions to deal with lategame Zealot/DT warp-ins, regardless of whether they come from a WP. In the early game, these sorts of warp-ins simply cannot be maintained without sacrificing everything else, particularly the ability to take a third base.
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
so many tears in this thread. why dont you guys play out the patch first before theory crafting about balance? remember when skytoss was super imba? medivac speed? reapers? grow up, honestly.
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
No, what he is saying is that you can't go like "herp derp look at pvt! Korean terrans owning foreign protosses!'
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
? No, you didn't get it at all. I am saying that Mvp winning inferior players cannot be used to state that "TvP is Terran favoured". I don't know, it's common sense. When arguing about balance, you want opponents of roughly similar skill, it's logical. If the skill gap is too wide, you can't deduce anything (unless inferior players regularly win superior opponents, for example at the end of WoL in ZvX).
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
Because 2 players does not make a metagame...
Yeah, but he threw out an entire region.
"Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance."
I wasn't aware you could just declare an entire region unlucky and just ignore it.
there are historically very little high result capable protoss in Europe. Winrates in high tourneys dont tell anything about balance, there was not a single unexpected dropout of an toss in Eu.
Naniwa is a hype guy, sometimes good, but mostly plays like shit because of his emo-attitude. Titan is stable but not top. The macro toss Hasuobs, or socke aren't absolute top too. Protoss tourneywinners are nearly non existent in EU, because there are always some exceptional players on Zerg or Terran, that are just plain better than those few good toss. Tod has become very good lateley, BK is improving a lot ( but watching his WCS games shows, that he is a one trick poney with very little adaption skills), Feast is sometimes impressive, Pandatank i think could be top if he wouldnt play from southafrica, his play is very impressive and i think he could be the toss tourney winner guy., but the rest just arent an even match for guys like Lucifron / dimaga / forgg, players that have been around and winning tourneys since like forever. There is no toss on this level, and even prismspeed 5 from, warpgate tech with no research wouldnt change that.
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
Because 2 players does not make a metagame...
Yeah, but he threw out an entire region.
"Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance."
I wasn't aware you could just declare an entire region unlucky and just ignore it.
Because that "region" was Thorzain winning two games, Happy winning one game, and MVP winning the rest.
You can't say that EU's PvT is bad when only 1 player made it bad.
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
? No, you didn't get it at all. I am saying that Mvp winning inferior players cannot be used to state that "TvP is Terran favoured". I don't know, it's common sense. When arguing about balance, you want opponents of roughly similar skill, it's logical. If the skill gap is too wide, you can't deduce anything (unless inferior players regularly win superior opponents, for example at the end of WoL in ZvX).
I get where you are coming from, but it is one step away from the classic Idra argument of "This player is supposed to win". I am looking at the rest of that list and there are some very good protoss players on it as well.
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
Because 2 players does not make a metagame...
Yeah, but he threw out an entire region.
"Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance."
I wasn't aware you could just declare an entire region unlucky and just ignore it.
Because that "region" was Thorzain winning two games, Happy winning one game, and MVP winning the rest.
You can't say that EU's PvT is bad when only 1 player made it bad.
So because MVP and Innovation exist, we can't really use any data from Korea or EU, is what you are saying? Because as long as they are doing well, they are going to eliminate a lot of players from all races.
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
? No, you didn't get it at all. I am saying that Mvp winning inferior players cannot be used to state that "TvP is Terran favoured". I don't know, it's common sense. When arguing about balance, you want opponents of roughly similar skill, it's logical. If the skill gap is too wide, you can't deduce anything (unless inferior players regularly win superior opponents, for example at the end of WoL in ZvX).
Well it's a chicken or egg type of thing. Because how can you tell if 2 players are of equal skill if the races are not balanced? Maybe one race is significantly stronger and they only appear of similar level because of imbalance. Or, how can you tell if the races are balanced, if all the skilled people are playing one race?
So there has to be some middle ground between 35% PvT at WCS Europe and "throw out all the results because MVP"
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
Any Terran upset? No, that's right. Protoss had a bad season on WCS Europe, which is irrelevant for balance. Move on.
Wait, you can argue like this? You can just say: "These players was good, so he should have one. There for, all data associated with this is irrelevant"? So can I just ignore all data coming out of Korea because all the players are good and they should all win?
? No, you didn't get it at all. I am saying that Mvp winning inferior players cannot be used to state that "TvP is Terran favoured". I don't know, it's common sense. When arguing about balance, you want opponents of roughly similar skill, it's logical. If the skill gap is too wide, you can't deduce anything (unless inferior players regularly win superior opponents, for example at the end of WoL in ZvX).
Well it's a chicken or egg type of thing. Because how can you tell if 2 players are of equal skill if the races are not balanced? Maybe one race is significantly stronger and they only appear of similar level because of imbalance. Or, how can you tell if the races are balanced, if all the skilled people are playing one race?
So there has to be some middle ground between 35% PvT at WCS Europe and "throw out all the results because MVP"
The record is 14-16 if you remove MVP from the equation.
On June 21 2013 03:41 Plansix wrote: I get where you are coming from, but it is one step away from the classic Idra argument of "This player is supposed to win". I am looking at the rest of that list and there are some very good protoss players on it as well.
I am not saying the Protoss players were bad. One player happened to be one league above the rest, which skews the results, that's all. I don't know, let's say we introduce Flash in WCS America and he plays 10 TvZ on the 35 TvZ played during the season, the results will likely be skewed as well.
On June 21 2013 03:44 DinoMight wrote: Well it's a chicken or egg type of thing. Because how can you tell if 2 players are of equal skill if the races are not balanced? Maybe one race is significantly stronger and they only appear of similar level because of imbalance. Or, how can you tell if the races are balanced, if all the skilled people are playing one race?
Agree. But in this case, I don't think you can reasonably argue that Mvp should just have a 50% probability to win a bo3 against Siw, Socke or SaSe. Historically and currently, he's by far better, as evidenced by the fact he the won WCS Europe and made it to the semi-finals on the global event afterwards.
On June 21 2013 03:41 Plansix wrote: I get where you are coming from, but it is one step away from the classic Idra argument of "This player is supposed to win". I am looking at the rest of that list and there are some very good protoss players on it as well.
I am not saying the Protoss players were bad. One player happened to be one league above the rest, which skews the results, that's all. I don't know, let's say we introduce Flash in WCS America and he plays 10 TvZ on the 35 TvZ played during the season, the results will likely be skewed as well.
Well then all the results from WCS are worthless. Innovation is in KR, MVP is in EU and NA players don't matter because its NA and filled with Korean B teamers. None of it matters because of the highly skilled(or not skilled) players involved in each region. The data invalidates itself by existing.
This is the problem that most protoss players have. We can be losing with a 35% win rate and terrans will just point to MVP and say its all ok. We can be the least winning race in all of SC2, but a single buff comes out that increased the speed of a non-attacking unit slightly and terran world comes to an end.
And the whole time, Zerg just sit there say "Oh the WP, I remember those. They hold immortals, right?"
Win ratios are going to be difficult to calculate because who do you exclude etc. etc.. but I think if you look at major tournament wins in all regions you will find that T and Z have a lot more than P.
Aside from HerO winning WCS America and then getting ROFLSTOMPED shortly thereafter, I don't remember Protoss winning much. It's been mostly T and Z.
EDIT - Oh and Stardust won Dreamhack. But otherwise I can't think of last event a Protoss won.
On June 21 2013 03:54 Plansix wrote: Well then all the results from WCS are worthless. Innovation is in KR, MVP is in EU and NA players don't matter because its NA and filled with Korean B teamers. None of it matters because of the highly skilled(or not skilled) players involved in each region.
We don't have to ask this question for WCS Kr because, if I counted right, TvP was 15-15 in maps at Code S last season; and anyway, there are some Protoss who can win Bogus in a BO3 (Rain, sOs, PartinG I presume; perhaps others as well, I'm not a Protoss specialist), so we're not really in a "one player above the rest" configuration for Korea. I don't know for WCS America.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
I'm sure if I spent a week learning how to work towards a zealot archon composition I could basically a-move my way to the same level I'm at at Terran, it's just a few letters, get over it.
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
I'm sure if I spent a week learning how to work towards a zealot archon composition I could basically a-move my way to the same level I'm at at Terran, it's just a few letters, get over it.
And I am sure if I spent a week learning some dumb hellbat all in, I could drop my way to the same level I am right now. What is your point?
On June 21 2013 02:06 Wingblade wrote: Countless games? You cited two, and two horrible examples at that. sOs DIDN'T fight with pure gate units. Yes having storm helped to an extent, but writing "countless games in which Protoss plays on pure gate units" after citing a game where that is just flat wrong is ignorant and silly.
I said "with zero robo fighting unit" for the sOs example. Other instances? OK. ForGG vs sOs, Neo Planet S, WCS global finals: 13'20 robo, 14'30 robobay i. e. pure gates until at least 15'. Second game from that series, Bel'shir Vestige: 12'30 robo, 14'20 robobay. Can't you just watch top players from your race and know by yourself that opening Templars into late Colossi (Immortals aren't even mandatory, zeal/archons/storm can work on its own) is perfectly viable?
On June 21 2013 02:45 Wingblade wrote: Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe.
Ah yes, the famous proof of "imbalance" in which the 35% is based on a glorious 37 games sample size (14-23 according to Liquipedia), including Mvp having 8 wins against much inferior Protoss. OK. Please watch the following list and tell me some of the results are surprising?
The buff is amazing. It a niche buff that was really only used once in a blue moon to snipe a spire or something and made it something I can use every game, defensively (immortal pickups vs roach timings) and offensively with drops and push.
On June 21 2013 03:54 Plansix wrote: Well then all the results from WCS are worthless. Innovation is in KR, MVP is in EU and NA players don't matter because its NA and filled with Korean B teamers. None of it matters because of the highly skilled(or not skilled) players involved in each region.
We don't have to ask this question for WCS Kr because, if I counted right, TvP was 15-15 in maps at Code S last season; and anyway, there are some Protoss who can win Bogus in a BO3 (Rain, sOs, PartinG I presume; perhaps others as well, I'm not a Protoss specialist), so we're not really in a "one player above the rest" configuration for Korea. I don't know for WCS America.
So what is your explanation for Challenger League in Europe being massively Terran favored? Mvp didn't play in Challenger.
It's very good news that protoss can finally do proper harass that can poke and will require micromanagement because nowadays with very cheap DT and oracles their harass capability is very dumb with no micro and lead to poor wins.
They should put the cost to dark shrine at the WOL cost to counter balance the WP buff.
Go go protoss just harass in a skilled way for change
On June 21 2013 04:39 SSVnormandy wrote: It's very good news that protoss can finally do proper harass that can poke and will require micromanagement because nowadays with very cheap DT and oracles their harass capability is very dumb with no micro and lead to poor wins.
They should put the cost to dark shrine at the WOL cost to counter balance the WP buff.
Go go protoss just harass in a skilled way for change
how exactly is warping in zealots or DTs and forgetting about them at an earlier timing more skillful harass?
On June 20 2013 07:58 AngrySalmon wrote: As a top 5 platinum league, i could do with this buff.. for too long has swarm hosts lurked around at my door steps and i not being able to get out to expand.. A fast warp prism should do the trick!
Was there a point in telling us that you're top 5 plat?
On June 21 2013 03:54 Plansix wrote: Well then all the results from WCS are worthless. Innovation is in KR, MVP is in EU and NA players don't matter because its NA and filled with Korean B teamers. None of it matters because of the highly skilled(or not skilled) players involved in each region.
We don't have to ask this question for WCS Kr because, if I counted right, TvP was 15-15 in maps at Code S last season; and anyway, there are some Protoss who can win Bogus in a BO3 (Rain, sOs, PartinG I presume; perhaps others as well, I'm not a Protoss specialist), so we're not really in a "one player above the rest" configuration for Korea. I don't know for WCS America.
So what is your explanation for Challenger League in Europe being massively Terran favored? Mvp didn't play in Challenger.
your counterargument to his example using top level play is a qualifiers round?
On June 21 2013 03:54 Plansix wrote: Well then all the results from WCS are worthless. Innovation is in KR, MVP is in EU and NA players don't matter because its NA and filled with Korean B teamers. None of it matters because of the highly skilled(or not skilled) players involved in each region.
We don't have to ask this question for WCS Kr because, if I counted right, TvP was 15-15 in maps at Code S last season; and anyway, there are some Protoss who can win Bogus in a BO3 (Rain, sOs, PartinG I presume; perhaps others as well, I'm not a Protoss specialist), so we're not really in a "one player above the rest" configuration for Korea. I don't know for WCS America.
So what is your explanation for Challenger League in Europe being massively Terran favored? Mvp didn't play in Challenger.
your counterargument to his example using top level play is a qualifiers round?
Cherry picking data is the best way to win any argument.
On June 21 2013 03:54 Plansix wrote: Well then all the results from WCS are worthless. Innovation is in KR, MVP is in EU and NA players don't matter because its NA and filled with Korean B teamers. None of it matters because of the highly skilled(or not skilled) players involved in each region.
We don't have to ask this question for WCS Kr because, if I counted right, TvP was 15-15 in maps at Code S last season; and anyway, there are some Protoss who can win Bogus in a BO3 (Rain, sOs, PartinG I presume; perhaps others as well, I'm not a Protoss specialist), so we're not really in a "one player above the rest" configuration for Korea. I don't know for WCS America.
So what is your explanation for Challenger League in Europe being massively Terran favored? Mvp didn't play in Challenger.
your counterargument to his example using top level play is a qualifiers round?
Cherry picking data is the best way to win any argument.
Fine, how about I cherry pick this factoid.
We have no empirical data on the effects of this buff and hence cannot make conclusions until top level play has had a chance to push the boundaries of its possibilities further.
Anyone know when the patch is live on EU? I usually play on EU but I left my SC2 on NA last time I played and now I'm getting the client mismatch error.
On June 21 2013 03:54 Plansix wrote: Well then all the results from WCS are worthless. Innovation is in KR, MVP is in EU and NA players don't matter because its NA and filled with Korean B teamers. None of it matters because of the highly skilled(or not skilled) players involved in each region.
We don't have to ask this question for WCS Kr because, if I counted right, TvP was 15-15 in maps at Code S last season; and anyway, there are some Protoss who can win Bogus in a BO3 (Rain, sOs, PartinG I presume; perhaps others as well, I'm not a Protoss specialist), so we're not really in a "one player above the rest" configuration for Korea. I don't know for WCS America.
So what is your explanation for Challenger League in Europe being massively Terran favored? Mvp didn't play in Challenger.
your counterargument to his example using top level play is a qualifiers round?
Cherry picking data is the best way to win any argument.
Fine, how about I cherry pick this factoid.
We have no empirical data on the effects of this buff and hence cannot make conclusions until top level play has had a chance to push the boundaries of its possibilities further.
Great, but the patch is live so there is little to discuss. The WP now moves as fast as a stalker, so I am sure the world for terrans will now end.
i think they buffed it too much too fast, should have started with a smaller buff and see how things go first, no terran unit can catch up to warp prism and they can fly past a turret now, at least i think a turret should stop them.
On June 21 2013 05:21 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think they buffed it too much too fast, should have started with a smaller buff and see how things go first, no terran unit can catch up to warp prism and they can fly past a turret now, at least i think a turret should stop them.
200 minerals for such a utility/unit is crazzzzy.
And still gets cored by a single widow mine and mauled by a couple turret shots.
Also, protoss units can't catch it either unless we go stargate or get blink.
On June 21 2013 05:21 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think they buffed it too much too fast, should have started with a smaller buff and see how things go first, no terran unit can catch up to warp prism and they can fly past a turret now, at least i think a turret should stop them.
200 minerals for such a utility/unit is crazzzzy.
Terrans having to defend their base as much as Protoss have to defend theirs is not a bad thing....
On June 21 2013 05:27 nichan wrote: This terrans cry a lot. ( a turret can't stop the warp prism now ) only the medibacks should be that powerfull
whats more powerful 1 medivac or 1 warp prism that can warp in dts/zealots
id rather have a flying healing unit
and is rather have units that auto regen
its like you guys haven't even played it yet, i have played 4 games against it so far with a protoss friend and he even thinks its too much, it can zip in warp 2 dts and get to your other expo in seconds, hard to deal with.
On June 21 2013 05:27 nichan wrote: This terrans cry a lot. ( a turret can't stop the warp prism now ) only the medibacks should be that powerfull
whats more powerful 1 medivac or 1 warp prism that can warp in dts/zealots
id rather have a flying healing unit
and is rather have units that auto regen
its like you guys haven't even played it yet, i have played 4 games against it so far with a protoss friend and he even thinks its too much, it can zip in warp 2 dts and get to your other expo in seconds, hard to deal with.
You should play zerg, I hear they do that.
And I don't know what it would be like to have a super fast unit dropping things in and around my mineral line that require detection for me to remove. Or to have them drop slow moving melee units that have AOEs attached, killing my workers and stuff.
On June 21 2013 05:27 nichan wrote: This terrans cry a lot. ( a turret can't stop the warp prism now ) only the medibacks should be that powerfull
whats more powerful 1 medivac or 1 warp prism that can warp in dts/zealots
id rather have a flying healing unit
and is rather have units that auto regen
its like you guys haven't even played it yet, i have played 4 games against it so far with a protoss friend and he even thinks its too much, it can zip in warp 2 dts and get to your other expo in seconds, hard to deal with.
This isn't even discussion about the patch anymore it protosses and terrans bitching about which race is harder. Cmon TL show some class, and actually discuss games you've had that were influenced by the patch. I think if anything this will more just be like the first infestor buff, which didn't make it THAT much better, it just encouraged people to use it.
On June 21 2013 05:41 DBS wrote: This isn't even discussion about the patch anymore it protosses and terrans bitching about which race is harder. Cmon TL show some class, and actually discuss games you've had that were influenced by the patch. I think if anything this will more just be like the first infestor buff, which didn't make it THAT much better, it just encouraged people to use it.
Or like the first Warp Prism buff, 20 extra shields that made it lol unkillable.... yeah....
On June 21 2013 05:21 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think they buffed it too much too fast, should have started with a smaller buff and see how things go first, no terran unit can catch up to warp prism and they can fly past a turret now, at least i think a turret should stop them.
200 minerals for such a utility/unit is crazzzzy.
yeah, it's cheap, but you can't mass Warp prism like medivacs/overlords, so being cheap is not as big of a deal.
they cost 2 supply and building more than 2 will not make you that much better...
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
I agree. Nice fix for that, which also would help viking getting to Tempests, add boost ability to the viking.
This is ridiculous. Everyone's jumping in saying it's faster then x now.. Guess what? Speedvacs are faster then all that too and again, guess what? Players managed to defend well by adapting. Everyone's missing the point where the warp prism has to turn into warp mode which takes a good 1.5 seconds to transform, and guess what? They're immobile and low hp. If you react properly or even have a few turrets/spores it'll die fast. And if you even have any type of defence then it'll die before warp prism can transform and the units will be canceled mid-warp. It honestly confuses me how people are saying it's better then a medivac.
If you die from a mass warp-in you would of died from it prior to the patch anyways. Players will adapt to this without a problem.
Yes, 14-23 in Premier League (16-25* actually upon couting again). Feel free to list the results which shock you in the Challenger League given the names involved; from a quick read I see no outstanding upset.
On June 21 2013 06:01 Thieving Magpie wrote: This thread was better when it was an argument about Unit strength in relation to tech progression over time...
It was better when people weren't posting absolute nonsense.
Plenty of good posts here, including yourself but buried among a sea of barely comprehensible whine. Is the patch live yet btw? Looking forward to winning every game with a slightly faster Warp Prism.
I do see some cool applications, but nothing massively earth-shattering. Makes cute play like Seed-style warp prism with 4 stalkers to harass in the early game in PvZ/clear creep a little easier to pull off.
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Well, then what's the point of those who suggest "Let's wait and see first"? They talk as if the changes are temporal. (at least you get such an impression) Maybe you should tell that crowd to shut up.
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Queens.
Yes, queens had all the signs of needing another reiteration, but but, no acknowledgement from blizzard
On June 20 2013 20:22 Jaded. wrote: SoS vs maru pretty much demonstrates how this isn't really going to affect anything. SoS lost because he invested units into harassing Maru's main, which did almost nothing, instead of making units to defend his 3rd base against the inevitable 14 min push. He didn't have enough units to defend the third because of the lackluster harass. After he lost the 3rd it was basically over he wasn't going to be able to match terrans production and maru ran him over a little later. Making the harass a little faster isn't going to change the fact that it can be cleaned up by rallied marine/marauders.
Remove warpgate, buff gateway units, that is all.
Or you can just play Terran. Warp Gates are what defines protoss. What's the difference between T & P if you buff Gateway units and remove Warp Gates, other than graphics?
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Well, then what's the point of those who suggest "Let's wait and see first"? They talk as if the changes are temporal. (at least you get such an impression) Maybe you should tell that crowd to shut up.
Because complaining the second you see a patch makes you look like you're just whining. If some weeks from now it's clearly not a good patch, then say that it's a bad patch. Waiting to see how something turns out is just common sense. It's not like if some people on here start complaining instantly, Blizzard's going to just revoke it.
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Queens.
Does anyone actually think that queens having 5 range instead of 3 is an issue right now?
On June 21 2013 10:38 Sabu113 wrote: Terran players bitching is a bit amusing with some of the rather... interesting design/balance choices blizzard made for the most successful race.
Terran clearly isn't the most successful race at the moment.
As a zerg so far, this patch hasn't been bad. I'm already seeing warp prism play, but it only makes the prism a lil harder to kill. A couple of spores for static D, and you're good to go :o
On June 21 2013 10:38 Sabu113 wrote: Terran players bitching is a bit amusing with some of the rather... interesting design/balance choices blizzard made for the most successful race.
Most successful should mean nothing as long as the end results is balanced, which it appears to be.
On June 21 2013 10:43 Shin_Gouki wrote: As a zerg so far, this patch hasn't been bad. I'm already seeing warp prism play, but it only makes the prism a lil harder to kill. A couple of spores for static D, and you're good to go :o
Yes, that's the whole point. >_<
XvP need to learn to put at least one forward AA site (turret/spore/cannon) on their blind side past the mid-game. Further improving the state of the game for more action.
Protoss can now do mid-game doom drops too! Blink all-in reinforced by WP gogogo!
Edit:EMERGHERD, 10,000th post!!! *runs around room*
On June 21 2013 10:38 Sabu113 wrote: Terran players bitching is a bit amusing with some of the rather... interesting design/balance choices blizzard made for the most successful race.
Most successful should mean nothing as long as the end results is balanced, which it appears to be.
WoL was certainly not balanced for long stretches of time and it's still early doors. Generally speaking there a lot of overly simplistic mantras about waiting and buffing everything.
The patch was granted because finally blizz thought that protoss was underperforming so no things weren't fantastic
If you wanted to criticize design nexus cannon and the boost would be the first things to look at. Anyway don't want to take away too much of Rabiator's shtick. Just gonna dream for the day some inde developers decide to do an rts.
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Queens.
Does anyone actually think that queens having 5 range instead of 3 is an issue right now?
I believe we're talking about the patchzerg era, where the reasonable amount of balance was utterly upset and WoL left in a state of insane imbalance for it's last 6 months. 6 months is pretty significant (about a quarter to a fifth of WoL's lifespan) and from that we can see that Blizzard really doesn't have a good track record for responding fast.
On June 21 2013 10:43 Shin_Gouki wrote: As a zerg so far, this patch hasn't been bad. I'm already seeing warp prism play, but it only makes the prism a lil harder to kill. A couple of spores for static D, and you're good to go :o
Yes, that's the whole point. >_<
XvP need to learn to put at least one forward AA site (turret/spore/cannon) on their blind side past the mid-game. Further improving the state of the game for more action.
Protoss can now do mid-game doom drops too! Blink all-in reinforced by WP gogogo!
Edit:EMERGHERD, 10,000th post!!! *runs around room*
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Rofl 30 production facilities. i guess we talkin 40 minutes in the game here. your argument is now invalid since everyone will have the warp prism speed at that point. This change doesn't even affect what you are talking about.
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Queens.
Does anyone actually think that queens having 5 range instead of 3 is an issue right now?
Well in WOL terran had crappy harass options in the early game vs zerg cause mass queens completely shut them down in HOTS terran has reapers and widow mines which are actually decent at harassing zerg so the queen range doesn't really matter in HOTS
For every T complaining about defending the new warp prism... have you played TvT? Because you can't just defend drops with 1 viking there either... so I don't know why you expect to defend P drops with minimum effort.
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Queens.
Does anyone actually think that queens having 5 range instead of 3 is an issue right now?
I believe we're talking about the patchzerg era, where the reasonable amount of balance was utterly upset and WoL left in a state of insane imbalance for it's last 6 months. 6 months is pretty significant (about a quarter to a fifth of WoL's lifespan) and from that we can see that Blizzard really doesn't have a good track record for responding fast.
That was mostly because of infestors, not queens. Sure, the queens allowed them to more safely get to that point, but with infestors like they are now it wouldn't have been such an issue.
If anything, I feel like toss need a late game buff that doesn't make the deathball stronger. This has no effect whatsoever, only makes warp prism all ins better. Imo a 50/50 or 25/25 upgrade cost for warp prism speed would be better
On June 21 2013 10:38 Sabu113 wrote: Terran players bitching is a bit amusing with some of the rather... interesting design/balance choices blizzard made for the most successful race.
Terran clearly isn't the most successful race at the moment.
Based on... what? Nothing?
Because Aliguac shows Terran having a win rate of 53% versus Protoss and 54.4% versus Zerg. In fact, since HOTS was released, they haven't been below 50% in either indicator.
In fact, all of the same indicators that people like Ver pointed to (in his Lings of Liberty thread) that showed how good Zerg was at the end of WOL (despite Terran dominating the first 3/4's of WOL) now point to Terran doing the best.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
The winrate in professional starcraft for PvT is actually quite even, with a slight protoss favor. Here is the winrates for may No need to specifically look at europe as a whole. We need to look at the whole scene to get a better person.
Also, just stating that something is a "logical fallacy" doesn't mean it's not correct. It's something I notice a lot on the internet (especially reddit / internet atheists) that love to spout these catch-phrases as if invoking one or two words completely invalidates the argument. His mentioning of the fact that the dwf is GM is relevant because that itself lends to the fact that he is skilled enough to be in gm and have enough knowledge of the match-up (in this case PvT) to even compete with the pros on ladder.
On June 21 2013 10:38 Sabu113 wrote: Terran players bitching is a bit amusing with some of the rather... interesting design/balance choices blizzard made for the most successful race.
Terran clearly isn't the most successful race at the moment.
Based on... what? Nothing?
Because Aliguac shows Terran having a win rate of 53% versus Protoss and 54.4% versus Zerg. In fact, since HOTS was released, they haven't been below 50% in either indicator.
In fact, all of the same indicators that people like Ver pointed to (in his Lings of Liberty thread) that showed how good Zerg was at the end of WOL (despite Terran dominating the first 3/4's of the game) now point to Terran doing the best.
Ok, but how much of that is because of a select few terrans like Flash and Innovation, or players like MVP and MMA beating a bunch of foreigners? When you look at the scene in Korea:
Zerg always the most represented in GSL/OSL, including representing 50% of the last GSL Ro8, and after placement matches, 4 of the top 6 5 straight zerg winners in GSL Flash and Innovation are the only terrans in the top 10 of most wins in Proleague (only 4 in the top 20 and 6 in the top 30)
So yes, a few terrans are doing well, but to say that as a race they're the most successful is ridiculous. It's like in Brood War when Flash was winning everything and people were saying that terran was OP, but if it weren't for him, zerg would have won something like 75% of the Starleagues in that time period.
On June 21 2013 10:38 Sabu113 wrote: Terran players bitching is a bit amusing with some of the rather... interesting design/balance choices blizzard made for the most successful race.
Terran clearly isn't the most successful race at the moment.
Based on... what? Nothing?
Because Aliguac shows Terran having a win rate of 53% versus Protoss and 54.4% versus Zerg. In fact, since HOTS was released, they haven't been below 50% in either indicator.
In fact, all of the same indicators that people like Ver pointed to (in his Lings of Liberty thread) that showed how good Zerg was at the end of WOL (despite Terran dominating the first 3/4's of the game) now point to Terran doing the best.
Ok, but how much of that is because of a select few terrans like Flash and Innovation, or players like MVP and MMA beating a bunch of foreigners? When you look at the scene in Korea:
Zerg always the most represented in GSL/OSL, including representing 50% of the last GSL Ro8, and after placement matches, 4 of the top 6 5 straight zerg winners in GSL Flash and Innovation are the only terrans in the top 10 of most wins in Proleague (only 4 in the top 20 and 6 in the top 30)
So yes, a few terrans are doing well, but to say that as a race they're the most successful is ridiculous. It's like in Brood War when Flash was winning everything and people were saying that terran was OP, but if it weren't for him, zerg would have won something like 75% of the Starleagues in that time period.
The problem is not so about balance but about what game do we want.
Do we want a fast game with lot of action everywhere, where player's skill shine in multitasking and macroing, are do we want a turtling game where the difference between a good and a bad player is about spotting drops and defending them ?
Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
tried some 4 gate warp prism harass sentry drop + zealot warp in. Adding 2 gates. Did some mining time harass and escaped with my 4 sentries :D weeeee poor scvs trapped in forcefields while zealots slaughter them can also fight small marine marauder army :D
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
On June 20 2013 21:01 GhostOwl wrote: Okay, for all the Terran players whining, how about this?
Warp Prism gets medivac boost skill, and Medivac loses the skill. In return, Medivac gain the tiny speed boost granted by this patch.
See what Protoss and Zerg players have to deal with? Or are you going to keep complaining until Zealots and Zerglings each do only 1 damage to marines?
The point is each race has its advantages. Terran bio has mobility, toss has very strong 1a and zeros have Econ. Give toss strong mobility as well and it just doesn't sit right. Though I don't think this patch does that much because unless they also have a speed upgrade late game that makes them even faster than before
Isn't the mobility more the Zergs advantage? And why the fuck are people keep saying that Protoss is a 1a race? I don't get that, since protoss has alot more casting abilities than, lets say zerg (and i don't wanna say that zerg doesn't require micro). You have to cast guardian shielf, FF, storm, micro your colossi, blink your stalkers,... Does that sound like 1a to you? If yes, you're just ignorant. Come on, we're not in the beta of WoL anymore.
And how exactly does a warp prism speed buff give the race a strong mobility?
You're logic on this topic is just silly and you have such a tunnel vision.
Tbh I've never had a problem with any of the micro you mentioned whenever I've tried playing toss.
That still makes no difference at all, it's still not 1A, what is your point?
I'm sure if I spent a week learning how to work towards a zealot archon composition I could basically a-move my way to the same level I'm at at Terran, it's just a few letters, get over it.
And I am sure if I spent a week learning some dumb hellbat all in, I could drop my way to the same level I am right now. What is your point?
That wasn't aimed at you, don't get all antsy about it, this wasn't me saying toss was op.
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
The winrate in professional starcraft for PvT is actually quite even, with a slight protoss favor. Here is the winrates for may No need to specifically look at europe as a whole. We need to look at the whole scene to get a better person.
Also, just stating that something is a "logical fallacy" doesn't mean it's not correct. It's something I notice a lot on the internet (especially reddit / internet atheists) that love to spout these catch-phrases as if invoking one or two words completely invalidates the argument. His mentioning of the fact that the dwf is GM is relevant because that itself lends to the fact that he is skilled enough to be in gm and have enough knowledge of the match-up (in this case PvT) to even compete with the pros on ladder.
When Terran couldn't win ANYTHING outside of Korea for much of WoL, people just laughed it off saying Foreign terrans sucked and only the highest level of competition matters (Korea). So having dealt with that for years, I dunno why EU Challenger league should have any relevance in balance discussions.
However, Not saying it's going to be a game breaking patch or anything, was just watching HerO play a PvP and there were warp prisms flying around everywhere and basically every protoss unit in the game was made, looked pretty fun to watch!
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I predicted the same. Before the patch, protoss was the strongest in the early game, and in the endgame. Terran shined in the midgame. What blizzard did with this buff, is give protoss a stronger midgame, and even a stronger early game (some prism allins are really strong).
I really wonder how terrans will adapt to this. To me this feels exactly like the queenbuff. People don't realise yet how big it is, but in 2 weeks you will understand .
And if you read people's comments about terran, you would think they are doing really well. Well, only flash and innovation are really doing well. Other terrans are doing okay, but not so good that they can handle a buff to the other races or a nerf on their own race. 1 change can bring us back to wol terran, and we know how that ended. It's strange how history repeats itself: protoss and zerg players whine about terran --> blizzard nerfs terran / buffs the other races --> WOL becomes boring and the map is painted red (zerg).
On June 21 2013 02:38 Snowbear wrote: If you read all these complains from protoss players about pvt, you would think the matchup is terran favoured. Meanwhile in tournaments...
And @ those people arguing with TheDwf: the guy is grandmaster and has much more game knowledge than you..
Meanwhile in tournaments, PvT featured something like a 35 percent winrate in Europe. Oh and there was 1 Protoss top 8 in DH, who won off the back of his one PvZ all-in, and played a single Terran who only had good TvZ(though it seems like every Terran has good TvZ nowadays).
Also, nice logical fallacy = argument from authority.
The winrate in professional starcraft for PvT is actually quite even, with a slight protoss favor. Here is the winrates for may No need to specifically look at europe as a whole. We need to look at the whole scene to get a better person.
Also, just stating that something is a "logical fallacy" doesn't mean it's not correct. It's something I notice a lot on the internet (especially reddit / internet atheists) that love to spout these catch-phrases as if invoking one or two words completely invalidates the argument. His mentioning of the fact that the dwf is GM is relevant because that itself lends to the fact that he is skilled enough to be in gm and have enough knowledge of the match-up (in this case PvT) to even compete with the pros on ladder.
jaeh with p wins in lower rounds winning nothing from ro8 isnt quite "even"
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I predicted the same. Before the patch, protoss was the strongest in the early game, and in the endgame. Terran shined in the midgame. What blizzard did with this buff, is give protoss a stronger midgame, and even a stronger early game (some prism allins are really strong).
I really wonder how terrans will adapt to this. To me this feels exactly like the queenbuff. People don't realise yet how big it is, but in 2 weeks you will understand .
And if you read people's comments about terran, you would think they are doing really well. Well, only flash and innovation are really doing well. Other terrans are doing okay, but not so good that they can handle a buff to the other races or a nerf on their own race. 1 change can bring us back to wol terran, and we know how that ended. It's strange how history repeats itself: protoss and zerg players whine about terran --> blizzard nerfs terran / buffs the other races --> WOL becomes boring and the map is painted red (zerg).
If anything it's going to allow for a better game once the warp prism based all-ins are figured out as late game why should you be allowed as Zerg to not worry about harassment from a Protoss past DT's that walk across the map? You have to defend versus drops against Terran late game and Zerg seem to be doing fine. Terran just need to make turrets and why not bunkers like in TvT versus hellbat drops? I mean.. if it's doable in one matchup, surely it's doable in two?
I think as most of the people who're balance whining doesn't realize that the warp prism isn't the be all and end all, prisms die fast. "A viking can't catch a prism!" well it sure can kill it if the player is paying attention and micros accordingly. Some would say it's an easier defending, or no different then a speedvac drop in TvT.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I predicted the same. Before the patch, protoss was the strongest in the early game, and in the endgame. Terran shined in the midgame. What blizzard did with this buff, is give protoss a stronger midgame, and even a stronger early game (some prism allins are really strong).
I really wonder how terrans will adapt to this. To me this feels exactly like the queenbuff. People don't realise yet how big it is, but in 2 weeks you will understand .
And if you read people's comments about terran, you would think they are doing really well. Well, only flash and innovation are really doing well. Other terrans are doing okay, but not so good that they can handle a buff to the other races or a nerf on their own race. 1 change can bring us back to wol terran, and we know how that ended. It's strange how history repeats itself: protoss and zerg players whine about terran --> blizzard nerfs terran / buffs the other races --> WOL becomes boring and the map is painted red (zerg).
If anything it's going to allow for a better game once the warp prism based all-ins are figured out as late game why should you be allowed as Zerg to not worry about harassment from a Protoss past DT's that walk across the map? You have to defend versus drops against Terran late game and Zerg seem to be doing fine. Terran just need to make turrets and why not bunkers like in TvT versus hellbat drops? I mean.. if it's doable in one matchup, surely it's doable in two?
I think as most of the people who're balance whining doesn't realize that the warp prism isn't the be all and end all, prisms die fast. "A viking can't catch a prism!" well it sure can kill it if the player is paying attention and micros accordingly. Some would say it's an easier defending, or no different then a speedvac drop in TvT.
The problem is that protoss is stronger in the endgame. Atm the tvp winrates are pretty close to 50%. Now let all these terrans put more army and money in defense. Their midgame push will be weaker. Toss can warpin where they want, terran can't attack (hi nexus canon). The game WILL go into lategame. And another problem are upgrades: they cost the same amount for both races, BUT protoss can crono the upgrades, so a protoss should always be ahead in upgrades.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I predicted the same. Before the patch, protoss was the strongest in the early game, and in the endgame. Terran shined in the midgame. What blizzard did with this buff, is give protoss a stronger midgame, and even a stronger early game (some prism allins are really strong).
I really wonder how terrans will adapt to this. To me this feels exactly like the queenbuff. People don't realise yet how big it is, but in 2 weeks you will understand .
And if you read people's comments about terran, you would think they are doing really well. Well, only flash and innovation are really doing well. Other terrans are doing okay, but not so good that they can handle a buff to the other races or a nerf on their own race. 1 change can bring us back to wol terran, and we know how that ended. It's strange how history repeats itself: protoss and zerg players whine about terran --> blizzard nerfs terran / buffs the other races --> WOL becomes boring and the map is painted red (zerg).
If anything it's going to allow for a better game once the warp prism based all-ins are figured out as late game why should you be allowed as Zerg to not worry about harassment from a Protoss past DT's that walk across the map?
This change has no effect whatsoever on the late game.
You have to defend versus drops against Terran late game and Zerg seem to be doing fine. Terran just need to make turrets and why not bunkers like in TvT versus hellbat drops? I mean.. if it's doable in one matchup, surely it's doable in two?
Sorry but that makes no sense. That it is fine to do it in one matchup doesn't automatically mean it would be good in another matchup. Protos does forge FE against zerg, so it also fine to do it in a PvP?
I think as most of the people who're balance whining doesn't realize that the warp prism isn't the be all and end all, prisms die fast. "A viking can't catch a prism!" well it sure can kill it if the player is paying attention and micros accordingly. Some would say it's an easier defending, or no different then a speedvac drop in TvT.
You can micro and pay attention what you want, unless the toss player is really sleeping or managed to get it in a corner you won't kill it with a viking, no matter how much you micro.
Anyway personally I like the idea behind the increase in warp prism speed, but at the same time I am afraid it will lead to even more toss all-ins. Especially something like a sentry drop on high ground, forcefield ramp -> warp in units will become much stronger with higher warp prism speed. So it is yet another all-in you have to prepare for.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I predicted the same. Before the patch, protoss was the strongest in the early game, and in the endgame. Terran shined in the midgame. What blizzard did with this buff, is give protoss a stronger midgame, and even a stronger early game (some prism allins are really strong).
I really wonder how terrans will adapt to this. To me this feels exactly like the queenbuff. People don't realise yet how big it is, but in 2 weeks you will understand .
And if you read people's comments about terran, you would think they are doing really well. Well, only flash and innovation are really doing well. Other terrans are doing okay, but not so good that they can handle a buff to the other races or a nerf on their own race. 1 change can bring us back to wol terran, and we know how that ended. It's strange how history repeats itself: protoss and zerg players whine about terran --> blizzard nerfs terran / buffs the other races --> WOL becomes boring and the map is painted red (zerg).
If anything it's going to allow for a better game once the warp prism based all-ins are figured out as late game why should you be allowed as Zerg to not worry about harassment from a Protoss past DT's that walk across the map?
This change has no effect whatsoever on the late game.
You have to defend versus drops against Terran late game and Zerg seem to be doing fine. Terran just need to make turrets and why not bunkers like in TvT versus hellbat drops? I mean.. if it's doable in one matchup, surely it's doable in two?
Sorry but that makes no sense. That it is fine to do it in one matchup doesn't automatically mean it would be good in another matchup. Protos does forge FE against zerg, so it also fine to do it in a PvP?
I think as most of the people who're balance whining doesn't realize that the warp prism isn't the be all and end all, prisms die fast. "A viking can't catch a prism!" well it sure can kill it if the player is paying attention and micros accordingly. Some would say it's an easier defending, or no different then a speedvac drop in TvT.
You can micro and pay attention what you want, unless the toss player is really sleeping or managed to get it in a corner you won't kill it with a viking, no matter how much you micro.
Anyway personally I like the idea behind the increase in warp prism speed, but at the same time I am afraid it will lead to even more toss all-ins. Especially something like a sentry drop on high ground, forcefield ramp -> warp in units will become much stronger with higher warp prism speed. So it is yet another all-in you have to prepare for.
I wasn't talking about a build order. Players who put bunkers in their mineral lines don't say "I'm going to incorporate this into my build order" without scouting the need for it. It's what? 450 minerals for 2 bunkers and 2 turrets? You can't say it's the same as a build order as it's a reaction.
Obviously one wouldn't chase a warp prism with their viking, but would rather pull it back to a defend-able position and keep an eye out for it.
Also, just a theoretical defense for zerg against a sentry warp-prism all-in, overlord coverage around potential warp-prism paths,a spine and spore at your ramp and your army on you ramp. Spore detects and kills warp prism or forces it to back away from the ramp and the spine can target sentries. Army sitting on the ramp so it can either be pushed forward or back if they're coming into the natural or into the main sectioning off your army in half, each half to defend each base, or just 2 sets of hotkeys in your main/natural.
175 minerals + a bit of map-awareness + your army = all-in defended without over-committing. Add in an 3-4 queen builds and this all-in really shouldn't work against Zerg of high level play.
Obviously one wouldn't chase a warp prism with their viking, but would rather pull it back to a defend-able position and keep an eye out for it.
Yep, however that isn't killing a warp prism.
Sadly terran has no overlords. And early game normally a toss has complete map control (with stalkers being able to kite marines all day, let alone when a MsC is added).
Zerg overlords should have faster unload times to make zerg drops more potent. I think that would be a nice and different change from the other races and kinda fits with zerg being "swarmy"
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Alright terrans. Here's what you do when somebody warps 30 zealots into your base, ok? You lift your buildings and amove to somewhere near the protoss base because he just invested 3000 minerals, a full warpin round and 60 supply into something that isn't his army. Proceed to kill everything. GLHF.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
i think with this buff we should see a nerf in transformation of the wp. It would force the protoss to be aware of his WP like zergs with their sorta drops and terran with the speedvacs (because contrary to popular belief, speedvacs are okay at a professional level according to Blizzard)
Long story short, none of us should worry about "balance" until we are high masters or GM anyways. Learn to macro, micro, and make good decisions and you will always win in lower leagues.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +
=kill before the opponent can react properly
a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats.
Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster, because you drop more stuff that is ready to fight. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend and then potentially to get out with a big chunk of your army OR to then use the Warp-in functionality to finish your opponent.
Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers).
After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built.
On June 21 2013 17:34 DifuntO wrote: First game i played today,TvP on star station,the guy made 2 warp prisms with immortals-zealots.
Very hard to deal with.I somehow stabilized,pulled scvs and won(his macro was kinda bad,at least worse than mine) but holy shit it was annoying.
I wanna see how terrans in homestory deal with warp prism.
Very good point ... you could even use a different unit combination loaded into the shuttles and maybe pull off something like a "snipe drop" where you get 8-12 Stalkers in 2-3 Warp Prisms and then go for the addons of a Terran and get out again. That would be a big pain.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +
=kill before the opponent can react properly
a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats.
Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend.
Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers).
After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built.
You don't have random 1800 minerals in the early game. And if you did, there's a million better ways to spend them. Like taking a third base for example. Or warping in units that will help you defend that third base. Or teching. Or making cannons to protect your third base. Or building more probes. Building a macro nexus to build even more probes. Building forges. Building 18 pylons. What have you. All of the things above will probably work out better for me. There's also a few sarcastic ones in there but I won't tell you which ones they are.
Imma turn into a hipster right here. I've always thought Protoss players never abused warp prisms enough in the late game versus Terran and Zerg (because I'm obviously much more informed than the pros out there), and a successful warp prism drop late game often turns into a complete stomp, especially against Zerg who can have allll their tech killed if its in the same place.
So I hope this change adds to the amount of drop play that Protoss players do, but if it turns out to be too difficult for T or Z to handle or is too strong, you'll find me in my armchair by the fireplace sipping brandy as I chuckle at the noobs who only just realised this.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +
=kill before the opponent can react properly
a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats.
Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend.
Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers).
After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built.
You don't have random 1800 minerals in the early game. And if you did, there's a million better ways to spend them. Like taking a third base for example. Or warping in units that will help you defend that third base. Or teching. Or making cannons to protect your third base. Or building more probes. Building a macro nexus to build even more probes. Building forges. Building 18 pylons. What have you. All of the things above will probably work out better for me. There's also a few sarcastic ones in there but I won't tell you which ones they are.
There is no way for Protoss to "harrass early" except with their specialized units (Oracle, Phoenix) for the job. This stops instantly when the Zerg builds Spore Crawlers and/or maybe a few extra Queens. If you go for the "dozen Zealots" you might be able to continue harrassing while keeping your units reasonably safe ... I have no idea, but maybe some smart Protoss will figure out a build for it ... like that "counter a CC first by building a hatchery in his natural" build which Catz brought up again + Show Spoiler +
but which was really shown to us first by TLO in the TLOwnage at the end of beta
and which has been used in at least one pro match in Korea (against Innovation - unsuccessfully, BUT with several mistakes made by the Zerg ... it was a good start though and had the Terran on the back foot for a while).
The whole point of my "train of thought" is to be open minded and think about new possibilities. It is not an "every day regular build", but in certain cituations if could work ... if the Zerg is - greedy, - likes Zerglings a lot, - does not build preemptive Spore Crawlers and/or - does not build lots of Queens. The bottom line is: It could work because it is something new and thus unforeseen by the opponent ...
----
The most serious of your options is to get a third base up and running, but that will cost a lot of resources simply because you will need at least 800 minerals for a Nexus, a pylon (or two) and a cannon or two at that base, which will leave you with just 1000 minerals worth of Zealots to defend. Not a whole lot. As I said above the point is to potentially GET OUT AGAIN with all your forces without even needing a Mothership Core. The problem of the usual Warp Prism harrass is that you happily warp in tons of stuff and then lose it all if the Zerg simply has more stuff, because you only have space for 4 Zealots in your Warp Prism. If you build more than one Warp Prism you can use your force to attack AND do significant damage AND get out again.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote: [quote] Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote: [quote] speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
The same goes for zerg as well. If a protoss lets a zerg get 12 macro hatches, 135 larva and a huge bank the same things happens. If a terran triple expands and then gets 10+ CCs and sacks half their workers, they just want to sit back and let the mule money come so they can make a bunch of super armies. We can make an endless number of late game situations that just shouldn't happen in normal game.
There is always going to be someone who is in a position where they don't want to attack, depending on the race, map or flow of the game. The same goes for Dota 2, when team gets to a point where they just want to soak in the gold. There are points when a protoss doesn't want to attack a terran in some games. That's not a game flaw, its just all games work when one side can get an advantage.
On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote: [quote] speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring.
While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time.
There is always going to be someone who is in a position where they don't want to attack, depending on the race, map or flow of the game.
Yes but it should be period/timing based. Aka until I get that tech out I don't wanna attack. When I have got my tech out my opponent shouldn't be incentivied to attack untill his economy kicks in or he gets a counter-attack or something like that. This creates a dynamic game.
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring.
While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time.
Trading out armies is a critical and basic part of the game design and balance. Remaxing and trading efficiently are the keys to playing SC2. A lot of the stories of "30 zealots being warped" in are a product of people playing to passively once they get maxed. It is similar if you see someone blind double expand and then you don't attack them and just hope it will work out.
On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote: [quote] speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
This whole thread is getting entirely too silly.
But lets look at it, If a protoss can warp in 30 zealots (in the terrans base) thats 60 supply and 3000 minerals not being used till the warp in. So a protoss at 3000 minerals and 140 supply not to mention the cost of getting 30 warp gates just goes to show the game is way in the late game. At this point it would generally be safe to assume the terran is on 200/200 supply because frankly if the terran isn't at 200/200 and the protoss is at 140 supply with a bank of 3000 and 30 gates, the terran had probabaly already lost earlier on in the game and this is just a killing blow. So assuming the game isnt over we can say the terran has a close to 200/200 army either back home or out on the field. If the army is back at home the terran can go defend it with a 200/200 army vs 60 supply warp in of non aoe units. Or if the terran is out on the field they can basetrade and lift where the terran army will end up facing against a 140/200 protoss army.
This whole thing is off topic and frankly ridiculous. It also has nothing to do with an upgrade to the warp prisms base speed.
By the way some information about vikings vs phase mode.
So in this scenario the terran catches a warp prism in phase mode and uses a viking to attack it. Upon the viking shooting at the phased prism the protoss reacts immediately un-phases and moves away.
If the viking is attack moved, the viking gets 2 free shots on the warp prism before it's out of range. (pre buff it was 3 shots)
If the viking is micro'd (Fires on the prism then moves towards it etc) The viking can get 4 shots before it's out of range. (pre buff it was 5 shots)
It takes 8 shots for 1 viking to kill a warp prism. So 2 vikings micro'd well would almost guarentee the warp prism doesn't escape.
Onto marines
Stimmed marines are faster then the "buffed warp prism". A stimmed marine has 10.5 dps (prisms have 100 shields 100 hull and start without armour).
1 stimmed marine kills a prism in 19.4 seconds (ingame) 2 stimmed marines kills a prism in 9.5 seconds 3 stimmed marines kills a prism in 6.3 seconds 4 stimmed marines kills a prism in 4.76 seconds 5 stimmed marines kills a prism in 3.8 seconds
Scenario A (Blue) the warp prism goes into missile range then moves out. the warp prism was left with 56 hull.
Scenario B (Green) The warp prism fly's past the missile turret and exit's the other side, again the warp prism is left with 56 hull.
56 hull means 2 viking shots would finish it off (until shields regen)
I should probabaly just add this too (i posted it earlier in the thread): A speed comparison based on units you're already used to seeing. Medivac: 2.5 Old prism: 2.5 Banshees: 2.75 NEW PRISM: 2.953 Oracle: 3.375 Speed prism: 3.375 Mutalisk: 4.0 Phoenix: 4.25 Medivac (Boosted) : 4.25
If you have 3000 extra mins to warp in zealots in my base, I'm gonna assume that you have already researched the prism speed upgrade, so I can't really see how the patch makes that whole situation really much worse to handle than before ;D
On June 20 2013 19:08 tropical wrote: Sometimes, especially around the time a new balance patch is released, this community makes me very, very sad. How about we just see how it play's out? I am quit sure it won't break PvT/TvP.
Even though I have no quarrel with this specific patch, but your suggestion is disingenuous. People flip out over balance changes because once introduced they rarely are revoked. (exception: bunkers) "Why not see how it plays out," while a valid point, but talking as if Blizzard will quickly change it back once proved broken is not an honest response.
Again, I don't think this patch is ground-breaking. Hopefully this will help out toss to play more "normal" games with consistency instead of their off-putting cheeses.
When has a balance change been so bad that it's needed to be revoked?
Queens.
Does anyone actually think that queens having 5 range instead of 3 is an issue right now?
On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote: [quote] speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
Ok, I'll say it: if you let a protoss player have 5000 spare minerals and 60 free supply for several in game minutes and then lose to 30 zealots, you deserve to lose.
On June 20 2013 07:04 Brett wrote: [quote] "afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring.
While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time.
Trading out armies is a critical and basic part of the game design and balance. Remaxing and trading efficiently are the keys to playing SC2. A lot of the stories of "30 zealots being warped" in are a product of people playing to passively once they get maxed. It is similar if you see someone blind double expand and then you don't attack them and just hope it will work out.
No, the 30 zealot story can never be an example of a player playing too passively as that implies that the protoss always wins if he for some reason gets too late game with a bank. It can only be an excuse if the opposing player is a lot behind which is more likely to occur when you are playing overaggressively than too passively. If a terran player is playing passively he will be able to afford to mass OC's and sack scvs, which means he will/should always rape the opposing players army, which shouldn't make 30 zealot warp in that problematic. So I don't think the "never let him get there" principle is that relevant in Sc2, but it should be something that game designers should have in in mind when designing units (try to avoid that from being implemented). If anything it might be relevant due to protoss micro being easier than terran micro, however that is a design issue not related to warp tech.
Instead, I think the main problem with Sc2 is that the mobility of the protoss deathball is too high which makes army trading quite inefficient (in many situations). If trading armies/harassing were easier I don't think it would be that big of a problem. In pro games we are actually seing that the turtle style really isn't that much of an issue as players are so good at setting them self up in a position to army trade which reduces the warp tech problem. However, I believe that the game should be fun for lower level players as well, and for them army trading is simply too difficult.
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
Are we again designing the game with the idea of: If you let him get to the lategame you deserve to lose? That's kinda the entire problem WoL had.
If you let anyone sit there for so long that they feel confident that they can dump +3000 minerals into production facilities, you are playing the game wrong. You are better off trading out that army with yours so they need to invest in a new army. You gain nothing by sitting there with your maxed army, waiting.
So if the protoss has 30+ warpates, you are doing something wrong or you should have 30+ raxs(or 20 with 10 with reactors).
You pretty much said you deserve to lose if you allow the toss to get that far. How would it then possibly be a bad idea for protoss to try to get that far and sit happily with a maxed army, waiting? Then they aren't playing it wrong, but they are playing it correct. They have no reason to attack if they get a large advantage by waiting.
Of course you should also have many production facilities, but they can't really warp in directly to the enemies base.
(Btw this is of course all unrelated to this speed change).
Yes I am surprised anyone still think that the "don't let him get there"-concept is good design. As you point it rewards one player for never attacking throughout the entire game which makes the game incredibly boring.
While each race indeed should have different advantages and disadvantages late game, neither race must be superior in terms of mobility ,cost efficiency and production mechancis at the same time.
Trading out armies is a critical and basic part of the game design and balance. Remaxing and trading efficiently are the keys to playing SC2. A lot of the stories of "30 zealots being warped" in are a product of people playing to passively once they get maxed. It is similar if you see someone blind double expand and then you don't attack them and just hope it will work out.
No, the 30 zealot story can never be an example of a player playing too passively as that implies that the protoss always wins if he for some reason gets too late game with a bank. It can only be an excuse if the opposing player is a lot behind which is more likely to occur when you are playing overaggressively than too passively. If a terran player is playing passively he will be able to afford to mass OC's and sack scvs, which means he will/should always rape the opposing players army, which shouldn't make 30 zealot warp in that problematic. So I don't think the "never let him get there" principle is that relevant in Sc2, but it should be something that game designers should have in in mind when designing units (try to avoid that from being implemented). If anything it might be relevant due to protoss micro being easier than terran micro, however that is a design issue not related to warp tech.
Instead, I think the main problem with Sc2 is that the mobility of the protoss deathball is too high which makes army trading quite inefficient (in many situations). If trading armies/harassing were easier I don't think it would be that big of a problem. In pro games we are actually seing that the turtle style really isn't that much of an issue as players are so good at setting them self up in a position to army trade which reduces the warp tech problem. However, I believe that the game should be fun for lower level players as well, and for them army trading is simply too difficult.
Well my response to that is get better at it. I don't do very well against maxed zerg with my protoss army, especially if I have to use storms. I am four levels of terrible and those fights are really stressful and discouraging, but I don't want them to change a thing. If some terran players are afraid of attacking the late game protoss army, I understand, but that a problem they need to look at on their own.
On June 21 2013 23:29 Hider wrote: Instead, I think the main problem with Sc2 is that the mobility of the protoss deathball is too high
Okaaay.. I'm not sure if you're trolling or not.
A problem with the deathball is that movement speeds are a bit too uniform. Would love to have way slower Collosus, and faster speedlots, that way things would fan out naturally a bit and reward players who can control an army with a more divergent mix of move speeds.
Hmm....wouldnt this be difficult to stop? I heard they outrun vikings now...Gotta have some vikings on patrol, is that the only solution to defending zealot harass?
Also FYI, the 60MB patch is mainly for updating Simplified Chinese translations in the campaign map files to prepare for its launch in China next month.
On June 22 2013 00:28 ottoottoottootto wrote: Hmm....wouldnt this be difficult to stop? I heard they outrun vikings now...Gotta have some vikings on patrol, is that the only solution to defending zealot harass?
Sickening right? If only protoss had to constantly split their army and have stalkers in their main to snipe incoming drops that they're never going to catch unless terran screws up.
another nice balance tweak by Blizzard. as usual , Blizzard is doing a great job tweaking yet their latest RTS product. David Kim has really come into his own.
As a heads up to everyone with the sound bug: Alt+S twice (to turn the sound off and then back on) should kill the sound loop when you get it. It's just a band aid, but it's better than having the sound on loop forever.
On June 22 2013 00:58 ThirdDegree wrote: As a heads up to everyone with the sound bug: Alt+S twice (to turn the sound off and then back on) should kill the sound loop when you get it. It's just a band aid, but it's better than having the sound on loop forever.
thx a lot sir! i get that sound bug every couple of weeks.
On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote: Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly.
Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
speed medivacs same problem
afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
"afaik warp prisms cant heal"
Shall we continue the dumb comparison?
Your argument is invalid. Which is better? 3+ heal to one unit? Or arbitrary instant troop deployment across the map from 30 production facilities?
Nothing changes late-game from right now. 30 warpgates? Current protoss lategame would already have prism speed. If you're going to fear monger, at least suggest some reasonable balance concerns -_-
Well, if the protoss is 60 supply down and spent all money on warpgates, why haven't the terran just walked with a few marauders and killed everything already?
Ah the never ending stories of people warping in 30 zealots from a WP. Because the WP is what lost that game, really. It wasn't that the protoss got to sit there and get 4500 minerals in warpgates.
And 3000 minerals of zealots
Protoss units are free just like starport units are tier 1
Enough with the 30 zealot story, anyone with a working brain knows that any race that get that kind of production will ROFLSTOMP anyone mineral or gas blocked, 5 base Zerg w/ 5 macro hatches will effing own you on the remax if you are stuck on two base production levels.
If you are losing to mass basic level units (zealot/zerling/marine) on remax... It means you didn't prepare for it!
30 rax, macro hatches or gateways need a huge area! You simply weren't scouting enough!
As I posted before, this change is what is needed to make scouting necessary instead of optional in WoL. Let's face aside from Nydus worms, in WoL there was no one unit that could vaporize a base's infrastructure.
One medivac of 4 stimmed marauders took forever to kill any building. Same goes for WoL prisms, you could literally finish building a turret in time to ward off the drop while some marines kited the zealots to death. The threat of drop ships needed to increase.
David let Terran have a taste now via afterburners and widow mine/hellbat drops... now Protoss get to be a pain in the ass in mid-game too along with Terran (hellbat and WM drops) and Zerg (muta)
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +
=kill before the opponent can react properly
a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats.
Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend.
Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers).
After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built.
You don't have random 1800 minerals in the early game. And if you did, there's a million better ways to spend them. Like taking a third base for example. Or warping in units that will help you defend that third base. Or teching. Or making cannons to protect your third base. Or building more probes. Building a macro nexus to build even more probes. Building forges. Building 18 pylons. What have you. All of the things above will probably work out better for me. There's also a few sarcastic ones in there but I won't tell you which ones they are.
There is no way for Protoss to "harrass early" except with their specialized units (Oracle, Phoenix) for the job. This stops instantly when the Zerg builds Spore Crawlers and/or maybe a few extra Queens. If you go for the "dozen Zealots" you might be able to continue harrassing while keeping your units reasonably safe ... I have no idea, but maybe some smart Protoss will figure out a build for it ... like that "counter a CC first by building a hatchery in his natural" build which Catz brought up again + Show Spoiler +
but which was really shown to us first by TLO in the TLOwnage at the end of beta
and which has been used in at least one pro match in Korea (against Innovation - unsuccessfully, BUT with several mistakes made by the Zerg ... it was a good start though and had the Terran on the back foot for a while).
The whole point of my "train of thought" is to be open minded and think about new possibilities. It is not an "every day regular build", but in certain cituations if could work ... if the Zerg is - greedy, - likes Zerglings a lot, - does not build preemptive Spore Crawlers and/or - does not build lots of Queens. The bottom line is: It could work because it is something new and thus unforeseen by the opponent ...
----
The most serious of your options is to get a third base up and running, but that will cost a lot of resources simply because you will need at least 800 minerals for a Nexus, a pylon (or two) and a cannon or two at that base, which will leave you with just 1000 minerals worth of Zealots to defend. Not a whole lot. As I said above the point is to potentially GET OUT AGAIN with all your forces without even needing a Mothership Core. The problem of the usual Warp Prism harrass is that you happily warp in tons of stuff and then lose it all if the Zerg simply has more stuff, because you only have space for 4 Zealots in your Warp Prism. If you build more than one Warp Prism you can use your force to attack AND do significant damage AND get out again.
Here's the problem with this whole 3 warp prisms 12 zealot thing. The only way you can pull it off is to pump out zealots from the start of the game and immediately get a robo for warp prisms. If the attack comes any later you potentially have mutalisks there to greet you. If your attack fails you are left without much tech, very few gateways and no third base. Basically all you have is some goofy cheese that loses if the Zerg makes any nonzero amount of roaches (we counter warp prisims with roaches by the way, not spores).
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +
=kill before the opponent can react properly
a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats.
Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend.
Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers).
After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built.
You don't have random 1800 minerals in the early game. And if you did, there's a million better ways to spend them. Like taking a third base for example. Or warping in units that will help you defend that third base. Or teching. Or making cannons to protect your third base. Or building more probes. Building a macro nexus to build even more probes. Building forges. Building 18 pylons. What have you. All of the things above will probably work out better for me. There's also a few sarcastic ones in there but I won't tell you which ones they are.
There is no way for Protoss to "harrass early" except with their specialized units (Oracle, Phoenix) for the job. This stops instantly when the Zerg builds Spore Crawlers and/or maybe a few extra Queens. If you go for the "dozen Zealots" you might be able to continue harrassing while keeping your units reasonably safe ... I have no idea, but maybe some smart Protoss will figure out a build for it ... like that "counter a CC first by building a hatchery in his natural" build which Catz brought up again + Show Spoiler +
but which was really shown to us first by TLO in the TLOwnage at the end of beta
and which has been used in at least one pro match in Korea (against Innovation - unsuccessfully, BUT with several mistakes made by the Zerg ... it was a good start though and had the Terran on the back foot for a while).
The whole point of my "train of thought" is to be open minded and think about new possibilities. It is not an "every day regular build", but in certain cituations if could work ... if the Zerg is - greedy, - likes Zerglings a lot, - does not build preemptive Spore Crawlers and/or - does not build lots of Queens. The bottom line is: It could work because it is something new and thus unforeseen by the opponent ...
----
The most serious of your options is to get a third base up and running, but that will cost a lot of resources simply because you will need at least 800 minerals for a Nexus, a pylon (or two) and a cannon or two at that base, which will leave you with just 1000 minerals worth of Zealots to defend. Not a whole lot. As I said above the point is to potentially GET OUT AGAIN with all your forces without even needing a Mothership Core. The problem of the usual Warp Prism harrass is that you happily warp in tons of stuff and then lose it all if the Zerg simply has more stuff, because you only have space for 4 Zealots in your Warp Prism. If you build more than one Warp Prism you can use your force to attack AND do significant damage AND get out again.
Here's the problem with this whole 3 warp prisms 12 zealot thing. The only way you can pull it off is to pump out zealots from the start of the game and immediately get a robo for warp prisms. If the attack comes any later you potentially have mutalisks there to greet you. If your attack fails you are left without much tech, very few gateways and no third base. Basically all you have is some goofy cheese that loses if the Zerg makes any nonzero amount of roaches (we counter warp prisims with roaches by the way, not spores).
As I said it is not a "regular build" but rather possible under certain circumstances. 1. If the Zerg is really greedy and builds almost no units but a lot of bases instead. 2. Maybe as a follow-up after a successful Phoenix / Oracle harrassment which is stopped by Spore Crawlers.
I leave the details to the pros and wouldnt discard the idea right from the start and especially the "do serious drops like Terrans and jump from main to third to natural" part is something new that could be added to the arsenal of Protoss strategies. Sniping Queens should always be worth it, but you need to have enough firepower for that and warping in stuff slows you down. Putting 12 Zealots in the Warp Prisms was just the initial idea, but it might work with a mix of Sentries and Immortals or a whole bunch of Stalkers (you could land them at a corner of the main base where you couldnt blink to for example. Colossi-micro during a battle could also be useful, but then Protoss already has the biggest amount of buttons to click - Forcefield, Blink, potentially Feedback / Storm.
Using Warp Prisms to evacuate your ground forces from the enemy base after a harrass will save the energy on the MSC for defense and I think that is another good part of the idea. Just try it before discarding it as useless.
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +
=kill before the opponent can react properly
a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats.
Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend.
Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers).
After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built.
You don't have random 1800 minerals in the early game. And if you did, there's a million better ways to spend them. Like taking a third base for example. Or warping in units that will help you defend that third base. Or teching. Or making cannons to protect your third base. Or building more probes. Building a macro nexus to build even more probes. Building forges. Building 18 pylons. What have you. All of the things above will probably work out better for me. There's also a few sarcastic ones in there but I won't tell you which ones they are.
There is no way for Protoss to "harrass early" except with their specialized units (Oracle, Phoenix) for the job. This stops instantly when the Zerg builds Spore Crawlers and/or maybe a few extra Queens. If you go for the "dozen Zealots" you might be able to continue harrassing while keeping your units reasonably safe ... I have no idea, but maybe some smart Protoss will figure out a build for it ... like that "counter a CC first by building a hatchery in his natural" build which Catz brought up again + Show Spoiler +
but which was really shown to us first by TLO in the TLOwnage at the end of beta
and which has been used in at least one pro match in Korea (against Innovation - unsuccessfully, BUT with several mistakes made by the Zerg ... it was a good start though and had the Terran on the back foot for a while).
The whole point of my "train of thought" is to be open minded and think about new possibilities. It is not an "every day regular build", but in certain cituations if could work ... if the Zerg is - greedy, - likes Zerglings a lot, - does not build preemptive Spore Crawlers and/or - does not build lots of Queens. The bottom line is: It could work because it is something new and thus unforeseen by the opponent ...
----
The most serious of your options is to get a third base up and running, but that will cost a lot of resources simply because you will need at least 800 minerals for a Nexus, a pylon (or two) and a cannon or two at that base, which will leave you with just 1000 minerals worth of Zealots to defend. Not a whole lot. As I said above the point is to potentially GET OUT AGAIN with all your forces without even needing a Mothership Core. The problem of the usual Warp Prism harrass is that you happily warp in tons of stuff and then lose it all if the Zerg simply has more stuff, because you only have space for 4 Zealots in your Warp Prism. If you build more than one Warp Prism you can use your force to attack AND do significant damage AND get out again.
Here's the problem with this whole 3 warp prisms 12 zealot thing. The only way you can pull it off is to pump out zealots from the start of the game and immediately get a robo for warp prisms. If the attack comes any later you potentially have mutalisks there to greet you. If your attack fails you are left without much tech, very few gateways and no third base. Basically all you have is some goofy cheese that loses if the Zerg makes any nonzero amount of roaches (we counter warp prisims with roaches by the way, not spores).
As I said it is not a "regular build" but rather possible under certain circumstances. 1. If the Zerg is really greedy and builds almost no units but a lot of bases instead. 2. Maybe as a follow-up after a successful Phoenix / Oracle harrassment which is stopped by Spore Crawlers.
I leave the details to the pros and wouldnt discard the idea right from the start and especially the "do serious drops like Terrans and jump from main to third to natural" part is something new that could be added to the arsenal of Protoss strategies. Sniping Queens should always be worth it, but you need to have enough firepower for that and warping in stuff slows you down. Putting 12 Zealots in the Warp Prisms was just the initial idea, but it might work with a mix of Sentries and Immortals or a whole bunch of Stalkers (you could land them at a corner of the main base where you couldnt blink to for example. Colossi-micro during a battle could also be useful, but then Protoss already has the biggest amount of buttons to click - Forcefield, Blink, potentially Feedback / Storm.
Using Warp Prisms to evacuate your ground forces from the enemy base after a harrass will save the energy on the MSC for defense and I think that is another good part of the idea. Just try it before discarding it as useless.
You could just give it a shot yourself and show us how good it is, rather than theory crafting something. There is now better way to prove something is viable than by doing it.
It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
On June 21 2013 15:37 DarkLordOlli wrote: Watching HerO stream with the new prism speed right now. It's not gamebreaking but he sure gets in the wins - through macro. His third in PvT is earlier most notably as I predicted earlier in this thread. Lategame not directly affected in the slightest except that protoss will have a good lategame army a bit quicker.
As it should be, a player with his insane multitasking should have the tools to use it. Loving the change so far.
I wonder if Protoss will ever use the Warp Prism just to drop off stuff for harrass instead of moving into an enemy base, unloading the four Zealots or Sentries and then warping in additional forces. Why not get three Warp Prisms, get into the enemy base, unload the 12 Zealots and then move the Warp Prisms out again OR keep one of them for warp ins and the other two go to other bases. The point of this would be to kill off a Queen or Spore Crawler in a quick blow while keeping the Prisms safe; even Terran bases (with the production facilities) could be wrecked by this ... at least cost him some addons which take time to rebuild.
Committing 12 zealots and 3 warp prisms to something like that will lose you the game. Unless you're talking about lategame in which case why make 3 warp prisms when you can make one and warp in?
Why will it lose you the game? The big idea is NOT to lose the Warp Prisms - by keeping it mobile - but to overwhelm (4 Zealots dont really "overwhelm" + Show Spoiler +
=kill before the opponent can react properly
a Spore or Queen) the core of the Zerg hatchery defense ... Queens and Spores. If there is just one Queen you could even pick up any remaining Zealots and drop them in another base like Terrans do with Hellbats.
Warping in stuff takes time and having more than one Warp Prism lets you start the battle far faster. The whole point is to kill before the Zerglings have run back to their base to defend.
Oh and obviously this is NOT a late game strategy but rather aimed at the really early game. You have to have a really good wall with more than just one cannon ... just to be safe. It only costs minerals and should be executed before the Zerg has any serious anti-air (Mutalisks, Hydralisks or larger amounts of Spore Crawlers).
After this harrassment is done you can use the Warp Prisms as "mobile forward pylons" to warp in Zealot harrass squads and then get to a safe spot or you could use them as patrol vehicles to look for Overlords. The big part is that you do not use any gas for the units built.
You don't have random 1800 minerals in the early game. And if you did, there's a million better ways to spend them. Like taking a third base for example. Or warping in units that will help you defend that third base. Or teching. Or making cannons to protect your third base. Or building more probes. Building a macro nexus to build even more probes. Building forges. Building 18 pylons. What have you. All of the things above will probably work out better for me. There's also a few sarcastic ones in there but I won't tell you which ones they are.
There is no way for Protoss to "harrass early" except with their specialized units (Oracle, Phoenix) for the job. This stops instantly when the Zerg builds Spore Crawlers and/or maybe a few extra Queens. If you go for the "dozen Zealots" you might be able to continue harrassing while keeping your units reasonably safe ... I have no idea, but maybe some smart Protoss will figure out a build for it ... like that "counter a CC first by building a hatchery in his natural" build which Catz brought up again + Show Spoiler +
but which was really shown to us first by TLO in the TLOwnage at the end of beta
and which has been used in at least one pro match in Korea (against Innovation - unsuccessfully, BUT with several mistakes made by the Zerg ... it was a good start though and had the Terran on the back foot for a while).
The whole point of my "train of thought" is to be open minded and think about new possibilities. It is not an "every day regular build", but in certain cituations if could work ... if the Zerg is - greedy, - likes Zerglings a lot, - does not build preemptive Spore Crawlers and/or - does not build lots of Queens. The bottom line is: It could work because it is something new and thus unforeseen by the opponent ...
----
The most serious of your options is to get a third base up and running, but that will cost a lot of resources simply because you will need at least 800 minerals for a Nexus, a pylon (or two) and a cannon or two at that base, which will leave you with just 1000 minerals worth of Zealots to defend. Not a whole lot. As I said above the point is to potentially GET OUT AGAIN with all your forces without even needing a Mothership Core. The problem of the usual Warp Prism harrass is that you happily warp in tons of stuff and then lose it all if the Zerg simply has more stuff, because you only have space for 4 Zealots in your Warp Prism. If you build more than one Warp Prism you can use your force to attack AND do significant damage AND get out again.
Here's the problem with this whole 3 warp prisms 12 zealot thing. The only way you can pull it off is to pump out zealots from the start of the game and immediately get a robo for warp prisms. If the attack comes any later you potentially have mutalisks there to greet you. If your attack fails you are left without much tech, very few gateways and no third base. Basically all you have is some goofy cheese that loses if the Zerg makes any nonzero amount of roaches (we counter warp prisims with roaches by the way, not spores).
As I said it is not a "regular build" but rather possible under certain circumstances. 1. If the Zerg is really greedy and builds almost no units but a lot of bases instead. 2. Maybe as a follow-up after a successful Phoenix / Oracle harrassment which is stopped by Spore Crawlers.
I leave the details to the pros and wouldnt discard the idea right from the start and especially the "do serious drops like Terrans and jump from main to third to natural" part is something new that could be added to the arsenal of Protoss strategies. Sniping Queens should always be worth it, but you need to have enough firepower for that and warping in stuff slows you down. Putting 12 Zealots in the Warp Prisms was just the initial idea, but it might work with a mix of Sentries and Immortals or a whole bunch of Stalkers (you could land them at a corner of the main base where you couldnt blink to for example. Colossi-micro during a battle could also be useful, but then Protoss already has the biggest amount of buttons to click - Forcefield, Blink, potentially Feedback / Storm.
Using Warp Prisms to evacuate your ground forces from the enemy base after a harrass will save the energy on the MSC for defense and I think that is another good part of the idea. Just try it before discarding it as useless.
Then clearly I'm not really understanding your point because Protoss players do incorporate drop play i their game. If a protoss drops sentries, stalkers, immortals or sentries they will almost almost take effort to save them. Zealots are the exception. They will warp in a bunch and just leave them to die. Weirdly enough I think a lot of the time Protoss players don't want the zealots to survive but to die cost effectively. Protoss doom drops are probably always going to be rare due to the effort needed to get warp prisms. Terrans already has medivacs for healing and Zerg always have like 20 overlords so its relatively easy to do large drops.
You could just give it a shot yourself and show us how good it is, rather than theory crafting something. There is now better way to prove something is viable than by doing it.
Except that would require him to actually play starcraft as opposed to just talk about it :p
On June 22 2013 01:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Enough with the 30 zealot story, anyone with a working brain knows that any race that get that kind of production will ROFLSTOMP anyone mineral or gas blocked, 5 base Zerg w/ 5 macro hatches will effing own you on the remax if you are stuck on two base production levels.
Not to mention, if they have 30 zealots warping into your main they have Prism Speed.
Which, you know, is the same as it's always been.
So this change literally doesn't effect it. At all.
On June 22 2013 01:21 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Enough with the 30 zealot story, anyone with a working brain knows that any race that get that kind of production will ROFLSTOMP anyone mineral or gas blocked, 5 base Zerg w/ 5 macro hatches will effing own you on the remax if you are stuck on two base production levels.
If you are losing to mass basic level units (zealot/zerling/marine) on remax... It means you didn't prepare for it!
30 rax, macro hatches or gateways need a huge area! You simply weren't scouting enough!
As I posted before, this change is what is needed to make scouting necessary instead of optional in WoL. Let's face aside from Nydus worms, in WoL there was no one unit that could vaporize a base's infrastructure.
One medivac of 4 stimmed marauders took forever to kill any building. Same goes for WoL prisms, you could literally finish building a turret in time to ward off the drop while some marines kited the zealots to death. The threat of drop ships needed to increase.
David let Terran have a taste now via afterburners and widow mine/hellbat drops... now Protoss get to be a pain in the ass in mid-game too along with Terran (hellbat and WM drops) and Zerg (muta)
except it takes a lot more for the terran to deal with the drop compared to all other form of harass (other than doom drop) You need to kite those marines while toss is simply mineral dumping and chargelots are almost always cost efficient in dropping. I can't remember how many times I have seen terran losing ghosts to chargelots runby because of the sheer survival ability of them
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
No, but saying that Terran has no right to complain because "Marines shoot air" is just hilariously simplistic. Plus he's the one insulting all the Terran players.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
No, but saying that Terran has no right to complain because "Marines shoot air" is just hilariously simplistic. Plus he's the one insulting all the Terran players.
I think its a little rich that Terrans are complaining at all, since the hellbat has escaped un-nerfed, medivacs are still super fast and widow mines are still bad ass. We all have shit that is stupid OP and a bitch to deal with, as it was intended.
On June 22 2013 03:36 fearus wrote: I can't wait to see Bisu tear things up with his top 1 shuttle control.
Go go go, 14 min base race. About time Terran started placing patrolling Marines or forward turrets w/ researched range before they push out as the norm. Can't wait for Protoss all-kills because opponent pulled widow mine from blind spot and forgot to replace it with a turret.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
This is the problem with people like you, you live in the past as if it was still 2010 WoL Terran on maps with 35 seconds rush distance. The game has evolved since then, move on.
On June 22 2013 03:11 J.E.G. wrote: And still only one or two base all-ins w/o warp prism since patch at plat level tvp
That doesnt say anything about balance. half pf thw Terrans at masters play some weird 2base (sometimes even 1base) allins. e.g. 2rax, 6rax, 2base hellbat allins, reactored hellion expands blablabla... Still, all the forumterrans will swear that Terran does not have a single allin possibility.
TLDR: people play shit on low levels. learn to deal with it.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
This is the problem with people like you, you live in the past as if it was still 2010 WoL Terran on maps with 35 seconds rush distance. The game has evolved since then, move on.
GomTvT was during 2011, not 2010. And you can't blame people for talking about it. It was the worst balance time ever even compared the patchzerg era. We are talking about 20+ terrans in code S. Even during the patchzerg era that got not even close to that number.
I've been trying to use the warp prism more in p vs p... But, the difference is so massive that I'm not even sure the change has gone into effect. Zzz. The warp prism seems so slow to me... It used to be even slower? Jesus christ.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
This is the problem with people like you, you live in the past as if it was still 2010 WoL Terran on maps with 35 seconds rush distance. The game has evolved since then, move on.
Be that as it may, what kind of play is this specifically bolstering for Protoss that isn't possible in the current build in PvT? Certain builds receive a boost, like the Tails DT drop, but that build's strength is due to the bloody MSC deathcannon. I had high hopes for the MSC as an auxilliary macro aid, but it's turned out as I feared in being primarily used to aid allins, or to make greedy play hard to punish. If anything vT is the matchup I see it affecting least, with PvP Immortal drops might come back into vogue, and in vZ you can exploit the Zerg's lack of pre-hydra ground-air options.
I haven't been playing lately, I'm bad anyway so I'm not seeing any experimentation on the ladder done by decent players. Would like to hear what's actually been going down!
Thank you so much for helping us test the Warp Prism changes. We're going to put the current Warp Prism changes in the balance test map into the game this week because we feel it is a good minor buff to Protoss harassing capabilities.
Changes are: o Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. o Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 2.625.
We will be closely monitoring both ladder and tournament games to make sure everything goes as expected once the changes go live.
As for the other changes in the balance test map, we're still looking into them and more playtesting/feedback from you guys will be greatly appreciated. We believe this collaborative community effort is really helpful for the game. Thank you.
Cool patch, i'm glad to see this...
I wonder though why those numbers 2.953 and 2.625 are so specific (with so many decimals) i wonder how they balanced that... why not 3 and 2.6 ? it must be connected to some other units' movement speeds... hmm
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
This is the problem with people like you, you live in the past as if it was still 2010 WoL Terran on maps with 35 seconds rush distance. The game has evolved since then, move on.
Be that as it may, what kind of play is this specifically bolstering for Protoss that isn't possible in the current build in PvT? Certain builds receive a boost, like the Tails DT drop, but that build's strength is due to the bloody MSC deathcannon. I had high hopes for the MSC as an auxilliary macro aid, but it's turned out as I feared in being primarily used to aid allins, or to make greedy play hard to punish. If anything vT is the matchup I see it affecting least, with PvP Immortal drops might come back into vogue, and in vZ you can exploit the Zerg's lack of pre-hydra ground-air options.
I haven't been playing lately, I'm bad anyway so I'm not seeing any experimentation on the ladder done by decent players. Would like to hear what's actually been going down!
To be fair, zergs had a hard time killing the warp prisms before the buff, so not all that much has really changed in that regard.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
This is the problem with people like you, you live in the past as if it was still 2010 WoL Terran on maps with 35 seconds rush distance. The game has evolved since then, move on.
Be that as it may, what kind of play is this specifically bolstering for Protoss that isn't possible in the current build in PvT? Certain builds receive a boost, like the Tails DT drop, but that build's strength is due to the bloody MSC deathcannon. I had high hopes for the MSC as an auxilliary macro aid, but it's turned out as I feared in being primarily used to aid allins, or to make greedy play hard to punish. If anything vT is the matchup I see it affecting least, with PvP Immortal drops might come back into vogue, and in vZ you can exploit the Zerg's lack of pre-hydra ground-air options.
I haven't been playing lately, I'm bad anyway so I'm not seeing any experimentation on the ladder done by decent players. Would like to hear what's actually been going down!
To be fair, zergs had a hard time killing the warp prisms before the buff, so not all that much has really changed in that regard.
Yeah, but it's a bit speedier and manouverable. I recall seeing HerO using a Prism and loading with 4 Zealots, dropping on Queens and surrounding the Queens and sniping them.
Zealots aren't quite hellbats, but a more speedy WP might make it easier to do those kind of plays, chase fleeing drones for extra hits and stuff like that in the phase of the game where you would usually be harassing with Phoenixes.
On June 22 2013 07:52 Wombat_NI wrote: Be that as it may, what kind of play is this specifically bolstering for Protoss that isn't possible in the current build in PvT? Certain builds receive a boost, like the Tails DT drop, but that build's strength is due to the bloody MSC deathcannon. I had high hopes for the MSC as an auxilliary macro aid, but it's turned out as I feared in being primarily used to aid allins, or to make greedy play hard to punish. If anything vT is the matchup I see it affecting least, with PvP Immortal drops might come back into vogue, and in vZ you can exploit the Zerg's lack of pre-hydra ground-air options.
I haven't been playing lately, I'm bad anyway so I'm not seeing any experimentation on the ladder done by decent players. Would like to hear what's actually been going down!
It strenghtens midgame for Protoss, which is not a good thing considering this is the phase in which Terran has to use his initiative to build a lead, or simply win. Strenghtening Protoss' midgame also means they will have an easier time getting to lategame, with little to no hope for Terran.
Zealots/DTs raids are extremely annoying to deal with because your army is supposed to be on the other side of the map pressuring, and you have to spent attention/time microing the units coming from your production while Protoss is free to let his units in autopilot (unmicroed Zealots/DTs massacre unmicroed bio in small numbers). Before, a single Viking could make sure the Prism would be destroyed even if Protoss parked it somewhere around your base; now it's no longer possible since you won't catch the Prism if he unloads/warps and goes away.
Yeah that does kind of make sense when it's put in those terms.
PvT is something of a see-saw with corresponding periods of strength. P has early map control, wrested off them in the midgame when medivacs come out but that window is small and the pendulum swings somewhat in lategame, only returning back to T imo when you get to the fabled 'superlategame'.
I still would rather see a MSC cannon nerf, with corresponding buffs elsewhere (like to the Warp Prism). I've felt recently It's that Protoss can sit back a lot safer, while exerting that kind of map pressure. I mean, there's really not much of a risk apart from the VERY top level in sending a single warp prism out onto the map if you have the crutch of photo overcharge, forcefields and other things in your arsenal.
When HoTS was first being played in tournaments Protoss were getting wrecked by drop play, until they just figured that they should turtle and tech harder on 2 bases for longer, cutting units if necessary and make up their inevitable supply deficit with an upgrade lead and the tech they need for lategame.
I'll take a more fun PvZ and PvP, but I do think PvT has taken a bit of a hit and become stale as hell. In WoL, it was similarly compositionally stagnant but I felt there was more finesse and execution required from the Protoss player defensively.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
No, but saying that Terran has no right to complain because "Marines shoot air" is just hilariously simplistic. Plus he's the one insulting all the Terran players.
I think its a little rich that Terrans are complaining at all, since the hellbat has escaped un-nerfed, medivacs are still super fast and widow mines are still bad ass. We all have shit that is stupid OP and a bitch to deal with, as it was intended.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air.
This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air.
This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this.
I think the annoying thing with this whole situation is people look at bio having to maybe do some defense for a change is a bad thing.
I like that bio isn't able to just sit out on the map for free now and heck, maybe it'll even help promote mech.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
While I don't know if I agree with your conclusion, I'm adjusting many more of strategies versus Zerg than versus Terran based on this.
Thank you so much for helping us test the Warp Prism changes. We're going to put the current Warp Prism changes in the balance test map into the game this week because we feel it is a good minor buff to Protoss harassing capabilities.
Changes are: o Movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. o Acceleration increased from 2.125 to 2.625.
We will be closely monitoring both ladder and tournament games to make sure everything goes as expected once the changes go live.
As for the other changes in the balance test map, we're still looking into them and more playtesting/feedback from you guys will be greatly appreciated. We believe this collaborative community effort is really helpful for the game. Thank you.
Cool patch, i'm glad to see this...
I wonder though why those numbers 2.953 and 2.625 are so specific (with so many decimals) i wonder how they balanced that... why not 3 and 2.6 ? it must be connected to some other units' movement speeds... hmm
Well .625 = 5/8 and .953 is likely a rounded .953125 = 61/64
Whatever discrete coordinate system they are using on their side probably operates in increments of 1/64 or 1/256 for technical reasons.
On June 22 2013 03:11 J.E.G. wrote: And still only one or two base all-ins w/o warp prism since patch at plat level tvp
That doesnt say anything about balance. half pf thw Terrans at masters play some weird 2base (sometimes even 1base) allins. e.g. 2rax, 6rax, 2base hellbat allins, reactored hellion expands blablabla... Still, all the forumterrans will swear that Terran does not have a single allin possibility.
TLDR: people play shit on low levels. learn to deal with it.
Where did I say anything about balance, ya big dummy? I want my games to be more interesting instead of protoss all-in succeeds and i lose, or fails and i win. Boring.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Thedwf being classy as always, the classic idra line "your knowledge of the game is not as good as mine!", Good Terrans are dealing with this already, perhaps due to adapting instead of complaining.
On June 22 2013 07:52 Wombat_NI wrote: Be that as it may, what kind of play is this specifically bolstering for Protoss that isn't possible in the current build in PvT? Certain builds receive a boost, like the Tails DT drop, but that build's strength is due to the bloody MSC deathcannon. I had high hopes for the MSC as an auxilliary macro aid, but it's turned out as I feared in being primarily used to aid allins, or to make greedy play hard to punish. If anything vT is the matchup I see it affecting least, with PvP Immortal drops might come back into vogue, and in vZ you can exploit the Zerg's lack of pre-hydra ground-air options.
I haven't been playing lately, I'm bad anyway so I'm not seeing any experimentation on the ladder done by decent players. Would like to hear what's actually been going down!
It strenghtens midgame for Protoss, which is not a good thing considering this is the phase in which Terran has to use his initiative to build a lead, or simply win. Strenghtening Protoss' midgame also means they will have an easier time getting to lategame, with little to no hope for Terran.
Zealots/DTs raids are extremely annoying to deal with because your army is supposed to be on the other side of the map pressuring, and you have to spent attention/time microing the units coming from your production while Protoss is free to let his units in autopilot (unmicroed Zealots/DTs massacre unmicroed bio in small numbers). Before, a single Viking could make sure the Prism would be destroyed even if Protoss parked it somewhere around your base; now it's no longer possible since you won't catch the Prism if he unloads/warps and goes away.
"My race is supposed to be able to completely leave our base the entire game without any risk and without building static defense. It's the protoss's job to defend everything all the time and i won't stand for it!"
seriously how old are you man? you think it's imbalanced that protoss doesn't have to lose their warp prism if they have good multitasking and control? What makes your race so special that you feel you're the only ones that should be able to safely multitask different groups of units?
how about building static defenses, having patrolling vikings, or even having the greatest scouting tool ever...the sensor tower
protoss has to invest into many observer to stop drops, plus blink or feedback, stalkers/ht's at a base, and eventually cannons. that's SO MUCH GAS and so much splitting of an already weak army. and besides, it's not like the protoss has any good harassment units(dt's aren't worth the cost assuming you have non-crappy scouting/detection)
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
On June 22 2013 14:16 Thinasy wrote: Like this will change much when there arent any useful units to drop as Protoss since everything is so weak on its own in the protoss arsenal.
DT's, HT's and Immortals are all really good WP units, and the buff will allow for more HT/Immo drops to be possible due to the retreat being faster. i see in the future double WP Colossus drops onto mineral lines.
On June 22 2013 14:16 Thinasy wrote: Like this will change much when there arent any useful units to drop as Protoss since everything is so weak on its own in the protoss arsenal.
DT's, HT's and Immortals are all really good WP units, and the buff will allow for more HT/Immo drops to be possible due to the retreat being faster. i see in the future double WP Colossus drops onto mineral lines.
DT's yes i'll give you that, Immortals and Warp prisms is mostly a micro thing in battles, other then that? nah, I cant see someone risking dropping colossus or immortals since they cant do shitloads of damage just straight up. Warp Prism is still really fragile, HT drops maybe, but storms doesnt really do THAT much damage imo (im playing terran) they arent BW storms for sure. You have plenty of time to react to a HT drop since workers doesnt die immediately.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air.
This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this.
I think the annoying thing with this whole situation is people look at bio having to maybe do some defense for a change is a bad thing.
I like that bio isn't able to just sit out on the map for free now and heck, maybe it'll even help promote mech.
I am at a complete loss how you think this could possibly in any scenario promote mech. If anything it will be completely the opposite.
For example when going mech the toss will have an even longer window early game with full map control. That means you have to keep your army at the front all the time in case he decided to do an all-in and attack (the majority of the games). But then with new warp prisms he drops bunch of sentries in your main, FFs ramp, proceeds to win. So then you would need to place your army around the ramp, which means if the toss attacks the bunker at your natural ramp is pretty much irrelevant. The same is true with a bio build, although then you can more quickly get some map control, and your army is a bit faster than siege tanks are.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Give Turrets and spores bonus against light, then make Warpprism and Medvavs light units. Bonus against light is also good against Mutas (replace vs bio of spores) and Phoenixes, the two massed flyers. That way static defense would get a relevant advantage over units.
Well, the meching player is more likely to have well placed widow mines that will stop the WP in it's tracks and give Terran an edge because of the wasted sentries, but I agree that this change will only promote WM usage, not mech persay.
I'm really excited about the change. There are a few strategies and tactics I'm excited to revisit with the buff. There was a tactic based on a quick immortal and 2 stalkers running around in a warp prism killing overlords and forcing Zerg to produce units, it should be better now. Also I want to try to rush out a colossus drop. Fried marines and scv's, yummy.
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
The fact that marines can shoot air is irrelevant? It allows for Terran to stop early warp prism harrass much easier than Zerg who can't use their zerglings to shoot air.
This guy is a high ranked Terran but he's pretty much almost Avilo #2 in my eyes now..incredibly biased towards his race..pity such a high ranked player has to be like this.
I think the annoying thing with this whole situation is people look at bio having to maybe do some defense for a change is a bad thing.
I like that bio isn't able to just sit out on the map for free now and heck, maybe it'll even help promote mech.
I am at a complete loss how you think this could possibly in any scenario promote mech. If anything it will be completely the opposite. .
yup....Mech is far more vulnerable to warp prism harass than bio. No way you'll see any mech at the pro level because of this change!
On June 22 2013 02:26 GhostOwl wrote: It makes no sense to me whatever that Terrans are the majority of the complainers here. If anything, Zergs have way harder time dealing with warp prisms...T's T1 unit can attack air, Zerg has.....slow queens? Turrets, vikings, marines, widow mines can all effectively shut down warp prism..Zerg has to rely on mutas (which means those mutas can't use the time to harrass the Protoss mineral line)
I guess we just found out that Zerg players on TL are much more open minded and accepting while Terran players on TL are much more confrontational and biased
Or your low knowledge of the TvP match-up doesn't allow you to understand why this change is bad for Terrans. The fact Marines can shoot air is like completely irrelevant; or maybe they also fly in your version of the game so they can chase the Prism parked in the air space near your bases?
Translation: "If you were a bad ass GM like me, you would have a deeper understanding of how bad this change is for my race. But you aren't, your point is invalid. Come back when your on my level."
Actually Painuser was another GM... and god knows how good any of terrans bitching on Artosis' show are anyway. But yeah gomtvt that was a healthy era wasn't it. That's why this community focuses on awesome gameplay rather than drama. Because the game is so well designed and interesting.
Avilo got temp banned for his whining the last I knew.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Give Turrets and spores bonus against light, then make Warpprism and Medvavs light units. Bonus against light is also good against Mutas (replace vs bio of spores) and Phoenixes, the two massed flyers. That way static defense would get a relevant advantage over units.
Nah Zergs need more AA option. NOT BUFFING SPORES AGAIN!!!
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Shuttles are still faster than Prisms, Arbiters are more powerful than prisms. You needed more than 20 turrets to stop an Arbiter recall (not kidding). In late game TvP it was not rare to see Flash make more than 50 turrets on Fighting Spirit, with far less bases than Toss and just have to deal with it. On top of this you always played pure-mech which was extremely immobile compared to stimmed marines who can also shoot air, 1 recall often changed an almost won game into an instant loss.
When Protoss went fast robotics, you had to surround your base with turrets or lose all your scvs and tanks to one reaver shot, Protoss can actually choose to just expand afterwards thus making you waste all your money. This actually happened in a semi-final and Flash ultimately (pun intended) was eliminated from the tournament.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Low lvl biased yada yada. As seen here--> The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Terran has to do damage in the midgame and this buff makes that window smalller giving toss a stronger lategame. As we all know lategame pvt requires inferior battle management than the opponent. Casting some storms isn't intense micro at all.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Shuttles are still faster than Prisms, Arbiters are more powerful than prisms. You needed more than 20 turrets to stop an Arbiter recall (not kidding). In late game TvP it was not rare to see Flash make more than 50 turrets on Fighting Spirit, with far less bases than Toss and just have to deal with it. On top of this you always played pure-mech which was extremely immobile compared to stimmed marines who can also shoot air, 1 recall often changed an almost won game into an instant loss.
When Protoss went fast robotics, you had to surround your base with turrets or lose all your scvs and tanks to one reaver shot, Protoss can actually choose to just expand afterwards thus making you waste all your money. This actually happened in a semi-final and Flash ultimately (pun intended) was eliminated from the tournament.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
As someone that played both sides of that mu in BW, it truly boggles my mind to see how much balance talk/whining there is in SC 2, when there seemed to be almost none in BW. I mean, I'd see people say z > p. But, even when you would see people say one race was favored over another, it always seemed to be in a rather matter of fact manner, and as if it was no big deal. Since people viewed it as the most balanced RTS game, there was a feeling of "since no one can be perfect, it's hard to hate too much on the person viewed as being closest to perfect."
Yet, in SC 2, every race thinks they're the underdog, or at least Terrans think playing their race is like mission impossible: if their APM slips below 200, the loss screen automatically appears and likewise if their minerals go over 500. So, naturally, since they're playing in unfair conditions, they deserve to have the most potential. In BW, I sure as hell wouldn't have made a fuss over how hard it was to micro with Terran. It was a lot harder to micro than Toss in BW than the difference between the two in SC 2, but that's hardly what made it imbalanced.
In BW, not only did you need to make a ton of turrets at each base to deter it from entering your base (the least cost efficient thing ever), but vessels had the smallest emp radius ever. It was near impossible to emp them. Even if it was apparent they couldn't recall due to 100 turrets or w/e, you still had to overcome the equivalent of having half of your army always be force fielded out. I remember seeing some insane tidbit, that in a pro league season no toss players lost when making at least 1 arbiter... they were that good... And with so much fuss about broodlords + infestors in WoL, it was still soo, soo much easier to face than carriers in BW.
I think blizzard actively trying to balance the game has really made everyone vocal and quite biased. As for Avilo, you could beat him 50 games in a row and he could be 5 ranks lower than you, and he would still lecture you after every game about how you played bad and tell you how you should have played it. With that kinda of personality/delusional type, you'd prob have to win GSL to gain credibility, or at least take everything with a grain of salt.
In BW, if you openly thought your race was better than another, it just didn't matter because the game was final. If you felt you got the short end of the stick, you just had to deal with it.
On June 22 2013 19:16 SolidZeal wrote: Well, the meching player is more likely to have well placed widow mines that will stop the WP in it's tracks and give Terran an edge because of the wasted sentries, but I agree that this change will only promote WM usage, not mech persay.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
As said before, while I am afraid for the all-in potential I am not per se against the warp prism change. However the amount of misinformation thrown around here is impressive.
Apparently we now only need 1 turret to stop warp prism play? That is just bullshit. If that was the case I wouldn't be afraid for all-ins, you need fast turrets against toss anyway in HotS against all their other all-ins. But the idea that one turret would do enough dps against a warp prism to take it out before it left its range, or that it even has the range to cover your base is just weird.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Wow someone is mad? Luckily then all those terrans will drop to their rightful place, right? It isn't like except in bronze there are more toss players in every league than terran players, oh wait, it is exactly like that.
One turret really won't do anything to stop warp prism play. Sure a turret ring does, but by the time a turret ring becomes realistic this change is irrelevant, since then the toss should have warp prism speed anyway. Anyway does that also mean toss won't complain about hellbats anymore? Since you can just make a cannon ring around your base?
@SsDrKosS, so that is also for you, static defenses are fairly irrelevant against most types of warp prism play until you can completely ring your base with them. Also such comparisons are always doubtful. Sure turrets have good dps, but they can't shoot ground units, and we don't have planetary nexus. (Please don't say that we should make our main CC into a PF).
Ok I can understand some of the terran qq related too WP all-ins and WP based pressures in the early and mid game, but someone will have too enlighten me how the hell is late game TvP impossible to win. Very little has actually changed, protoss have gotten Tempest, but I've yet too see enough games that I'd consider it a problem, and of the few games I have seen they don't seem that bad, this all coming from a terran perspective.
The real issue with this change is that I fell it misses the mark on how too reach their goal, I'm not sure this will make games more dynamic as they want too. I believe the main problem still lies in the overall design of the Protoss race, and no amount of stupid, superficial buffs/units is ever going too change that. But that's a discussion for another topic.
Im curious about people when they say "Able to warp 30 zealots in". That damn circle is so small, you get stuck doing it in waves of 10-12 or so depending on the positioning.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read.
On June 22 2013 21:45 Destructicon wrote: Ok I can understand some of the terran qq related too WP all-ins and WP based pressures in the early and mid game, but someone will have too enlighten me how the hell is late game TvP impossible to win. Very little has actually changed, protoss have gotten Tempest, but I've yet too see enough games that I'd consider it a problem, and of the few games I have seen they don't seem that bad, this all coming from a terran perspective.
.
In the late game (many) terrans have always had the belief that Protoss has always been far too powerful in the late game, with its storm/collossus deathball and mass warpin reinforcements, yet a number of protoss also believe terran to be the one who is imbalanced late game with its mass ghost/viking combo. I honestly have no idea how Terran could deal with mass tempests, they are just insanely strong, yet I've never seen one protoss be able to get many of them in a late game situation, so I can't exactly complain about them.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Shuttles are still faster than Prisms, Arbiters are more powerful than prisms. You needed more than 20 turrets to stop an Arbiter recall (not kidding). In late game TvP it was not rare to see Flash make more than 50 turrets on Fighting Spirit, with far less bases than Toss and just have to deal with it. On top of this you always played pure-mech which was extremely immobile compared to stimmed marines who can also shoot air, 1 recall often changed an almost won game into an instant loss.
When Protoss went fast robotics, you had to surround your base with turrets or lose all your scvs and tanks to one reaver shot, Protoss can actually choose to just expand afterwards thus making you waste all your money. This actually happened in a semi-final and Flash ultimately (pun intended) was eliminated from the tournament.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
As someone that played both sides of that mu in BW, it truly boggles my mind to see how much balance talk/whining there is in SC 2, when there seemed to be almost none in BW. I mean, I'd see people say z > p. But, even when you would see people say one race was favored over another, it always seemed to be in a rather matter of fact manner, and as if it was no big deal. Since people viewed it as the most balanced RTS game, there was a feeling of "since no one can be perfect, it's hard to hate too much on the person viewed as being closest to perfect."
Yet, in SC 2, every race thinks they're the underdog, or at least Terrans think playing their race is like mission impossible: if their APM slips below 200, the loss screen automatically appears and likewise if their minerals go over 500. So, naturally, since they're playing in unfair conditions, they deserve to have the most potential. In BW, I sure as hell wouldn't have made a fuss over how hard it was to micro with Terran. It was a lot harder to micro than Toss in BW than the difference between the two in SC 2, but that's hardly what made it imbalanced.
In BW, not only did you need to make a ton of turrets at each base to deter it from entering your base (the least cost efficient thing ever), but vessels had the smallest emp radius ever. It was near impossible to emp them. Even if it was apparent they couldn't recall due to 100 turrets or w/e, you still had to overcome the equivalent of having half of your army always be force fielded out. I remember seeing some insane tidbit, that in a pro league season no toss players lost when making at least 1 arbiter... they were that good... And with so much fuss about broodlords + infestors in WoL, it was still soo, soo much easier to face than carriers in BW.
I think blizzard actively trying to balance the game has really made everyone vocal and quite biased. As for Avilo, you could beat him 50 games in a row and he could be 5 ranks lower than you, and he would still lecture you after every game about how you played bad and tell you how you should have played it. With that kinda of personality/delusional type, you'd prob have to win GSL to gain credibility, or at least take everything with a grain of salt.
In BW, if you openly thought your race was better than another, it just didn't matter because the game was final. If you felt you got the short end of the stick, you just had to deal with it.
It's because the ladder has a forced 50% winrate while people enjoy a 70ish% winrate.
BW was fringe enough that only the people who wanted to be competitive played the iCCup, the rest just played moneymaps and lurker defense.
In SC2, everyone is funneled into the ladder system--including those who would rather be playing 3v5 comp on fastest map ever. Those people who only think they want to compete lash out because less than 70% angers them. These player personalities fill all leagues from bronze to idra.
On June 22 2013 19:16 SolidZeal wrote: Well, the meching player is more likely to have well placed widow mines that will stop the WP in it's tracks and give Terran an edge because of the wasted sentries, but I agree that this change will only promote WM usage, not mech persay.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
As said before, while I am afraid for the all-in potential I am not per se against the warp prism change. However the amount of misinformation thrown around here is impressive.
Apparently we now only need 1 turret to stop warp prism play? That is just bullshit. If that was the case I wouldn't be afraid for all-ins, you need fast turrets against toss anyway in HotS against all their other all-ins. But the idea that one turret would do enough dps against a warp prism to take it out before it left its range, or that it even has the range to cover your base is just weird.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Wow someone is mad? Luckily then all those terrans will drop to their rightful place, right? It isn't like except in bronze there are more toss players in every league than terran players, oh wait, it is exactly like that.
One turret really won't do anything to stop warp prism play. Sure a turret ring does, but by the time a turret ring becomes realistic this change is irrelevant, since then the toss should have warp prism speed anyway. Anyway does that also mean toss won't complain about hellbats anymore? Since you can just make a cannon ring around your base?
@SsDrKosS, so that is also for you, static defenses are fairly irrelevant against most types of warp prism play until you can completely ring your base with them. Also such comparisons are always doubtful. Sure turrets have good dps, but they can't shoot ground units, and we don't have planetary nexus. (Please don't say that we should make our main CC into a PF).
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. .
Lol, you know what's bullshit? Missile Turrets in SC2.
When I first played Terran in SC2 and watched 1 turret fend off a flock of mutas and practically instagib transport units I nearly spit out my coffee. Missile Turrets in SC2 are actually extremely overpowered (in the true sense of the word), just nobody realises it because it was like that in the game from the beginning.
I remember when you had to build 8 turrets to fend off 6 mutas that could be spawned before you even had 5 marines, and now people complain about having to make something other than 1 viking, its actually hilarious.
Because of the insane DPS of Missile Turrets in SC2, people never realised that turrets actually have utility beyond being a building which kills air units. The thought of "If it doesn't outright kill/stop the prism, it must be useless" just boggles my mind.
If you need more than 2-3 turrets to defend drop play your turret positioning is atrocious, and you need to learn it. Almost no Terrans understand the science of Turret positioning because before now, it just wasn't necessary. Now you have to learn it and maybe your TvZ will also improve as a result instead of blindly building turrets without a second thought.
I can't wait for the massive amounts of balance whine to just suddenly grind to a halt when while everyone is busy complaining about imbalance, Flash actually figures out hex perfect turret positioning for each map and can prevent drops with a single turret.
That statement alone may confuse you, but that's because most players can't figure shit out on their own and think if a pro hasn't done it already it can't exist and therefore won't bother learning it. Much like how I never saw anyone use simcity until pros started doing it a lot.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
Low lvl biased yada yada. As seen here--> The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Terran has to do damage in the midgame and this buff makes that window smalller giving toss a stronger lategame. As we all know lategame pvt requires inferior battle management than the opponent. Casting some storms isn't intense micro at all.
"Casting some storms isn't intense micro at all" "Casting some storms isn't intense micro at all" "Casting some storms isn't intense micro at all" "Casting some storms isn't intense micro at all" "Casting some storms isn't intense micro at all"
well, maybe in diamond it isn,t but you really think that spreanding my High Templars cause they are super vulnerable to emps casted by invisible units isn't micro intensive? This post is silly, people complaining about everything that their race doesn't have but other races do have. Your know, races are suposed to be different in Starcraft.
And by the way, about warp prisms, turrets exist, and they are QUITE good.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read.
I hope you get banned...you don't quote someone's post and just insult it without giving your reason. We all know what race you play.
On June 22 2013 21:45 Destructicon wrote: Ok I can understand some of the terran qq related too WP all-ins and WP based pressures in the early and mid game, but someone will have too enlighten me how the hell is late game TvP impossible to win. Very little has actually changed, protoss have gotten Tempest, but I've yet too see enough games that I'd consider it a problem, and of the few games I have seen they don't seem that bad, this all coming from a terran perspective.
.
In the late game (many) terrans have always had the belief that Protoss has always been far too powerful in the late game, with its storm/collossus deathball and mass warpin reinforcements, yet a number of protoss also believe terran to be the one who is imbalanced late game with its mass ghost/viking combo. I honestly have no idea how Terran could deal with mass tempests, they are just insanely strong, yet I've never seen one protoss be able to get many of them in a late game situation, so I can't exactly complain about them.
"PROTOSS TOO STRONG, MASS TEMPEST" is the same thing as "TERRAN TOO STRONG, MASS BATTLECRUISERS"
Yeah, if you get a fuckload of battlecruisers, Protoss can't stop you, but no one gets to that point unless you are ahead of the Protoss by like 3 bases (and in that case, you should just steamroll him no matter what u build)
Saying "mass tempest, Protoss late game army unstoppable" is a very bad argument and a unlikely one.
Honestly, Ghost outrange HT so a Terran really decides the game with his micro, if he can emp the HT / army before the Storms come in, Protoss army just dies. Terran army can fight a battle, and retreat if its not going his way, but Protoss army cannot because of concussive shells. The game is decided by the Terran player which is what many Protoss players are complaining about in PvT late game.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read.
I hope you get banned...you don't quote someone's post and just insult it without giving your reason. We all know what race you play.
On June 22 2013 21:45 Destructicon wrote: Ok I can understand some of the terran qq related too WP all-ins and WP based pressures in the early and mid game, but someone will have too enlighten me how the hell is late game TvP impossible to win. Very little has actually changed, protoss have gotten Tempest, but I've yet too see enough games that I'd consider it a problem, and of the few games I have seen they don't seem that bad, this all coming from a terran perspective.
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In the late game (many) terrans have always had the belief that Protoss has always been far too powerful in the late game, with its storm/collossus deathball and mass warpin reinforcements, yet a number of protoss also believe terran to be the one who is imbalanced late game with its mass ghost/viking combo. I honestly have no idea how Terran could deal with mass tempests, they are just insanely strong, yet I've never seen one protoss be able to get many of them in a late game situation, so I can't exactly complain about them.
"PROTOSS TOO STRONG, MASS TEMPEST" is the same thing as "TERRAN TOO STRONG, MASS BATTLECRUISERS"
Yeah, if you get a fuckload of battlecruisers, Protoss can't stop you, but no one gets to that point unless you are ahead of the Protoss by like 3 bases (and in that case, you should just steamroll him no matter what u build)
Saying "mass tempest, Protoss late game army unstoppable" is a very bad argument and a unlikely one.
Honestly, Ghost outrange HT so a Terran really decides the game with his micro, if he can emp the HT / army before the Storms come in, Protoss army just dies. Terran army can fight a battle, and retreat if its not going his way, but Protoss army cannot because of concussive shells. The game is decided by the Terran player which is what many Protoss players are complaining about in PvT late game.
Yup, because someone stating that missile turrets are overpowered and causing terrans to be placed in leagues too high for their skill level clearly warrants an intelligent response. Judging by your posts in this thread, you're as biased as anyone else.
fact #1: protoss is a bit too weak right now (source: blizzard) fact #2: warp prism rewards skillful usage and makes the game more entertaining to watch (source: common sense)
On June 23 2013 01:11 uLysSeS1 wrote: fact #1: protoss is a bit too weak right now (source: blizzard) fact #2: warp prism rewards skillful usage and makes the game more entertaining to watch (source: common sense)
=> perfect change
Yes, mid-game, a decent amount of marauders/marine/medivac can wreck a Protoss gateway army head-to-head, and Protoss have no recourse but a slippery slope downhill, but with this patch the threat of a backstab evens the odds for the Protoss to stay in the game longer if he manages to land critical damage with his WP.
Whatever happened to people taking the initiative and learning how to deal with things, rather than just whining and hoping Blizzard can make the game easier for them... :/
just compensate this good buff requires skills by a revert nerf of a silly change like dt shrine cost for example a cheese that reward nothing but luck and a command move in a mineral line
I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates. It seems quite a few of you keep coming back to this and I just think this is preposterous. If anyone can actually show this and prove me wrong feel free to do so. As long as it is an actual high level tournament game of significance. I definitely know this is NOT the norm. Most pro games I see don't go over 12-15 gates and I'd say 25% of games stay between 7-10. I wanna see all these 30 gate toss games, lol.
I don't see any problems with the prism buff at all, even though I find it strange that Blizzard thinks that Protoss actually needs a buff. Protoss is such a good race, especially for all you guys on ladder. You can either play the Protoss deathball style or the all-in style up to high masters, very forgiving and even easy to play. I'll never understand the random Protoss ladder player who whines about their race.
On June 22 2013 19:16 SolidZeal wrote: Well, the meching player is more likely to have well placed widow mines that will stop the WP in it's tracks and give Terran an edge because of the wasted sentries, but I agree that this change will only promote WM usage, not mech persay.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
As said before, while I am afraid for the all-in potential I am not per se against the warp prism change. However the amount of misinformation thrown around here is impressive.
Apparently we now only need 1 turret to stop warp prism play? That is just bullshit. If that was the case I wouldn't be afraid for all-ins, you need fast turrets against toss anyway in HotS against all their other all-ins. But the idea that one turret would do enough dps against a warp prism to take it out before it left its range, or that it even has the range to cover your base is just weird.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Wow someone is mad? Luckily then all those terrans will drop to their rightful place, right? It isn't like except in bronze there are more toss players in every league than terran players, oh wait, it is exactly like that.
One turret really won't do anything to stop warp prism play. Sure a turret ring does, but by the time a turret ring becomes realistic this change is irrelevant, since then the toss should have warp prism speed anyway. Anyway does that also mean toss won't complain about hellbats anymore? Since you can just make a cannon ring around your base?
@SsDrKosS, so that is also for you, static defenses are fairly irrelevant against most types of warp prism play until you can completely ring your base with them. Also such comparisons are always doubtful. Sure turrets have good dps, but they can't shoot ground units, and we don't have planetary nexus. (Please don't say that we should make our main CC into a PF).
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. .
If you need more than 2-3 turrets to defend drop play your turret positioning is atrocious, and you need to learn it. Almost no Terrans understand the science of Turret positioning because before now, it just wasn't necessary. Now you have to learn it and maybe your TvZ will also improve as a result instead of blindly building turrets without a second thought.
I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Not to mention even if 2-3 turrets would be all it would take (how many bases is that btw in your game, which seems to have a bit more turret range), it still wouldn't be realistic against all-ins. Later, sure. But by then nothing has changed compared to before patch anyway.
Btw it is really easy to call everyone horrible regarding turret placement, I can do it too: Protoss need to understand the science of blinking. They would win every game if they weren't so horrible with it. That statement is as useful as yours, in other words: please enlighten us how we all place our turrets wrong, and where we should place them instead.
To everyone stating that turrets cant handle warp prisms.. You really need to play this game more if you actually believe that
Yeah if he switched to warp mode on top of a missile turret, sure. But really that would be pretty retarded of that player. And the reason I am dubious about this buff is not because I don't think I can handle warp prisms, it is because right now protoss has a shitton of all-ins. And with this change it has a shitton + several more around warp prisms, where dropping sentries, FF'ing ramp, warping in units is the one I am most afraid for. If that was the only thing I wouldn't be worried, but combine it with all the other all-ins that are very hard to distinguish and i am worried.
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates.
Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played
If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close.
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates.
Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played
If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close.
Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates.
Thorzain was a dead man walking. Hasuobs had three quarters of that map and was just waiting for Thorzain to starve. But in order to keep it that way, there was never the supply to mass warp zealots into the back, the main army of Hasu was always patrolling the front and the supply was constantly tied up.
Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Warp Prism drops against Terran still have to deal with the fact that, even in the best case scenario, you're not going to kill anything except supply depots and addons. Your gateway units can't catch up to/kill fleeing SCVs and everything else can just lift off.
On June 23 2013 10:41 Xequecal wrote: Warp Prism drops against Terran still have to deal with the fact that, even in the best case scenario, you're not going to kill anything except supply depots and addons. Your gateway units can't catch up to/kill fleeing SCVs and everything else can just lift off.
If a warpin has caused Terran to lift off his buildings, Terran has already lost the game.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Units in a bunker cost supply ... and this reduces the size of the army you have to engagem the opponents army ... and thus your chance of success. People could build turrets, but they are too greedy to do that most of the time and for the third or fourth that isnt a solution, because you can usually walk to them from a nearby pylon (which doesnt cost the Protoss any supply compared to the Warp Prism).
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, Terran cannot have an advantage in quality of units in the mid game (protoss has chronoboost for upgrades and generally stronger tech in Collosi and/or High Templar), so it's important to maintain a quantity advantage and soft contain protoss to delay their economy. That's why it's not unusual to see Terran at ~180 supply around 13:00 while protoss has ~130. Protoss has better tech and upgrades, so they're not actually that far behind, but it does create scary timing moments when Terran upgrades finish before the second form of AoE is out (i.e. a small window where Terran has a quantity advantage and equalizes on quality). Wether or not Terran tries to hit this timing, it's the threat of it that allows Terran to transition from mid game to late game.
If you're leaving a bunch of units in bunkers, you're giving Protoss the safety to take an earlier third and not fall behind on economy, and I honestly can't see any Terran player winning without taking a big economy lead in the mid game. Even players who play ghost / viking turtle rely on this economy advantage to get the 8+ gas economy required to start really massing ghosts.
On June 23 2013 10:41 Xequecal wrote: Warp Prism drops against Terran still have to deal with the fact that, even in the best case scenario, you're not going to kill anything except supply depots and addons. Your gateway units can't catch up to/kill fleeing SCVs and everything else can just lift off.
If a warpin has caused Terran to lift off his buildings, Terran has already lost the game.
This isn't universally true. In the midgame, if Protoss spends a ton of resources on a prism and warping in a ton of units, Terran might be able to counterattack the natural. If they kill the natural and force Protoss into their main they'll easily win despite the unanswered drop. The reverse of this is certainly not true, if you completely ignore even a two-dropship Terran drop for any length of time you're going to lose the game even if you kill every expansion and leave them turtling in their main.
In the late game, while it will certainly cost Terran a lot of minerals to replace a bunch of depots, if both sides are supply capped and not currently ramming their armies together the production disruption as the production facilities are relocated might not even matter.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Someone has never played Midgame Zerg. Roaches and corruptors are by far the least supply effective units in the game.
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates.
Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played
If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close.
Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates.
This is totally irrelevant. It isn't like they added the Warp Prism to the game with this patch, they just made it faster when it isn't upgraded. Thus this kind of strategy always existed, and anyone investing into 31 games is going to be able to afford Warp Prism Speed.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
Protoss gateway is less supply effective. The rest of the race is ridiculously supply effective to counteract this.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read.
I hope you get banned...you don't quote someone's post and just insult it without giving your reason. We all know what race you play.
On June 22 2013 21:57 AxionSteel wrote:
On June 22 2013 21:45 Destructicon wrote: Ok I can understand some of the terran qq related too WP all-ins and WP based pressures in the early and mid game, but someone will have too enlighten me how the hell is late game TvP impossible to win. Very little has actually changed, protoss have gotten Tempest, but I've yet too see enough games that I'd consider it a problem, and of the few games I have seen they don't seem that bad, this all coming from a terran perspective.
.
In the late game (many) terrans have always had the belief that Protoss has always been far too powerful in the late game, with its storm/collossus deathball and mass warpin reinforcements, yet a number of protoss also believe terran to be the one who is imbalanced late game with its mass ghost/viking combo. I honestly have no idea how Terran could deal with mass tempests, they are just insanely strong, yet I've never seen one protoss be able to get many of them in a late game situation, so I can't exactly complain about them.
"PROTOSS TOO STRONG, MASS TEMPEST" is the same thing as "TERRAN TOO STRONG, MASS BATTLECRUISERS"
Yeah, if you get a fuckload of battlecruisers, Protoss can't stop you, but no one gets to that point unless you are ahead of the Protoss by like 3 bases (and in that case, you should just steamroll him no matter what u build)
Saying "mass tempest, Protoss late game army unstoppable" is a very bad argument and a unlikely one.
Honestly, Ghost outrange HT so a Terran really decides the game with his micro, if he can emp the HT / army before the Storms come in, Protoss army just dies. Terran army can fight a battle, and retreat if its not going his way, but Protoss army cannot because of concussive shells. The game is decided by the Terran player which is what many Protoss players are complaining about in PvT late game.
Yup, because someone stating that missile turrets are overpowered and causing terrans to be placed in leagues too high for their skill level clearly warrants an intelligent response. Judging by your posts in this thread, you're as biased as anyone else.
Lol I'm not the only one, even Day9 said missile turrets were absurdly powerful near when SC2 came out.
Second of all I never said missile turrets caused Terran to be placed leagues too high. I was implying that Terran's mobility is imbalanced and now when Protoss has a piece of the pie, even though Terran defense against drops is far better than any other race, they complain.
On June 22 2013 19:16 SolidZeal wrote: Well, the meching player is more likely to have well placed widow mines that will stop the WP in it's tracks and give Terran an edge because of the wasted sentries, but I agree that this change will only promote WM usage, not mech persay.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
You only need 1 turret in SC2 to stop anything and you have Mules. Terran needs to stop whining, its not at all powerful in the slightest. The only difference is Protoss is a lot more flexible than 3base 1a deathballs, which is something we should really be promoting.
As said before, while I am afraid for the all-in potential I am not per se against the warp prism change. However the amount of misinformation thrown around here is impressive.
Apparently we now only need 1 turret to stop warp prism play? That is just bullshit. If that was the case I wouldn't be afraid for all-ins, you need fast turrets against toss anyway in HotS against all their other all-ins. But the idea that one turret would do enough dps against a warp prism to take it out before it left its range, or that it even has the range to cover your base is just weird.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Wow someone is mad? Luckily then all those terrans will drop to their rightful place, right? It isn't like except in bronze there are more toss players in every league than terran players, oh wait, it is exactly like that.
One turret really won't do anything to stop warp prism play. Sure a turret ring does, but by the time a turret ring becomes realistic this change is irrelevant, since then the toss should have warp prism speed anyway. Anyway does that also mean toss won't complain about hellbats anymore? Since you can just make a cannon ring around your base?
@SsDrKosS, so that is also for you, static defenses are fairly irrelevant against most types of warp prism play until you can completely ring your base with them. Also such comparisons are always doubtful. Sure turrets have good dps, but they can't shoot ground units, and we don't have planetary nexus. (Please don't say that we should make our main CC into a PF).
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. .
If you need more than 2-3 turrets to defend drop play your turret positioning is atrocious, and you need to learn it. Almost no Terrans understand the science of Turret positioning because before now, it just wasn't necessary. Now you have to learn it and maybe your TvZ will also improve as a result instead of blindly building turrets without a second thought.
I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Not to mention even if 2-3 turrets would be all it would take (how many bases is that btw in your game, which seems to have a bit more turret range), it still wouldn't be realistic against all-ins. Later, sure. But by then nothing has changed compared to before patch anyway.
Btw it is really easy to call everyone horrible regarding turret placement, I can do it too: Protoss need to understand the science of blinking. They would win every game if they weren't so horrible with it. That statement is as useful as yours, in other words: please enlighten us how we all place our turrets wrong, and where we should place them instead.
To everyone stating that turrets cant handle warp prisms.. You really need to play this game more if you actually believe that
Yeah if he switched to warp mode on top of a missile turret, sure. But really that would be pretty retarded of that player. And the reason I am dubious about this buff is not because I don't think I can handle warp prisms, it is because right now protoss has a shitton of all-ins. And with this change it has a shitton + several more around warp prisms, where dropping sentries, FF'ing ramp, warping in units is the one I am most afraid for. If that was the only thing I wouldn't be worried, but combine it with all the other all-ins that are very hard to distinguish and i am worried.
Turret placement doesn't require mechanics, it requires thinking. Sure if everyone had blink micro like automaton2000 that would be a legitimate statement.
You also cut off this part of my quote
That statement alone may confuse you, but that's because most players can't figure shit out on their own and think if a pro hasn't done it already it can't exist and therefore won't bother learning it. Much like how I never saw anyone use simcity until pros started doing it a lot.
What can I say, my statement has confused you because the science of turret positioning in SC2 has never ever mattered until now. To you it seems impossible only because you've never seen a pro do it before, therefore it does not exist.
3 turrets is more than enough to cover two bases, much like how 3 terrible bw turrets (that couldn't stop a paper aeroplane even if it tried) was enough to defend almost every single cheese Protoss could do.
Much like how everyone complained about the iEchoic build while I was busy getting free wins with proper simcity. Afterwards all the Zergs started using it and SjoW won a tournament using it, but until then everyone thought "its impossible to defend against hellions/reapers" because apparently simcity just didn't exist.
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates.
Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played
If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close.
Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates.
This is totally irrelevant. It isn't like they added the Warp Prism to the game with this patch, they just made it faster when it isn't upgraded. Thus this kind of strategy always existed, and anyone investing into 31 games is going to be able to afford Warp Prism Speed.
Someone asks for an example of a decent tournament where the protoss players is on 30+ gates, I give it, you complain that it is irrelevant. Then you should have said that to the one asking for example, not to me.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. .
If you need more than 2-3 turrets to defend drop play your turret positioning is atrocious, and you need to learn it. Almost no Terrans understand the science of Turret positioning because before now, it just wasn't necessary. Now you have to learn it and maybe your TvZ will also improve as a result instead of blindly building turrets without a second thought.
I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Not to mention even if 2-3 turrets would be all it would take (how many bases is that btw in your game, which seems to have a bit more turret range), it still wouldn't be realistic against all-ins. Later, sure. But by then nothing has changed compared to before patch anyway.
Btw it is really easy to call everyone horrible regarding turret placement, I can do it too: Protoss need to understand the science of blinking. They would win every game if they weren't so horrible with it. That statement is as useful as yours, in other words: please enlighten us how we all place our turrets wrong, and where we should place them instead.
To everyone stating that turrets cant handle warp prisms.. You really need to play this game more if you actually believe that
Yeah if he switched to warp mode on top of a missile turret, sure. But really that would be pretty retarded of that player. And the reason I am dubious about this buff is not because I don't think I can handle warp prisms, it is because right now protoss has a shitton of all-ins. And with this change it has a shitton + several more around warp prisms, where dropping sentries, FF'ing ramp, warping in units is the one I am most afraid for. If that was the only thing I wouldn't be worried, but combine it with all the other all-ins that are very hard to distinguish and i am worried.
Turret placement doesn't require mechanics, it requires thinking. Sure if everyone had blink micro like automaton2000 that would be a legitimate statement.
That statement alone may confuse you, but that's because most players can't figure shit out on their own and think if a pro hasn't done it already it can't exist and therefore won't bother learning it. Much like how I never saw anyone use simcity until pros started doing it a lot.
What can I say, my statement has confused you because the science of turret positioning in SC2 has never ever mattered until now. To you it seems impossible only because you've never seen a pro do it before, therefore it does not exist.
3 turrets is more than enough to cover two bases, much like how 3 terrible bw turrets (that couldn't stop a paper aeroplane even if it tried) was enough to defend almost every single cheese Protoss could do.
Much like how everyone complained about the iEchoic build while I was busy getting free wins with proper simcity. Afterwards all the Zergs started using it and SjoW won a tournament using it, but until then everyone thought "its impossible to defend against hellions/reapers" because apparently simcity just didn't exist.
Sorry but proper blink use requires thinking. I would compare it to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232. But yeah when people don't see pros using proper blinks it does not exist. And as long as protoss keep thinking that they deserve to lose every game.
For people not getting it, that isn't serious. However it is to show the huge fallacy in the argument presented with apparently 3 turrets across 2 bases able to stop every kind of warp prism play: They just claim it without anything to back it up. They claim every single terran has horrible turret place placement, without telling how it would be horrible, let alone how it should be done better. It is just blindly screaming that it is done wrong.
Btw do take into account a warp prism can fly right over a missile turret easily.
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates.
Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played
If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close.
Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates.
This is totally irrelevant. It isn't like they added the Warp Prism to the game with this patch, they just made it faster when it isn't upgraded. Thus this kind of strategy always existed, and anyone investing into 31 games is going to be able to afford Warp Prism Speed.
Someone asks for an example of a decent tournament where the protoss players is on 30+ gates, I give it, you complain that it is irrelevant. Then you should have said that to the one asking for example, not to me.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. .
If you need more than 2-3 turrets to defend drop play your turret positioning is atrocious, and you need to learn it. Almost no Terrans understand the science of Turret positioning because before now, it just wasn't necessary. Now you have to learn it and maybe your TvZ will also improve as a result instead of blindly building turrets without a second thought.
I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Not to mention even if 2-3 turrets would be all it would take (how many bases is that btw in your game, which seems to have a bit more turret range), it still wouldn't be realistic against all-ins. Later, sure. But by then nothing has changed compared to before patch anyway.
Btw it is really easy to call everyone horrible regarding turret placement, I can do it too: Protoss need to understand the science of blinking. They would win every game if they weren't so horrible with it. That statement is as useful as yours, in other words: please enlighten us how we all place our turrets wrong, and where we should place them instead.
To everyone stating that turrets cant handle warp prisms.. You really need to play this game more if you actually believe that
Yeah if he switched to warp mode on top of a missile turret, sure. But really that would be pretty retarded of that player. And the reason I am dubious about this buff is not because I don't think I can handle warp prisms, it is because right now protoss has a shitton of all-ins. And with this change it has a shitton + several more around warp prisms, where dropping sentries, FF'ing ramp, warping in units is the one I am most afraid for. If that was the only thing I wouldn't be worried, but combine it with all the other all-ins that are very hard to distinguish and i am worried.
Turret placement doesn't require mechanics, it requires thinking. Sure if everyone had blink micro like automaton2000 that would be a legitimate statement.
You also cut off this part of my quote
That statement alone may confuse you, but that's because most players can't figure shit out on their own and think if a pro hasn't done it already it can't exist and therefore won't bother learning it. Much like how I never saw anyone use simcity until pros started doing it a lot.
What can I say, my statement has confused you because the science of turret positioning in SC2 has never ever mattered until now. To you it seems impossible only because you've never seen a pro do it before, therefore it does not exist.
3 turrets is more than enough to cover two bases, much like how 3 terrible bw turrets (that couldn't stop a paper aeroplane even if it tried) was enough to defend almost every single cheese Protoss could do.
Much like how everyone complained about the iEchoic build while I was busy getting free wins with proper simcity. Afterwards all the Zergs started using it and SjoW won a tournament using it, but until then everyone thought "its impossible to defend against hellions/reapers" because apparently simcity just didn't exist.
Sorry but proper blink use requires thinking. I would compare it to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232. But yeah when people don't see pros using proper blinks it does not exist. And as long as protoss keep thinking that they deserve to lose every game.
For people not getting it, that isn't serious. However it is to show the huge fallacy in the argument presented with apparently 3 turrets across 2 bases able to stop every kind of warp prism play: They just claim it without anything to back it up. They claim every single terran has horrible turret place placement, without telling how it would be horrible, let alone how it should be done better. It is just blindly screaming that it is done wrong.
Btw do take into account a warp prism can fly right over a missile turret easily.
Spoken like a true whiner who can't figure things out for themselves and has to wait for a pro to teach them how to do it.
If someone had the mechanics of automaton2000 yes I would agree with you, however nobody does and nobody will. If you spend time blinking stalkers, you are most likely compensating your macro, in which case it is pointless because macro is the highest priority element.
Knowing where to build turrets does not impede on any other elements on the game. If I had time I would create an article just like I did with the simcity one and spend time researching, however I won't be buying HotS because the current design of SC2 just doesn't sit well with me.
I am going to requote another thing I said
sluggaslamoo wrote:Because of the insane DPS of Missile Turrets in SC2, people never realised that turrets actually have utility beyond being a building which kills air units. The thought of "If it doesn't outright kill/stop the prism, it must be useless" just boggles my mind.
This is exactly what is happening, you need some pro to teach you how to do it because you are incapable of figuring things out on your own. You need everything to be spoon fed to you, its a pretty sad state to be in.
On June 23 2013 05:16 Sissors wrote: I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
There will be specific sections in the main and natural which should have more than enough coverage to deal with drops.
The most likely positions will be near the middle of your main, and two covering the most critical spaces where the prism should be traveling. While the prism is playing Where's Wally to find a pocket of ground where it can actually deploy, its half dead and you have marines built from your barracks to finish it off and deal with the measly first warp in that will serve as a complete waste of resources and time for Protoss.
Although I'm not sure why I'm wasting time on a lost cause, its obvious that you are going to ask me to spoon feed you where to place these turrets, or wait for a pro to show you without learning on your own.
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates.
Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played
If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close.
Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates.
This is totally irrelevant. It isn't like they added the Warp Prism to the game with this patch, they just made it faster when it isn't upgraded. Thus this kind of strategy always existed, and anyone investing into 31 games is going to be able to afford Warp Prism Speed.
Someone asks for an example of a decent tournament where the protoss players is on 30+ gates, I give it, you complain that it is irrelevant. Then you should have said that to the one asking for example, not to me.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. .
If you need more than 2-3 turrets to defend drop play your turret positioning is atrocious, and you need to learn it. Almost no Terrans understand the science of Turret positioning because before now, it just wasn't necessary. Now you have to learn it and maybe your TvZ will also improve as a result instead of blindly building turrets without a second thought.
I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Not to mention even if 2-3 turrets would be all it would take (how many bases is that btw in your game, which seems to have a bit more turret range), it still wouldn't be realistic against all-ins. Later, sure. But by then nothing has changed compared to before patch anyway.
Btw it is really easy to call everyone horrible regarding turret placement, I can do it too: Protoss need to understand the science of blinking. They would win every game if they weren't so horrible with it. That statement is as useful as yours, in other words: please enlighten us how we all place our turrets wrong, and where we should place them instead.
To everyone stating that turrets cant handle warp prisms.. You really need to play this game more if you actually believe that
Yeah if he switched to warp mode on top of a missile turret, sure. But really that would be pretty retarded of that player. And the reason I am dubious about this buff is not because I don't think I can handle warp prisms, it is because right now protoss has a shitton of all-ins. And with this change it has a shitton + several more around warp prisms, where dropping sentries, FF'ing ramp, warping in units is the one I am most afraid for. If that was the only thing I wouldn't be worried, but combine it with all the other all-ins that are very hard to distinguish and i am worried.
Turret placement doesn't require mechanics, it requires thinking. Sure if everyone had blink micro like automaton2000 that would be a legitimate statement.
You also cut off this part of my quote
That statement alone may confuse you, but that's because most players can't figure shit out on their own and think if a pro hasn't done it already it can't exist and therefore won't bother learning it. Much like how I never saw anyone use simcity until pros started doing it a lot.
What can I say, my statement has confused you because the science of turret positioning in SC2 has never ever mattered until now. To you it seems impossible only because you've never seen a pro do it before, therefore it does not exist.
3 turrets is more than enough to cover two bases, much like how 3 terrible bw turrets (that couldn't stop a paper aeroplane even if it tried) was enough to defend almost every single cheese Protoss could do.
Much like how everyone complained about the iEchoic build while I was busy getting free wins with proper simcity. Afterwards all the Zergs started using it and SjoW won a tournament using it, but until then everyone thought "its impossible to defend against hellions/reapers" because apparently simcity just didn't exist.
Sorry but proper blink use requires thinking. I would compare it to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232. But yeah when people don't see pros using proper blinks it does not exist. And as long as protoss keep thinking that they deserve to lose every game.
For people not getting it, that isn't serious. However it is to show the huge fallacy in the argument presented with apparently 3 turrets across 2 bases able to stop every kind of warp prism play: They just claim it without anything to back it up. They claim every single terran has horrible turret place placement, without telling how it would be horrible, let alone how it should be done better. It is just blindly screaming that it is done wrong.
Btw do take into account a warp prism can fly right over a missile turret easily.
Spoken like a true whiner who can't figure things out for themselves and has to wait for a pro to teach them how to do it.
If someone had the mechanics of automaton2000 yes I would agree with you, however nobody does and nobody will. If you spend time blinking stalkers, you are most likely compensating your macro, in which case it is pointless because macro is the highest priority element.
Knowing where to build turrets does not impede on any other elements on the game. If I had time I would create an article just like I did with the simcity one and spend time researching, however I won't be buying HotS because the current design of SC2 just doesn't sit well with me.
sluggaslamoo wrote:Because of the insane DPS of Missile Turrets in SC2, people never realised that turrets actually have utility beyond being a building which kills air units. The thought of "If it doesn't outright kill/stop the prism, it must be useless" just boggles my mind.
This is exactly what is happening, you need some pro to teach you how to do it because you are incapable of figuring things out on your own. You need everything to be spoon fed to you, its a pretty sad state to be in.
On June 23 2013 05:16 Sissors wrote: I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
There will be specific sections in the main and natural which should have more than enough coverage to deal with drops.
The most likely positions will be near the middle of your main, and two covering the most critical spaces where the prism should be traveling. While the prism is playing Where's Wally to find a pocket of ground where it can actually deploy, its half dead and you have marines built from your barracks to finish it off and deal with the measly first warp in that will serve as a complete waste of resources and time for Protoss.
Although I'm not sure why I'm wasting time on a lost cause, its obvious that you are going to ask me to spoon feed you where to place these turrets, or wait for a pro to show you without learning on your own.
Well at least you give some information how every terran player is doing it horribly wrong, but it is still pretty much: NANANANANANA I KNOW BETTER AND I WONT TELL YOU BECAUSE I WONT SPOON FEED YOU YOU SHOULD L2P NOOB AND NANANANA I AM BETTER.
That seems to be a fairly accurate summary of your posts.
Anyway regarding placing a turret in the middle of your base. Yeah can sometimes be useful. But not nearly as much as what you like to think, and certainly not one of the first places to put one. You seem to enormously overestimate the range of a turret. One in the middle of your base will never cover the edges.
Aditionally it is quite ridiculous to claim turrets at the edge waste 50% of their coverage completely. Remember the goal is to kill the prism before you have an army in your base. So by far the best situation is when the prism is shot down before it can deploy an army. Even if the turret has as much range as you think it has, it would still mean the prism can easily get to your base and drop everything off, probably even a round of warpins, since it is only firing at the very edge of its range. While if you put it on the edge of your base the prism first has to fly through a load of missiles from the turret.
Of course in the beginning you don't have resources to put a turret ring around your edge. And with all the all-ins of toss there are more important locations: Your mineral line, which has a three fold usage: It holds of possible oracle/phoenix play, they detect DTs, keeping your mineral line alive (by far the most important against early DTs, losing two add-ons isnt a big deal, having your mineral line gone is), and they make sure a warp prism can't directly drop zealots in your mineral line. If you have a turret in the center it won't cover your mineral line generally. Even if it does, it won't even get through its shields.
Next important location is the entrance to your natural, to detect DTs and also nice to make sure there isn't an observer above your army.
Anyway before you continue your tirades I would advice you to really have a look at missile turret range. One in the center of your base simply won't do anything besides covering your central buildings from direct warp-ins right on top of them. And that is early-mid game the last thing I would be worried about.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
On June 23 2013 03:39 Axxis wrote: I'd like to see one of you Terrans post a replay of a decent tournament (doesn't necessarily have to be pro either) Diamond + with a protoss player on 30+ gates.
Thorzain vs Hasuobs, HSC VII, now played
If Hasuobs doesnt have 30 gates, he is at least damn close.
Edit: Just confirmed by casters to be 31 gates.
This is totally irrelevant. It isn't like they added the Warp Prism to the game with this patch, they just made it faster when it isn't upgraded. Thus this kind of strategy always existed, and anyone investing into 31 games is going to be able to afford Warp Prism Speed.
Someone asks for an example of a decent tournament where the protoss players is on 30+ gates, I give it, you complain that it is irrelevant. Then you should have said that to the one asking for example, not to me.
He is right, turrets should be adjusted, bonus to mechanical damage? Cheaper cost? Faster build times? Higher rate of fire? I'm actually lost on this one.
The difference is Terran needs to just make a fucking turret or two instead of only having to have 1 viking to prevent all drop play which is just retarded game design. This is not hard people, its not 50 turrets like in the previous game, Terrans will definitely be able to cope with no problems. The game has been imbalanced within this element of the game since beta, Blizzard is now just balancing it and Terran players will have to cope with having to get ranked within their rightful place, only because this imbalance is what got them their undeserved rank in the first place.
Biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. .
If you need more than 2-3 turrets to defend drop play your turret positioning is atrocious, and you need to learn it. Almost no Terrans understand the science of Turret positioning because before now, it just wasn't necessary. Now you have to learn it and maybe your TvZ will also improve as a result instead of blindly building turrets without a second thought.
I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Not to mention even if 2-3 turrets would be all it would take (how many bases is that btw in your game, which seems to have a bit more turret range), it still wouldn't be realistic against all-ins. Later, sure. But by then nothing has changed compared to before patch anyway.
Btw it is really easy to call everyone horrible regarding turret placement, I can do it too: Protoss need to understand the science of blinking. They would win every game if they weren't so horrible with it. That statement is as useful as yours, in other words: please enlighten us how we all place our turrets wrong, and where we should place them instead.
To everyone stating that turrets cant handle warp prisms.. You really need to play this game more if you actually believe that
Yeah if he switched to warp mode on top of a missile turret, sure. But really that would be pretty retarded of that player. And the reason I am dubious about this buff is not because I don't think I can handle warp prisms, it is because right now protoss has a shitton of all-ins. And with this change it has a shitton + several more around warp prisms, where dropping sentries, FF'ing ramp, warping in units is the one I am most afraid for. If that was the only thing I wouldn't be worried, but combine it with all the other all-ins that are very hard to distinguish and i am worried.
Turret placement doesn't require mechanics, it requires thinking. Sure if everyone had blink micro like automaton2000 that would be a legitimate statement.
You also cut off this part of my quote
That statement alone may confuse you, but that's because most players can't figure shit out on their own and think if a pro hasn't done it already it can't exist and therefore won't bother learning it. Much like how I never saw anyone use simcity until pros started doing it a lot.
What can I say, my statement has confused you because the science of turret positioning in SC2 has never ever mattered until now. To you it seems impossible only because you've never seen a pro do it before, therefore it does not exist.
3 turrets is more than enough to cover two bases, much like how 3 terrible bw turrets (that couldn't stop a paper aeroplane even if it tried) was enough to defend almost every single cheese Protoss could do.
Much like how everyone complained about the iEchoic build while I was busy getting free wins with proper simcity. Afterwards all the Zergs started using it and SjoW won a tournament using it, but until then everyone thought "its impossible to defend against hellions/reapers" because apparently simcity just didn't exist.
Sorry but proper blink use requires thinking. I would compare it to this topic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232. But yeah when people don't see pros using proper blinks it does not exist. And as long as protoss keep thinking that they deserve to lose every game.
For people not getting it, that isn't serious. However it is to show the huge fallacy in the argument presented with apparently 3 turrets across 2 bases able to stop every kind of warp prism play: They just claim it without anything to back it up. They claim every single terran has horrible turret place placement, without telling how it would be horrible, let alone how it should be done better. It is just blindly screaming that it is done wrong.
Btw do take into account a warp prism can fly right over a missile turret easily.
Spoken like a true whiner who can't figure things out for themselves and has to wait for a pro to teach them how to do it.
If someone had the mechanics of automaton2000 yes I would agree with you, however nobody does and nobody will. If you spend time blinking stalkers, you are most likely compensating your macro, in which case it is pointless because macro is the highest priority element.
Knowing where to build turrets does not impede on any other elements on the game. If I had time I would create an article just like I did with the simcity one and spend time researching, however I won't be buying HotS because the current design of SC2 just doesn't sit well with me.
I am going to requote another thing I said
sluggaslamoo wrote:Because of the insane DPS of Missile Turrets in SC2, people never realised that turrets actually have utility beyond being a building which kills air units. The thought of "If it doesn't outright kill/stop the prism, it must be useless" just boggles my mind.
This is exactly what is happening, you need some pro to teach you how to do it because you are incapable of figuring things out on your own. You need everything to be spoon fed to you, its a pretty sad state to be in.
On June 23 2013 05:16 Sissors wrote: I'll ignore the rest of your missile turret rant for now. But the idea that with 2-3 turrets you can defend warp prism play is simply hilarious. It is flat out impossible. Warp prisms are quite strong, so can take quite a bit of hits, and for most of their usage they really don't need to hover right over the mineral line.
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
There will be specific sections in the main and natural which should have more than enough coverage to deal with drops.
The most likely positions will be near the middle of your main, and two covering the most critical spaces where the prism should be traveling. While the prism is playing Where's Wally to find a pocket of ground where it can actually deploy, its half dead and you have marines built from your barracks to finish it off and deal with the measly first warp in that will serve as a complete waste of resources and time for Protoss.
Although I'm not sure why I'm wasting time on a lost cause, its obvious that you are going to ask me to spoon feed you where to place these turrets, or wait for a pro to show you without learning on your own.
Well at least you give some information how every terran player is doing it horribly wrong, but it is still pretty much: NANANANANANA I KNOW BETTER AND I WONT TELL YOU BECAUSE I WONT SPOON FEED YOU YOU SHOULD L2P NOOB AND NANANANA I AM BETTER.
That seems to be a fairly accurate summary of your posts.
Anyway regarding placing a turret in the middle of your base. Yeah can sometimes be useful. But not nearly as much as what you like to think, and certainly not one of the first places to put one. You seem to enormously overestimate the range of a turret. One in the middle of your base will never cover the edges.
Aditionally it is quite ridiculous to claim turrets at the edge waste 50% of their coverage completely. Remember the goal is to kill the prism before you have an army in your base. So by far the best situation is when the prism is shot down before it can deploy an army. Even if the turret has as much range as you think it has, it would still mean the prism can easily get to your base and drop everything off, probably even a round of warpins, since it is only firing at the very edge of its range. While if you put it on the edge of your base the prism first has to fly through a load of missiles from the turret.
Of course in the beginning you don't have resources to put a turret ring around your edge. And with all the all-ins of toss there are more important locations: Your mineral line, which has a three fold usage: It holds of possible oracle/phoenix play, they detect DTs, keeping your mineral line alive (by far the most important against early DTs, losing two add-ons isnt a big deal, having your mineral line gone is), and they make sure a warp prism can't directly drop zealots in your mineral line. If you have a turret in the center it won't cover your mineral line generally. Even if it does, it won't even get through its shields.
Next important location is the entrance to your natural, to detect DTs and also nice to make sure there isn't an observer above your army.
Anyway before you continue your tirades I would advice you to really have a look at missile turret range. One in the center of your base simply won't do anything besides covering your central buildings from direct warp-ins right on top of them. And that is early-mid game the last thing I would be worried about.
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Strategy threads are always a strange experience for me because so often the revolve around these hypothetical scenarios which I can't imagine happening with any consistency.
This is not to say that there will not be games where speed prisms lead to victory but will it ever be a standard play? I still remember back in WoL when the two immortal drop play was popular for a split second but in the end it didn't take a tactical genius to realize the risk/reward formula was off. Protoss NEEDS it's tech units to have any chance in standard combat so if the shuttle is destroyed the game is essentially over and as I have stated earlier in this thread, zealots and stalkers are terrible at killing buildings/workers.
Put simply, drop play for Protoss outside the late game or without a major advantage exists somewhere around the same power level as rushing DTs in my estimation and anybody who has played Protoss at a decent level knows that isn't high praise.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
This actually makes a very good point, I never looked at it this way. But you are are forgetting one thing here - terran also has the highest DPS of all races. High dps units scale extremely well with mass.
A protoss army will ALWAYS lose to MMM even at 200 supply - the only things that balance this out are colossus and storm.
stalkers are one of the lowest dps units in the game and zealots like all melee units get worse as they have to fight vs high numbers of ranged units (also: hellbats).
And terrans complaining about the warpprisms is so ridiculous, protoss has NO WAY of catching speedvacs unless he sees them coming and even then he will trade very unefficiently vs the drops unless HT or colo are there.
a terran faced with a warpprism can easiliy dispatch speedvac with marines that can not only kill the warpprism but also trade efficiently vs anything that may be warped in.
So the terrans really just need to learn to scout a bit better, which is what protoss have to do since HotS while gateway units will still suck vs mmm...
The turret isn't to blow up the prism as soon as it sees it. The turret zones out the prism from warping in units. Protoss is forced to keep a handful of stalkers in base (costing 125/50, mind you) or lose the game by bleeding out to medivac drops that deal 80DPS or hellbat havoc. Being able to shut down all air and drop harass (yes, even Oracles that cost 150/150 and a lousy deadend techroute) with 2-3 turrets and a handful of marines is a luxury that only Terrans have, and they're complaining that they can't catch a fleeing warp prism without having to stim to do so. What is this nonsense?
And before the issue of dead space comes up, Terrans can produce a single viking without having to invest anything extra, not even addon time, while protoss is helpless to clear dead space because the gas investment is too high during the colossus/storm teching phase of the early midgame.
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE parameter, NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
When a bomber enters the city limits, it's already too late for the SAM to work it's magic, the bomber would have already dropped its payload by the time the missile hits or worse crash into the city fully loaded. A drop ships are similar to bombers that if the bomber has breached base parameters, it's already too late, as it's likely to be able unload some or all of it's payload (units) and do damage.
Another analogy, you are supposed to sniper shoot the zombies before they enters your house not after they are chasing its residents inside the house!
Funny how every protoss post assumes that late game is equal and delaying production to build 2/3 turrets by base isn't a big deal for terrans. You should really play from the other side to understand, I don't know. The prism buff isn't THAT big of a deal now that they reduced the speed quite a lot (compared to the ridiculousness of the test map), but it's still important because it's now a permanent threat and you can't deal with it once and for all, and will be a problem as you need all your supply to attack and pressure protoss. Once again you can't compare what protoss needs to defend and what terran needs to defend, as their goal in the game is completely different in standard scenarios.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in. I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
The only problem with such turret placement is that it costs a lot for not dealing a huge amount of damage (unlike the Spore vs. Mutalisk) AND you have to cover quite a lot of space. Offense (speed for air units and dropships) is favored too much by Blizzard IMO because they do not think it through.
A warp prism that runs into turret range, deploys and warps in any units is effectively a one use warpprism. A missile turret does 28 DPS and kills a prism in ~7 secs. Warp in takes 5 secs. Each turret zones out warpins in a diameter of 14.
Without warpins, protoss drops are severely limited. 4 zealots are a laughable threat. The really dangerous part of warpprism drops is the clown-car nature, you don't know how much is going to appear (although one can estimate a max with relative certainty).
On June 24 2013 01:22 Nimix wrote: Funny how every protoss post assumes that late game is equal and delaying production to build 2/3 turrets by base isn't a big deal for terrans. You should really play from the other side to understand, I don't know. The prism buff isn't THAT big of a deal now that they reduced the speed quite a lot (compared to the ridiculousness of the test map), but it's still important because it's now a permanent threat and you can't deal with it once and for all, and will be a problem as you need all your supply to attack and pressure protoss. Once again you can't compare what protoss needs to defend and what terran needs to defend, as their goal in the game is completely different in standard scenarios.
Late game PvT is equal because no good argument has ever been put forward as to it being unequal, particularly in HotS where you have Helbats to mitigate chargelots.
Permanent threats are good. They make the other race actually have to stay on their toes rather than just build one Spore/Turret/Cannon and then just forget about it (see DTs, Banshees, Oracles, Void Rays). Medivacs, Mutas and Warp Prisms are the exceptions to this.
I havent played SC2 in almost a year now since switching to dota 2, but how has things in the pVZ matchup changed? im guessing that this warp prism buff is a huge help in pVZ lategame?
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in.
Sadly I have just been told by them I (and every Terran player) is a complete retard for placing turrets at the edge of your main base, and instead you should place them in the center of your base.
But now apparently we aren't supposed to put them at the edge, so I guess he means literally placing a turret outside your main base. Why on earth you would possibly want to do that is a mystery to me. It just gives the protoss free turret kills. Even if the toss would go right over the turret that for some reason he didn't kill yet, a warp prism easily survives that. Sure it gives vision, but there are cheaper options for vision.
But anyway placing turrets early in the game outside your base is so idiotic that the only logical explanation is that I fell for a troll
I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
Sadly If we have to believe the trolls here that also makes him a horrible player, since you should place one turret/spore in the center of your base, and the rest outside your base. (Sure bit harder for zerg, not impossible though).
Edit: See:
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
So according to them you are wrong that you say turrets should be placed at the edge. (Where 'wrong' is the very mild version of bringing it).
Well...45pages of discussion mixed with whine, for the most irrilevant balance patch ever seen in sc2.. there must be some sort of achievement for who have read it all?
On June 24 2013 03:54 InVerno wrote: Well...45pages of discussion mixed with whine, for the most irrilevant balance patch ever seen in sc2.. there must be some sort of achievement for who have read it all?
Not really irrelevant if a unit speed is changed so it can escape multiple units now in all matchups, that easily chased it down before. It is nice though the speed change will not matter to much on levels where kiting is no issue for players, but lower levels the prism will be a survival expert heh.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
On June 24 2013 01:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On June 23 2013 22:50 Sissors wrote:
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in.
Sadly I have just been told by them I (and every Terran player) is a complete retard for placing turrets at the edge of your main base, and instead you should place them in the center of your base.
But now apparently we aren't supposed to put them at the edge, so I guess he means literally placing a turret outside your main base. Why on earth you would possibly want to do that is a mystery to me. It just gives the protoss free turret kills. Even if the toss would go right over the turret that for some reason he didn't kill yet, a warp prism easily survives that. Sure it gives vision, but there are cheaper options for vision.
But anyway placing turrets early in the game outside your base is so idiotic that the only logical explanation is that I fell for a troll
I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
Sadly If we have to believe the trolls here that also makes him a horrible player, since you should place one turret/spore in the center of your base, and the rest outside your base. (Sure bit harder for zerg, not impossible though).
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
So according to them you are wrong that you say turrets should be placed at the edge. (Where 'wrong' is the very mild version of bringing it).
Holy shit, I didn't know how people could be so dense. I don't even know why I bothered to help you when the only people you listen to you are people that agree with you. Why do you even play the game? How is it fun when instead of learning how to deal with something you just complain on forums?
You completely ignored these posts by the way
On June 24 2013 01:40 hummingbird23 wrote: A warp prism that runs into turret range, deploys and warps in any units is effectively a one use warpprism. A missile turret does 28 DPS and kills a prism in ~7 secs. Warp in takes 5 secs. Each turret zones out warpins in a diameter of 14.
Without warpins, protoss drops are severely limited. 4 zealots are a laughable threat. The really dangerous part of warpprism drops is the clown-car nature, you don't know how much is going to appear (although one can estimate a max with relative certainty).
On June 24 2013 00:28 hummingbird23 wrote: The turret isn't to blow up the prism as soon as it sees it. The turret zones out the prism from warping in units. Protoss is forced to keep a handful of stalkers in base (costing 125/50, mind you) or lose the game by bleeding out to medivac drops that deal 80DPS or hellbat havoc. Being able to shut down all air and drop harass (yes, even Oracles that cost 150/150 and a lousy deadend techroute) with 2-3 turrets and a handful of marines is a luxury that only Terrans have, and they're complaining that they can't catch a fleeing warp prism without having to stim to do so. What is this nonsense?
And before the issue of dead space comes up, Terrans can produce a single viking without having to invest anything extra, not even addon time, while protoss is helpless to clear dead space because the gas investment is too high during the colossus/storm teching phase of the early midgame.
All I can say is Sissors, have fun losing games to warp prisms because you would rather whine and complain than actually take a hint. You know figuring out how to deal with stuff is what makes the game fun, otherwise you are just another mindless robot. I seriously don't understand how this game is fun for you, washing the dishes is probably less mind-numbing than what you are doing.
Also, I played all races equally in SC2, you only play Terran, right?
The fact that I am having to repeat myself with quotes over and over again shows that you just don't care, you just want an excuse to whine.
On June 23 2013 18:12 sluggaslamoo wrote: Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
There will be specific sections in the main and natural which should have more than enough coverage to deal with drops.
The most likely positions will be near the middle of your main, and two covering the most critical spaces where the prism should be traveling. While the prism is playing Where's Wally to find a pocket of ground where it can actually deploy, its half dead and you have marines built from your barracks to finish it off and deal with the measly first warp in that will serve as a complete waste of resources and time for Protoss.
Although I'm not sure why I'm wasting time on a lost cause, its obvious that you are going to ask me to spoon feed you where to place these turrets, or wait for a pro to show you without learning on your own.
If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
On June 24 2013 01:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On June 23 2013 22:50 Sissors wrote:
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in.
Sadly I have just been told by them I (and every Terran player) is a complete retard for placing turrets at the edge of your main base, and instead you should place them in the center of your base.
But now apparently we aren't supposed to put them at the edge, so I guess he means literally placing a turret outside your main base. Why on earth you would possibly want to do that is a mystery to me. It just gives the protoss free turret kills. Even if the toss would go right over the turret that for some reason he didn't kill yet, a warp prism easily survives that. Sure it gives vision, but there are cheaper options for vision.
But anyway placing turrets early in the game outside your base is so idiotic that the only logical explanation is that I fell for a troll
I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
Sadly If we have to believe the trolls here that also makes him a horrible player, since you should place one turret/spore in the center of your base, and the rest outside your base. (Sure bit harder for zerg, not impossible though).
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
So according to them you are wrong that you say turrets should be placed at the edge. (Where 'wrong' is the very mild version of bringing it).
Yeah, next they tell us to rush for turret range upgrade to deal with warp prisms. =D ''What opening are you doing?'' ''You know, the usual barracks into engibay for fast turret range upgrade.'' ''Those pesky prisms aren't going to get me now!'' Fucking legit opening right there.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
On June 24 2013 01:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On June 23 2013 22:50 Sissors wrote:
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in.
Sadly I have just been told by them I (and every Terran player) is a complete retard for placing turrets at the edge of your main base, and instead you should place them in the center of your base.
But now apparently we aren't supposed to put them at the edge, so I guess he means literally placing a turret outside your main base. Why on earth you would possibly want to do that is a mystery to me. It just gives the protoss free turret kills. Even if the toss would go right over the turret that for some reason he didn't kill yet, a warp prism easily survives that. Sure it gives vision, but there are cheaper options for vision.
But anyway placing turrets early in the game outside your base is so idiotic that the only logical explanation is that I fell for a troll
I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
Sadly If we have to believe the trolls here that also makes him a horrible player, since you should place one turret/spore in the center of your base, and the rest outside your base. (Sure bit harder for zerg, not impossible though).
Edit: See:
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
So according to them you are wrong that you say turrets should be placed at the edge. (Where 'wrong' is the very mild version of bringing it).
Yeah, next they tell us to rush for turret range upgrade to deal with warp prisms. =D ''What opening are you doing?'' ''You know, the usual barracks into engibay for fast turret range upgrade.'' ''Those pesky prisms aren't going to get me now!'' Fucking legit opening right there.
"What opening are you doing?" "You know the usual 2 bunkers at my ramp to stop warpgate allins"
No good player does a long opening build order without playing reactive.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
On June 24 2013 01:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On June 23 2013 22:50 Sissors wrote:
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in.
Sadly I have just been told by them I (and every Terran player) is a complete retard for placing turrets at the edge of your main base, and instead you should place them in the center of your base.
But now apparently we aren't supposed to put them at the edge, so I guess he means literally placing a turret outside your main base. Why on earth you would possibly want to do that is a mystery to me. It just gives the protoss free turret kills. Even if the toss would go right over the turret that for some reason he didn't kill yet, a warp prism easily survives that. Sure it gives vision, but there are cheaper options for vision.
But anyway placing turrets early in the game outside your base is so idiotic that the only logical explanation is that I fell for a troll
I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
Sadly If we have to believe the trolls here that also makes him a horrible player, since you should place one turret/spore in the center of your base, and the rest outside your base. (Sure bit harder for zerg, not impossible though).
Edit: See:
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
So according to them you are wrong that you say turrets should be placed at the edge. (Where 'wrong' is the very mild version of bringing it).
Yeah, next they tell us to rush for turret range upgrade to deal with warp prisms. =D ''What opening are you doing?'' ''You know, the usual barracks into engibay for fast turret range upgrade.'' ''Those pesky prisms aren't going to get me now!'' Fucking legit opening right there.
"What opening are you doing?" "You know the usual 2 bunkers at my ramp to stop warpgate allins"
No good player does a long opening build order without playing reactive.
Clearly you haven't done the masterful defensive PF Rush~
No allins ever, and your army is free to deal with the warp prism! It's a win/win ;D
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
On June 24 2013 01:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On June 23 2013 22:50 Sissors wrote:
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in.
Sadly I have just been told by them I (and every Terran player) is a complete retard for placing turrets at the edge of your main base, and instead you should place them in the center of your base.
But now apparently we aren't supposed to put them at the edge, so I guess he means literally placing a turret outside your main base. Why on earth you would possibly want to do that is a mystery to me. It just gives the protoss free turret kills. Even if the toss would go right over the turret that for some reason he didn't kill yet, a warp prism easily survives that. Sure it gives vision, but there are cheaper options for vision.
But anyway placing turrets early in the game outside your base is so idiotic that the only logical explanation is that I fell for a troll
I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
Sadly If we have to believe the trolls here that also makes him a horrible player, since you should place one turret/spore in the center of your base, and the rest outside your base. (Sure bit harder for zerg, not impossible though).
Edit: See:
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
So according to them you are wrong that you say turrets should be placed at the edge. (Where 'wrong' is the very mild version of bringing it).
Yeah, next they tell us to rush for turret range upgrade to deal with warp prisms. =D ''What opening are you doing?'' ''You know, the usual barracks into engibay for fast turret range upgrade.'' ''Those pesky prisms aren't going to get me now!'' Fucking legit opening right there.
"What opening are you doing?" "You know the usual 2 bunkers at my ramp to stop warpgate allins"
No good player does a long opening build order without playing reactive.
Clearly you haven't done the masterful defensive PF Rush~
No allins ever, and your army is free to deal with the warp prism! It's a win/win ;D
Nah ... just build two bunkers at the bottom of his ramp and then get the PF at his natural. If he attacks your main just lift that and get out ... you still mine at his natural. All you need to do now is get a ring of turrets around him and make sure he has no probe outside to build a nexus anywhere. If Zerg can proxy-natural-rush Terrans should be able to do so too. Neo Plant S seems like the perfect map for this ... proxy the barracks in the middle and then build the CC after the Barracks finishes. No one ever really scouts there anymore, because no one ever uses that base.
On June 23 2013 08:24 Jevity wrote: Is there a downside to keeping a bunker or two filled with marines/maruaders at each expansion when you play against protoss? Is it that you are keeping supply from your main army/drops?
Yeah, there is. Terran units are the most cost-effective in the game, but they're the least supply-effective. As such, in the late game supply is Terran's most precious resource, and they can't waste it.
Wut? Wat did I just read?
Protoss is the least supply-effective race or a Roach-based Zerg army.
No, Protoss is the most supply-effective race. A stalker beats a roach, and they're both 2 supply. Sure the stalker costs more, but Protoss is more supply-effective, as in X supply of Protoss units is almost always superior to X supply of units from the other two races.
Protoss units are also generally not cost-effective. An immortal loses to 4 roaches or 3 marauders despite being the supposed hard counter to these units and costing about the same amount. However, the immortal is only 4 supply and 4 roaches/3 marauders are 8 and 6 supply. Most Protoss units are like this. I'm pretty sure even a colossus loses to 14 marines, but it beats an equal-supply 6 marines stupidly easily.
Terran is the opposite. Marines are incredibly cheap for their damage output, but they still cost 1 supply each. A stalker beats 2 marines easily, hell so does a roach. Most Terran units are like this. The marauder is 100/25 for 2 supply. Terran has medivacs which basically increase the cost effectiveness of all their units, but eat up supply to do so. The whole race is balanced around this concept. That's why ghosts had to be nerfed repeatedly in WoL and why hellbats are getting nerfed now, they both went against this concept - they were overcosted units that were very supply-effective, going against the whole race philosophy. It's also why strategies like 1/1/1 were so ridiculous, if Terran can keep the economy low and keep the supply cap from being a factor, they will completely dominate the opponent with their far more cost-effective units.
Cost efficiency is almost always preferable, because supply efficiency only matters if you're maxed, otherwise it's just the hidden cost of more supply needing to be built. Cost efficiency lets you dictate the game all the way until that 200/200. What's worse is that Z and T economies outpace P economy by a decent margin in a default macro game, further exasperating the disparity. That's where Protoss spells come in that need to entirely walloff landscape to make things possible.
Exactly right ... supply efficiency is dwarfed by the cost efficiency and the remake efficiency and Zerg blows both other races out of the water with both.
The game isnt really about the units but more about your economy and production capability and if you can hurt those of your opponent you have a clear advantage to win the game. A "slower" game like Broodwar is about supply efficiency, because producing units takes a while, but in SC2 it is ridiculously easy to reach that 200 supply limit.
On June 24 2013 01:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On June 23 2013 22:50 Sissors wrote:
Sigh, the bolded part shows you didn't understand a single thing I said in the last 3 posts. No I don't remember, nor ever did, because that has never been the goal of turret usage. Its only used that way because turrets in SC2 have ridiculous dps and people think you have to kill air units with them.
I never said I was better, just learn to think for yourself instead of whining until a pro shows you how its done.
And again your post is empty of any kind of useful content. You are only very agressive against terrans that we use turrets wrong, but refuse to say how we use them wrong and how we should use them instead. If we don't use them to kill/deny air units (that is effectively the same, if they can't kill air units, they also can't deny their presence in an area; you cannot deny warp prism play by placing a turret in the middle of your base and hoping the protoss is as ill informed as you are regarding its range. He will just use the prism outside turret range, or skims to the edge of it and tanks the damage), why on earth would we make them? Sure one in the front for detection, but besides that it would be fairly useless to make them.
Anyway until you actually get to a higher level than your: LALALLALAA YOU USING THEM WRONG NOOB, level, I guess this is fairly pointless. And it is pretty safe to assume you are just purely trolling and don't actually have a point to make.
Let me give you a hit. Play more tower ambush games, there are literally tons of them on Facebook, F* it, let me spell it out for you.
Optimise the turret's range, put it "out" there way BEFORE THE BASE NOT INSIDE. The inside of the base is for the marine squad to deal with (stim-kite-etc).
That should be a total no brainer IMO. You simply put turrets at the edge of your (main) base to stop the Medivacs or Warp Prisms from even getting their chance to unload stuff or warp in.
Sadly I have just been told by them I (and every Terran player) is a complete retard for placing turrets at the edge of your main base, and instead you should place them in the center of your base.
But now apparently we aren't supposed to put them at the edge, so I guess he means literally placing a turret outside your main base. Why on earth you would possibly want to do that is a mystery to me. It just gives the protoss free turret kills. Even if the toss would go right over the turret that for some reason he didn't kill yet, a warp prism easily survives that. Sure it gives vision, but there are cheaper options for vision.
But anyway placing turrets early in the game outside your base is so idiotic that the only logical explanation is that I fell for a troll
I think Hyun did that really well to counter early Phoenix' from MC today in the Homestory cup by placing a Spore Crawler at both ends of all his mineral lines. That shut the harrass down completely. Being a miser and only putting one of them in the middle of the mineral line does nothing except make it a little harder to harrass.
Sadly If we have to believe the trolls here that also makes him a horrible player, since you should place one turret/spore in the center of your base, and the rest outside your base. (Sure bit harder for zerg, not impossible though).
Edit: See:
Let me guess, you think turrets need to be built on the edge of your base? No wonder you think it is "impossible". When you build a turret on the edge 50% of the coverage is completely wasted, remember prisms need to deploy over ground, they can't deploy units onto air space.
So according to them you are wrong that you say turrets should be placed at the edge. (Where 'wrong' is the very mild version of bringing it).
Yeah, next they tell us to rush for turret range upgrade to deal with warp prisms. =D ''What opening are you doing?'' ''You know, the usual barracks into engibay for fast turret range upgrade.'' ''Those pesky prisms aren't going to get me now!'' Fucking legit opening right there.
"What opening are you doing?" "You know the usual 2 bunkers at my ramp to stop warpgate allins"
No good player does a long opening build order without playing reactive.
Clearly you haven't done the masterful defensive PF Rush~
No allins ever, and your army is free to deal with the warp prism! It's a win/win ;D
And I would think that littering the map full with turrets would have been a better solution. Clearly I was wrong. =P
Going to try to post a serious answer here, which I'll probably regret. Sadly I have become very cynical about the ability of this community to objectively evaluate the state of the game. I can't recall such whining EVERY being acceptable on Team Liquid - this was supposed to be the forum people went to GET AWAY FROM the bnet sc2 forums. But it seems that the whiners like to do their whining in as many places as possible, so perhaps that's partly to blame for this sillyness.
I honestly thought the community was more mature than this. How disappointing. Even people like DWF who I formerly respected very much are susceptible to bias on an extreme level, but most people are of course blind to their own biases. It would be very interesting to see the reactions of these posters to previous and future balance changes. I suppose the silver lining is that this type of mentality will hold these players back and keep them from succeeding.
Also, how many players have now complained about the possible effects of this patch in terms of lategame PvT? I just think it's hilarious, I'm sorry but any Protoss who has 1) 20+ gates 2) a warp prism 3) a brain, also has Gravitic Drive. If I really need to explain this further, I can. But I hope I don't have to.
For these players to be complaining while seemingly being unaware of an upgrade that has been in the game for more than two years is truly astounding.
People need to remember that humans have a proven psychological tendency to be biased, especially when it comes to their own success or failure. The fact that players as talented as DWF sink down to the level of even the whiniest ladder scrubs just goes to show that everyone is susceptible to this. I for one have called things imbalanced in the past that I later realized to be completely fine. So I try to take a step back and think about what is best for the game as a whole rather than for my race.
All the same while I don't believe this buff is going to be all that significant. One of the reasons for this is that although the warp prism might be able to warp in units, it can only escape with 4 units at most, and the rest will most often all die. Medivacs cannot warp in units, but they do hold more initially and can escape with all units used to perform the drop, and can do so quite reliably due to medivac boost.
Additionally, it is common knowledge that Protoss relies more heavily on having their units together in a ball than does Terran or Zerg. Spending too much money on drops that despite causing damage are ultimately lost not only reduces the cost effectiveness of the drop. Dropping 4 zealots is terrible, dropping 8-10 is mediocre but costs 800-1000 minerals that are now not tanking for your main army. I have lost MANY games by being too zealous with speed prisms (no pun intended) and though I manage to do a great deal of damage, still end up unable to stop the frontal push after having spent so much money on dropping melee units.
That being said, little buffs CAN have a huge impact on this game.
If Terran really does suffer, I will be the first one to say I was wrong and that they need buffs. I've never called for nerfs to anything in HOTS: not hellbats, not widow mines, not swarm hosts, not medivac boost, not mutas in zvp, nothing.
People forget SO quickly that in the past things they were 100% sure to be overpowered or unfair turn out to not be such a big deal.
I'm a Protoss player and I was quite convinced Skytoss was OP just by reading the forums without playing the game at all. Now I don't hear a word about it. Not even from Zerg players on ladder. Just an example.
Be rational. But if this patch DOES fuck things up, let's not let this game go the way WOL did for the last year..
The fact that I am having to repeat myself with quotes over and over again shows that you just don't care, you just want an excuse to whine.
The problem isn't that I couldn't read your posts, it is that they don't contain any information. So you can keep repeating them, but that doesn't magically give them content.
You keep claiming all terrans place turrets completely wrong, but refuse to tell how they are placed wrong or where they should be placed. The only posts placed here on where turrets should be placed make no sense whatsoever. Such as in the middle of your base, even though a turret won't have nearly enough range to cover a base from there. Outside your base, which is frankly just stupid and a waste of minerals. And on the edge of your base. Which would make sense if the next one wasnt telling we are all stupid for placing them at the edge of the base.
So I am not asking you to repeat posts without actual content, but to tell how we are all placing them wrong, and how we should place them instead. That's also not whining, that is requesting help from someone who claims to know it better than every terran player in existence.
Obviously I am not worried about mid-late game, I can stop terran doom drops generally fine, I can also intercept a warp prism. But protoss all-ins based arround warp prism will come faster and leave less reaction time, that I am worried about. So then the claims here 2 turrets can cover your main and natural from any warp prism play are interesting. Minus that they don't make sense.
On June 24 2013 14:17 JSK wrote: Going to try to post a serious answer here, which I'll probably regret. Sadly I have become very cynical about the ability of this community to objectively evaluate the state of the game. I can't recall such whining EVERY being acceptable on Team Liquid - this was supposed to be the forum people went to GET AWAY FROM the bnet sc2 forums. But it seems that the whiners like to do their whining in as many places as possible, so perhaps that's partly to blame for this sillyness.
I honestly thought the community was more mature than this. How disappointing. Even people like DWF who I formerly respected very much are susceptible to bias on an extreme level, but most people are of course blind to their own biases. It would be very interesting to see the reactions of these posters to previous and future balance changes. I suppose the silver lining is that this type of mentality will hold these players back and keep them from succeeding.
Also, how many players have now complained about the possible effects of this patch in terms of lategame PvT? I just think it's hilarious, I'm sorry but any Protoss who has 1) 20+ gates 2) a warp prism 3) a brain, also has Gravitic Drive. If I really need to explain this further, I can. But I hope I don't have to.
For these players to be complaining while seemingly being unaware of an upgrade that has been in the game for more than two years is truly astounding.
People need to remember that humans have a proven psychological tendency to be biased, especially when it comes to their own success or failure. The fact that players as talented as DWF sink down to the level of even the whiniest ladder scrubs just goes to show that everyone is susceptible to this. I for one have called things imbalanced in the past that I later realized to be completely fine. So I try to take a step back and think about what is best for the game as a whole rather than for my race.
All the same while I don't believe this buff is going to be all that significant. One of the reasons for this is that although the warp prism might be able to warp in units, it can only escape with 4 units at most, and the rest will most often all die. Medivacs cannot warp in units, but they do hold more initially and can escape with all units used to perform the drop, and can do so quite reliably due to medivac boost.
Additionally, it is common knowledge that Protoss relies more heavily on having their units together in a ball than does Terran or Zerg. Spending too much money on drops that despite causing damage are ultimately lost not only reduces the cost effectiveness of the drop. Dropping 4 zealots is terrible, dropping 8-10 is mediocre but costs 800-1000 minerals that are now not tanking for your main army. I have lost MANY games by being too zealous with speed prisms (no pun intended) and though I manage to do a great deal of damage, still end up unable to stop the frontal push after having spent so much money on dropping melee units.
That being said, little buffs CAN have a huge impact on this game.
If Terran really does suffer, I will be the first one to say I was wrong and that they need buffs. I've never called for nerfs to anything in HOTS: not hellbats, not widow mines, not swarm hosts, not medivac boost, not mutas in zvp, nothing.
People forget SO quickly that in the past things they were 100% sure to be overpowered or unfair turn out to not be such a big deal.
I'm a Protoss player and I was quite convinced Skytoss was OP just by reading the forums without playing the game at all. Now I don't hear a word about it. Not even from Zerg players on ladder. Just an example.
Be rational. But if this patch DOES fuck things up, let's not let this game go the way WOL did for the last year..
1. ROFL 2. Starting a post with several paragraphs of "insulting" the community is bad. 3. The big problem isnt the community but rather Blizzard, who do not realize that making the game faster and faster will make it even more unplayable (speak: random in its results) for lower skill players. 4. Your points are quite moot: 4a. The late game isnt the problem, the early game is. 4b. All dropships have eight slots ... Zealots and Stalkers just take up more space (but less than Hellbats). 4c. Neither the Medivac boost nor this speed boost of the Warp Prism are really good for the game, because they increase the chance for success for early harrass. This is at its core a coinflip which should not be dictating the outcome of the game. 4d. Maybe it is time for Protoss to use the Warp Prism as a shuttle instead of just a warp-in point. If you have more than one of them you can evacuate more than just four units. Simply unloading stuff right on the target (and then flying away) is much faster than transforming into warp-mode, warping in units and then running towards your target. Just get three Warp Prisms with a dozen Zealots and unload them right on the Queen. The surprise factor AND the ability to evacuate all your units after they assassinated a Queen and whatever tech they can really make this a good option.
The fact that I am having to repeat myself with quotes over and over again shows that you just don't care, you just want an excuse to whine.
The problem isn't that I couldn't read your posts, it is that they don't contain any information. So you can keep repeating them, but that doesn't magically give them content.
You keep claiming all terrans place turrets completely wrong, but refuse to tell how they are placed wrong or where they should be placed. The only posts placed here on where turrets should be placed make no sense whatsoever. Such as in the middle of your base, even though a turret won't have nearly enough range to cover a base from there. Outside your base, which is frankly just stupid and a waste of minerals. And on the edge of your base. Which would make sense if the next one wasnt telling we are all stupid for placing them at the edge of the base.
So I am not asking you to repeat posts without actual content, but to tell how we are all placing them wrong, and how we should place them instead. That's also not whining, that is requesting help from someone who claims to know it better than every terran player in existence.
Obviously I am not worried about mid-late game, I can stop terran doom drops generally fine, I can also intercept a warp prism. But protoss all-ins based arround warp prism will come faster and leave less reaction time, that I am worried about. So then the claims here 2 turrets can cover your main and natural from any warp prism play are interesting. Minus that they don't make sense.
Again, I already gave you enough clues, plus posts of other people also giving you clues. Any more and I would literally have to print out a map with all the turret placements which I'm not going to bother doing.
Anyone who has played/watched enough BW would know exactly what I'm talking about, e.g 3 turret placement with the Flash build. Note that it does not outright stop drops, not even close, but its enough to make it not cost effective enough to be worth it and that is all that is required. You could even suicide a shuttle and drop a reaver, and wipe out an entire mineral line in one shot, you still didn't make 10 turrets to prevent it, just 3. In sc2 turrets are 4x more powerful, and M&M can kite zealots all day every day.
You seem to live in this weird world where tech choices and resources come free for Protoss. You don't need to outright prevent things to make it unviable, only make it well, unviable.
Requote again
On June 22 2013 20:12 sluggaslamoo wrote: The most likely positions will be near the middle of your main, and two covering the most critical spaces where the prism should be traveling. While the prism is playing Where's Wally to find a pocket of ground where it can actually deploy, its half dead and you have marines built from your barracks to finish it off and deal with the measly first warp in that will serve as a complete waste of resources and time for Protoss.
This is easily enough information. If its not, clearly you are not even trying, or not capable of thinking for yourself.
If shuttles turn out to be fast enough to get your units to safety after a drop, that would be a big change - you can stick expensive units in there, like DTs.
On June 20 2013 06:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Time to give Overlords boosters.
Overlords should get a counter that increases while they produce creep (stationary) and then can be spent when moving for speed boosts. The logic behind it is that when they poop, they lose weight, so then they can move faster for a while.
On June 22 2013 20:12 sluggaslamoo wrote: The most likely positions will be near the middle of your main, and two covering the most critical spaces where the prism should be traveling. While the prism is playing Where's Wally to find a pocket of ground where it can actually deploy, its half dead and you have marines built from your barracks to finish it off and deal with the measly first warp in that will serve as a complete waste of resources and time for Protoss.
This is easily enough information. If its not, clearly you are not even trying, or not capable of thinking for yourself.
Or plan B, you are just trolling since placing a turret in the middle of your base is a complete waste of resources early in the game. It is only useful later in the game to finish anything that comes over your outer turret wall, and to make sure the warp prism can't then just keep warping in units indefinately.
But anything before late game placing a turret in the middle of your base is a complete waste of resources. It doesn't even cover your mineral line, or in any way prevent a toss from warping in units. So forgive me for going on my own experience, which is confirmed by pro players to be efficient turret locations, instead of a random TL troll. (And yes if you would want to be taken serious you need to make a screenshot of where to put them + roughly their range. Oh and it is nice if we don't need another 3 turrets for oracles + DTs, 6 turrets early game is pretty much autoloss).
On June 20 2013 06:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Time to give Overlords boosters.
Overlords should get a counter that increases while they produce creep (stationary) and then can be spent when moving for speed boosts. The logic behind it is that when they poop, they lose weight, so then they can move faster for a while.
Obviously the Overlords would be losing hp at the same time, because they are shedding a significant amount of weight to increase their speed.
The best solution would be to take out all the buffs to speed which units got with HotS since it isnt ok to have something too strong if all three races get something too strong. Sadly this wont happen, because the Blizzard devs are smoking their "make harrassment stronger at all cost" weed. They do not consider consequences or even logic ... which would tell them that players are not engaging because they are afraid of losing everything and thus rather wait until they have a maxed army. In short: the game has too many units involved in battles and this makes units less durable as a whole and the battle is more risky. Lower unit density on the battlefield and players will engage in "few vs few units" battles a lot more readily because there is a chance to save some of their units through micro.
On June 20 2013 06:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Time to give Overlords boosters.
Overlords should get a counter that increases while they produce creep (stationary) and then can be spent when moving for speed boosts. The logic behind it is that when they poop, they lose weight, so then they can move faster for a while.
Obviously the Overlords would be losing hp at the same time, because they are shedding a significant amount of weight to increase their speed.
The best solution would be to take out all the buffs to speed which units got with HotS since it isnt ok to have something too strong if all three races get something too strong. Sadly this wont happen, because the Blizzard devs are smoking their "make harrassment stronger at all cost" weed. They do not consider consequences or even logic ... which would tell them that players are not engaging because they are afraid of losing everything and thus rather wait until they have a maxed army. In short: the game has too many units involved in battles and this makes units less durable as a whole and the battle is more risky. Lower unit density on the battlefield and players will engage in "few vs few units" battles a lot more readily because there is a chance to save some of their units through micro.
And then reduce all speeds of fast units further, because 3.75 or 4.0 really doesn't matter at all for lowlevel players, not to mention when other units have even more speed anyways. I think having everything at 2.25 and fast units at 2.75 should do the trick.
Then reduce siege tank range to 5 or something like that, because most units can't even see siege tanks before they shoot them (11sight+13range, while most units in the game are between 8 to 10sight) and it's simply too hard to handle for Mr. Bronze guy to scout ahead all the time. I think the best solution would be to make everything melee (similar issues exist for everything else with highrange).
Then we remove cloaked/burrowed units from the game, because they are too hard to handle for Dr. Silver (as we know from fundaymonday, BronzeleagueHeros etc., it's just way too hard to have detection AND sufficient units at once for those guys).
Then we remove everything that does a lot of damage at once from the game, because Miss Gold does simply not have the micro to avoid banelings, siege tanks, storms, widow mines, HSM, fungals, Colossi...
... Hopefully then the game will be easy enough for Mr Rabiator. (well it won't be. we will still have to make it "easier" by introducing retarted unit behavior and limited controloptions...)
Very very minor warp prism speed buff isn't going to do much of anything. It will have little to no effect on the balance of this game, and all the whining is pretty hilarious but also expected from the SC2 community. They could have buffed zealot hp by 1 and people would be up in arms in an outrage because of the word "buff".
All the Terran whine is especially amusing. They got a 40% up-time 70% speedboost to medivacs in HOTS, moving at a massive 4.25 speed for no cost, and yet they whine about an 18.12% speed boost to warp prisms. They also seem to have forgotten a warp prism speed upgrade that has been in the game since launch surpasses this, and is easily attainable by the late game "30 warpgate" scenario anyway.
On June 24 2013 14:17 JSK wrote: Going to try to post a serious answer here, which I'll probably regret. Sadly I have become very cynical about the ability of this community to objectively evaluate the state of the game. I can't recall such whining EVERY being acceptable on Team Liquid - this was supposed to be the forum people went to GET AWAY FROM the bnet sc2 forums. But it seems that the whiners like to do their whining in as many places as possible, so perhaps that's partly to blame for this sillyness.
I honestly thought the community was more mature than this. How disappointing. Even people like DWF who I formerly respected very much are susceptible to bias on an extreme level, but most people are of course blind to their own biases. It would be very interesting to see the reactions of these posters to previous and future balance changes. I suppose the silver lining is that this type of mentality will hold these players back and keep them from succeeding.
Also, how many players have now complained about the possible effects of this patch in terms of lategame PvT? I just think it's hilarious, I'm sorry but any Protoss who has 1) 20+ gates 2) a warp prism 3) a brain, also has Gravitic Drive. If I really need to explain this further, I can. But I hope I don't have to.
For these players to be complaining while seemingly being unaware of an upgrade that has been in the game for more than two years is truly astounding.
People need to remember that humans have a proven psychological tendency to be biased, especially when it comes to their own success or failure. The fact that players as talented as DWF sink down to the level of even the whiniest ladder scrubs just goes to show that everyone is susceptible to this. I for one have called things imbalanced in the past that I later realized to be completely fine. So I try to take a step back and think about what is best for the game as a whole rather than for my race.
All the same while I don't believe this buff is going to be all that significant. One of the reasons for this is that although the warp prism might be able to warp in units, it can only escape with 4 units at most, and the rest will most often all die. Medivacs cannot warp in units, but they do hold more initially and can escape with all units used to perform the drop, and can do so quite reliably due to medivac boost.
Additionally, it is common knowledge that Protoss relies more heavily on having their units together in a ball than does Terran or Zerg. Spending too much money on drops that despite causing damage are ultimately lost not only reduces the cost effectiveness of the drop. Dropping 4 zealots is terrible, dropping 8-10 is mediocre but costs 800-1000 minerals that are now not tanking for your main army. I have lost MANY games by being too zealous with speed prisms (no pun intended) and though I manage to do a great deal of damage, still end up unable to stop the frontal push after having spent so much money on dropping melee units.
That being said, little buffs CAN have a huge impact on this game.
If Terran really does suffer, I will be the first one to say I was wrong and that they need buffs. I've never called for nerfs to anything in HOTS: not hellbats, not widow mines, not swarm hosts, not medivac boost, not mutas in zvp, nothing.
People forget SO quickly that in the past things they were 100% sure to be overpowered or unfair turn out to not be such a big deal.
I'm a Protoss player and I was quite convinced Skytoss was OP just by reading the forums without playing the game at all. Now I don't hear a word about it. Not even from Zerg players on ladder. Just an example.
Be rational. But if this patch DOES fuck things up, let's not let this game go the way WOL did for the last year..
I agree wholeheartedly with the first point of this post. People are ridiculously irrational when it comes to balance patches as if it actually mattered for their own play. I mean, I would mind it if I was actually trying to make money on this game, but I am not. I'm just trying to be the best that I can with the tools that I have. Now some of the tools change but that doesn't change my goal of being as good as possible with the tools I am given. Even if you want to discuss balance, you could just do it in a careless and objective matter as if it only actually affects the pro players, which is true.
I wonder if it could help if Blizzard (or rather SC2ranks actually) would make a ladder for each race just like Company of Heroes. This way, you could measure your progress in relation to your own race, and therefore balance changes wouldn't have any impact on the ladder rank of your own race. I'm not saying it would solve the problem but it could help, and it would be kind of cool and fun to see.
However, I would just like to add that there is nothing in your post that suggests that you are any less biased than the very people you complain about. The use of several words in CAPS and the harsh wording against the other posters whose opinion differ from yours doesn't exactly reek of objectivity and open-mindedness, in my humble opinion.
I agree wholeheartedly with the first point of this post. People are ridiculously irrational when it comes to balance patches as if it actually mattered for their own play. I mean, I would mind it if I was actually trying to make money on this game, but I am not. I'm just trying to be the best that I can with the tools that I have. Now some of the tools change but that doesn't change my goal of being as good as possible with the tools I am given. Even if you want to discuss balance, you could just do it in a careless and objective matter as if it only actually affects the pro players, which is true.
I wonder if it could help if Blizzard (or rather SC2ranks actually) would make a ladder for each race just like Company of Heroes. This way, you could measure your progress in relation to your own race, and therefore balance changes wouldn't have any impact on the ladder rank of your own race. I'm not saying it would solve the problem but it could help, and it would be kind of cool and fun to see.
However, I would just like to add that there is nothing in your post that suggests that you are any less biased than the very people you complain about. The use of several words in CAPS and the harsh wording against the other posters whose opinion differ from yours doesn't exactly reek of objectivity and open-mindedness, in my humble opinion.
Good lord this is brilliant. Fixing balance would be so much easier. O/C there's no need to actually replace the current system, but adding that as a separate feature would be fantastic.
"Hey why are all the 1800mmr zerg playing against 1600mmr terran" - random player "Because widow mines take more skill than tanks to use effectively" - blizz "Oh that makes sense"
I was enjoying watching InControl use speed prisms today on his stream. It looked nice - the prisms were much more mobile and actually had a chance to get away after a drop. But it didn't seem overpowered - the prisms didn't provide enough deterrence to keep the enemy at home, and it never forced any static defenses, so it didn't give him the ability to take thirds he otherwise couldn't take, or any other builds. It just opened up some opportunity for Incontrol to use his micro and made for much more enjoyable games to watch.
With the delayed Stim it became a pain in the ass for me to deal with early dt drops as master terran. Even with stim the Warpprism can still fly around my base cause my marines are as fast as it so they get maybe one volley of and then run after it while it unloads one templar after another...
Never had any problemes with warpprism before but fast dt's + fast warpprism is a real pain to deal with early on in the game...
It can get away really easily and even if you lose dt's or stuff it is back in an instances cause it does not need to go home to pick up other units and it has regenerative shields. Well yeah. I'd really like all that stuff as terran
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
Buff is so minor , that just so ridicoulous,,, Zerg got +40 pop more than Protoss early game and got like 70 drones and Blizzard only buff the warprism? Are you serious Blizzard??
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
On June 25 2013 21:43 Mura19 wrote: Buff is so minor , that just so ridicoulous,,, Zerg got +40 pop more than Protoss early game and got like 70 drones and Blizzard only buff the warprism? Are you serious Blizzard??
Can't really tell if you're trolling or not.
If not, come on, be a little bit thankful atleast. And if Z has +40 supply more than you in the early game, you're doing something wrong.
On June 25 2013 21:43 Mura19 wrote: Buff is so minor , that just so ridicoulous,,, Zerg got +40 pop more than Protoss early game and got like 70 drones and Blizzard only buff the warprism? Are you serious Blizzard??
Can't really tell if you're trolling or not.
If not, come on, be a little bit thankful atleast. And if Z has +40 supply more than you in the early game, you're doing something wrong.
He was speaking in vague generalities.
What counts as the early game? If he considers the first 10-15 minutes the early game then he'd be "accurate" albeit dishonest.
On June 25 2013 22:53 Mura19 wrote: I mean in Proleague when zerg got around 180 pop, Protoss got like 140 or 150 pop max in standard game...
that's true, but that doesn't mean anything. Supply is not generally a good measure for the state of a match. And what you bring up is the perfect example, why this is not a good measure. Why? Zealot cost: 100/0/2 --> 50/0 per supply Sentry cost: 50/100/2 --> 25/50 per supply Stalker cost: 125/50/2 --> 62.5/25 per supply
versus
Zergling cost: 25/0/0.5 --> 50/0 per supply Roach cost: 75/25/2 --> 37.5/12.5 per supply Queen cost: 150/0/2 --> 75/0 per supply
In words: A standard stalker/sentry/tech heavy Protoss has much less supply on the field for the same money than a standard slowteching zerg that relies on zergling/roach/queen. If the Protoss invests into techunits like phoenix, immortal, colossus, void ray this relation gets even more onesided. However that does not mean that a Protoss army is weaker per se. E.g 1stalker beats 1roach, so the 2Protoss supply are better than the 2Zerg supply in that case.
However, if a zerg invests into upgrades/Hive or swarm hosts or mutas early in the midgame (like at 8-10mins), the supplies will usually be much closer. Because then the zerg also relies on units with a higher cost/supply ratio.
Similar effects are also true in PvT (like those 3base maxed MMM+SCV timings against a 160 supply Protoss with heavytech reliance - Colossi and Templar and Upgrades), TvZ (a 3CC opening usually leads to a 10-20 supply lead around 11-12mins for the Terran due to the cheap marine/mine/hellion combo compared to the expensive baneling/mutalisks) and TvT biomech vs mech (Marine Marauder has a higher cost/supply relation than Tankheavy play).
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
Well, I agree with you, but still balance is first and formost winrates. Sure, if the best player in the world happens to play and keeps on dominating and noother Zerg can reproduce his results we probably just have to consider him to be better. If however every Zerg in Code S has 60% winrate vs Terran for some months, then we probably have a balance problem and shouldn't discard that as "winrates mean nothing, every Zerg these days is simply a v beast. Look, some Terran somewhere won a tournament against Zergs."
Statistically balanced is very simply the by far best indicator for balance we have. Things like "composition XY is unbeatable for race Z at timing T" is not, because 99% of those issues simply can be prevented by playing a certain way.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
Well, I agree with you, but still balance is first and formost winrates. Sure, if the best player in the world happens to play and keeps on dominating and noother Zerg can reproduce his results we probably just have to consider him to be better. If however every Zerg in Code S has 60% winrate vs Terran for some months, then we probably have a balance problem and shouldn't discard that as "winrates mean nothing, every Zerg these days is simply a v beast. Look, some Terran somewhere won a tournament against Zergs."
Statistically balanced is very simply the by far best indicator for balance we have. Things like "composition XY is unbeatable for race Z at timing T" is not, because 99% of those issues simply can be prevented by playing a certain way.
Well I agree with you, balance is dedicated by winrates and so on. Still, this is the "warp prism buff" thread, not just balance discussion thread.
Therefore it is the right place to discuss all the other factors too, like is it fun to play? Is it fun to play against? Does it make good games in league X? Will people struggle against it at skill level Y? etc. etc.
People should not be bashed for asking these question and posting their feelings about these topics.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
but coin flip isn't balanced. it's like 51/49 towards the side which was up when the coin was thrown. look it up.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
but coin flip isn't balanced. it's like 51/49 towards the side which was up when the coin was thrown. look it up.
On June 25 2013 22:53 Mura19 wrote: I mean in Proleague when zerg got around 180 pop, Protoss got like 140 or 150 pop max in standard game...
that's true, but that doesn't mean anything. Supply is not generally a good measure for the state of a match. And what you bring up is the perfect example, why this is not a good measure. Why? Zealot cost: 100/0/2 --> 50/0 per supply Sentry cost: 50/100/2 --> 25/50 per supply Stalker cost: 125/50/2 --> 62.5/25 per supply
versus
Zergling cost: 25/0/0.5 --> 50/0 per supply Roach cost: 75/25/2 --> 37.5/12.5 per supply Queen cost: 150/0/2 --> 75/0 per supply
In words: A standard stalker/sentry/tech heavy Protoss has much less supply on the field for the same money than a standard slowteching zerg that relies on zergling/roach/queen. If the Protoss invests into techunits like phoenix, immortal, colossus, void ray this relation gets even more onesided. However that does not mean that a Protoss army is weaker per se. E.g 1stalker beats 1roach, so the 2Protoss supply are better than the 2Zerg supply in that case.
However, if a zerg invests into upgrades/Hive or swarm hosts or mutas early in the midgame (like at 8-10mins), the supplies will usually be much closer. Because then the zerg also relies on units with a higher cost/supply ratio.
Similar effects are also true in PvT (like those 3base maxed MMM+SCV timings against a 160 supply Protoss with heavytech reliance - Colossi and Templar and Upgrades), TvZ (a 3CC opening usually leads to a 10-20 supply lead around 11-12mins for the Terran due to the cheap marine/mine/hellion combo compared to the expensive baneling/mutalisks) and TvT biomech vs mech (Marine Marauder has a higher cost/supply relation than Tankheavy play).
Did you of all people just say that 1 stalker beats 1 roach?
Don't you argue against me constantly about how terrible gateway units are and here you are pointing out that a stalker actually DOES beat a roach 1v1 in the current game. I have no idea what to say...
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
Well, I agree with you, but still balance is first and formost winrates. Sure, if the best player in the world happens to play and keeps on dominating and noother Zerg can reproduce his results we probably just have to consider him to be better. If however every Zerg in Code S has 60% winrate vs Terran for some months, then we probably have a balance problem and shouldn't discard that as "winrates mean nothing, every Zerg these days is simply a v beast. Look, some Terran somewhere won a tournament against Zergs."
Statistically balanced is very simply the by far best indicator for balance we have. Things like "composition XY is unbeatable for race Z at timing T" is not, because 99% of those issues simply can be prevented by playing a certain way.
Well I agree with you, balance is dedicated by winrates and so on. Still, this is the "warp prism buff" thread, not just balance discussion thread.
Therefore it is the right place to discuss all the other factors too, like is it fun to play? Is it fun to play against? Does it make good games in league X? Will people struggle against it at skill level Y? etc. etc.
People should not be bashed for asking these question and posting their feelings about these topics.
Then people should stop posting that X or Y can't be beat--because that's irrelevant to what this thread should actually be about which is unit dynamics.
Balance discussion can only be about winrates.
Game dynamics is not about balance--its about dynamics. How much you win or lose is irrelevant, only what you do in the game is relevant.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
Well, I agree with you, but still balance is first and formost winrates. Sure, if the best player in the world happens to play and keeps on dominating and noother Zerg can reproduce his results we probably just have to consider him to be better. If however every Zerg in Code S has 60% winrate vs Terran for some months, then we probably have a balance problem and shouldn't discard that as "winrates mean nothing, every Zerg these days is simply a v beast. Look, some Terran somewhere won a tournament against Zergs."
Statistically balanced is very simply the by far best indicator for balance we have. Things like "composition XY is unbeatable for race Z at timing T" is not, because 99% of those issues simply can be prevented by playing a certain way.
Well I agree with you, balance is dedicated by winrates and so on. Still, this is the "warp prism buff" thread, not just balance discussion thread.
Therefore it is the right place to discuss all the other factors too, like is it fun to play? Is it fun to play against? Does it make good games in league X? Will people struggle against it at skill level Y? etc. etc.
People should not be bashed for asking these question and posting their feelings about these topics.
Then people should stop posting that X or Y can't be beat--because that's irrelevant to what this thread should actually be about which is unit dynamics.
Balance discussion can only be about winrates.
Game dynamics is not about balance--its about dynamics. How much you win or lose is irrelevant, only what you do in the game is relevant.
This is a false ideology both in what constitutes meaningful balance discussion and factors that Blizzard uses to determine balance changes.
For instance, the Phoenix range buff back in WoL was a response to the mass-mutalisk play that was popular with Zergs at the time.
ZvP was not terribly out of balance at the time, it was fairly even, but Protoss players everywhere were complaining about their inability to do anything against large swarms of mutalisks and Blizzard obviously agreed with them, we have an researchable range upgrade to show for it.
ZvP win-rates weren't really affected by this balance change at all, but it DID force the MU away from mutas for standard play.
Unit dynamics is a critical part to balance, because if things aren't dynamic and interesting, balance doesn't matter.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
Well, I agree with you, but still balance is first and formost winrates. Sure, if the best player in the world happens to play and keeps on dominating and noother Zerg can reproduce his results we probably just have to consider him to be better. If however every Zerg in Code S has 60% winrate vs Terran for some months, then we probably have a balance problem and shouldn't discard that as "winrates mean nothing, every Zerg these days is simply a v beast. Look, some Terran somewhere won a tournament against Zergs."
Statistically balanced is very simply the by far best indicator for balance we have. Things like "composition XY is unbeatable for race Z at timing T" is not, because 99% of those issues simply can be prevented by playing a certain way.
Well I agree with you, balance is dedicated by winrates and so on. Still, this is the "warp prism buff" thread, not just balance discussion thread.
Therefore it is the right place to discuss all the other factors too, like is it fun to play? Is it fun to play against? Does it make good games in league X? Will people struggle against it at skill level Y? etc. etc.
People should not be bashed for asking these question and posting their feelings about these topics.
Then people should stop posting that X or Y can't be beat--because that's irrelevant to what this thread should actually be about which is unit dynamics.
Balance discussion can only be about winrates.
Game dynamics is not about balance--its about dynamics. How much you win or lose is irrelevant, only what you do in the game is relevant.
This is a false ideology both in what constitutes meaningful balance discussion and factors that Blizzard uses to determine balance changes.
For instance, the Phoenix range buff back in WoL was a response to the mass-mutalisk play that was popular with Zergs at the time.
ZvP was not terribly out of balance at the time, it was fairly even, but Protoss players everywhere were complaining about their inability to do anything against large swarms of mutalisks and Blizzard obviously agreed with them, we have an researchable range upgrade to show for it.
ZvP win-rates weren't really affected by this balance change at all, but it DID force the MU away from mutas for standard play.
Unit dynamics is a critical part to balance, because if things aren't dynamic and interesting, balance doesn't matter.
If there was no inbalance before the patch, and no balance changes after the patch--then it wasn't a balance patch by definition.
It was tweaking a game dynamic, attempting to change the way it is played without affecting balance. The same as this prism patch. Yet people keep talking about wins and losses--which is irrelevant.
On June 26 2013 01:38 Thieving Magpie wrote: If there was no inbalance before the patch, and no balance changes after the patch--then it wasn't a balance patch by definition.
It was tweaking a game dynamic, attempting to change the way it is played without affecting balance. The same as this prism patch. Yet people keep talking about wins and losses--which is irrelevant.
Losing is part of the game. People are willing to discuss their potential losses related to warp prism play - who are you to tell them that this is wrong?
Even if WP buff does not change the picture losing to something like FF ramp block with units warping in just on the top of your production is a frustrating way to go.
On June 24 2013 13:02 Plansix wrote: If I have learned anything from this thread it is that balance is not something to be discussed. It is to be viewed from afar and judged. But discussion on the subject just degrades down into unreasonable madness.
It can be discussed, but only by people who are able to not bring their own personal bias in. Too many people use balance discussion to further their own goals (ie win more games) rather than to work at balancing the game. You see it in this thread. Any kind of real balance discussion requires incredibly strict moderation as any claims have to have significant evidence, and guidelines or rules for the discussion need to be laid out. Otherwise you end up with what we have here, or even worse, what happens on the Blizzard forums.
Thankfully, we have things like Aligulac and other statistics. These shows us potential balance problems in matchups (that are otherwise denied by people with a personal bias) and provide evidence for discussion. But then you have the people who question or belittle statistics (again because they have a personal bias), and you spend more time discussing the validity of statistics... pretty much every thread that shares statistics related to balance ends up in that realm on this forum.
You're probably right in the end... it can't be done on a public forum.
Watching and playing Starcraft 2 is a personal experience. It is up to the person playing or watching the game to point out the things that are important to him/her. And balance changes affect this experience.
People can (and will) point fingers at other things than the aligulac stats. It is perfectly reasonable.
"Statistically balanced" is not - and will never be - the only or ultimate argument. Deal with it.
It took the immediate post for someone to argue against math.
Good job TL, keep it classy.
If you want a balanced game then play coinflip - it is perfectly balanced. If you want more you have to also consider other factors. Starcraft is not pure math.
Well, I agree with you, but still balance is first and formost winrates. Sure, if the best player in the world happens to play and keeps on dominating and noother Zerg can reproduce his results we probably just have to consider him to be better. If however every Zerg in Code S has 60% winrate vs Terran for some months, then we probably have a balance problem and shouldn't discard that as "winrates mean nothing, every Zerg these days is simply a v beast. Look, some Terran somewhere won a tournament against Zergs."
Statistically balanced is very simply the by far best indicator for balance we have. Things like "composition XY is unbeatable for race Z at timing T" is not, because 99% of those issues simply can be prevented by playing a certain way.
Well I agree with you, balance is dedicated by winrates and so on. Still, this is the "warp prism buff" thread, not just balance discussion thread.
Therefore it is the right place to discuss all the other factors too, like is it fun to play? Is it fun to play against? Does it make good games in league X? Will people struggle against it at skill level Y? etc. etc.
People should not be bashed for asking these question and posting their feelings about these topics.
Then people should stop posting that X or Y can't be beat--because that's irrelevant to what this thread should actually be about which is unit dynamics.
Balance discussion can only be about winrates.
Game dynamics is not about balance--its about dynamics. How much you win or lose is irrelevant, only what you do in the game is relevant.
This is a false ideology both in what constitutes meaningful balance discussion and factors that Blizzard uses to determine balance changes.
For instance, the Phoenix range buff back in WoL was a response to the mass-mutalisk play that was popular with Zergs at the time.
ZvP was not terribly out of balance at the time, it was fairly even, but Protoss players everywhere were complaining about their inability to do anything against large swarms of mutalisks and Blizzard obviously agreed with them, we have an researchable range upgrade to show for it.
ZvP win-rates weren't really affected by this balance change at all, but it DID force the MU away from mutas for standard play.
Unit dynamics is a critical part to balance, because if things aren't dynamic and interesting, balance doesn't matter.
If there was no inbalance before the patch, and no balance changes after the patch--then it wasn't a balance patch by definition.
It was tweaking a game dynamic, attempting to change the way it is played without affecting balance. The same as this prism patch. Yet people keep talking about wins and losses--which is irrelevant.
In League and Dota, these are refereed to as "Quality of Life" changes. The change is made to make the unit/hero more usable through all match ups or play styles. The Phoenix range buff and WP buff are quality of life changes. Mutas still kick the crap out of protoss and WP still die, but they have more utility in their given roles.
Not everything is about balance. We could have a completely balanced game and only use 2 units in each match up, but that game would suck. Sometimes it is just about make the game more interesting.
On June 25 2013 22:53 Mura19 wrote: I mean in Proleague when zerg got around 180 pop, Protoss got like 140 or 150 pop max in standard game...
that's true, but that doesn't mean anything. Supply is not generally a good measure for the state of a match. And what you bring up is the perfect example, why this is not a good measure. Why? Zealot cost: 100/0/2 --> 50/0 per supply Sentry cost: 50/100/2 --> 25/50 per supply Stalker cost: 125/50/2 --> 62.5/25 per supply
versus
Zergling cost: 25/0/0.5 --> 50/0 per supply Roach cost: 75/25/2 --> 37.5/12.5 per supply Queen cost: 150/0/2 --> 75/0 per supply
In words: A standard stalker/sentry/tech heavy Protoss has much less supply on the field for the same money than a standard slowteching zerg that relies on zergling/roach/queen. If the Protoss invests into techunits like phoenix, immortal, colossus, void ray this relation gets even more onesided. However that does not mean that a Protoss army is weaker per se. E.g 1stalker beats 1roach, so the 2Protoss supply are better than the 2Zerg supply in that case.
However, if a zerg invests into upgrades/Hive or swarm hosts or mutas early in the midgame (like at 8-10mins), the supplies will usually be much closer. Because then the zerg also relies on units with a higher cost/supply ratio.
Similar effects are also true in PvT (like those 3base maxed MMM+SCV timings against a 160 supply Protoss with heavytech reliance - Colossi and Templar and Upgrades), TvZ (a 3CC opening usually leads to a 10-20 supply lead around 11-12mins for the Terran due to the cheap marine/mine/hellion combo compared to the expensive baneling/mutalisks) and TvT biomech vs mech (Marine Marauder has a higher cost/supply relation than Tankheavy play).
You right for roach, I think that unit is supply heavy but in the other side roach cost is so cheap and so strong unit for the price compare to Protoss units. I think unit zerg/protoss have almost the same ratio cost/supply except for roach. But when Zerg go hydra + zergling they still ahead in supply and the ratio cost/supply is almost the same for both race.
+
Also protoss need to deal with the fact that Zerg is probably satured 3 bases and Protoss on 2 base. That result Zerg have +33% more income than Protoss and i'ts pretty hard for Protoss to deal with this imbalance.
=
That result Protoss need to play very defensive until 200/200 supply to counter the imbalance or do some 2 base all in or trade base to hope winning this match up.
On June 26 2013 02:38 Mura19 wrote: Also protoss need to deal with the fact that Zerg is probably satured 3 bases and Protoss on 2 base. That result Zerg have +33% more income than Protoss and i'ts pretty hard for Protoss to deal with this imbalance.
=
That result Protoss need to play very defensive until 200/200 supply to counter the imbalance or do some 2 base all in or trade base to hope winning this match up.
If you jump straight to 3 base vs 2 base full saturation, you are missing the biggest window of attack in PvZ that has existed for the past 2 years of SC2.
Virtually every 7+ gate, 6 gate robo, or any attack involving ground units abuses the window of time where Protoss fully saturated natural matches the mostly saturated income of the Zerg 3 bases.
It's not as easy as saying "well Zerg has 3 bases, Protoss must be defensive." Heck, MOST PvZ games are determined before the Zerg fully saturates their 3rd. Especially in the current game, Protoss 3rds are very defensible on most maps well before 200 supply.
Stop skipping past the entire game in one sentence.
On June 26 2013 02:38 Mura19 wrote: Also protoss need to deal with the fact that Zerg is probably satured 3 bases and Protoss on 2 base. That result Zerg have +33% more income than Protoss and i'ts pretty hard for Protoss to deal with this imbalance.
=
That result Protoss need to play very defensive until 200/200 supply to counter the imbalance or do some 2 base all in or trade base to hope winning this match up.
If you jump straight to 3 base vs 2 base full saturation, you are missing the biggest window of attack in PvZ that has existed for the past 2 years of SC2.
Virtually every 7+ gate, 6 gate robo, or any attack involving ground units abuses the window of time where Protoss fully saturated natural matches the mostly saturated income of the Zerg 3 bases.
It's not as easy as saying "well Zerg has 3 bases, Protoss must be defensive." Heck, MOST PvZ games are determined before the Zerg fully saturates their 3rd. Especially in the current game, Protoss 3rds are very defensible on most maps well before 200 supply.
Stop skipping past the entire game in one sentence.
You say exactly the same that what I say. Protoss do all in like 7+ gate or 6 gate robo to counter the imblance of the match up...
On June 26 2013 02:38 Mura19 wrote: Also protoss need to deal with the fact that Zerg is probably satured 3 bases and Protoss on 2 base. That result Zerg have +33% more income than Protoss and i'ts pretty hard for Protoss to deal with this imbalance.
=
That result Protoss need to play very defensive until 200/200 supply to counter the imbalance or do some 2 base all in or trade base to hope winning this match up.
If you jump straight to 3 base vs 2 base full saturation, you are missing the biggest window of attack in PvZ that has existed for the past 2 years of SC2.
Virtually every 7+ gate, 6 gate robo, or any attack involving ground units abuses the window of time where Protoss fully saturated natural matches the mostly saturated income of the Zerg 3 bases.
It's not as easy as saying "well Zerg has 3 bases, Protoss must be defensive." Heck, MOST PvZ games are determined before the Zerg fully saturates their 3rd. Especially in the current game, Protoss 3rds are very defensible on most maps well before 200 supply.
Stop skipping past the entire game in one sentence.
You say exactly the same that what I say. Protoss do all in like 7+ gate or 6 gate robo to counter the imblance of the match up...
Zerg double expands => Protoss applies pressure
Zerg gets a delayed 3rd => Protoss gets a fast third
On June 26 2013 02:38 Mura19 wrote: Also protoss need to deal with the fact that Zerg is probably satured 3 bases and Protoss on 2 base. That result Zerg have +33% more income than Protoss and i'ts pretty hard for Protoss to deal with this imbalance.
=
That result Protoss need to play very defensive until 200/200 supply to counter the imbalance or do some 2 base all in or trade base to hope winning this match up.
If you jump straight to 3 base vs 2 base full saturation, you are missing the biggest window of attack in PvZ that has existed for the past 2 years of SC2.
Virtually every 7+ gate, 6 gate robo, or any attack involving ground units abuses the window of time where Protoss fully saturated natural matches the mostly saturated income of the Zerg 3 bases.
It's not as easy as saying "well Zerg has 3 bases, Protoss must be defensive." Heck, MOST PvZ games are determined before the Zerg fully saturates their 3rd. Especially in the current game, Protoss 3rds are very defensible on most maps well before 200 supply.
Stop skipping past the entire game in one sentence.
You say exactly the same that what I say. Protoss do all in like 7+ gate or 6 gate robo to counter the imblance of the match up...
i like it when protoss players think this way so i don't have to deal with void ray ht cannon and super fast 3rd that is safe vs everything thx to msc. : ]
On June 26 2013 01:38 Thieving Magpie wrote: If there was no inbalance before the patch, and no balance changes after the patch--then it wasn't a balance patch by definition.
It was tweaking a game dynamic, attempting to change the way it is played without affecting balance. The same as this prism patch. Yet people keep talking about wins and losses--which is irrelevant.
Losing is part of the game. People are willing to discuss their potential losses related to warp prism play - who are you to tell them that this is wrong?
Even if WP buff does not change the picture losing to something like FF ramp block with units warping in just on the top of your production is a frustrating way to go.
Discussing factual losses for players sub Code A skill is perfectly fine. it has however - imho - no place in a balance discussion thread and makes them extremely unwieldy. Discussing "potential losses" takes it yet another step further, way too far. as 99%++ of ladder players do not lose their games for balancing reasons, they lose b/c they make more mistakes than the other guy.
Just imagine somebody opening a help or discussion thread, uploading a replay and asking for advice. People will point out mistakes and nobody remotely sane will tell them they lost b/c that warp prism moved 18% faster now.
If there was more analysis of win quotas and race representations and tournament victories by race - all in context, and a lot less emphasis on how this personally affects lower league players, the quality of discussion would improve dramatically.
It was sadly telling that the last guy, who criticized the flow of discussion got a rebuttal which started with "ROFL" of all things.
On June 25 2013 22:53 Mura19 wrote: I mean in Proleague when zerg got around 180 pop, Protoss got like 140 or 150 pop max in standard game...
that's true, but that doesn't mean anything. Supply is not generally a good measure for the state of a match. And what you bring up is the perfect example, why this is not a good measure. Why? Zealot cost: 100/0/2 --> 50/0 per supply Sentry cost: 50/100/2 --> 25/50 per supply Stalker cost: 125/50/2 --> 62.5/25 per supply
versus
Zergling cost: 25/0/0.5 --> 50/0 per supply Roach cost: 75/25/2 --> 37.5/12.5 per supply Queen cost: 150/0/2 --> 75/0 per supply
In words: A standard stalker/sentry/tech heavy Protoss has much less supply on the field for the same money than a standard slowteching zerg that relies on zergling/roach/queen. If the Protoss invests into techunits like phoenix, immortal, colossus, void ray this relation gets even more onesided. However that does not mean that a Protoss army is weaker per se. E.g 1stalker beats 1roach, so the 2Protoss supply are better than the 2Zerg supply in that case.
However, if a zerg invests into upgrades/Hive or swarm hosts or mutas early in the midgame (like at 8-10mins), the supplies will usually be much closer. Because then the zerg also relies on units with a higher cost/supply ratio.
Similar effects are also true in PvT (like those 3base maxed MMM+SCV timings against a 160 supply Protoss with heavytech reliance - Colossi and Templar and Upgrades), TvZ (a 3CC opening usually leads to a 10-20 supply lead around 11-12mins for the Terran due to the cheap marine/mine/hellion combo compared to the expensive baneling/mutalisks) and TvT biomech vs mech (Marine Marauder has a higher cost/supply relation than Tankheavy play).
You right for roach, I think that unit is supply heavy but in the other side roach cost is so cheap and so strong unit for the price compare to Protoss units. I think unit zerg/protoss have almost the same ratio cost/supply except for roach. But when Zerg go hydra + zergling they still ahead in supply and the ratio cost/supply is almost the same for both race.
+
Also protoss need to deal with the fact that Zerg is probably satured 3 bases and Protoss on 2 base. That result Zerg have +33% more income than Protoss and i'ts pretty hard for Protoss to deal with this imbalance.
=
That result Protoss need to play very defensive until 200/200 supply to counter the imbalance or do some 2 base all in or trade base to hope winning this match up.
it's not just the roach. sure you can go pure gateway against hydras and have similar supply... but if you tech T3 templar/colossi instead, you once again have a better cost/supply than the zerg, so the supplies are simply not compareable. And yeah, faster 3bases for zerg is an eco advantage. that usually geta dealt with by either using that huge timing window for an attack, or teching some T3 tech (usually colossi) and being ahead in tech. so zerg has to deal with Protoss "imbalance" (as you put it) of 10min T3
On June 26 2013 02:38 Mura19 wrote: Also protoss need to deal with the fact that Zerg is probably satured 3 bases and Protoss on 2 base. That result Zerg have +33% more income than Protoss and i'ts pretty hard for Protoss to deal with this imbalance.
=
That result Protoss need to play very defensive until 200/200 supply to counter the imbalance or do some 2 base all in or trade base to hope winning this match up.
If you jump straight to 3 base vs 2 base full saturation, you are missing the biggest window of attack in PvZ that has existed for the past 2 years of SC2.
Virtually every 7+ gate, 6 gate robo, or any attack involving ground units abuses the window of time where Protoss fully saturated natural matches the mostly saturated income of the Zerg 3 bases.
It's not as easy as saying "well Zerg has 3 bases, Protoss must be defensive." Heck, MOST PvZ games are determined before the Zerg fully saturates their 3rd. Especially in the current game, Protoss 3rds are very defensible on most maps well before 200 supply.
Stop skipping past the entire game in one sentence.
You say exactly the same that what I say. Protoss do all in like 7+ gate or 6 gate robo to counter the imblance of the match up...
Because it works differently doesn't mean its imbalanced...
I am seriously boggled at why terrans were complaining so much about the buff when it actually affects mainly zerg and has virtually no impact on PvT.
Come on..for non standard PvT noone will use warp prisms for all in anyway, since oracles are generally more devastating. For standard PvT where the toss do the standard 1 Gate FE, you have to get a robo, then 2 gates, then 2 forges after that, and when you have the robo up, you basically need to make 2-3 observers right off to scout and to give map vision so as not to get gibbed by medivac drops. By the time you are done churning observers out like mad, your robo bay is probably done so you have to build colossi so as to be able to take a third at a reasonable time. There is seriously no time to build a warp prism to f around for drops. You need every unit to be able to take a third reasonably safely since good terrans will double drop / hit your third simultaneously forcing you to split your army like mad and taking trades cost ineffectively.
The only time zealot drops can do dmg is if the terran army is out attacking and we dont need a bloody warp prism to 'drop' honestly, a runby from a nearby pylon will probably have the same effect. So yea, just get over it already, no protoss really gives a shit about the warp prism buff in pvt unless its a really massive speed buff where we might be able to do some cute stuff with double immortals in it.
I think its funny all the derps who somehow think this doesn't effect PvT. I always open up with warp prism harass vs terrans because its extremely effective. very often I will just win the game right there and the fast shield regen is VERY useful for preserving your units. Costing only minerals equal to two pylons, there is no reason not to get a warp prism in every game.
As a random player I've always thought of protoss as the easymode race and it makes sense that the most clueless players play them.
Every change like this has an effect, whether it's going to be large is the issue. I don't see it revolutionising PvT, but it's a useful tweak to a part of the arsenal we already had.
I mean despite my disagreement with much of your post, I appreciate you coming on, calling people derps and giving anecdotal pointers on Warp Prisms being good vT and call Protoss the easymode race that clueless players play.
It will help protoss players who were already using the warp prism immediately. I'm willing to bet it will change the meta game in the next 3 months for everyone else. The main reason I'm scared as a Terran player is warp ins in my base while I'm on the other side of the map trying to all in the protoss with a 2 or 3 base all in.
Protoss players haven't been placing highly in tounaments so it's a nice buff, but should not be underestimated.
Well I could bittervet this about some posts or I'll ask the question that's really on my head after the patch and a homestorycup I wasn't interested in in the slightest.
Poll: Will you watch more HoTS after this change?
Unchanged (24)
73%
Yes (9)
27%
No (0)
0%
33 total votes
Your vote: Will you watch more HoTS after this change?
Given that we're atleast 2 years before we can begin to entertain dreams of a complete revamp or new design...Will this change cause you to watch more HoTS over the next 6 months?
Poll: Do you watch more or less StarCraft than you did in Q1 2012
More (15)
43%
Same amount (11)
31%
Less (9)
26%
35 total votes
Your vote: Do you watch more or less StarCraft than you did in Q1 2012
On June 26 2013 10:18 Sabu113 wrote: Well I could bittervet this about some posts or I'll ask the question that's really on my head after the patch and a homestorycup I wasn't interested in in the slightest.
Poll: Will you watch more HoTS after this change?
Unchanged (24)
73%
Yes (9)
27%
No (0)
0%
33 total votes
Your vote: Will you watch more HoTS after this change?
Given that we're atleast 2 years before we can begin to entertain dreams of a complete revamp or new design...Will this change cause you to watch more HoTS over the next 6 months?
I just don't believe this is the change protoss needs. As I see it, the only saving grace to make the protoss race less gimmicky(and more stable) is to remove warp gate and rebalance from that. It probably won't change my viewing experience, atleast not atm, but the game will be a lot less fun if there are effectively just 2 races at the top.
I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
Bah We want to buff things up right? A game that has hellbats and speedmedivacs can fit reavers in. I mean honestly they can't be much worse hellbats and mines.
Yeah I don't think I'll ever give up on the idea of bringing something like reaver micro to an RTS. That was what made protoss so much fun to watch and fail with.
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
Bah We want to buff things up right? A game that has hellbats and speedmedivacs can fit reavers in. I mean honestly they can't be much worse hellbats and mines.
Yeah I don't think I'll ever give up on the idea of bringing something like reaver micro to an RTS. That was what made protoss so much fun to watch and fail with.
Well, I REALLY love reaver that I would do anything for it (like giving terran-warhound/shredder and zerg-lurker/scourage) but well, I think I should move on I just hope protoss will have less death ball strategy one day
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Funnily enough on ladder I come across speedprism collosus drops ALA reaver drops since I play mech (siege expand) and damn it's actually really effective.
It's just against bio you'll just die before you can do anything with it or the prism will die to mmarines.
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
A constant threat to clumped up units is exactly what SC2 needs.
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
A constant threat to clumped up units is exactly what SC2 needs.
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Funnily enough on ladder I come across speedprism collosus drops ALA reaver drops since I play mech (siege expand) and damn it's actually really effective.
It's just against bio you'll just die before you can do anything with it or the prism will die to mmarines.
IF NOT MICROd.
If you can execute shuttle arcade, you won't have problem. The gravitic boost upgrade will greatly increase the survivability of the prism and reaver.
You can also just drop reavers in the mineral and one shot workers (maybe not many but close to wm?) and leave. simple (or multi prong attack!).
The good thing about reaver drop is that it is easy to drop and kill but very hard to escape. This requires more skill and risk, more exciting than zealot/DT sucides.
collosus is not effective to kill workers comparable to reaver. Warp prism can hold only 1 Collosus and both will get hit by static defences. And Collosus cannot 1 shot kill workers whereas reaver can (or it should be because we don't have them ).
I'm not saying the collosus is terrible (but I should say they are poorly designed) but reaver would add some spice to drops and other match ups. (But of course, the scrab dmg must be adjusted!)
It is junk, you cannot win a base race if you have 20-30 supply cut off from support units, and are unable to kill off tech or production buildings (terrans because they fly, zerg because they are so distributed).
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
Bah We want to buff things up right? A game that has hellbats and speedmedivacs can fit reavers in. I mean honestly they can't be much worse hellbats and mines.
Yeah I don't think I'll ever give up on the idea of bringing something like reaver micro to an RTS. That was what made protoss so much fun to watch and fail with.
Well, I REALLY love reaver that I would do anything for it (like giving terran-warhound/shredder and zerg-lurker/scourage) but well, I think I should move on I just hope protoss will have less death ball strategy one day
lurker was tested on the alpha of wol i believed and because of the new pathing system they were not as good as BW .. i think the reaver was also tested and had the same conclusion
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
Bah We want to buff things up right? A game that has hellbats and speedmedivacs can fit reavers in. I mean honestly they can't be much worse hellbats and mines.
Yeah I don't think I'll ever give up on the idea of bringing something like reaver micro to an RTS. That was what made protoss so much fun to watch and fail with.
Well, I REALLY love reaver that I would do anything for it (like giving terran-warhound/shredder and zerg-lurker/scourage) but well, I think I should move on I just hope protoss will have less death ball strategy one day
lurker was tested on the alpha of wol i believed and because of the new pathing system they were not as good as BW .. i think the reaver was also tested and had the same conclusion
Yep... Lurker in SC2 is just bad (or op depending on stats). Scourage could have been employed but they didn't want more BW units... which is sad. Reaver was opposite. In SC2 THEY COULD KILL EVERYTHING WITH 80%+ SCRAB ACCURRACY!!! IT was pure op second to original mamaship
EDIT: I'm not going to suggest any reaver modification until LOV beta release (or slightly earlier). No point sayting this when everyone is busy fixing up hots
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
Bah We want to buff things up right? A game that has hellbats and speedmedivacs can fit reavers in. I mean honestly they can't be much worse hellbats and mines.
Yeah I don't think I'll ever give up on the idea of bringing something like reaver micro to an RTS. That was what made protoss so much fun to watch and fail with.
Well, I REALLY love reaver that I would do anything for it (like giving terran-warhound/shredder and zerg-lurker/scourage) but well, I think I should move on I just hope protoss will have less death ball strategy one day
lurker was tested on the alpha of wol i believed and because of the new pathing system they were not as good as BW .. i think the reaver was also tested and had the same conclusion
Reaver was opposite. In SC2 THEY COULD KILL EVERYTHING WITH 80%+ SCRAB ACCURRACY!!! IT was pure op second to original mamaship
EDIT: I'm not going to suggest any reaver modification until LOV beta release (or slightly earlier). No point sayting this when everyone is busy fixing up hots
But people would learn to adapt. I mean you could split against the scarabs as you would against siege tank fire, banelings, widow mines, storm, and HSM. All those abilities hurt units that clump up.
I feel like protoss won't change unless they redesign most of the units or introduce new ones.
On June 26 2013 14:39 SsDrKosS wrote: I think this change won't be that crucial in overall game play unless Blizzard introduce more 'droppable' units such as BW reaver. Oh my good old reaver...
Reaver in a game where units automatically clump up sounds like the most terrifying thing ever.
Bah We want to buff things up right? A game that has hellbats and speedmedivacs can fit reavers in. I mean honestly they can't be much worse hellbats and mines.
Yeah I don't think I'll ever give up on the idea of bringing something like reaver micro to an RTS. That was what made protoss so much fun to watch and fail with.
Well, I REALLY love reaver that I would do anything for it (like giving terran-warhound/shredder and zerg-lurker/scourage) but well, I think I should move on I just hope protoss will have less death ball strategy one day
lurker was tested on the alpha of wol i believed and because of the new pathing system they were not as good as BW .. i think the reaver was also tested and had the same conclusion
Reaver was opposite. In SC2 THEY COULD KILL EVERYTHING WITH 80%+ SCRAB ACCURRACY!!! IT was pure op second to original mamaship
EDIT: I'm not going to suggest any reaver modification until LOV beta release (or slightly earlier). No point sayting this when everyone is busy fixing up hots
But people would learn to adapt. I mean you could split against the scarabs as you would against siege tank fire, banelings, widow mines, storm, and HSM. All those abilities hurt units that clump up.
I feel like protoss won't change unless they redesign most of the units or introduce new ones.
But they could kill buildings also. 100 (and 125 later) is just extreme. And if I remember correctly, the splash dmg was also huge and large (one shots kills clumps of vultures/marines, etc with no friendly dmg!)
If they neft reaver (doesn't sound right for units that don't exist ), it would encourage protoss players to micro more effectively.
...And yep. Protoss won't change that big. people are used to this style already. OP PROTOSS BALL~ LOL
EPT
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beast. Look, some Terran somewhere won a tournament against Zergs."
