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[G] Sim City versus Hellion

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-25 14:16:32
February 25 2011 10:34 GMT
#1
[image loading]


Overview
+ Show Spoiler +


[image loading]
The Sticks of Pain: Title credit goes to Elvin from TeamLiquid


So today I’m going to talk a little about Sim City. And I thought this was important because the iEchoic build is talked about a lot on the strategy forum, and when ever anyone makes a suggestion you just get hellion drop, hellion drop, hellion drop. Every day some guy will mention some ill thought out strategy like "can't you just thor rush?", and its important that people start to think beyond the scope of just a hard counter.

With the removal of Multiple Building Selection, and the disadvantages of walling the choke against protoss and terran, most players have often neglected to place their structures in a way that would serve more functions than the buildings themselves. People have forgotten that even in Starcraft 1, players also placed their buildings in such a way as to minimise losses, and maximise gains.


Jaedong vs Lucifer Arena MSL 2008
+ Show Spoiler +



Lucifer goes proxy gateways, so Jaedong places his sunken colony in a way that his drones can gas and mineral run around it. This glitches the zealots so they can't attack, and also forces zealots to move in single file in order to attack the drones. Because of the sunken placement Jaedong is simply able to defend with drones, and run-by his lings to Lucifers undefended base to win the game.




Why should I care about Sim City?
+ Show Spoiler +

As the saying goes, prevention is better than cure. It doesn't matter if the opponent decides not to go for hellion centric play, you don't stand to lose anything, your build order will never change, it is just the placements of the buildings. However you stand to lose a lot more if you decide to change your style of play simply because of the possibility of a hellion banshee build.

For the many that complain on the Strategy forums that they don't know what to do about the blue flame hellion drop upon moving out, rather than thinking about builds like Viking Marauder and Thor rush, you can continue with your standard opening and just sim city your main.


The following is what you would expect when you create a Hellion Tight Sim City
+ Show Spoiler +


[image loading]
"Ok lets do this!"

[image loading]
"What do we do now sarge?"
"Keep driving into that supply depot, its bound to go down soon!"
*Medivac shakes head


[image loading]
"Hellions: Its a tank!!! Oh goddddd ..."

[image loading]
"Hellions: We need elevator support! Quick get us over those depots now!"
"Medivac: Ok here you go"
*Hellion dies
"Garrrrggghhhhhh!"


[image loading]
"..."

[image loading]
"Remind me why I have to pay an extra 25 minerals to hire you guys"

More tomfoolery

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

1 Kills W00t!!!



When is the best time to set up my Sim City?
+ Show Spoiler +

When you start the game its important to begin building your sim city immediately. Do not wait until you see a certain build and then react by building a sim city. Simply put, your very first supply depot and every building after that should go towards building your sim city, if you want to prevent hellion harass in your main.

You can create a Hellion Tight sim city on any map. Of course if you haven't Sim Citied on certain maps, its not hard to think of a way to place your buildings, the hard part will be thinking about it while doing what you normally do. When this situation arises, I decide on a build order immediately and decide where all my buildings will be placed before my first supply depot goes down. If you can't do that, the best thing to do is to start up a custom game against AI and figure out the best way to Sim City on each map.


Examples of Hellion Tight Sim City
+ Show Spoiler +

Here are some examples of Hellion Tight Sim Cities. These were done in ladder matches on the fly, so there may be more efficient ways of placing buildings. The important thing is that you get your main Hellion tight by around the 7:30 mark (iEchoic drop happens at around 8:30).


Xel Naga Caverns

[image loading]


Metalopolis

[image loading]


Lost Temple

[image loading]


Shakuras Plateau

[image loading]




Example of the effectiveness of a Hellion Tight Wall when versing the iEchoic build
+ Show Spoiler +




Things you should look out for
+ Show Spoiler +

The second time I went against the iEchoic build this happened.

[image loading]

[image loading]

As long as there is 1 matrix touching side by side no unit will be able to get through

[image loading]

Touching corners will still allow units to go through

[image loading]


Moral of this story? Make sure you test your wall with an SCV!!!


Update
On February 25 2011 20:11 Ripzone wrote:
Good job, but i have to correct one thing: Touching corners often block Hellions but SCVs can get through. This is very useful if your opponent unloads the hellions directly at the mineral line.

I did some testing and here is what i found out:

Touching corners block Hellions but not SCVs in all cases but not if there is a Command Center or a Refinery included.


However you can have the same effect with a Command Center included if there is 1 matrix touching side by side.

The effect can't be achieved with a Refinery included.


Not only Hellions
Sim citying your main can also be useful for blocking DT Harass, Zealot harass, Reapers, and Zerglings too.
[image loading]

[image loading]

The reaper is trapped inside with no where to go, marines deal with it before it can do any damage



FAQ
+ Show Spoiler +

What about marine/marauder drops?
This should still help, the medivacs have to move in closer to the base to get in an effective place to drop, otherwise you can just pull your scvs to the other side. This results in 2 things, medivacs get shot down by turrets, or it buys you enough time to defend. Of course its not as effective as defending against hellion drops.

You lost mining time in the first example?
You should also realise that the sim city allowed me to expand faster than my opponent because I didn't have to worry about defending my main from drops. Notice on the minimap how I already have 2 mining bases and a bunch of tanks defending my nat already.

What if the opponent drops behind your mineral line?
Exactly the same as if you don't sim city, you have two choices, mine and die, or run away and die. This shouldn't happen unless it happened like in the first example. Basically don't neglect turrets or sensor towers, or have vikings ready.


Response to the behind mineral line question
+ Show Spoiler +

On February 25 2011 21:27 Lucius22 wrote:
yes its maybe cool to have such a simcity, but what happens if he drops BEHIND the wall off?
its quite possible on most maps and if he sees you went for the simcity hes just gonna drop directly into the mineral line and all your scvs will get toasted and your units cant even reach the hellions.


On February 25 2011 21:14 Belha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2011 20:54 FoFo wrote:
On February 25 2011 20:11 Ripzone wrote:
Good job, but i have to correct one thing: Touching corners often block Hellions but SCVs can get through. This is very useful if your opponent unloads the hellions directly at the mineral line.

I did some testing and here is what i found out:

Touching corners block Hellions but not SCVs in all cases but not if there is a Command Center or a Refinery included.


However you can have the same effect with a Command Center included if there is 1 matrix touching side by side.

The effect can't be achieved with a Refinery included.


very nice find!

Perhaps protoss can block off the helions but keep a probe passageway by making a pylon next to nexus or assimilator?


Still, with that kind of sim city, a dual drop full of MM in the mineral line would be devastating due to the concave adventage. Would be lot of loses till your forces get inside the "city" and matches the stimmed MM. I guess the best option is to sim city, then make a 2 stalker "door". Still, has someone saw the game 2 between Squirtle and Supernova? IMO blue flame hellions drops are at the limit of imbalance.



On February 25 2011 20:46 Blasts wrote:
Nice post, but I see one weakness. If you don't build a turret, the medivac can come from the back most of the times, and drop the helions on your SCV's. And because you simcity so well, they can't go anywhere. Any thoughts on that?

Of course you should build a turret if you expect a drop, but even in other cases where your SCV's have to spread out(a siege tank drop for example) you cannot really spread your SCV's. You say mine and die, or runaway and die. But without simcity, you can use the s-split to spread your SCV's through your whole base with minimal losses.


Credit to Bobucles who answered this better than I could

On February 25 2011 21:40 bobucles wrote:

It should be pointed out that the purpose of this sim city is NOT to keep hellions away forever and ever. Rather, its purpose is to limit the viable approaches for a hellion drop.

In a standard base, a hellion drop can happen anywhere. Medivacs can approach from any direction, drop inside your fog of war (or even in plain sight!), and be dealing damage before you can do anything.

In a simcity base, there is only one place to drop hellions- right in the middle of SCV lines. There are only TWO ways to do this. One, you do a suicide run across the main base, leaving the medivacs fully exposed. Two, you come in from behind the mineral line. Not only is this the slowest approach, it is also the most easily spotted thanks to your building vision, and the most easily covered with missile turrets.

You can take this even further by incorporating a sensor tower to the build. Remember that the medivac has to go ALL the way around before it can do damage to your SCVs. A sensor tower lets you spot its lumbering progress, giving an almost inexcusable length of time to respond.


Think of it this way, if you have 10 turrets and you put it around the perimeter or you have 10 turrets and you put it around your command center, which is more effective?

Now add the time it takes for the medivac to get there (which is much slower than a hellion) and its really a much bigger task than it looks.

In the example I give, the opponent drops outside my base first, and then picks the hellions up and drops it behind my mineral line. By that time its already too late, half the hellions are gone and turrets went up and he simply had to evacuate. If I had 1 or 2 turrets up before the drop happened the hellions wouldn't even have made it over the wall.

As for the s-split, its just so slow. If most pros don't do this, how can you expect the average player to do this? You have to know very far ahead of time that the drop is going to happen. In which case you can drop your supply depots if you really want to and do the s-split. It makes no difference either way, your workers still get just as funneled by trying to go around the Command Center. I am a very big abuser of blue flame hellions, I have yet to play a game where I haven't destroyed half of the workers at a 3rd base even without the use of medivacs, I just run my hellions in.


Useful input from other users
+ Show Spoiler +

On February 25 2011 20:11 Ripzone wrote:
Good job, but i have to correct one thing: Touching corners often block Hellions but SCVs can get through. This is very useful if your opponent unloads the hellions directly at the mineral line.

I did some testing and here is what i found out:

Touching corners block Hellions but not SCVs in all cases but not if there is a Command Center or a Refinery included.


However you can have the same effect with a Command Center included if there is 1 matrix touching side by side.

The effect can't be achieved with a Refinery included.


On February 25 2011 22:28 bubblegumbo wrote:
Ironically Zerg players needs to pay attention to simcity more as Hellions are getting more popular in TvZ, but so many of them don't and just end up whining about imbalance. Protoss players in BW are used to walling off as well vs vulture harass and in my experience Protoss players in SC2 seem to be more aware of the concept of simcity.
A single turret is needed at the center of the area behind the mineral line walloff to help kill of the dropship while the hellions get stuck, the turret can also plug in any hole in between the mineral lines so the hellions cant get out.



Thank you for reading!

Regards

SluggaSlamoo
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
DarkwindHK
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong343 Posts
February 25 2011 10:43 GMT
#2
Its a great guide! Thank you.

Although I am Protoss, I think it is still relevant.
Dont be too humble, you are not that great.
SummerZerg
Profile Joined March 2010
United States82 Posts
February 25 2011 10:45 GMT
#3
A+ guide very relevant to every race even zerg can benefit from sim city.
If you suck at macro practice macro if you suck at micro practice macro.. if your apm sucks practice macro... if you lose games PRACTICE MACRO...
Mofisto
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom585 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-25 10:58:53
February 25 2011 10:56 GMT
#4
nvm, hadn't seen the faq section
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
February 25 2011 10:58 GMT
#5
Very nice guide. Still, that kind of effective sim city is not completelly posible for P (no depots to "unlock" the probe cell). Blue flame kills in 2 hits, runs freaking fast, and need 8 HITS from stalkers to get killed (zealots never hit them). I'll love to see some high level (+3800) P comments about propper response (I've already laughed with some tips from high level non-P players).
Chicken gank op
FoFo
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands207 Posts
February 25 2011 11:05 GMT
#6
lol i'm probably gonna be doing this in every one of my games from now
i love you!
"we must avoid balancing SC2 by making everything suck equally hard."
valheru
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia966 Posts
February 25 2011 11:05 GMT
#7
^ 9 hits hellions have 90 health stalkers do 10 damage.

And yeah good idea there's no reason not to do it as day[9] has said from time to time.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
February 25 2011 11:08 GMT
#8
On February 25 2011 19:58 Belha wrote:
Very nice guide. Still, that kind of effective sim city is not completelly posible for P (no depots to "unlock" the probe cell). Blue flame kills in 2 hits, runs freaking fast, and need 8 HITS from stalkers to get killed (zealots never hit them). I'll love to see some high level (+3800) P comments about propper response (I've already laughed with some tips from high level non-P players).


You can wall off all your bases with pylons and use a stalker as the gatekeeper. Takes a long time for a hellion to kill a stalker.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
February 25 2011 11:08 GMT
#9
Already doing this with Toss, but very useful information nonetheless, thanks

I think the best drop defense is still having good vision of the map though, since drops behind the mineral line will be harder to get to when you're Terran. Running your SCV's will only make things worse in these cases unless you can do it before the hellions are dropped. Blue flame hellion drops are so destructive that prevention is imo the only cost-effective solution, but when something slips through the cracks this will definitely help minimizing the damage.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Ripzone
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany12 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-25 11:26:32
February 25 2011 11:11 GMT
#10
Good job, but i have to correct one thing: Touching corners often block Hellions but SCVs can get through. This is very useful if your opponent unloads the hellions directly at the mineral line.

I did some testing and here is what i found out:

Touching corners block Hellions but not SCVs in all cases but not if there is a Command Center or a Refinery included.


However you can have the same effect with a Command Center included if there is 1 matrix touching side by side.

The effect can't be achieved with a Refinery included.
loklok
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany161 Posts
February 25 2011 11:13 GMT
#11
This probably works for T because he can lift buildings etc but as P you should be able to reach your probes fast with your units. I'm thinking of banshees or just direct drops into your line...
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
February 25 2011 11:30 GMT
#12
On February 25 2011 20:08 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2011 19:58 Belha wrote:
Very nice guide. Still, that kind of effective sim city is not completelly posible for P (no depots to "unlock" the probe cell). Blue flame kills in 2 hits, runs freaking fast, and need 8 HITS from stalkers to get killed (zealots never hit them). I'll love to see some high level (+3800) P comments about propper response (I've already laughed with some tips from high level non-P players).


You can wall off all your bases with pylons and use a stalker as the gatekeeper. Takes a long time for a hellion to kill a stalker.


Oh, nice idea! Gonna try it out, thx sir!
Chicken gank op
solidbebe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4921 Posts
February 25 2011 11:32 GMT
#13
Ha, this was a great read. And not to mention very useful aswell.
That's the 2nd time in a week I've seen someone sig a quote from this GD and I have never witnessed a sig quote happen in my TL history ever before. -Najda
Blasts
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands99 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-25 11:48:02
February 25 2011 11:46 GMT
#14
Nice post, but I see one weakness. If you don't build a turret, the medivac can come from the back most of the times, and drop the helions on your SCV's. And because you simcity so well, they can't go anywhere. Any thoughts on that?

Of course you should build a turret if you expect a drop, but even in other cases where your SCV's have to spread out(a siege tank drop for example) you cannot really spread your SCV's. You say mine and die, or runaway and die. But without simcity, you can use the s-split to spread your SCV's through your whole base with minimal losses.
My worst MU is me vs my cat. I always try to 2 rax him, but he 4 claws me :(
FoFo
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands207 Posts
February 25 2011 11:54 GMT
#15
On February 25 2011 20:11 Ripzone wrote:
Good job, but i have to correct one thing: Touching corners often block Hellions but SCVs can get through. This is very useful if your opponent unloads the hellions directly at the mineral line.

I did some testing and here is what i found out:

Touching corners block Hellions but not SCVs in all cases but not if there is a Command Center or a Refinery included.


However you can have the same effect with a Command Center included if there is 1 matrix touching side by side.

The effect can't be achieved with a Refinery included.


very nice find!

Perhaps protoss can block off the helions but keep a probe passageway by making a pylon next to nexus or assimilator?
"we must avoid balancing SC2 by making everything suck equally hard."
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
February 25 2011 12:14 GMT
#16
On February 25 2011 20:54 FoFo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2011 20:11 Ripzone wrote:
Good job, but i have to correct one thing: Touching corners often block Hellions but SCVs can get through. This is very useful if your opponent unloads the hellions directly at the mineral line.

I did some testing and here is what i found out:

Touching corners block Hellions but not SCVs in all cases but not if there is a Command Center or a Refinery included.


However you can have the same effect with a Command Center included if there is 1 matrix touching side by side.

The effect can't be achieved with a Refinery included.


very nice find!

Perhaps protoss can block off the helions but keep a probe passageway by making a pylon next to nexus or assimilator?


Still, with that kind of sim city, a dual drop full of MM in the mineral line would be devastating due to the concave adventage. Would be lot of loses till your forces get inside the "city" and matches the stimmed MM. I guess the best option is to sim city, then make a 2 stalker "door". Still, has someone saw the game 2 between Squirtle and Supernova? IMO blue flame hellions drops are at the limit of imbalance.
Chicken gank op
bobucles
Profile Joined November 2010
410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-25 12:28:15
February 25 2011 12:20 GMT
#17
This thread deserves a hearty thumbs up. Sim city costs nothing beyond your normal build, and it benefits players in ALL matchups. Terran benefits the best because they have pure ranged units, and because siege tanks can hit anything that can hit the buildings.

Losing a few buildings has to be the MOST over rated threat in the game. Lose your army, you lose. Lose your economy, you lose. Lose a few buildings? He's paying valuable time where you could be killing his army, his economy, or rebuilding your own. A 100 mineral supply depot is a worthy trade against losing siege tanks or a dozen SCVs. A 150 mineral barracks is a worthy trade for getting a successful drop.

I've seen plenty of games turned around because an opponent over committed to attacking structures and ignored the true threats on the field. Quit treating buildings like non-combatants and use what they have!
Blasts
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands99 Posts
February 25 2011 12:21 GMT
#18

Still, with that kind of sim city, a dual drop full of MM in the mineral line would be devastating due to the concave adventage. Would be lot of loses till your forces get inside the "city" and matches the stimmed MM. I guess the best option is to sim city, then make a 2 stalker "door". Still, has someone saw the game 2 between Squirtle and Supernova? IMO blue flame hellions drops are at the limit of imbalance.


Please leave balance or imbalance out of this.
If it is indeed possible to make a hole where helions don't fit through, but SCV's do, you may get better results with an s-split. However, if you have to evacuate your SCV's out of there, they are probably gonna line up to get through the hole, witch is what you don't want against helions.

Maybe if you use a lot of supply depots in your walls instead of barracks and factories, it's possible to lower them all at the same time, essentially making the simcity undone, so your SCV's can flee.

Of course the best thing you can do is just scout the map and avoid dropping in your base at all by having a few vikings hunting medivacs.
My worst MU is me vs my cat. I always try to 2 rax him, but he 4 claws me :(
Icemind
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-25 12:26:09
February 25 2011 12:22 GMT
#19
Great post, something truly worthy of the strat-forum (which is rare enough)
I have been doing this myself for quite some time (and it helped my win rate a lot) but i dont think i ever would have had the patience to put it together in such a nice form especially with all those pictures
I hope you get spotlighted for this, especially since this apllies to Protoss almost as much. They of course dont have buildings they can lower but they instead can leave gaps that can be blocked with one warped in unit or even a quickly placed panic-pylon (I'd rather loose 100 min for the pylon than 1000 in Probes )
Lucius22
Profile Joined February 2011
172 Posts
February 25 2011 12:27 GMT
#20
yes its maybe cool to have such a simcity, but what happens if he drops BEHIND the wall off?
its quite possible on most maps and if he sees you went for the simcity hes just gonna drop directly into the mineral line and all your scvs will get toasted and your units cant even reach the hellions.
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