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On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
and you only need 1,7k/1,7k so 15 mutas to get some harrass done. oh and you cant support that if you go roach hydra or SH or infestor which means we dont have harrass capability with other comps than ling bane muta where all 3 units are able to harrass. nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement could need some love. doesnt have to be big buffs but some small ones like faster unload of nydus or faster ovis which move at HT speed could be very useful and make for more fun games with more multitasking for both sides.
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On June 20 2013 22:08 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:05 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units. I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense. Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
What he should have said is "Same cost efficiency given the same amount of investment". Clearly high tier units tend to be more cost efficient (else why would I even make them?). at 100 minerals there is nothing that, in general situations, come close to the hellbat. It stomps lings, trades effectively with banelings, barely loses to roaches (75/25, so one could say that a roach is worth more). we can see that it is already a good ground unit but the problem comes when you put these pesky guys into a medivac. They are guaranteed to do damage even if the opponent responds almost instantly ( don't try to tell me "pull away the workers" because you can just boost and catch some. Not even two spores stop you from boosting, leaving hellbats, and going away.)
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On June 20 2013 22:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Also what on earth is "allin harass"
An example of allin harass would be for instance if really like your secretary and are very good at breast massage, so you call her to your office and start fondling her boob.
It's technically harass, but you're "allinning" on her liking it so that you and her can start a life together instead of you starting a life together with some random cellmate in prison.
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Why wouldnt they put the hellbat nerf in too. TvT is a nightmare right now.
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Finally, I can understand some of the things Idra said about SC2 designers... Seems like they cared about feedback from gold level players and now want to make the game more retard friendly. This change is so ridiculous...
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On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
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On June 20 2013 22:47 buckKeefe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 21:38 Big J wrote:On June 20 2013 21:23 buckKeefe wrote:On June 20 2013 21:15 Big J wrote:On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote:
sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you. i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point? you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it? ...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
Of course you get attention by buffing a unit. EVERY buff works like that, so the first warp prism buff was surely NOT a prime example. It was just a regular -needed- buff.
btw it's also:
stronger unit --> more use
more attention --> more use
So by measuring the usage, we can't say whether it was mostly a promotion or a buff. However by checking what the buff did (+30% hitpoints!!!!!), we can clearly see that it was first and foremost the first kind of stuff.
+ Show Spoiler +The prime example for a buff promoting something would be the Protoss upgrade buff, which was unsignificant (something like 200 resources cheaper over a duration of 15-20mins) and being done after Creator (and Genius) destroyed Terrans with double forges. It was basically like blizzard saying "hey protoss, we know you have bad winrates right now. But there is this strategy out there that you really should try because it seems to work fantastically."
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On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
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On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Yeah, we've never seen a Zerg player going muta win a game, right?
Or what exactly are you trying to say?
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On June 20 2013 20:56 buckKeefe wrote:
the people who think this is somehow equivalent to medivac boost are insane. let me warp in marines and marauders and we'll call it even. this is going to be the most annoying thing in the universe in late game and will probably kill any chance of mech working in the matchup
dude... even better upgrade is available much earlier than your precious mech will get massed for only 100/100. now, stop crying like a baby for a 0.4 speed buff.
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On June 20 2013 23:12 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground. Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore.
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On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground.
Get ovie speed and drops. Boom now all your houses are drop ships... Idk how anything becomes more efficient for doom drops. When I played kawaii on the ladder when he was playing Zerg at the beginnings hots his ling drops were a nightmare
As for the warp prism buff, meh. Did they completely take out the speed upgrade and just make it free or is warp prism even faster than it was pre patch after the upgrade?
10 zealots in ur production when ur out of position can really do enough damage to end the game
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On June 20 2013 23:16 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:12 packrat386 wrote:On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground. Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one. You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore.
A good Zerg doesn't get crushed by a "mothercore".
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hmm would be tasty if they do add blue flame to the hellbats and then decrease blueflame and servo cost to 100/100. Tasty like 6 month to make it.
(alongside increasing every attack defense and shield upgrade of each race muahahaha one can dream)
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On June 20 2013 23:16 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:12 packrat386 wrote:On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground. Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one. You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore.
Yeah, but the style where they kinda go muta with the thread of switching to roaches at any moment is terrifying. You scout a spire after some early roaches, but don't know if you should invest in stargate units or keep up with your ground army. And even if you figure it out, the zerg can still go muta at any time.
So going straight muta is bad, but tech switches are still awesome, if not more so.
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On June 20 2013 22:56 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:08 packrat386 wrote:On June 20 2013 22:05 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units. I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense. Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency? What he should have said is "Same cost efficiency given the same amount of investment". Clearly high tier units tend to be more cost efficient (else why would I even make them?). at 100 minerals there is nothing that, in general situations, come close to the hellbat. It stomps lings, trades effectively with banelings, barely loses to roaches (75/25, so one could say that a roach is worth more). we can see that it is already a good ground unit but the problem comes when you put these pesky guys into a medivac. They are guaranteed to do damage even if the opponent responds almost instantly ( don't try to tell me "pull away the workers" because you can just boost and catch some. Not even two spores stop you from boosting, leaving hellbats, and going away.)
That's actually quite wrong. Low tier units are far more costefficient in small to medium skirmishes and certain low tier units (Marine/Marauder, Roaches, zerglings, blink stalkers, zealots) simply crush a lot of mid/higher tier units even in bigger battles (like Carriers, Tempest, Thor, Banshee, Raven, Ghost, Hydralisk, Dark Templar, Battlecruiser, Broodlord, Immortal, Infestor, Mutalisk).
Most of those hightier units are only efficient if they are used as counter to some unit (like Colossus vs Marine/Marauder, Immortal vs Roaches/stalkers) have a ton of cheap support in fron of them (like the hydralisk or the Thor or the Colossus), are a support unit (Ghost, Infestor) or straight up don't fullfill a combat role until you start swapping out units that are cheap per supply for those that are expensive per supply (BC, Carrier, Broodlord).
Basically only the 200/200 supply cap and countermechanisms really prevent the game from being only lowtier spam.
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On June 20 2013 23:17 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground. Get ovie speed and drops. Boom now all your houses are drop ships... Idk how anything becomes more efficient for doom drops. When I played kawaii on the ladder when he was playing Zerg at the beginnings hots his ling drops were a nightmare As for the warp prism buff, meh. Did they completely take out the speed upgrade and just make it free or is warp prism even faster than it was pre patch after the upgrade? 10 zealots in ur production when ur out of position can really do enough damage to end the game
Thats so cheap. If you do that he can just a move you at the same time your dropping and loosing units. If that was good why no one doing it except tlo? And hes not even doing it anymore.
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On June 20 2013 23:17 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground. Get ovie speed and drops. Boom now all your houses are drop ships... Idk how anything becomes more efficient for doom drops. When I played kawaii on the ladder when he was playing Zerg at the beginnings hots his ling drops were a nightmare As for the warp prism buff, meh. Did they completely take out the speed upgrade and just make it free or is warp prism even faster than it was pre patch after the upgrade? 10 zealots in ur production when ur out of position can really do enough damage to end the game
The upgrade is still here, and the upgraded warp prism speed is still the same.
So it won't effect the late game at all.
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On June 20 2013 23:12 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground. Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one.
"Drop capability" and "harass" aren't exactly the same thing, and as previously pointed out, muta harass costs 1700+ gas and minerals for a unit that is terrible in straight up fights and doesn't transition well into anything pre-hive.
While muta harass is indeed a very common and successful tactic employed by Zerg players, I would challenge you to name 2 more heavy harass builds from Zerg.
If your honest, its quite easy to admit that Zerg lacks harassment options at least as much as Protoss, if not more so. Particularly due to the fact that drops and nydus are both prohibitively expensive in the modern game. Zerg simply cannot afford either of these, enough units to make them useful, and the necessary infrastructure behind it to transition into something else.
I personally don't have an issue with the warp prism buff, but to call lack of harassment options a Protoss exclusive issue, is just dishonest.
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On June 20 2013 23:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 23:16 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 23:12 packrat386 wrote:On June 20 2013 23:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 20 2013 22:27 packrat386 wrote:
Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas. Zerg has no drops capability att all. its like saying protoss whine about drop capability you have phoenix. If you spend money/supply on mutas you get crushed on the ground. Thats not true at all. If you want a harass heavy style then going for mutas in ZvP and ZvT is a common strategy, not to mention a successful one. You have to go mass mutas so he cant leave his base and that style isnt fun or that good anymore. A good protoss crushes a guy that goes little muta especially with mothercore. Yeah, but the style where they kinda go muta with the thread of switching to roaches at any moment is terrifying. You scout a spire after some early roaches, but don't know if you should invest in stargate units or keep up with your ground army. And even if you figure it out, the zerg can still go muta at any time. So going straight muta is bad, but tech switches are still awesome, if not more so.
Mmm I don't think the roach/muta threat is that bad, just make phoenix/voidray and you have counters to both, the bigger threat is if they transition from spire into roach/hydra faster then you can transition to storm/colossi.
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EPT
