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On June 20 2013 21:23 buckKeefe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 21:15 Big J wrote:On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote:
sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you. i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point?
you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit.
Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful)
So which one was it?
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On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced
A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
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On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced.
Don't you balance the races by balancing the units?
They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
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On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly. Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking...
So basically the same feeling everyone has with Medivacs? 
Start building turrets then. Smart Zergs build a lot of spores vs terran if they are planning to play longer then 15 minutes.
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On June 20 2013 12:01 goody153 wrote:
MS - 2.7
AS - 2.5
should have been the increase .. the change is just too much
What is your evidence to support this statement?
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On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient.
Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
If the units get changed so no unit appears to be more powerful than others, what are we left with?
We players should try to play the game given to us instead of wanting a change of the ruleset.
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On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units.
I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same.
Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
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I play in Platinum and I have yet to see a warp prism this season.
Patch successful.
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On June 20 2013 22:05 syno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units. I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
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they should remove or nerf some allin harass from protoss this is pretty dumb the outrageous nimber of stupid easy to execute allin there is for P in PvT . this WP buff is good very good but should be balanced by a nerf of silly turbo dt or oracles
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 20 2013 22:09 SSVnormandy wrote:
they should remove or nerf some allin harass from protoss this is pretty dumb the outrageous nimber of stupid easy to execute allin there is for P in PvT . this WP buff is good very good but should be balanced by a nerf of silly turbo dt or oracles
Lol, this has nothing to do with oracles?
In case of DTs, same thing still applies. Scout, prepare, shut down, win.
Also what on earth is "allin harass"
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On June 20 2013 22:08 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:05 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units. I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense. Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency?
I'd say they kinda are, no?
You pay 50 minerals for a little marine who does little damage alone,
you pay alot more for a mighty collosus.
If a unit isn't cost effective at all, what's the point of even producing it?
I guess that's also a major problem with the hellbat, it does way too much for it's cost.
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On June 20 2013 22:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:09 SSVnormandy wrote:
they should remove or nerf some allin harass from protoss this is pretty dumb the outrageous nimber of stupid easy to execute allin there is for P in PvT . this WP buff is good very good but should be balanced by a nerf of silly turbo dt or oracles Lol, this has nothing to do with oracles? In case of DTs, same thing still applies. Scout, prepare, shut down, win. Also what on earth is "allin harass"
Something that lets them fly into his base and kill his stuff? There are points when I think the post can be boiled down to "My opponent was Protoss! WHY!?"
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Also for all the zergs whining about our drop capabilty, we have mutas.
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On June 20 2013 22:13 syno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:08 packrat386 wrote:On June 20 2013 22:05 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units. I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense. Marines and colossi need equal cost efficiency? I'd say they kinda are, no? You pay 50 minerals for a little marine who does little damage alone, you pay alot more for a mighty collosus. If a unit isn't cost effective at all, what's the point of even producing it? I guess that's also a major problem with the hellbat, it does way too much for it's cost.
Agree with you about the cost effectiveness though its not the only thing to consider.
The unit also has to be suply effective, specially in the late game when cost is less of an isue, and i do agree cost effectiveness and suply effectivness should be about equall for all units (else people would not make them indeed)
Maybe thats a reason why i see so little thors in pro games.
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On June 20 2013 22:05 syno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 22:01 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 21:52 syno wrote:On June 20 2013 21:50 [F_]aths wrote:On June 20 2013 08:06 Dudasc wrote:
What about hellbats?? I can't believe blizzard thinks hellbats are balanced A single unit is not supposed to be balanced. The races are intended to be balanced. Don't you balance the races by balancing the units? They already said they wanna do something about the hellbat, just be patient. Unit balance is not the only concern. Unless you are okay with only one race, you should want units with different strengths and some units stronger than others to create the possibility for some common strategies. If every unit would worth the same as any other, you don't really need different units. SC currently offers some bread-and-butter units for each race as well as some specialized units. I see your point, but imho, the cost effectiveness of every unit should be about the same. Ofc it always depends on the situation, what's how cost effective, if that makes sense.
I'm sure if you've been around here very long you've heard about how BW was the most balanced game of all time. The game was balanced the units however were not. There's a reason why building scouts was an insult.
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So, for all the people saying this change is probably not going to be big, I would say that even small changes to this game have HUGE ramifications. See Queen buff, bunker/barracks nerfs, changes made to blue flame, forge buffs etc. Every time a small change is made, it opens up new strategies and completely kills old ones. This will be no diffferent for this WP buff..the problem in TvP being that many of Terran strategies have already been killed off with heart of the swarm, and leaving us with surprisingly few timings to harass or attack, and most of those are substantially less threatening than before and carry much higher risk. Planetary Nexus/MSC has basically given protoss a ton more early options and set them up to have higher tech and safer "greedy" play to allow harass later. I don't feel like we have seen a lack of harassment from Protoss since Heart of the Swarm.
There is a heavy burden to stop the other races from getting a high tech army that we can't deal with cost effectively. Sure you can kill an army ..but then going on to kill a base or 2 before an instant remax or losing 50 supply to a stray storm or zealot warp in? Not so much. Heavy Mineral based units make up terrans army, whereas mineral units are mostly shields for high tech units of the other races, while also being extremely cost effective harass/trade units late game. zealot warp ins with upgrades require a larger amount of terran supply to deal with late game than can't usually be afforded to remove from the main battle, as well as a substantial amount of micro. (this is what DWF is getting at with the attention saturation point). I don't think that the warp prism late game is going to be that different, but it will certainly severely weaken any kind of chance to get an almost required edge in the midgame, and setup an economy that allows for cost effective trades which is already harder to do in Hots. Its become a risk to move your army out before you have medivacs and stim in the early game now in TvP..is the 2 medivac timing going to follow the same road? Are we headed for WoL TvZ type games?
At the same time, this is going to make all ins and some other heavy harass so much better. Immortal gateway all ins are going to be very difficult to deal with. There will no doubt be faster 4 gate WP type attacks making fast expands even less safe. I am particularly scared of DT builds. They already come at a time where terran is extremely mineral starved to afford those 2 turrets and if you were trying to do some kind of tech in response to it and mis micro you can actually just lose your few marines and instantly die..or if you aren't completely in position or know its coming you can lose enough scvs that the game is already over anyway. It is already a very good build and has very few drawbacks, but now it will come probably 10-15 seconds earlier?
As much terran concern as there is in this thread.. I actually think this is going to be even worse for zerg. I don't know enough about ZvP to write about it, but I've seen zealot warp ins or warp prism based all ins be so devastating already..faster timing and easier ways to get a proxy pylon up is going to make the matchup even more all in/timing focused.
I think it would be a little more fair to implement this buff if they at least brought back the original health of the warp prism. Remember when warp prisms were actually able to die from queens or a few marines/vikings? Like medivacs, WP now has the abiltiy to skirt around static D and units to get in position, so there is no reason why it needs to have buffed health as well. They should also look at nexus cannon because it doesnt promote any type of skill..it doesnt cost anything, and lasts very long for how powerful it is...but thats for another discussion.
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On June 20 2013 07:02 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 07:01 FXOTheoRy wrote:On June 20 2013 06:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 20 2013 06:54 Akusta wrote:
Prisms move faster than vikings. This is just silly. Yeah. Can't wait to have Zealots 24/7 rampaging my base because I can't finish a Prism with a Viking... speed medivacs same problem afaik barracks can't be put in medivacs
afaik you're an idiot because late game warp prisms have always been faster than this patch makes them
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On June 20 2013 21:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 21:23 buckKeefe wrote:On June 20 2013 21:15 Big J wrote:On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote:
sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you. i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point? you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it?
...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
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On June 20 2013 22:47 buckKeefe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 21:38 Big J wrote:On June 20 2013 21:23 buckKeefe wrote:On June 20 2013 21:15 Big J wrote:On June 20 2013 21:05 buckKeefe wrote:
sure, protoss *can* get speed late game; right now, they basically never do in my experience. theres a long history of patches increasing usage of strategies purely by calling attention to them (see the last time the WP got buffed as a prime example - although that time i think it was for the best). its not exactly free to build a turret ring around your 4-5 bases They added 60shields. Go ahead and recommend a buff to the medivac or the overlord by 60hitpoints (which isn't even as good as 60shields most of the time). And then never come back to TL, because people will hunt you. i dont understand. that particular buff made sense at the time bc WP were very fragile and hardly used at all. a similar buff to T/Z obviously wouldnt make sense. what is your point? you said that the first WP buff increased the WP usage because it called attention to the unit. Now you say it was a needed buff because it was overly fragile. (and therefore the usage increased because the unit became useful) So which one was it? ...both? those are not mutually exclusive. stronger unit + more attention -> more use
The nick name for the WP before the 60 shield buff was "The paper plane". I remember watching Nony trying to do immortal drops back then and the WP was being chased off by 2 marines. Or MC losing 4 high templar because a couple vikings looked at the WP for half a second.
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EPT
