Side effect to this banshee buff is the now dominant speed roach/baneling 1/1 timing vs terran will be less strong - banshees are amazing vs roach bling all ins.

Overall I think these three upgrades are a step in the right direction. To everyone saying 'hellbats wont change because terran can easily spare 150 gas' - it's all about the need to have a tech lab on your factory, which means they'll be lacking reactored hellbats for quite a while.

Destructicon

4713 Posts

June 14 2013 21:51 GMT

#203

I voted yes for the hellbat nerf, its a good elegant solution to the problem, it will delay the drops by long enough that you can get defenses and it doesn't nerf their mid game power.

I dislike the warp prism change, it I feel like protoss is indeed lacking in some area to truly make them competitive, but I don't think buffing their all-in potential is the way to go.

And I really like the banshee change, and I'm a terran. Banshees are much more micro-able then hellbats, it takes more seconds and a lot more micro and actions to kill the same number of workers that hellbats will kill, and they can be defended against a lot easier. I honestly think the backlash against the banshee change is unwarranted, the only thing it will force in TvT is just a mandatory engi bay at a time to have turrets in the mineral lines. You can better scout a banshee rush now with reapers, so that isn't going to be a problem, you could even deduce it if you see no expo by the 5:00 min time.

The banshee also has a finite time of how fast it can be rushed to. You first need to build a factory which takes 50 seconds to build, a SP which takes another 50 seconds, and build the banshee which takes 60 seconds, then you have 30 seconds until cloak finishes for the banshee. If you go 1 rax expo into double gas you'll start your 2 gasses at 3:45, meaning you'll have the gas for a factory at exactly 4:50, which results in the banshee first hitting with cloak at 8:00.

If you haven't managed to scout your opponent in the over 3 minutes of time it takes to build the factory, the SP and build the banshee+ research the cloak, then you deserve to lose.

Now with the 1 base variation, if you put down the gas at 12 you'll have enough to build your first fac at 3:00 or so, meaning the cloak banshee could hit as early as 6:10, I still think that's ample time to scout it and prepare, the worst thing it will force is a 5:00 engi bay.

Edit, there is also the hyper risky, 11 gas variation of banshee rush, that one can hit even earlier, however to accomplish this you have to take all the risks in the book, including skipping on units, making it not only easy to scout by reapers but a auto-lose in some cases if it gets scouted, because 1 lone reaper will be able to kill your entire mineral line, and he'll bring friends as well.

InVerno

258 Posts

June 14 2013 21:52 GMT

#204

The prism change will do nothing metagame wise, every P at a decent level knows it. A little more manouvrability but don't need to be scouted, don't need some answer or correct positioning like boostvacs.. just a little more easy to save and nothing more.

DaFoo

United States68 Posts

June 14 2013 21:53 GMT

#205

i agree with the warp prism changes, but not entirely sure about the Upgrade available. It seems that the upgrade would make prisms much too fast to use as a harassment unit.
While i was watching META, i do not think that the hellbat damage changes would be sufficient. they will still be hard to kill, will still be efficient at killing workers and using hellbats to defend your mineral line would be even less effective. Hellbats would still be a staple in all matchups with those changes.
The banshee change does not need to happen at all, this looks like too big of a change for the banshee as that strat would become too dominant and powerful in the early game. just imagine that cloak banshee proxied....it would be ridiculous

Rabiator

Germany3948 Posts

June 14 2013 21:54 GMT

#206

On June 15 2013 03:28 Hypemeup wrote:
Cloak buff is insane. 1Gas Banshee openings are possible now? It will be so fucking hard to read what people are doing now in tvt.

Still better then hellbats per minute now and it does not gimp hellbats in straight up fights. Blue flame change does seem fair, it is an effective way to reduce how effective Hellbat drops are.

I dont understand why they insist on changing the WP.

Arent all these changes absolutely clear?

Blizzard has said they want MORE AGGRESSION and the only way they feel that is possible is harrassment. They dont care if their changes make the game volatile and it seems we must now endure a period of Banshee harrassment being dominant again - Maru Prime vs. Keen on Red City in todays GSTL was an excellent "preview" of what is to come in TvT at least -... and the obligatory early Warp Prism harrass.

Kinda nice of them to save Protoss from needing forward pylons when they are pushing out with a Warp Prism ... that will save them a few hundred minerals later on to replace those pylons after they get killed and since they arent killed you dont run the risk of being supply blocked.

Killcycle

United States170 Posts

June 14 2013 21:55 GMT

#207

Hellbats should be 12 + 6 to light before upgrade, not 18 vs all. It's still a marauder at that stage. Or even 8 + 10 vs light, I dunno.

Godwrath

Spain10131 Posts

June 14 2013 21:57 GMT

#208

The banshee change is great, the hellbat nerf will stop hellbat drops entirely as worker harassment (you are better off with hellions until you get blue flame... and then you are better off using hellions too, i am speaking of tvt) and i don't know how to feel about the protoss changes, the race is just not good outside alliny builds imho, and the reason is not having harassment tools, because they do, but their deathball dependence on engagements.

midnight999

United States257 Posts

June 14 2013 21:57 GMT

#209

I also think that the Hellbat should be an armored unit instead of a light unit... I can't see how it's considered a light unit.

ZenithM

France15952 Posts

June 14 2013 21:57 GMT

#210

On June 15 2013 06:55 Killcycle wrote:
Hellbats should be 12 + 6 to light before upgrade, not 18 vs all. It's still a marauder at that stage. Or even 8 + 10 vs light, I dunno.

Come on this nerf should be enough. A well defended hellbat-drop shouldn't kill shit now.

LuckyFool

United States9015 Posts

June 14 2013 21:58 GMT

#211

why would blizz change banshees? Gas first banshee is going to be really dumb especially in TvT. you can go easily go cloak off 1gas with 100/100 cost too.

hellbats need to just be mech units already. I don't even think they really need damage nerf, biggest part of the problem is how strong they are with medivacs.

Rabiator

Germany3948 Posts

June 14 2013 21:58 GMT

#212

On June 15 2013 06:55 Killcycle wrote:
Hellbats should be 12 + 6 to light before upgrade, not 18 vs all. It's still a marauder at that stage. Or even 8 + 10 vs light, I dunno.

It isnt a Marauder because of the range.

DinoMight

United States3725 Posts

June 14 2013 21:59 GMT

#213

Siegeless tanks and now cheaper faster cloak?

Brace yourselves...

...1-1-1s are coming

Gamegene

United States8308 Posts

June 14 2013 22:00 GMT

#214

cloak will never be as strong as it once was vs the other races because the widow mine exists in the game.

this change is just completely unnecessary as they even admitted, and no one likes playing the retarded coinflip banshee games in TvT.

god just makes me angry when they throw shit in for no reason.

RandomAccount#282689

42 Posts

June 14 2013 22:01 GMT

#215

--- Nuked ---

Rabiator

Germany3948 Posts

June 14 2013 22:03 GMT

#216

On June 15 2013 06:57 Godwrath wrote:
The banshee change is great, the hellbat nerf will stop hellbat drops entirely as worker harassment (you are better off with hellions until you get blue flame... and then you are better off using hellions too, i am speaking of tvt) and i don't know how to feel about the protoss changes, the race is just not good outside alliny builds imho, and the reason is not having harassment tools, because they do, but their deathball dependence on engagements.

No it wont ... just use a "Hellbat + 2 Hellions" drop instead ... use the Hellbat to scare workers away (at 18 damage it will still kill with 3 shots) and then drop the Hellions at the spot which the workers are runnig towards. The cone-AoE will always be great against workers, BUT it will make it easier to defend against this with Zerglings!

OneSpeed

Norway47 Posts

June 14 2013 22:07 GMT

#217

Totally agree with Cloak research time and recourcess for them. Terran tech is so expensive and hard to change.

Only people who have better micro will do cloak openings, as it takes constant micro as well as macro behind it. You guys think playing Terran is like: "do this and this and win". Why don't you try offracing and see for yourselves.

Well done blizz.