On July 04 2013 20:09 EZR-Aeron wrote: Blue flame upgrade makes them go from 18 damage to 18 + 12 vs light Make them non-healable by medivacs but repairable by scvs. How can hellions (mech) transform into a living construction (bio) I don't know (and I play terran).
I'm happy that more people are suggesting siege tank buffs. roll back patch 1.1.0 for 50 flat siege mode damage (maybe a bonus vs shields) and remove hellbats from the game.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots?
Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance".
Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible.
Why don't YOU adjust your tankusage? It's you who started the whining about the tank not meeting YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
Not gonna comment much more on that. If you think that marines can stim-move over siegetanks you are just lacking gameknowledge.
On July 04 2013 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
On July 04 2013 03:17 Big J wrote:
On July 04 2013 03:02 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On July 04 2013 01:30 Big J wrote:
On July 03 2013 22:38 Rabiator wrote:
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ...
Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this.
quote, quote, quote. Obviously we are reading different comments, because the ones that I know said things along the lines of: "We try to make mech viable but won't force it." Never have I read the sentence "We hate mech." But I'm sure you can find it.
1. How am I going to change tank useage and improve mech, when spreading them out is stupid because it lowers the damage from "pitiful" to "negligible" in all the areas. If you must pull such stupid comments stick to being reasonable because the stuff I suggested was reasonable ... those things arent used right now because you can just kill a mech army by a-moving into it with lots of stuff. Dropping units on top of it isnt necessary.
2. Right now I cant really find a direct quote of David Kim saying that (and he will never say "we hate mech" anyways), BUT you can pretty much deduce it from the stuff he says. Take the interview with Apollo and listen to what he says and what he likes. - action is good, we want more of it - paraphrased - "mech is kinda stale" - quote - "bio is just so exciting to watch" - quote - "do we even want mech to be as viable as bio?" - quote (*1) Add those things together with the unit design from HotS and the nonexistent attempts to fix mech (= the Siege Tank) and you get to where I am. Blizzard doesnt like mech because it is "non-action-style" and they want SC2 to be an ACTION focused game. These kind of comments were made on more than just this interview and he always says "we" ... so it is the entire dev team that shares this opinion.
I think I read a comment from him that stated they would always keep bio more (or at least equally) viable compared to mech, but I cant find that atm. The interview above is clear enough IMO.
(*1) This is a question they ask themselves, BUT the fact that they are asking it tells a whole story. All strategies should be made equally viable to have the biggest variety of playstyles to prevent the game from becoming stale.
1. You simply can't a-move over siege tanks when they are properly positioned in TvT. If you deny that then it is simply no use to talk with you about the siege tank. mid/lategame TvT is hugely about tanks, no matter if you play biomech or mech. 2. That doesn't mean that they don't want mech to work. It means that they don't know how to fix it - at least not in an interesting and balanced way. Blizzard has no problem with Mech. But they won't be "fixing" something unless it is needed. And the siege tank is such a thing that is not needed.
And just to be clear. I think they SHOULD focus on diversifying playstyles and fixing the tank is a huge part of that. Still your suggestion is horrible, as it destroys other playstyles in TvT and may not even fix mech, but most likely just overpower midgame TvZ biomech.
Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
On July 04 2013 20:49 Ghanburighan wrote: Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
Wow! It's actually good (since spore now has +bio)! +Armored is just way too much though (my overbros will die too quick!). But the thing is that it still does not stop hellbat drop being cost effective in 8min mark. At 8 min, it is hard to make enough turret to protect speedvac to drop and go, leaving the hellbats to do their job.
EDIT: your spoiler actually made me very sad... I WANT MOR CARRIERS!!!!
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is: 1. siege tank 2. widow mine 3. hellion. 4. raven
Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots.
Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
It is bad and can u explain why? this does not have any relation to splash. The problem in TvT is it is too easy/fast to drop in 7mins time (well this is true for all match ups) and defenses cannot be set up in time or it is not effiecient. Waste a bunker and marines in each mineral line? a turret? no problem just suicide the medivac, 200 minerals is nothing to a muling terran.
I can comment on your widow mine issue but it has nothing to do about the hellbat suggestions. you can still have them do splash damage vs protoss, vs voids by proper deployment in mass. I could put a vod link but I would leave that for you to look since it seems you dont know what you are talking about. And wtf? siege tank nerfs? late game hellion runbys WUT?
I you think you have some better ideas, try to post it. Your explanation about splash again has nothing to do with the ideas above, you should feel bad for that
Simple. Mech has low unit count, each unit must count in order to survive mid-game attacks. Which was why BW had firebats AND spider mines both available immediately without teching up.
WoL Terran had no choice but to go mass marine/hellion and micro heavily (lining up the flames while kiting marines back) just to trade equally against ling/roach, zealot/archon, when they can just a-move. Hardly fair. With the introduction of hellbats, both players can theoretically come out equal if microed equally. E.g. A-moved hellbat/marine trades well with a-moved mass ling/roach and mass zealot/archon.
I like how you shoot yourself in the foot by first saying how easy it is to drop in 7min but its impossible to defend against them even though both have access to the same tech tree, income levels and abilities...
Since you've not been reading my past posts. Let me repeat. The cost of two turrets and a WM w/ ebay (400m 25g) is CHEAPER than MEDIVAC & TWO HELLBATS w/ Armory (450m 200g).
Every second the opponent spends dodging turrets is doing indirect damage, same as sniping a queen. Stop them before they land, force them to drop further from your mineral line and closer to your ramp with your army.
How in the world could you compare hellbats to spidermines? Can you speedivac firebats in steroids with cone splash + healing in BW? Your BW reference failed hard like your explanation. Mech has low unit count because it is tank(3 psi) heavy. In BW it is not that low count cause you have goliaths(2 psi) in SC2 it is because of thors do the math. You dont justify hellbat because of mech, hellbat is being utilized in bio and mech and does not have any relation to what we are discussing.
So you want the game to be A-modable? you want all races to mass up and A-mode? you are playing the wrong game, play some command and conquer red alert if u want to mass up and A mode. And PS roach ling will loose to marine/hellion anytime.
Okay, the 7 minute drop is easy to defend? wow you are too good then, you can tell that to MVP and Innovation doing hellbat drops with each other. And let me remind you that 2 turrets do not move compared to 2 hellbats. Wasting 200 minerals to non moving units in each base is a good idea eh? Even vikings just watch till the speedivac drops hell on workers and even the damn army.
On July 04 2013 22:29 monkybone wrote: The solution to making mech work in tvp is to add and upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields for the tank in siege mode. Just like for the widow mine.
But you know that +dmg to shield was VERY weird and sily I actually wanted to change that into +light but that gave me tons of problems... mech is hard to touch now. (maybe we should wait till Lov comes out )
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
While it would help, it would be a fucking drop in the ocean of making mech TvP decent. Just remove the fucking unit and do what actually needs to be done - bringing the tank back. Because the shitbag we have right is not how I remember a tank.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
While it would help, it would be a fucking drop in the ocean of making mech TvP decent. Just remove the fucking unit and do what actually needs to be done - bringing the tank back. Because the shitbag we have right is not how I remember a tank.
Yep. BW tank was a nightmare...
tank should be on the next balance testing as soon as hellbat fix is done.
On July 04 2013 22:29 monkybone wrote: The solution to making mech work in tvp is to add and upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields for the tank in siege mode. Just like for the widow mine.
But you know that +dmg to shield was VERY weird and sily I actually wanted to change that into +light but that gave me tons of problems... mech is hard to touch now. (maybe we should wait till Lov comes out )
i don't think waiting will fix our problems.. in WOL we were saying the same think (maybe we should wait till hots comes out).. blizzard should address the balance/design issues now before it's too late.
On July 04 2013 22:29 monkybone wrote: The solution to making mech work in tvp is to add and upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields for the tank in siege mode. Just like for the widow mine.
But you know that +dmg to shield was VERY weird and sily I actually wanted to change that into +light but that gave me tons of problems... mech is hard to touch now. (maybe we should wait till Lov comes out )
i don't think waiting will fix our problems.. in WOL we were saying the same think (maybe we should wait till hots comes out).. blizzard should address the balance/design issues now before it's too late.
I know... but THEY NEVER DO! THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Even back in BW, they were still fixing bugs and balances for almost 10 yrs...
I don't know. blizzard don't listen to us no matter what we do in here, in battlenet, or in other big sc2 communities. I hope one day they join our discussions and listen to us.
On July 04 2013 20:49 Ghanburighan wrote: Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
Wouldn't that weaken bio even more vs Mech? damage buff + hi-sec auto tracking + vikings(maybe) = good luck trying to drop a mech player.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
I am just facinated with people trying to separate mech and bio for terran wanting for them to work separately like they are terran A and terran B playstyle which is just dumb. Why would you want to do that? Bio has it's advantages and mech has too. They also need to have disadvantages at some point or else how can you beat them. Don't start complaining about this needs to be viable pure mech whine since when did protoss just made all gateway units until late game? or zerg just made all melee or all range lategame? well hydra roach I guess but hell you need to mix it up or just make it work not complain the hell to make it work.
And dont start with comparing BW with SC2, BW is a totally different game with it's ancient AI and pathing.
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
Sorry I dont have the luxury of time reading the whole 40 pages of discussions.
but number 1 would not reduce its durability because it has still 135 hp. It would only slow the rate of heal in which they are practically immoral against zerg units if you have high medivac count. And yes this is a game mechanic, does not matter if it is not in SC2 alpha? why? because it is an update. Change is constant and we are now in HOTs, maybe in LoV we could have real firebats and actual medics back, who knows? Maybe warhounds will do a comeback. You cant justify starcraft for being realistic? This is a fiction game. Where can u find dudes making blades from thoughts? Does not matter if it makes more sense if they are bio/mech coming from a factory, maybe when he transforms he exposes his ass and makes him bio, we dont know he just does it.
The damage in number 2 is solely for the 2 hit worker kill which makes it 1 hit since you have 2 hellbats in a drop. This affects all match ups as worker HPs are 40, 40, 45. Has nothing to do with TvT or any other specific matchups.
The only thing it would make is delay the 7:30 minute drop that is too fast to do. maybe it would make it 8:30 this time, gives any race ample time to defend and not make them too far behind for defending.
The armored suggestion can work but it would need careful reviews has to add +1 armor to it or just leave it 0 default armor. Yeah meatshields tend to be armored right? and not light? if it makes sense to you that they have armored shields in their arms, suddenly have 35 more HP and slowed movement speed then yes armored makes most sense.
I read the whole OP post but again with the 40 pages of whine and for the interest of my time, i cant read 40 pages. I would just provide what I think are appropriate and I think the more similar the suggestion the more people seems to agree.
facepalmd...
no1- Its from SC I alpha. you didn't read a single post carefully did you?
I said: And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
no2- ONLY TvT suffers from early drops. Thats why I said hellbat should have 18+4 when they come out (so that they will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots drones and probes)
We don't want hellbat drops to be totally disappear. We just want hellbat drops less effective and less be seen.
no3- being light will make it NOT countered by + armor types which counter other mechs like tanks and thors.
And you said in no1 it doesn't matter the hellbat to be real life logical but you want to include real life logic to make 'sense'??? in no3?
Edit:Man, if you are trolling, you really got me.
why do you keep comparing SC2 alpha, BW and SC2 whatever version with HOTs? That is why we are now in HOTs, please move on.
point 1 does not have to do with drops, it has to do with A moving all around meatshield problem. for drops we have option no. 2 and 3.
Yes, again, option 2 and 3 will make it less effective or come later. Please read carefully.
no4 (armour type) you mean? not no.3 (transform option). As I said, it will need careful considerations but still thats why you build banshees for this not mass hellbats.
Do you even mech? Mech is not attack move, it is tank positioning and having advantages with possition and when sieged up. You cant just a-move with hellbats tank and thors, nope just cant work...
On July 04 2013 20:49 Ghanburighan wrote: Thinking about Flash v Innovation, where one of them chose to build turrets and the other did not, I wonder if the solution to helping TvT without changing the other MU's might be in the turret. After the infamous spore buff, we could consider buffing turret damage to mechanical by +3 (total DPS v mechanical would be 30, as opposed to 24 due to 2x).
This means that boosting into mineral lines becomes much more risky if there are well placed turrets.
This would only have an effect on the medivac (desirable, will go down in 5 shots, instead of 7), BC (inconsequential, turrets still not a good response with 19 shots, instead of 23), vikings (have no business flying around turrets), void ray (9 shots instead of 11, potentially weakening the void ray all-in, but that's probably not a bad thing. It's very rare already and P has quite a few all-ins anyway) and the warp prism (dies to 7 shots instead of 9). I would be ok with warp prisms dying to turrets in 2 more shots because you really have no need to fly into turrets, you can warp in at a distance (which is standard now). If you really dislike this, you can buff the turret against armored units, but that excludes warp prism but brings in corruptors (also not a bad thing, corruptors have no business flying into turrets), but also overlord and overseers, weakening Z scouting and drop play. Armored buff keeps all the other units.
Whether you buff turret damage against mech or armor, Carriers would also be included. But since we haven't seen carriers in years, it's not that important.
Do try to tear this proposal apart, I'm more inclined to weather the hellbat storm than to make a volatile change.
Wouldn't that weaken bio even more vs Mech? damage buff + hi-sec auto tracking + vikings(maybe) = good luck trying to drop a mech player.
Yes and no. Yes, it makes it much more difficult to drop a meching player, but the drops are not as localized. So, finding a place where to off-load 4 medivacs full of marauders is not as difficult as for the meching player to find a mineral line to drop. Everyone agrees that bio is very weak at the moment, and this will overall strengthen bio because the meching players cannot hellbat drop you to death.
EPT
