EPTDavid Kim comments on Hellbat drops - Page 42
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable. Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are: - Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ... The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius. The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units. Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 03 2013 22:38 Rabiator wrote: Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are: - Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ... The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius. The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units. Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it. You forget: Workers die in clumps (just what terran needs, more ways to kill workers quickly) Buildings die faster Marines die in 1 hit Marauders die in 2 hits instead of 3 Hellions die in 2 instead of 3 Basically everything dies in 1-3 less hits. 70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever. | ||
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EFermi
United States165 Posts
On July 03 2013 22:38 Rabiator wrote: Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are: - Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ... The primary radius is TINY and I think about three Zerglings fill it up, so not many units will be hit by any increase in damage but the real change comes from the secondary and tertiary radius. The real reason why Blizzard dont make any serious effort of fixing mech is that they hate it with a passion. It seems quite odd that they added so many anti-tank units to the other races and then leave the playstyle useless as a dead goldfish. They are fully in the "speed is best to make a STRATEGY game interesting" mode ... which is ludicrous, because strategy is more than a build order but also premeditated and carefully executed unit movement. Thus we get improved harrassment units and not improved army units for Terran. A clear indicator is the "new AA mode" for the Thor ... which deals roughly the same damage as a Goliath from BW against a single target ... and that with more easily mass produced air units. Thus any of the "oh lets just require transformation to get Hellbats" or "put bonus damage into an upgrade" are fine and well, but they wont be implemented because Blizzard like harrassment and has said they want more of it. Yep, SC2 is BARELY a strategy game at this point. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 03 2013 22:52 TheRabidDeer wrote: You forget: Workers die in clumps (just what terran needs, more ways to kill workers quickly) Buildings die faster Marines die in 1 hit Marauders die in 2 hits instead of 3 Hellions die in 2 instead of 3 Basically everything dies in 1-3 less hits. 70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever. And what is the problem with needing fewer hits than they need now? The current damage is LAUGHABLE because it FORCES you to have all your Siege Tanks in one tight army and even then you get overrun by Zerglings and whatnot and lose OR they run past you and simply destroy your vital production (which is hardest for Terrans to even get due to the addons and the need to have an SCV construct the building in the first place). The fact is that most people who blabber on about Siege Tanks dealing such an awesome damage totally ignore the nature of splash damage and the tiny area of the core radius. They are usually blinded by the visually large explosions on the battlefield and in my opinion it is time to make these visuals have some meaning again ... to be threatening! On July 03 2013 23:26 EFermi wrote: Yep, SC2 is BARELY a strategy game at this point. I call it an RTA(ction) game now ... | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Splash isnt the only thing that makes them strong, it is their range and their damage. | ||
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rezzan
Sweden329 Posts
A zerg roach with AOE damage thats essentially what it is.. speaking of wich, hellbats>roaches as far as i know they should only be strong vs light units,(lings,drones,hydras,marines,zealots etc) and get countered or at least be non-effective vs roaches,queens etc, that can help out alot , but at this stage they dont.. they completely own roaches.. luckily alot of terrans in my skill level dont go hellbats.. | ||
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Radel
United States115 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 03 2013 22:38 Rabiator wrote: Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are: - Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ... 60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 03 2013 18:37 woreyour wrote: It is bad and can u explain why? this does not have any relation to splash. The problem in TvT is it is too easy/fast to drop in 7mins time (well this is true for all match ups) and defenses cannot be set up in time or it is not effiecient. Waste a bunker and marines in each mineral line? a turret? no problem just suicide the medivac, 200 minerals is nothing to a muling terran. I can comment on your widow mine issue but it has nothing to do about the hellbat suggestions. you can still have them do splash damage vs protoss, vs voids by proper deployment in mass. I could put a vod link but I would leave that for you to look since it seems you dont know what you are talking about. And wtf? siege tank nerfs? late game hellion runbys WUT? I you think you have some better ideas, try to post it. Your explanation about splash again has nothing to do with the ideas above, you should feel bad for that  Simple. Mech has low unit count, each unit must count in order to survive mid-game attacks. Which was why BW had firebats AND spider mines both available immediately without teching up. WoL Terran had no choice but to go mass marine/hellion and micro heavily (lining up the flames while kiting marines back) just to trade equally against ling/roach, zealot/archon, when they can just a-move. Hardly fair. With the introduction of hellbats, both players can theoretically come out equal if microed equally. E.g. A-moved hellbat/marine trades well with a-moved mass ling/roach and mass zealot/archon. I like how you shoot yourself in the foot by first saying how easy it is to drop in 7min but its impossible to defend against them even though both have access to the same tech tree, income levels and abilities... Since you've not been reading my past posts. Let me repeat. The cost of two turrets and a WM w/ ebay (400m 25g) is CHEAPER than MEDIVAC & TWO HELLBATS w/ Armory (450m 200g). Every second the opponent spends dodging turrets is doing indirect damage, same as sniping a queen. Stop them before they land, force them to drop further from your mineral line and closer to your ramp with your army. | ||
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AlphaMan
13 Posts
On July 04 2013 02:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Simple. Mech has low unit count, each unit must count in order to survive mid-game attacks. Which was why BW had firebats AND spider mines both available immediately without teching up. WoL Terran had no choice but to go mass marine/hellion and micro heavily (lining up the flames while kiting marines back) just to trade equally against ling/roach, zealot/archon, when they can just a-move. Hardly fair. With the introduction of hellbats, both players can theoretically come out equal if microed equally. E.g. A-moved hellbat/marine trades well with a-moved mass ling/roach and mass zealot/archon. I like how you shoot yourself in the foot by first saying how easy it is to drop in 7min but its impossible to defend against them even though both have access to the same tech tree, income levels and abilities... Since you've not been reading my past posts. Let me repeat. The cost of two turrets and a WM w/ ebay (400m 25g) is CHEAPER than MEDIVAC & TWO HELLBATS w/ Armory (450m 200g). Every second the opponent spends dodging turrets is doing indirect damage, same as sniping a queen. Stop them before they land, force them to drop further from your mineral line and closer to your ramp with your army. It's not as easy as you make it sound. I've seen top Terran players like MVP have problems dealing with these drops | ||
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bjornkavist
Canada1235 Posts
On June 11 2013 10:56 jcroisdale wrote: Something there not even considering is there late game utility. TvP when the terran goes mech, is so much stronger, because the hellbat is such an efficient harassment unit. The early game attacks are hard, but late game is just as difficult. Sounds just like late game TvP in BW to me | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On July 04 2013 01:30 Big J wrote: 60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max. The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 04 2013 03:02 AnomalySC2 wrote: The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks. I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
On July 04 2013 03:17 Big J wrote: I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP. It's not that they're not needed, it's just in TvP bio needs mobility which tanks can't give and widowmines unless you're amazing at sniping observers (which bio can't really do as well as mech) widowmines just get owned by collosus. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Have terrans experimented with using hellbat + hellion + widow mine drops against Z and P? They all fit into a single medivac and if you drop hellbat + hellion first they may not see the widow mine, or if you drop the mine first they may expect more mines or marines instead. Also, hellbat + hellion still 2 shot workers, and hellions can also chase the workers that got away after the first hellbat was dropped. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 04 2013 01:30 Big J wrote: 60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max. Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots? Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance". Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible. On July 04 2013 03:17 Big J wrote: I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP. Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ... Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Another change that I'd like to see for mech is +1 or +2 extra range on call down nuke. This would make TvT tank standoffs much more fun to watch, without affecting other matchups too much. (You would still need a unit/scan to provide vision in order to Nuke the full range) | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:13 RoboBob wrote: I think it would be interesting to try adding +10 damage vs Massive on Tanks, but only when they are in siege mode. So it would only affect Tank matchups vs Thor/Archon/Collossi/Ultralisk/Buildings. It would help make mech a little more viable in TvZ and TvP without being completely overpowered. Protoss would still be able to counter Tanks with Zealot/Immortal/any air unit, and Zerg would still be able to counter with Swarm Host/Viper/any air unit. But because there would be less units to counter tanks, it would be easier to build an army composition that includes them. Another change that I'd like to see for mech is +1 or +2 extra range on call down nuke. This would make TvT tank standoffs much more fun to watch, without affecting other matchups too much. (You would still need a unit/scan to provide vision in order to Nuke the full range) Useless ... because sieged Tanks die to Zealots, massive numbers of Zerglings and not to Archons, Colossi, Thors and such. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced. | ||
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