On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots?
Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance".
Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible.
Why don't YOU adjust your tankusage? It's you who started the whining about the tank not meeting YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
Not gonna comment much more on that. If you think that marines can stim-move over siegetanks you are just lacking gameknowledge.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ...
Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this.
quote, quote, quote. Obviously we are reading different comments, because the ones that I know said things along the lines of: "We try to make mech viable but won't force it." Never have I read the sentence "We hate mech." But I'm sure you can find it.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
I am not saying you need to buff the tank. The reason for the tank being inferior in Starcraft 2 is higher cost in supply, faster unit movement and bigger armies in smaller areas. The tank can still be a very good tool for offence and defence and I think no one doubts that a well positioned tankline is devastating. Everyone that ever played against a good mech user will agree. So yes, I wasn't argueing the point that we need a 70 flat damage tank (lol, I'm bio user, get out of my way with a 70 damage flat tank T_T) but without smart fire I would also say the old-tank wouldn't be overpowered.
Personally I feel there's no need to buff the tank. It has its role as defensive tool and does work against certain styles as well. I'd rather say leave the game as it is now. The only change I'd like to see is a change of the MSC. The mothership core currently provides too much offensive potential while also granting defensive potential to a level that shuts down every early game aggression that Terran has to offer.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
Full Romanian I guess t.t
I didnt feel any sarcasm there, so apparently. Or maybe you need to work on your sarcasm. I didnt read all your posts in the thread so I dont know your stance on the matter =\
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
Full Romanian I guess t.t
I didnt feel any sarcasm there, so apparently. Or maybe you need to work on your sarcasm. I didnt read all your posts in the thread so I dont know your stance on the matter =\
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
I dont? I kind of explained it in several posts about it used to doing massive overdamage. Or did you not understand my post was sarcastic in nature?
"70 dmg worked in BW because you could force 15 tanks to fire on 1 unit, that doesnt happen in sc2. 70 damage will not happen, ever." "In BW, tanks were strong at 70 damage. You usually dragged mines to deal friendly fire and used methods of drawing their fire such that they wasted a lot of shots. In SC2, that doesnt happen. 20 +3 weapon siege tanks would beat anything on the ground." I even demonstrated the effects of smart shot back during the beta in 2011 + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw88bbU8lys
EDIT: Not during beta, thought I had one that was. EDIT2: Found it, I had one from july 2010, but people werent satisfied with the tests so I made the above one in 2011
Full Romanian I guess t.t
I didnt feel any sarcasm there, so apparently. Or maybe you need to work on your sarcasm. I didnt read all your posts in the thread so I dont know your stance on the matter =\
On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote: I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
First, the first option is about reducing durability of hellbat (not making early drop 3 shot. maybe you have mixed up numbers? ). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. And I hoped you have read some other posts that making hellbat less heal or even not healable still kills enough workers and defences when dropped (I.E still cost-effective).
Secondly, no 2 is what actually blizzard suggested and not good because it affects other match ups that are not TvT (please read previous posts). That's why I wanted hellbat dmg to be less nerfed.
Thirdly, if you have to get current hellbat after factory-> armory-> techlab on the factory, then research, would you use it? This will nerf not only hellbat drop but also hellbat itself too much in ALL match ups.
Also, making armored (I thought I posted only few posts ago???) will make hellbat blowed by other +armor attackers, which will also affect not only drops but hellbat in general. Hellbat is the meatshield for mech because other mechs are armored but hellbat is not armored.
Hope I have explained well. XP Please read whole posts (I actually did!) because I don't want people just jump in and saying something that what already has been discussed.
Edit: when I say 'affects', it means it affects TOO MUCH.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
So your suggestion is: leaving 35+15 vs armored but adding extra dmg(+35 light?)? Can a unit have that complexed stat? Edit: Tell me if i'm wrong
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
Oh sure ... one-shotting 3 Marines will totally break TvT. Maybe the bio player will need to adjust his use of the Marines OR maybe lead on with a few Marauders to take the shots?
Honestly such "it will totally break X or Y" or "it wont work" posts are just as bad as anything Blizzard comes up with. The whole problem is YOUR EXPECTATION of the matchup. You simply got used to the way in which Blizzard designed the game - i.e. stim and a-move -, but that doesnt mean it is "the truth" or "the only way to balance".
Since the bio player can more easily rebuild his Marines it should be ok that the Siege Tanks "annihilate" (speak: are pretty strong against) Marines. You arent supposed to win by a-moving squishy units into a sieged up tank line. Maybe you need to drop some Hellbats on top of the tanks, maybe micro - yes, that would be a first for SC2 forcing the ATTACKER to micro - and move in with Marauders first. Maybe you need to gain air superiority first before attacking tanks, maybe you need to ignore the tanks and drop multiple locations ... the possibilities are much greater than "bio ball vs bio ball" ... but sadly Blizzard doesnt want the game to be flexible.
Why don't YOU adjust your tankusage? It's you who started the whining about the tank not meeting YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
Not gonna comment much more on that. If you think that marines can stim-move over siegetanks you are just lacking gameknowledge.
On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote: And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Fixing mech is actually quite easy ... just change the damage of the Siege Tank from ridiculously low 35 + 15 vs armored to flat 70 damage. Sure that sounds like a lot, but is it really? The big changes are:
- Zerglings die from 1 shot in the primary AND the secondary splash radius - Zealots die from 2.5 shots instead of 5 shots ... but only in the primary splash radius which isnt really that big - Stalkers die in 3 shots instead of 4 ... primary radius only - ...
60or more flat damage would completely break TvZ and TvT, as tanks would one shot marines and kill 2times as many banelings/zerglings per shot. Of course it's easy as hell to make something viable by making it totally overpowered. However I can't believe that anybody would start playing mech in TvZ due to this. Suddenly each of your tankshots is like a 13range widow mine vs banelings. The ultimate marinespam can begin... or reach a new max.
The reality is they want widow mines to be your go to splash damage as terran, and tanks are more or less a support/defense unit. I think it works better this way in sc2. Mines need to be fairly close to their target to actually work, so it encourages more action packed games when compared to large stalemate siege tank lines. I also think it takes a little more skill to control bunches of mines than it does tanks.
I don't think that blizzard at this point really "wants" something apart from balance. They have commented more than they will try to bring variety into the game if it is easy, but they won't force things. It just turns out at this point that WMs are a more stable option in TvZ, and tanks in TvT and neither is needed in TvP.
Are you really this simple minded and dont see the evidence for what it is? There have been comments from David Kim about making sure that bio is being kept more viable than mech on purpose because they dont like mech. Havent you realized the "trend" with HotS to "more mobility" and "more harrassment" (which is the opposite to slow methodical and systematic siege play)? Havent you read the comments by the Blizzard team that they want to make the game more aggressive (which is the reason for more speed and harrassment). Put this together and you get a pretty clear picture that Blizzard devs have "a vision" and that they will stop at nothing to make it work. In case you doubt me just a quick reminder about the Spore Crawler change ...
Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "Real Time Action" game instead of a "Real Time Strategy" game and they are doing everything to keep it that way. The things they added in HotS clearly show this.
quote, quote, quote. Obviously we are reading different comments, because the ones that I know said things along the lines of: "We try to make mech viable but won't force it." Never have I read the sentence "We hate mech." But I'm sure you can find it.
1. How am I going to change tank useage and improve mech, when spreading them out is stupid because it lowers the damage from "pitiful" to "negligible" in all the areas. If you must pull such stupid comments stick to being reasonable because the stuff I suggested was reasonable ... those things arent used right now because you can just kill a mech army by a-moving into it with lots of stuff. Dropping units on top of it isnt necessary.
2. Right now I cant really find a direct quote of David Kim saying that (and he will never say "we hate mech" anyways), BUT you can pretty much deduce it from the stuff he says. Take the interview with Apollo and listen to what he says and what he likes. - action is good, we want more of it - paraphrased - "mech is kinda stale" - quote - "bio is just so exciting to watch" - quote - "do we even want mech to be as viable as bio?" - quote (*1) Add those things together with the unit design from HotS and the nonexistent attempts to fix mech (= the Siege Tank) and you get to where I am. Blizzard doesnt like mech because it is "non-action-style" and they want SC2 to be an ACTION focused game. These kind of comments were made on more than just this interview and he always says "we" ... so it is the entire dev team that shares this opinion.
I think I read a comment from him that stated they would always keep bio more (or at least equally) viable compared to mech, but I cant find that atm. The interview above is clear enough IMO.
(*1) This is a question they ask themselves, BUT the fact that they are asking it tells a whole story. All strategies should be made equally viable to have the biggest variety of playstyles to prevent the game from becoming stale.
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:19 Big J wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:06 NarutO wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
So your suggestion is: leaving 35+15 vs armored but adding extra dmg(+35 light?)? Can a unit have that complexed stat? Edit: Tell me if i'm wrong
You are wrong ... and I thought "70 damage" was clear enough. It is a flat 70 damage ... against everything ... because splash reduces it for the outer radius a lot.
Just look at the core radius of the Siege Tank attack, which is "0.4687 matrices" ... RADIUS. It isnt explained anywhere, but from the visuals I think it is safe to assume that "1 matric = length of a building block square" and that is TINY; if my assumption is correct the core area covers only 70% of one square ...
So is the increase in damage I propose really that huge when it affects only a rather tiny amount of space at its maximum potential?
Reducing basic hellbat damage and adding infernal pre-igniter should do the job. And reducing the cargo space from 4 to 2. Then early hellbats aren't as good so it is possible to defend an early bat drop. However in the mid/late game, hellbat drop is more deadly than ever but the opponent has plenty of time to react e.g. sensor towers, observers, phoenixes, cannons, overlords, mutas, spores. Problem solved.
Blue flame upgrade makes them go from 18 damage to 18 + 12 vs light Make them non-healable by medivacs but repairable by scvs. How can hellions (mech) transform into a living construction (bio) I don't know (and I play terran).
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
Now you are ridiculous. Siege Tanks have underperformed ever since the map size got bigger than Steppes of War where the current tank values for damage were balanced on. For such tiny/small maps that might be okish, because you can have all your tanks affect the whole map basically, but what about large maps like Whirlwind? Tanks dont have the mobility - which is good - to keep up with other types of armies, but to balance the size of the map you need to spread out your forces much more to be able to defend everywhere. Terrans have no "vs ground" static defense that can be massed for base defense (the Planetary Fortress doesnt really count because it cant be built behind a mineral line for example and due to its size placement is limited).
- If you are soooo fixed on the idea that Siege Tanks are "fine" then tell me why they only one-shot three lousy Zerglings with one shot. In BW they did the same damage to Zerglings as they do now, BUT there were far fewer Zerglings rushing the tanks AND the area of the attack was larger. - People have complained about dying to Zealots in mech TvP and so the Hellbat had to be invented. Did it really? Nope, because giving the Siege Tank a reasonable damage against light instead of a negligible one is ok. - Have you forgotten about the FRIENDLY FIRE splash damage? Any buff to the Siege Tank damage will make them die more easily from friendly fire.
So I think there are quite a lot of arguments why my suggestion would not make the Siege Tank absolutely ridiculously OP.
On July 04 2013 15:19 Big J wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:06 NarutO wrote:
On July 04 2013 15:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: While we are doubling the damage of units, why not double the damage of storm? What about ultralisks? Its not big deal. You can dodge all storms or emp the templar. You can kite ultralisks forever, it doesnt matter that they will 1 shot many things and 2 shot the rest.
The siege tank hasnt had 70 damage EVER in SC2. First it was 60, this was OP so they nerfed it to 50. They still werent happy so they nerfed it to 35 +15 armored. Despite it being nerfed to this level, mech is strong in TvT (well, less now than before but still very good) and can be good in TvZ. If you buffed it from 35 +15 to straight 70 it WILL be overpowered and I cant imagine the thought process going through your head that doubling damage is in any way a good change when the game is so close to balanced.
You don't even seem to understand the tank mechanics. It did massive overdamage, now it does not. Thats why it is strong to begin with. Because of smart fire. Also you cannot kite ultralisks forever, and if you do with bio you better do it horribly well and off-creep, otherwise your bio gets torn to pieces in less than a second. I am not saying its imbalanced, but blatantly making it sound piss easy is hilarious.
That's true. But not even broodwar featured 70flat damage such as rabiator demands. Apart from overkill (which he didn't demand), broodwar tanks did 35 vs small 52.5 vs medium 70 vs large
It's just a wrong demand, there is no need to buff tanks vs marine, hellion, zergling, baneling, hydralisk and would severly screw with the balance of biomech vs Z and biomech vs mech. The tank should get a different fix, not a plain - huge - damage buff vs everything.
The reasons why I suggested 70 flat damage are ... 1. The radius of the attack is smaller compared to BW. 2. At 70 damage they one-shot Zerglings in the primary and secondary radius. That is basically where the number comes from ...
Why is there no need to buff the tank vs all the small and light units? It is a freaking TANK and should be able to scare away a horde of smaller units to the point that they can not just a-move into a line of tanks and win. The small infantry should be required to use tricks like dropping onto the tank or abducting them or blinding cloud or whatever else.
So your suggestion is: leaving 35+15 vs armored but adding extra dmg(+35 light?)? Can a unit have that complexed stat? Edit: Tell me if i'm wrong
You are wrong ... and I thought "70 damage" was clear enough. It is a flat 70 damage ... against everything ... because splash reduces it for the outer radius a lot.
Just look at the core radius of the Siege Tank attack, which is "0.4687 matrices" ... RADIUS. It isnt explained anywhere, but from the visuals I think it is safe to assume that "1 matric = length of a building block square" and that is TINY; if my assumption is correct the core area covers only 70% of one square ...
So is the increase in damage I propose really that huge when it affects only a rather tiny amount of space at its maximum potential?
"In siege mode, Siege Tanks do 35 (+15 against armored) splash damage. This damage has three different levels: units (whether hostile or friendly) within .4687 matrices of the target are dealt full damage, units between .4687 and .7812 matrices of the target receive 50% of full damage, and units between .7812 and 1.25 matrices from the target suffer just 25% of the full damage."
So...If seize tanks do 70 dmg... the 'tiny' space makes 70dmg (a little bit bigger than a zergling), b/w .4687 and .7812, 35dmg (about 5-6 zerglings) and b/w .7812 and 1.25, 17.5dmg for MANY zerglings? I hope terran won't mass tanks but I think eveyone will go for it!
EPT
). But there is no units that heals only half or quarter since starcraft I alpha. Hellbat is already illogical by being a FACTORY unit that can be both mech and bio and this is even more non sense. 
