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On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions
Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff
EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise...
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How about this: Nerf speedlings, nerf chargelots. Then nerf hellbats. This way, hellbat effectiveness in battle is relatively untouched while harvesters get indirect buff against hellbat drops.
/edit
Remember how blue-flame was nerfed because hellion-drops were too good? Then hellions became much less effective versus zealots and speedlings. Fixing one thing can break another.
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On July 03 2013 15:03 plogamer wrote:
How about this: Nerf speedlings, nerf chargelots. Then nerf hellbats. This way, hellbat effectiveness in battle is relatively untouched while harvesters get indirect buff against hellbat drops.
obviously you are trolling. Ohh i'm caught! help~~~
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On July 03 2013 14:41 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:40 ManicMarine wrote:On July 03 2013 13:28 EFermi wrote:On July 03 2013 12:57 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 03 2013 09:35 Qikz wrote:On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote:
Remove the Bio tag and i am happy I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard. It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise. You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.) On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote:
If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored! And my poor banelings will cry hard. If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT. And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop. Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. No they werent, you give wrong facts They were designed for lategame mass zealots
This is also true. It does not invalidate what I said.
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On July 03 2013 14:53 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions
Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees) I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise...
The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'.
This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft.
I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno...
-nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do
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On July 03 2013 15:11 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 14:53 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions
Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees) I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise... The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'. This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft. I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno... -nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do
The one problem which Blizzard is facing now is that they cannot make current units changed too much because of the amount of time passed from the release of hots. People are already used to it.I'm not saying that hellbats dont need change, but I think it should be slightly nerfed to help mech unitl Lov (i'm not sure which one is right. lov or Lotv?) comes out. too late to change mech now because there won't be any huge change/ new units, which is soooooo sad 
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On July 02 2013 21:53 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 20:32 Qikz wrote:On July 02 2013 19:36 ARNHOE wrote:On July 02 2013 19:24 xsnac wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats. can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ? Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones. I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying. Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable. And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
Yup , I play random on NA sometimes , if I'm T against P or T I just marine scv all in usually and win like 80% of the time , it's still rly fkin powerful , not much good vs any semi good zerg though.
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On July 03 2013 14:26 fezvez wrote:
I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
We discussed this at length on the previous page and you just ignore all of the counterarguments. Well, then they still hold. The costs incurred with researching blue flame, especially in TvP midgame, renders hellbats effectively useless against mass-zealots, with major ramifications in all three MUs.
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On July 03 2013 15:18 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 15:11 Ooshmagoosh wrote:On July 03 2013 14:53 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions
Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees) I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise... The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'. This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft. I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno... -nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do The one problem which Blizzard is facing now is that they cannot make current units changed too much because of the amount of time passed from the release of hots. People are already used to it.I'm not saying that hellbats dont need change, but I think it should be slightly nerfed to help mech unitl Lov (i'm not sure which one is right. lov or Lotv?) comes out. too late to change mech now because there won't be any huge change/ new units, which is soooooo sad
People have begged blizzard to not patch the game since day one and gave them a lot of shit for their balance politics in WoL.
HotS being left in this state is completely on the community.
And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
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On July 03 2013 16:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 15:18 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 03 2013 15:11 Ooshmagoosh wrote:On July 03 2013 14:53 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 03 2013 14:43 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions
Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees) I totally agree with the fact that transformation upgrade should become more viable or removed but I don't know how would it slows drop. Maybe you shoulve said both BF nerf and transformation buff EDIT: I know there are more stupid units (because they are either too good/bad/weird) but I really appreciate the fact that blizzard slowly recognises problems. the only problem is that they are TOO slow to recognise... The problem is that they don't have a design goal, other than reaching 50% winrates with all matchups. If something about the gameplay is utterly retarded, they don't mind as long as it doesn't break 'the balance'. This is the way they've been designing their games since after World of Warcraft. I hope they kill the mine + hellbat in LotV, but for now, they might as well lower the damage back to beta levels- 10 (+9 vs light)- and remove the bio tag / weird cargo patch. If they can't fix mech right, then I dunno... -nobody built beta hellbats because mech hadn't been fixed, and tempest + vipers gutted mech and still do The one problem which Blizzard is facing now is that they cannot make current units changed too much because of the amount of time passed from the release of hots. People are already used to it.I'm not saying that hellbats dont need change, but I think it should be slightly nerfed to help mech unitl Lov (i'm not sure which one is right. lov or Lotv?) comes out. too late to change mech now because there won't be any huge change/ new units, which is soooooo sad People have begged blizzard to not patch the game since day one and gave them a lot of shit for their balance politics in WoL. HotS being left in this state is completely on the community. And please don't start about Mech. It's dead at this point. Wanting Mech to work in TvP is like asking the game to be balanced around 1base Broodlord maxouts, because you feel like this should be viable.
Well at least it is still not as bad as bio in BW TvP I think. And that makes me don't understand why people really hell bent on making Mech totally viable in SC2.
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Hellbats are fine. Players like Bomber and Taeja have already shown that numerous openings can completely destroy hellbat drops. TvT is the only matchup where mech is viable, or do people like marines so much they want to see marines in every matchup?
It's funny how people are always complaining that marine marauder is OP, and how Terran can win using T1 units. Now that Terran has a non T1 melee unit, people are saying they prefer watching marines every game instead?
And then there are the 50% of people in this thread who don't even play Terran who are crying cos they like to A move win.
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I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less
- put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade.
- Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Choose one or all 
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On July 03 2013 17:07 Lock0n wrote:
Hellbats are fine. Players like Bomber and Taeja have already shown that numerous openings can completely destroy hellbat drops. TvT is the only matchup where mech is viable, or do people like marines so much they want to see marines in every matchup?
It's funny how people are always complaining that marine marauder is OP, and how Terran can win using T1 units. Now that Terran has a non T1 melee unit, people are saying they prefer watching marines every game instead?
And then there are the 50% of people in this thread who don't even play Terran who are crying cos they like to A move win.
Mech is not viable in TvZ?
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On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote:
I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less
- put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade.
- Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
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On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote:
I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less
- put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade.
- Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is:
1. siege tank
2. widow mine
3. hellion.
4. raven
Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots.
Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
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On July 03 2013 17:59 MrSourGit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote:
I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less
- put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade.
- Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while ....
I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird.
I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though.
And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
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On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote:I have some ideas. - make the heal rate 50% less - put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade. - Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode. Choose one or all
1) It doesn't help TvT
2) A more refined suggestion was discussed in the previous pages and ON THIS VERY PAGE, and shown to be inadequate
3) Same counterarguments as for (2).
Edit: Additionally, we need to stop with random suggestions: "It's simple, let's nerf the Batman". You need to actually argue WHY a nerf is needed (June balance stats DO NOT support this), AND what the actual effects. If you want to make a suggestion, have the common courtesy of thinking about if for more than 2 seconds.
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On July 03 2013 14:26 fezvez wrote:
I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
This is my final stand. (despite of my personal bias! Zerg UP! Terran OP! XD)
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On July 03 2013 18:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote:
I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less
- put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade.
- Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. The above changes will obsolete the hellbat in TvZ and TvP, returning marauders to the frontline. The only Terran unit for splash remaining is: 1. siege tank 2. widow mine 3. hellion. 4. raven Widow mines can be faked out with hallucinated units, meaning... widow mine lines are useless against death ball clashes as well as friendly fire. They have proven to actually help the mass chargelot remax opponent as widow mines will hit their own from targeting the zealots. Siege tanks aren't so hot since the last nerfs, don't get me started about lategame hellion run-bys.
It is bad and can u explain why? this does not have any relation to splash.
The problem in TvT is it is too easy/fast to drop in 7mins time (well this is true for all match ups) and defenses cannot be set up in time or it is not effiecient. Waste a bunker and marines in each mineral line? a turret? no problem just suicide the medivac, 200 minerals is nothing to a muling terran.
I can comment on your widow mine issue but it has nothing to do about the hellbat suggestions. you can still have them do splash damage vs protoss, vs voids by proper deployment in mass. I could put a vod link but I would leave that for you to look since it seems you dont know what you are talking about. And wtf? siege tank nerfs? late game hellion runbys WUT?
I you think you have some better ideas, try to post it. Your explanation about splash again has nothing to do with the ideas above, you should feel bad for that
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On July 03 2013 18:18 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 17:59 MrSourGit wrote:On July 03 2013 17:16 woreyour wrote:
I have some ideas.
- make the heal rate 50% less
- put the uber light damage in pre igniter upgrade.
- Need to upgrade transform from 1st to transform hellions to hellbat and cannot produce them out of factory in hellbat mode.
I would go for this , minor needs in effectiveness and timing for a while .... I agree with no2 (which is what blizzard wants) but 1 and 3 sounds weird. I actually want hellbat gets +1 armor (not sure light unit can have armor) or some health boost and make it pure mech, but I hardly think blizzard will remove bio tag ever. If they do, many won't QQ though. And require 2 upgrade? its gonna be like terran hydra! I rather remove the whole transformation upgrade that hellions comes with transformation when armory finish
Why would number 3 be weird? the problem is hellbat and drops. upgrade before drops can still be worth it but terran needs to invest more or make it just delayed not coming in 7:30 mins and killing all workers.
I also have another thing come up to mind, make hellbats armored, and remove healing option but this sounds drastic. Just makes sense since they took parts of themselves and turned arms into shields, made their HP total to 135, it is big and slow so should be armored (looks like a marauder/firebat).
No you dont need to have 2 upgrades to be implemented, as I said they can choose one of those, pre ignigter or transform. Each one of the options would make it more pleasant than the current state as it would delay the 7:30 drop. 1st option would make the early drop 3 shot workers, the later drop would be the same potency as the current state.
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EPT
