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On July 02 2013 21:59 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 21:55 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:51 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run. On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway, Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back! 150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply. The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt. Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
Protoss does not use gateway units in the late game? Weapon/armor upgrades or stuff like charge and blink doesn't improve the basic gateway units into something better? Try killing a warp in of like eight 3/3/3 chargelots at your expansion...
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On July 02 2013 22:10 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:05 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:59 RaFox17 wrote:On July 02 2013 21:55 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:51 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run. On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway, Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back! 150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply. The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt. Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3. -12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL. Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful?
Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight.
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On July 02 2013 21:55 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 21:51 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run. Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway, Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back! 150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply. The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Lategame hellbats are some of the best units to have because of how well they do against huge zealot warpins. You can't have too many ofc but they aren't intended to replace the marine. A lategame army is definitely better off with hellbata though.
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On July 02 2013 22:12 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:10 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 22:05 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:59 RaFox17 wrote:On July 02 2013 21:55 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:51 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run. On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway, Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back! 150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply. The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt. Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3. -12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL. Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful? Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight.
Man. I thought you were going to say "okay. if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make muta regen&speed to Wol stat and make an upgrade that costs 150 mineral +150 gas, 110," Why would you even make spire more expensive? I didn't say make armory +150 gas.
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Hellbats are not what I would want in lategame TvP. They are slow and weak against colossus. Ghost and vikings are sick. The damage output you lack when they can get close to your army is easily negated by blanket emps and nullifying their aoe. Also ghosts have huge dps vs zealots amd can cloak
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On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically.
I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away?
Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100.
Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50.
tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time.
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On July 02 2013 22:33 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically. I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away? Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100. Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50. tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time.
+10^10. Hellion is an unhappy twin of Hellbat! Why don't we just remove the transformation servos upgrade since hellbat will be nerfed? I really want to see some tactics that involves hellion/hellbat transformation! And I think the transformation time is also a bit too slow. Maybe 2~3 blizzard seconds?
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On July 02 2013 22:38 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:33 Markwerf wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically. I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away? Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100. Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50. tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time. +10^10. Hellion is an unhappy twin of Hellbat! Why don't we just remove the transformation servos upgrade since hellbat will be nerfed? I really want to see some tactics that involves hellion/hellbat transformation! And I think the transformation time is also a bit too slow. Maybe 2~3 blizzard seconds?
Making a separate bf upgrade for hellbat and putting it in armory would be the best way to nerf hellbat damage but still keep reactored factory hellbats as an option (and with that, drops)
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On July 02 2013 22:12 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:10 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 22:05 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:59 RaFox17 wrote:On July 02 2013 21:55 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:51 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run. On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway, Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back! 150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply. The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt. Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3. -12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL. Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful? Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight.
Ever tried hydras?
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On July 02 2013 23:29 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:38 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 22:33 Markwerf wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. I agree this is the most elegant way. Hellbats 2 shotting marines/scv's so early is a bit detrimental for TvT. Nerfing hellbat drops too much in other matchups is overkill though, they are fine as it is there basically. I hate to see mech getting another nerf though just because a small part of mech is broken, we've seen this before with blueflame hellions. In return I believe blueflame hellions and/or transformation servos can get a serious buff, they are practically not used now especially transformation servos because it's just not worth the trouble. Why bother with a techlab on your factory for a measly transformation you rarely use and costs quite a bit when you can just get hellbats right away? Infernal pre-igniter is a very rare surprise tactic in TvZ and maybe a ForGG tactic in TvT. I think it was once nerfed from +10 to +5 because it was too good against drones but since then there has been the queen patch, improved walling, mothership core, better muta's etc. so I don't think restoring infernal pre-igniter to some of it's former glory would be too bad. For example make it give +8 instead of +5 on both hellions and hellbats so with the upgrade hellbats are exactly the same as now and hellions are slightly better. This would give interesting decisions in TvT too where sometimes hellion form would actually be better in fights perhaps. Alternatively it can just be dropped to 100/100. Transformation servos can seriously get a huge buff. The tech was reintroduced late in the beta as a quick fix to hellbat drops/timings because it was way too strong to make hellions and medivacs, get an armory a bit later and suddenly have a hellbat army. With hellbats needing infernal pre-igniter to be good the biggest reason for transformation servos would be gone, i still think it should remain forcing T to have a techlab on the factory to get it at least but the cost can seriously be reduced, perhaps even 50/50. tl;dr, just do David Kim';s suggestion rolling in some of the damge with BFH but do make sure to give mech some slight buffs in return to keep mech at least a little viable. It would be silly to screw over an underpowered strategy even more which is a delight to see from time to time. +10^10. Hellion is an unhappy twin of Hellbat! Why don't we just remove the transformation servos upgrade since hellbat will be nerfed? I really want to see some tactics that involves hellion/hellbat transformation! And I think the transformation time is also a bit too slow. Maybe 2~3 blizzard seconds? Making a separate bf upgrade for hellbat and putting it in armory would be the best way to nerf hellbat damage but still keep reactored factory hellbats as an option (and with that, drops)
But armory is only for mech ground/air upgrade though. and why would you want to have it separately? That would make hellion and transformation even more worthless because terran have to research extra 1 more. (Edit: to use both of them effectively)
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On July 02 2013 23:33 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 22:12 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 22:10 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 22:05 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:59 RaFox17 wrote:On July 02 2013 21:55 Snowbear wrote:On July 02 2013 21:51 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run. On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway, Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back! 150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply. The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt. Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3. -12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL. Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful? Okay, if 150 gas isn't so big, let's make the spire +150 gas, what do you think? Still not huge? The problem is you need a techlab, so no reactor, so no double hellbats. Then you need 150 gas, so that's 150 gas not in medivacs, upgrades, reactors, techlabs, etc. That's just a sick nerf. No one will research it in tvp tvz, because if you play terran then you know that there is just 0 room for another 150 gas. It's already super tight. Ever tried hydras?
You made my day.
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My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac.
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On July 02 2013 21:46 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade. That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light. A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7. But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game. BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall. Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
150/150 isn't the whole story, the fact that you either need a secondary factory or have to sacrifice a ton of production time is arguably an even bigger deal.
It's like when people wonder why terrans won't make a single raven to clear creep against zerg? It's because switching addons is a big hassle and you lose valuable production time that could be spent on making the actual units you urgently need, medivacs and vikings. The 150/150 cost for blueflame is just icing on the cake that ensures the unit no longer has a place in builds that don't already incorporate factories with tech labs.
Also hellbats as bio support peak in the early-midgame, mostly because you won't be getting mech upgrades and eventually your hellbats will be 0-0 vs 3-3. This makes all sorts of lategame hellbat additions with double factories kinda moot.
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On July 02 2013 23:50 Cloak wrote:
My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac.
guess we will have to make all terran units healable by medivac and remove repair 8P,
medivacs are certainly one of the best units in the game.
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On July 02 2013 15:05 MrSourGit wrote:Are people here arguing hellbat isn't insanely overpowered ? You guys should be lawyers 
it isn't
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this hellbat nerf is pretty bad but necessary. Hellbat drop is just too strong and combine that with speed medivac they are just too powerful. The sad thing is that with this nerf, we probably going to start looking more and more like WoL again :/
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On June 11 2013 10:54 Kfish wrote:
Looking forward to changes. I hope they do something since hellbats are the strongest mineral dump in in the game, can be reactored out, healed and come out pretty fast.
healed AND repaired ^^
but yeah, its good they're doing something about this.
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On July 03 2013 02:54 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 23:50 Cloak wrote:
My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac. guess we will have to make all terran units healable by medivac and remove repair 8P, medivacs are certainly one of the best units in the game.
Medivacs are the worst unit design wise. Its just a gimmick unit which is good at everything. One of crucial part of RTS game is to make decisions when and which unit I should make. Medivac is just good at any time. Compare it to warp prism. How protoss should think it through.
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On July 02 2013 23:50 Cloak wrote:
My gut feeling has always been the Medivacs being the problem. Why do Terrans go Bio every game? Why is Bio considered the mobile army? Why are Hellbats just an extension of Bio as opposed to a gateway drug to Mech? The Medivac links them all together. You just can't compete with something that's necessary for the deathball and also necessary for harass. The rest of Mech falters because of their lack of synergy with the Medivac.
I have this feeling from the moment I learnt about medivac. At first I thought it was marines. Then it turns out it was medivacs
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EPT
