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On July 02 2013 14:55 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On July 02 2013 12:46 Picklebread wrote:On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:On July 01 2013 05:38 Greenei wrote:On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote:
Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand? Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat. Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level? domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran. I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT' I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops? I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem. A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ... "Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example. 2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy. As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps. The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them. On July 02 2013 13:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:On July 01 2013 05:38 Greenei wrote:On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote:
Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand? Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat. Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level? domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran. I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT' I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops? I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem. A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ... "Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example. Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself. Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS! Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN! You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine. It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!! David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it". The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip. Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game. Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost. Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing. So much QQ. You keep pulling fictional scenarios that make TWO hellbats in a medivac sound like it's the most broken sh*t since K.amulet prism HT warp ins. Keep it real, Rab, keep it real. Two turrets and a Viking (or widow mine) costs less than a medivac and two hellbats and the armory at the 8 min mark. Placing a turret in your mineral line is sub-optimal, as I've said before, you want the turret to MAXIMISE its firing window, that means the two inital turrets ideally do not even let the medivac drop past the ledge, thus cutting off the back section of the base. Add a w.mine between the two turrets and you've created a death trap. Turrets are range 12 vision, assuming you are well prepared for the drop (with saved camera positions), there is no reason your army would not be enroute to intercept the drop even he boosted past the turret, good splits will ensure minimal damage while focusing on the damaged medivac. The dropping player either has to waste time skirting the edge of the bases wasting precious APM finding a gap in the back side of the base, drop second base mineral line closest to your army or takes the bait and flies into the "gap" between the turrets to slam into the WMine. I am quite sure this is flying past your head. Face it strategy in a strategy game is not your strong point.
You're saying one should just build 2-3 Turrets one the side of your base (+ you require ebay for that) + rush up to starport and get a viking out just for hopefully not letting a medivac slip past. Defending hellbat drops easily with that is very likely yes, but now consider what's unthinkable of! He does NOT hellbat drop. Gratz on being awfully far behind without even letting something happen. You just won against yourself, sure the game is not over, but you're pretty far behind. Oh you say you can scan and scout it and then just not respond like that? Ye good luck, even if the scan DOES find every information needed etc. you either have to add the ~250 minerals for the scan/mule to the defense or just for (almost) nothing and you're behind again when you're both playing standard. And talking of "precious APM" is really, really ridiculous.
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On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
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On July 02 2013 19:24 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats. can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because HE thinks they are not broken
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I hope he fixes them soon. TvT is pretty ridiculous nowadays IMO.
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On July 02 2013 19:24 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats. can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
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All right Blizzard, time to strike the nerf hammer, TvT is now the dullest matchup to play/watch. Please do something.
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nerf hellbats please blizzard. its been almost a month since this announcement by d.kim
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On July 02 2013 18:57 GeOnoSis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:55 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 02 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On July 02 2013 12:46 Picklebread wrote:On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:On July 01 2013 05:38 Greenei wrote:
[quote]
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat. Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level? domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran. I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT' I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops? I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem. A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ... "Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example. 2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy. As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps. The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them. On July 02 2013 13:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:On July 01 2013 05:38 Greenei wrote:
[quote]
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat. Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level? domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran. I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT' I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops? I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem. A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ... "Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example. Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself. Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS! Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN! You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine. It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!! David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it". The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip. Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game. Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost. Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing. So much QQ. You keep pulling fictional scenarios that make TWO hellbats in a medivac sound like it's the most broken sh*t since K.amulet prism HT warp ins. Keep it real, Rab, keep it real. Two turrets and a Viking (or widow mine) costs less than a medivac and two hellbats and the armory at the 8 min mark. Placing a turret in your mineral line is sub-optimal, as I've said before, you want the turret to MAXIMISE its firing window, that means the two inital turrets ideally do not even let the medivac drop past the ledge, thus cutting off the back section of the base. Add a w.mine between the two turrets and you've created a death trap. Turrets are range 12 vision, assuming you are well prepared for the drop (with saved camera positions), there is no reason your army would not be enroute to intercept the drop even he boosted past the turret, good splits will ensure minimal damage while focusing on the damaged medivac. The dropping player either has to waste time skirting the edge of the bases wasting precious APM finding a gap in the back side of the base, drop second base mineral line closest to your army or takes the bait and flies into the "gap" between the turrets to slam into the WMine. I am quite sure this is flying past your head. Face it strategy in a strategy game is not your strong point. You're saying one should just build 2-3 Turrets one the side of your base (+ you require ebay for that) + rush up to starport and get a viking out just for hopefully not letting a medivac slip past. Defending hellbat drops easily with that is very likely yes, but now consider what's unthinkable of! He does NOT hellbat drop. Gratz on being awfully far behind without even letting something happen. You just won against yourself, sure the game is not over, but you're pretty far behind. Oh you say you can scan and scout it and then just not respond like that? Ye good luck, even if the scan DOES find every information needed etc. you either have to add the ~250 minerals for the scan/mule to the defense or just for (almost) nothing and you're behind again when you're both playing standard. And talking of "precious APM" is really, really ridiculous.
While I do agree hellbats might have some issues, perhaps just a unit that is too strong all-around, I dont agree that every form of harassment should be able to be stopped in an easy way. What are people expecting here? They can just leave a handful of units at a base and all of the sudden ALL harassment is totally shut down? Wow, that'd make for some pretty boring games too.
Look at it this way : turrets vs mutas are considered standard. If a race, to adapt to a certain strategy, has to do a few things that to you seem excessive, doesnt that indicate that you have been thinking inside of a little box for too long? I dont like this idea of 'everything has to be able to be solved with obvious and easy solutions' in an RTS.
To bring up your example of a TvT filled with hellbats : if 2 turrets + widow mine becomes standard, then that ALSO counts for the guy dropping the hellbats. Dropping hellbats does not mean you cant get hellbat dropped yourself, so in the end, both forms of defence would even themselves out. Building turrets when your opponent has to do the same thing doesnt put you behind. You can CHOOSE to play risky and not put them up, but then you'll get punished for that.
And let's assume you went for a more economy-oriented build : what makes you believe you shouldnt put some rescources towards defence while your opponent, who did not go for an economy-oriented build, should automatically be put behind and denied any kind of chance to harass your economy while you are playing an unsafe style? Dedicate a few rescources towards defence, and you'll still be even since, again, it evens out because you went for more economy early on.
What I'd like to see is not an easy fix to all harass, but something that evens the playing field between hellbats and other terran harassment units. Right now, hellbats are becoming so strong there is almost no reason NOT to go hellbat. But I still like the fact that people now have to actually defend drops and anticipate harassment. In my eyes, leaving some units behind here and there, of putting some of your rescources into defensive buildings takes away from that 'deathball' everyone hates so much. Here I was believing people would endorse stronger forms harassment and 'battles all over the place'.
I believe having a strong harassment unit in the game is great, but I also believe there should be more risk involved, and I think that making defense in order to anticipate this kind of harassment is sign of a safe and smart player, and shouldnt be seen as some kind of excessive measure. I dont think there is anything wrong with it becoming standard. The game evolves all the time, and who are you to say that the game evolving in a game that contains lots of preemptive forms of defence is bad?
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Cargo 8 for hellbats. Such an EASY solution, but no, that's too complicated it seems. I mean, it would nerf drops, and it wouldn't let the hellbat disapear. Blizzard, please...
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On July 02 2013 19:50 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 19:48 Snowbear wrote:
Cargo 8 for hellbats. Such an EASY solution, but no, that's too complicated it seems. I mean, it would nerf drops, and it wouldn't let the hellbat disapear. Blizzard, please... that's actually ridiculous, blizzard won't do that
And why not? Because it's not realistic??? Like sc2 is such a realistic game... It would be a perfect change. Or change the heal..
But I know what Blizzard will do: they will change the damage and require blueflame upgrade. Let me tell you: we will see hellbats in tvt, but never ever again in tvp and tvz. There is just no room for 150/150 in the early game. Terran is already gas starved the first 10 minutes (reactors, techlabs, stim, shields, shells, factory, starport, medivac, upgrades, armory, etc).
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I mean, the actual best solution is just removing them from the game and making tanks decent, but that won't happen, so I guess I'm fine with the hellbat.
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hellbats should come only from hellions after researching the upgrade, they should not come directly from factory
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On July 02 2013 19:36 ARNHOE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 19:24 xsnac wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats. can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ? Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
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On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
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I dont play terran, so my opinion is probably somewhat jaded, but from what i've seen, protoss and zerg tend to defend hellbat drops well because they play inherently defensively in that phase of the game (because of their prominence in the current metagame).
Terrans, especially in TvT invest a lot of early game resources into hellbat drops, and when both players do this, there is very little invested defensively.
Maybe i'm just being the devils advocate, but I dont think hellbat drops are any more broken in TvT than other matchups, terrans instead of investing money to defend against them, invest resources to win games with them.
I still feel that whether the metagame develops in a way they do consistent damage or not is still not an appropriate litmus test for a unit being too strong. The fact that every terran opens almost exclusively with hellbat drops in all matchups is more worrying for build diversity, and if the metagame doesnt make shifts away from it, then perhaps thats when re-tuning the unit will become necessary imo.
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On July 02 2013 20:32 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 19:36 ARNHOE wrote:On July 02 2013 19:24 xsnac wrote:On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote:
there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats. can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ? Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones. I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Wasn't it nerfed by 15? They started out like in BW having 60hp, but it was deemed way overpowered.
Imagine having 60hp SCVs for your marine/scv all-ins.
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EPT
