David Kim comments on Hellbat drops - Page 35

On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:


Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?

On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote:


Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?

On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:


domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.

On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:


domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.

On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:


I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'

I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?

I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.

On June 30 2013 22:06 Reborn8u wrote:
Also, I don't see how anyone can call a terran greedy for building a 3rd cc in base, when his zerg opponent is already droning a 3rd, or a protoss on 2 bases is already producing tier 3 tech (colossus or storm), yet we hear this called "greedy" all the time.

On July 01 2013 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:


Wait what? Safely teching up to what Protoss needs in order to secure a third without dying horribly is playing greedy? You can't get a third before then without taking a huge risk.

If you don't have that splash you die horribly to just about anything if they decide to punish it...

On July 01 2013 12:19 EFermi wrote:


Well 7 out of 8 terrans made it into the OSL ro16, and it took the best protoss in the world to ensure it's not 8 out of 8.

On July 02 2013 03:14 QQKachoo wrote:
Hellbat drops are making meta pretty stale atm. I mean it isn't near as stale as it was when it was zerg turtling to blord infestor but it is pretty boring to go "well the terran is going to hellbat drop". The opening is too common now. Also I find it really dumb when you see a Terran behind and they just keep hellbat dropping and then one drop is super successful and the terran is back in the game.

On July 02 2013 03:22 Jazzman88 wrote:


Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.

I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.

On July 02 2013 03:32 QQKachoo wrote:


I think they need to have the bio tag removed. Maybe the damage changed to have full damage with blue flame upgrade but I am not sure about that. But overall I think the bio tag needs to be removed.

On July 02 2013 03:22 Jazzman88 wrote:


Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.

I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.

On July 02 2013 03:22 Jazzman88 wrote:


Let's be fair, however - it's also true that a Zerg or Protoss player can be behind and just keep attempting Baneling/Muta plays (burrowed Baneling mines, Mutalisk run-bys into expansion) or Templar storms (zoning with Psionic Storm), and all it takes is one good hit from that to put them right back in it (see every comeback PvT game ever, Symbol v Bomber for Baneling mines, etc.). Any time you have a high-damage unit in a good place, there's a potential for a face-wrecking amount of disruption to your opponent that can give you an edge - that's why Colossi are great defensive AND offensive tools in PvT, that's why Storm is super hard to play against, and that's why the new HotS Mutalisks are incredibly annoying to try and move out against.

I think we've probably gotten a bit caught up in bandwagon effects with Hellbats. Everyone and their mother started to get Hellbat dropped, and it wasn't a good feeling to lose to it, so now there's no verbal defense to any proposition that doesn't involved heavily nerfing them. For the record, I think there could be tweaks to them, but I don't believe they're anywhere near as overpowered as the vast majority of casual players seem to think they are.

On July 02 2013 03:50 Mauzel wrote:


Bad comparisons.

1) Baneling mines may have that instant burst but they don't have the mobility / durability of hellbats. Furthermore, Terrans usually scan typical baneling mine spots even if they aren't looking for baneling mines because Terrans like to scan ahead of their army to find zerg army => they will usually find baneling mines.

2) "Mutalisk runbys" are incredibly risky against Terran (mines) and are easily countered vs Protoss who go phoenix.

3) Mutalisks, baneling mines, and high templar all require a lot of tech and come very late in the game. Hellbats drops can be a very safe opening build.

4) Baneling mines and high templar typically only deal damage to the army. Losing half your army in the mid game is not as devastating as losing 10 workers in the early game.




Okay but pro terran players believe they are imbalanced.

On July 02 2013 05:58 Gaizokubanou wrote:


About 2), 3) and 4)...

2) It's not that risky vs terran. You can visually see the burrowed mine. If mines didn't leave visual cues then it would be incredibly risky but right now if you have good vision, you can keep your mutalisk harass force alive.

3) Mutalisks are mid game unit, they typically come in mid game. Same for templar tech outside of TvP because potential mine drop forces protoss to either go robo or stargate for detection, which delays templar tech.

4) Can you show us a replay where the defending player made resonable precautions vs hellbat drop and still lost 10 workers in the early game? It delays mining and can nab 2 ~ 4 workers but 10 workers killed in the early game sounds like the defender didn't really bother defending.

Edit: But to be fair the original comparison to baneling mines and storm is indeed bit off because whatever the reasons are, those two haven't seen much use in killing the economy. Maybe with warp prism speed buff, storm drop with zealot warp in harass may become a thing now but they aren't part of the meta yet so the comparison is indeed bit off.

On July 02 2013 03:32 QQKachoo wrote:


I think they need to have the bio tag removed. Maybe the damage changed to have full damage with blue flame upgrade but I am not sure about that. But overall I think the bio tag needs to be removed.

On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:


A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min.
Srsly guise, Srsly