On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Hellbats are far worse because SC2 has a much higher economy and production output compared to BW. Thus you can mass produce them FAR EASIER than you can Vultures (Reactors did not exist in BW). Hellbats are far worse because of the "unit delivery system" called the Medivac with its speed boost which makes the whole thing pretty safe to pull off.
Hellbat drops are not "totally IMBA" just "too efficient for the cost / risk involved". Just watch the Moonglade vs Sound games from MLG day 2 ... Zerg defends 3-4 DOUBLE MEDIVAC drops perfectly without losing much and yet the 5th drop starts killing stuff eventually and the four completely failed (including two dead Medivacs every time) did not put the Terran back one bit.
The thing about Hellbats which you totally ignore is that they alone can not win the game and the rest of the Terran army is rather poor against whatever Zerg and Protoss can pull off. Hellbat drops are like Banelings ... you HAVE TO defend perfectly against them and the full load of microing is put on the defender. Terrible way to design a strategy game, because the attacker should be required to micro and then rewarded for being better than the defender, but instead Blizzard designed a game where the attacker has to use almost no micro while the defender has only half a second to react or lose a big chunk.
So in the spirit of your last line ... stop lying to yourself ...
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
But the good thing is that the units you always make can deal with everything zerg has. If zerg has the wrong composition he just dies. That is the good thing about being unable to react or not having to react would be the right way to put it. (i know you need a tanks against roach all-in, but thats basically the only exception)
On July 01 2013 03:14 Rabiator wrote: Hellbat drops are like Banelings ... you HAVE TO defend perfectly against them and the full load of microing is put on the defender. Terrible way to design a strategy game, because the attacker should be required to micro and then rewarded for being better than the defender, but instead Blizzard designed a game where the attacker has to use almost no micro while the defender has only half a second to react or lose a big chunk.
Except that's exactly what terran needed. We wouldn't see any new foreign terrans if it wasn't for units like widow mine or hellbat.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Vultures can in no way be compared to hellbats. They were flimsy, barely tickled large units and did not do splash damage.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Because winning a macro game against terran has become incredibly hard due to the cost effectiveness of bio-mine. So zergs have to turn into early roach play before the terran can get all his production up.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Vultures can in no way be compared to hellbats. They were flimsy, barely tickled large units and did not do splash damage.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Because winning a macro game against terran has become incredibly hard due to the cost effectiveness of bio-mine. So zergs have to turn into early roach play before the terran can get all his production up.
I don't think that has anything to do with it. Roach aggression is just incredibly strong since Terrans play super greedy to try and keep up with Zerg economy. No reason not to do it when the only likely defence is a handful of Marines and a couple of Marauders.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Hellbat couldn't be imba in TvT because it's TvT -_-. It just makes the MU a little stale.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because Zerg/Protoss have much better tools to handle them?
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
You dont see any T untouchable to roach/bane allin because T is super greedy and cutting every corner possible. Innovation looked solid recently when he started to incorporate a siege tank into his early play.
On July 01 2013 01:26 SiroKO wrote: Hellbats are no way better than vultures with mines in Sc:BW. Just because something is strong and cost-efficient in most situations doesn't make it imbalance. If Terrans as a whole were dominating with this units, then sure the nerf would be needed, but that's not the case. If Hellbat drops were impossible to deal with, and that strong, Terrans as a whole would be dominating HoTS, we would have TvT finals in half of the tournaments, like during the Zerg era in WOL, that's simply not the case. No more lies, no more hypocrisy, no more sophisms, no stupid nerfs, thanks.
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
You dont see any T untouchable to roach/bane allin because T is super greedy and cutting every corner possible. Innovation looked solid recently when he started to incorporate a siege tank into his early play.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
common misconception. just because terran doesn't win everything doesn't mean hellbats are not imba. going by that logic, warp-in-Storms, were balanced in the first gsl seasons because protoss didn't win shit back then...
Have you noticed that whenever a Terran is down 0-1 in a set after trying to compete with a Zerg in a standard game, he pulls out the hellbat drops?
Have you noticed that whenever a Zerg is down 0-X in a set after trying to compete with a Terran in a standard game, he pulls out the roach/bane busts?
Well, that works too. Not that I disagree with it, just cause and effect are a bit different.
And also success rates. And the whole entertainment factor.
And you being shot in the leg.
Legs of steel, baby. A lot of Zergs roach bane allin as a response to 3CC because it is very, very difficult to compete in a macro game if Terran opens that way. Hellbat drop isn't a response to anything...it's just an abuse of a highly damaging unit composition with a large success rate even if scouted. Not to mention that it is in no means all-in, - and that it does considerable damage even if it is scouted in the form of pulling all your drones, and overcommitting to defense early in the game. And that T can do this off the back of a 3rd CC (if he wants to be safe he can do it with 2 and still be ahead).
Cause and effect are a bit different.
You're like.. implying terrans have the same means of reacting to things that zerg do. We don't. You choose an opener based on what you think you're opponent will do and what gives the best followthroughs/% to that. You don't react, because you can't react.
It's not an advantage, no matter how much you try to spin it.
Don't be ridiculous Terran have plenty of means of reacting to what other players do and the best ones will do so. It's just that you can get so far without doing so, so a lot of players are lazy. How do you think T players hold roach/bane allins? Reacting...or getting lucky.
You don't react because you choose not to react. You have all the tools needed to do so.
you know why even the best terrans like innovation and flash regularly lose to roach/bane allins? Because the time terran needs to react is very high, so if you want to react to something, you have to scout it way before it hits you. Ofc it's possible. but depending on your build, seeing roaches leaving the zerg natural may be way too late for excample. There is no terran in the world right now, that looks untouchable to allin play and that has a reason.
You dont see any T untouchable to roach/bane allin because T is super greedy and cutting every corner possible. Innovation looked solid recently when he started to incorporate a siege tank into his early play.
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
On July 01 2013 05:32 Polygamy wrote: Why is it that so many Terran think that the Hellbat is only imb in tvt but not the other match ups? I really don't understand?
Because it's true? We don't see Terran domination at the highest levels and we also don't see them use Hellbats nearly every game like in TvT. It's just one viable strat, not the only viable strat.
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
Considering Innovation is arguably the best Starcraft 2 player in the world and Flash is the best player to ever play an RTS (slowly increasing his already high SC2 level) I wouldn't really say that's surprising. I don't think it'd matter what race they played, with the amount they practice they'd still be the best.
Also they're not unstoppable. Soulkey beat Innovation in the WCS Korea Season 1 finals don't forget.
EPT
