Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
2 turrets a few marines deter drops VERY well. a dropship will die in 2.5 seconds to 2 turrets and if he afterburners into your mineral line then you run away all of your workers, have maybe a bunker with marines / marauder in it or have a few units in place and shut it down. Easy. If there are 2 drop ships some units can take care of it with the turret help easy.
As I said above ... there are ways to "counter" turrets by giving them an alternative target. You are also ignoring the fact that you wont have 2 turrets in range because the bases are pretty huge on some maps.
The way I would do it is to use the leading Medivac to boost right on top of the Turret and then drop the Hellbats there. If the Medivac dies doesnt matter, the turret will die too. At the same time the second Mefivac can run past and unload at the workers (out of turret range). Sure that wont work everywhere, but the super efficiency of the Hellbat still requires you to pull your workers quickly or lose a whole bunch of them. Hellbats are also good enough at killing turrets and then the second wave of double drop comes before you have rebuilt them.
On July 02 2013 13:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 02 2013 12:25 Rabiator wrote:
On July 01 2013 22:11 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
On July 01 2013 12:21 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 01 2013 08:53 TeeTS wrote:
On July 01 2013 06:39 EFermi wrote: [quote]
Flash and Innovation looking unstoppable isn't domination at the highest level?
domination would mean that a lot of terrans finish very high in every tournament. That there are some exceptional players for the race doesn't make a domination. That what we had back in the 2nd half of 2011 can be called domination of terran.
I think the problem caused by hellbat drop is not with the overall winrate, but 'domination by hellbat drops esp TvT'
I mean in many matchups, everyone does hellbat drops... of course the other ppl try to manage the damage and catch up eventually. How many times did you not see hellbat drops?
I. E. Hellbat drops everywhere (because of extreme cost-effectiveness). That is the problem.
A Terran mining off two fully saturated bases has no excuse to not have decent turret cover past 15 min. Srsly guise, Srsly
The problem with that is that you have to make a coinflip ...
"Do I build three turrets for each of my bases to *maybe* prevent Medivacs getting into my base OR do I get 12 more Marines or a few more Barracks or a few Hellbats of my own for the resources?"
The thing about turrets is that they are no guarantee against Hellbat drops, because some players just come at you with two Medivacs full of Hellbats and if you arent prepared to deal with them on the ground - due to the resources NOT spent on units - you will lose. You might also be behind because you spent those resources NOT on units and NOT on increasing your production capabilities. The problem remains the same because Hellbats are still too efficient at killing clumped up units like workers because even turrets dont really deter determined drops. People might actually build a Viking to send in first and get shot down to let the Medivacs reach the mineral line for example.
Coin flip? You are making excuses for yourself.
Aside from tech switches/bluff, there is no such thing as impossible, Terran have scouting with scan AT NO RISK TO UNITS!
Of course TvT is a coin flip when you leave ENTIRE BASES' AIRSPACE OPEN!
You are supposed to study your maps and know which side of a spawning point can be most effectively protected with Turret cover, and STRATEGICALLY place your turrets to maximise airspace protection to cost ratio not whine whine whine.
It's like complaining REAVERS/Spider mine drops/etc ARE TOO GOOD!!
David Kim needs to come out into the open when the hellbat drop question comes up, wear shades and say, "Deal with it".
The problem with a mirror matchup is that any "wasted" resource will put you behind. If the opponent knows you have built turrets he will know you have less army and come in at the front with a bigger army than you have. That is a coinflip.
Additionally you seem to be under the delusion that there is endless energy on your Orbitals and using a scan to look at one spot of the opponents base - which doesnt really guarantee you to reveal his game plan ... you only get a chance of hitting the right spot - will put you behind at the critical time when both sides are building up their production and army. In addition you also want to build lots of turrets ... so what is your army made up of then? Your opponent will have the bigger army and/or bigger production because of this and it is only when he suicides a lot of stuff into your turrets that you can "get even", but even that might not be possible. Scans LATER ON in TvT are a necessary and used thing, but not in the growth phase of the game.
Blizzard simply made Hellbats too good at killing clumped up units AND they negated the "weakness" of the unit by introducing the Medivac speed boost.
Reavers are a gamble and Spider Mines are something you need to get used to clearing.
So much QQ.
You keep pulling fictional scenarios that make TWO hellbats in a medivac sound like it's the most broken sh*t since K.amulet prism HT warp ins. Keep it real, Rab, keep it real.
Two turrets and a Viking (or widow mine) costs less than a medivac and two hellbats and the armory at the 8 min mark.
Placing a turret in your mineral line is sub-optimal, as I've said before, you want the turret to MAXIMISE its firing window, that means the two inital turrets ideally do not even let the medivac drop past the ledge, thus cutting off the back section of the base. Add a w.mine between the two turrets and you've created a death trap. Turrets are range 12 vision, assuming you are well prepared for the drop (with saved camera positions), there is no reason your army would not be enroute to intercept the drop even he boosted past the turret, good splits will ensure minimal damage while focusing on the damaged medivac.
The dropping player either has to waste time skirting the edge of the bases wasting precious APM finding a gap in the back side of the base, drop second base mineral line closest to your army or takes the bait and flies into the "gap" between the turrets to slam into the WMine.
I am quite sure this is flying past your head.
Face it strategy in a strategy game is not your strong point.
You're saying one should just build 2-3 Turrets one the side of your base (+ you require ebay for that) + rush up to starport and get a viking out just for hopefully not letting a medivac slip past. Defending hellbat drops easily with that is very likely yes, but now consider what's unthinkable of! He does NOT hellbat drop. Gratz on being awfully far behind without even letting something happen. You just won against yourself, sure the game is not over, but you're pretty far behind. Oh you say you can scan and scout it and then just not respond like that? Ye good luck, even if the scan DOES find every information needed etc. you either have to add the ~250 minerals for the scan/mule to the defense or just for (almost) nothing and you're behind again when you're both playing standard. And talking of "precious APM" is really, really ridiculous.
While I do agree hellbats might have some issues, perhaps just a unit that is too strong all-around, I dont agree that every form of harassment should be able to be stopped in an easy way. What are people expecting here? They can just leave a handful of units at a base and all of the sudden ALL harassment is totally shut down? Wow, that'd make for some pretty boring games too.
Look at it this way : turrets vs mutas are considered standard. If a race, to adapt to a certain strategy, has to do a few things that to you seem excessive, doesnt that indicate that you have been thinking inside of a little box for too long? I dont like this idea of 'everything has to be able to be solved with obvious and easy solutions' in an RTS.
To bring up your example of a TvT filled with hellbats : if 2 turrets + widow mine becomes standard, then that ALSO counts for the guy dropping the hellbats. Dropping hellbats does not mean you cant get hellbat dropped yourself, so in the end, both forms of defence would even themselves out. Building turrets when your opponent has to do the same thing doesnt put you behind. You can CHOOSE to play risky and not put them up, but then you'll get punished for that. And let's assume you went for a more economy-oriented build : what makes you believe you shouldnt put some rescources towards defence while your opponent, who did not go for an economy-oriented build, should automatically be put behind and denied any kind of chance to harass your economy while you are playing an unsafe style? Dedicate a few rescources towards defence, and you'll still be even since, again, it evens out because you went for more economy early on.
What I'd like to see is not an easy fix to all harass, but something that evens the playing field between hellbats and other terran harassment units. Right now, hellbats are becoming so strong there is almost no reason NOT to go hellbat. But I still like the fact that people now have to actually defend drops and anticipate harassment. In my eyes, leaving some units behind here and there, of putting some of your rescources into defensive buildings takes away from that 'deathball' everyone hates so much. Here I was believing people would endorse stronger forms harassment and 'battles all over the place'.
I believe having a strong harassment unit in the game is great, but I also believe there should be more risk involved, and I think that making defense in order to anticipate this kind of harassment is sign of a safe and smart player, and shouldnt be seen as some kind of excessive measure. I dont think there is anything wrong with it becoming standard. The game evolves all the time, and who are you to say that the game evolving in a game that contains lots of preemptive forms of defence is bad?
You understood my post. Love you long time.
Hellbat drops make good turret and viking/w.mine placement compulsory for a turtler.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because terrans got bad habit not using workers to mine and just attack with them early on with marines. Go back and watch first season in WoL.
Unit is full of it in TvT. so annoying to use compared to the marines but it seriously shreds marines so you have to get hellbats Looking at WCS atm protoss(First) clearly dont have issues with it :o?
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
I like the idea of an upgrade for the hellcats. When you think about the damage they can inflict it doesn´t seem to be in line with the commitment they require. Also it´s not like hellbats are a huge tech commitment that makes it impossible to easily switch tech paths.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable.
And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable.
And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
Steppes of War was a different world
Why don't they just nerf hellbats damage, buff their attack speed and leave them with the same dps. Then they 3 shot workers/marines and are worse in worker drops and worse in tvt (the 2 things highlighted as problems). They would be equally strong when mixed into armies, equally strong vs zlots and it wouldn't significantly nerf mech.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellabats.
can you explain why would protoss / zerg workers should be 2 shoted while the terran ones should be 3 shoted ?
Because a SCV has 5 hp more then probes and drones.
I still don't get why SCV health was nerfed by 5 early on. They had the extra health since we have the only worker vunerable during building buildings and the amount of times I've lost games purely because of that nerf is really annoying.
Because Marine SCV alls in were literally unstoppable.
And people still did them anyways even after the nerfs.
In BW 60 hp was op but Probe had 1.5~1.8 range (varied) Drone had 1.5 range (but still op!)
In SC2? all workers are now melee attack (although probes are weirdly ranged) That was why SCV should be nerfed to 45
(Does anyone also know that SCVs are both repairable and recoverable like hellbats? xp They are still annoying for having extra 5 hp because they don't instantly die by WM splash just as hellbats don't die by direct WM shot! lol)
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
On July 02 2013 22:02 monkybone wrote: Remember, a hellbat nerf like this would probably be complemented with a buff elsewhere. DK talked about cutting the cost of banshee cloak in half, making it less of an investment in the early game. This will improve terrans harassing options.
But cutting down to half? That is just too much... maybe 150/150, 100s. Have you seen this episode yet? lol
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
I don't see how you can say that, to get hellbats you need to get a factory with a reactor (with the long build time and 50 gas), you also need to make tech lab (25 gas) spend 110 ingame seconds researching blue flame during which you won't be able to make many hellbats. With the armory (100 gas), you first invest 325 gas into hellbat production before you get to actually use them. And this is while you have to get medivacs out, upgrades out and vikings out. And you also need to save some gas to get ghosts soon. How exactly is this not a nerf?
At the same time, 2-base chargelot builds will hit you before you get all of that done. Against Z, it basically removes pre-muta marauder-hellbat timings. We were looking for a solution that did not affect the other races.
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
A tech lab + the upgrade on a factory if you're going hellbats is really not a huge investment in the long run.
On July 02 2013 21:52 SsDrKosS wrote:
On July 02 2013 21:21 Bagi wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:53 monkybone wrote:
On July 02 2013 20:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
It might be quite expensive in mid game TvP but it won't be that much in the late game. If blue flame upgrade gets buffed, it would make disaster in TvZ because many choose hellion opening and research blue flame for Hellion anyway,
Come on. I know hellbat is armory unit, but their stupid cost should make them less effective than now it is. And the most important fact is that they are not permanently nerfed but blue flame upgrade will get their fulll power back!
150/150 is HUGE, like really HUGE in the early midgame, since techlabs, reactors, armory, etc all make the terran very tight on gas. No way a single terran will be so stupid to spend 150/150 on that upgrade. Better spend it on medivacs, mines, etc. And lategame tvp, hellbats are really a waste of supply.
The damage nerf to the hellbat won't remove drops, but the hellbat in the army will disapear forever, unless it's tvt.
Come on. I´m ready to bet my life on it that they won´t disappear. Do you really think that they won´t still kill lings? Zealots? Why every terran units has to be useful the whole game? Already your t1 units are also your lategame units. Terran is the only race that doesn´t really need to transition cause 3-3 makes their t1 into t3.
-12 damage is huge bro. They will disappear for sure. And why terran needs useful units? Because otherwise we get WOL back, where the last year was dominated by zergs, and foreign pro terrans were dead. Only koreans could compete, and the top code S terrans were dropping games to foreigners like jhonnyreco. That's why there is hots, and that's why terran units shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, like it happened in WOL.
Bro. This nerf is not pemenant. You can research back. And you have hellions@ (op!) WMs to hold back until the pre-igniter upgrade. Don't you think WM is helpful?
EPT
