EPTAdditionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement.
I don't want to see them nerfed at all!
David Kim comments on Hellbat drops - Page 46
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement. I don't want to see them nerfed at all! | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On July 05 2013 11:37 -_- wrote: Hellbat drops are very effective TvT, but not nearly as much PvT or ZvT because of Queens and Photon Overchange which every Zerg and Protoss will normally have around their bases. Additionally, Hellbats are very effective against Protoss who remax primarily on Zealots PvT after a major engagement. I don't want to see them nerfed at all! IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade. But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game? | ||
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CapTanObviOs
United States52 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
On July 05 2013 10:28 SsDrKosS wrote: So... ppl. you don't have to read all posts that ppl and I have discussed. but there are few points to ponder. 1. just removing bio tag is not a good solution because hellbat will be still cost effective 2. hellbat have too much aggression in the early game but not much in the late game 3. only TvT suffers the most in the early game. Well, the hellbat is technically a tier-3 unit, so it being cost effective is based off the preparation by the other player, much like banshees and other "rush openers". I'm not sure what removing the bio tag would do, but it would still take a lot of lings to take them out in ZvT, for example. Other than their early harassment potential, they are really not that great of a unit unless in certain situations, like Chargelots in PvT and mass ling in TvZ. They are slow, clunky units that are hard to even do damage in most matchups. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 04 2013 23:41 woreyour wrote: LOL what is troll with that son? Do you even understand the points? I think you don't even play terran. tsk tsk You are trolling because all those "separate games" you list are actually an evolution based on the same concept. That "we are in HotS now" remark is like a any of todays idiots who think that everything new must be better and has nothing to learn from the old. Too many kids these days are "worshippers of new technology" while not noticing that new stuff causes more problems than old stuff. And it isnt "stuff" only but also behaviours and general economy "advancements" which go down a bad path because kids are worshipping "the new" without question. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On July 05 2013 11:42 SsDrKosS wrote: IF you think only TvT early drop in Mineral line is the problem, this will solve. making Hellbat 16+4 so that it will 3 shots SCV but 2 shots Drone and probe. And you can research back in late game with IPI upgrade. But people. can you clarify this? is the hellbat drop problem in only mineral line drop or hellbat/medivac itself is too good in the early game? I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.) | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On July 05 2013 15:06 Ghanburighan wrote: I'd say that hellbats might be a problem all game in TvT but the 16+4 (as has been discussed to death) will make them obsolete in TvP, and much less frequent in TvZ and TvT standalone armies (the latter is speculation, it depends on how much people mech with standard blue flame hellion builds.) okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us  | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 05 2013 16:47 SsDrKosS wrote: okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us How about not trying to "fix the Hellbat" but rather fix the "drop delivery system" ... the Medivac? Without the boost the warning time and the time they are in range of turrets increase and make them riskier. Another reason why the Hellbat drop is powerful is that it is only two units that need to be dropped. Compare that to a Medivac of Marines and the Marines take AGES to deploy, which makes a Marine drop far less powerful. Thus adding a delay for dropping the second Hellbat (base on supply and implemented for all units and all races?) might be ok. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On July 05 2013 16:47 SsDrKosS wrote: okay... I'm trying to think of a solution that are not weird and afffects minimal amount of nerf in other matchups (for me 16+4light and IPI to get full is my personal favorite). so what would you suggest? help us You replied to my suggestion on the previous page (buff turret +3 against mechanical to make dropping a mineral line with a turret a 1-way trip), but I'd say even such proposals should be considered extremely carefully as it might have an effect on voidray all-in's, bio versus mech TvT, and warp prism play in PvT. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On July 05 2013 16:53 Rabiator wrote: How about not trying to "fix the Hellbat" but rather fix the "drop delivery system" ... the Medivac? Without the boost the warning time and the time they are in range of turrets increase and make them riskier. Another reason why the Hellbat drop is powerful is that it is only two units that need to be dropped. Compare that to a Medivac of Marines and the Marines take AGES to deploy, which makes a Marine drop far less powerful. Thus adding a delay for dropping the second Hellbat (base on supply and implemented for all units and all races?) might be ok. I actually started posting lots about hellbat nerf from the end of june because i'm pretty sure they will not fix medivac. according to their comments on medivac, they LOVE current speedvac. But if they can fix medivac, screw what I've posted in team liquid. BLIZZARD! FIX MEDIVAC! btw, I will buy our suggestion only in some degree. I like your idea but maybe making unload delayed according to cargo size. (I don't want hellbat to be dropped as the same as maurader and hellion) | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 05 2013 17:08 SsDrKosS wrote: I actually started posting lots about hellbat nerf from the end of june because i'm pretty sure they will not fix medivac. according to their comments on medivac, they LOVE current speedvac. But if they can fix medivac, screw what I've posted in team liquid. BLIZZARD! FIX MEDIVAC! btw, I will buy our suggestion only in some degree. I like your idea but maybe making unload delayed according to cargo size. (I don't want hellbat to be dropped as the same as maurader and hellion) Personally I detest the "unload delay solution" because it would have to be done for all units and all races equally, but since no one seems to notice that little tidbit about the power of Hellbat drops I put it on the table. You are probably right in basing the delay on cargo space. Instead of a speed boost I would add an upgrade for the Medivac on the Fusion Core and this would either ... - allow you to instantly unload everything from the Medivac with an active click and a cooldown on the "drop beam" OR - land the Medivac and change into a sort of bunker where the units inside can shoot out. Obviously it stops healing units while on the ground, but if it is destroyed the units get out unharmed like a regular bunker. This is also a good way to escape from "aa only air units" like Vikings and Corruptors and Phoenix should not be able to lift it while they are landed. I like these suggestions much more thant the speed boost, but Blizzard is on their "speed solves everything" trip ... | ||
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SkySnake2005
Belgium46 Posts
The difference between Hellion and Hellbat should be (according to Blizz) that Hellions are fast, micro intensive lightweight units. They should be able to harass mineral lines, provided the terran can get it in said mineral line. We already saw in WoL (albeit after +1 year) that Terrans were adapting and using the Hellion better and better for this, until they got slightly nerfed. Blue flame upgrade was necessary to increase damage enough to improve harassment impact. And Terrans already used the Hellion drop (4 in 1 Medivac) to try and kill a mineral line. Because the Medivac did not have boost yet, there were certain risks involved in this drop strategy. Micro-intensive, no certainty of how the opponent would react, no certainty of getting out alive. In comes HotS, where now we have Hellbats and Speedivacs. Hellbats are beefier Hellions, with healing capability (coz bio) and a high dps in a splash cone. Referring to the Hellion above, the downside (according to Blizz again) is that they are very slow and clunky. Blizz's idea was to provide the Transformation Servos to switch between two stances in order to make them an interesting unit that could benefit from both form's pros, while suffering the drawbacks "when the player chooses to switch". In Hellbat form, they are a good counter to zerglings. They work good vs Zealots. These were the main reasons Hellbats were added (as a buff for mech). In my opinion, that should not change. However, the (free, as in no research) speedivac takes away the weak point of the Hellbat; suddenly, you can have Hellbats in locations otherwise nigh impossible for Hellbats to reach (e.g. in the middle of a mineral line). It is the combination of the huge splash high dps, only 2 HBs per medivac (so fast drop time) and boost speed of the medivac (all OK on its own) that form the real issue, methinks. And on the point D. Kim mentions as it being too easy to execute, I also wholeheartedly agree: almost no risks, very high rewards. One can drop 5 times, be 4 times unsuccessful, but if the last one is a full hit, then you can still come out ahead. It does not improve high level play, it dumbs it down. So in my opinion, an interesting way of trying to solve this is to make Hellbats harder to use: 1) Make Transformation Servos available on the Tech Lab of a Factory immediately (no Armory requirement) 2) Remove option of building Hellbats directly. 3) Make transformation required to reach Hellbat form (just like HT/DT -> Archon, ling -> bane, corruptor -> BL) These steps make it a tad more difficult to get Hellbats (if you forget to transform), without compromizing balance. 4) Prevent Hellbats from being transportable by Medivac just like the deployed siege tank. (They can come up with a new attribute for that for example, like they did before) 5) NO change to the damage output of Hellbats or the healing The fact that this will eliminate HB drops is, imo, not a problem. Terrans can still drop Hellions, as we already saw in WoL. Combined with the speed boost, this can still be hard to handle; but the hellions would be easier to take down than the Hellbats. Hellbats can still serve their role as beefy tank units (that can be healed) in a mech/biomech composition. I would imagine sneaky high level Terrans being able to go in with a 4 hellion drop, transform 1/2 Hellbats, walk them to the ramp while triggering the worker pullback with the other Hellions, to then see them evaporate on said ramp ... | ||
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tns
1054 Posts
On July 03 2013 23:26 EFermi wrote: Yep, SC2 is BARELY a strategy game at this point. Too much micro involved... engagement game? micro one engagement... Flash said sc2 should have bigger armies... bw : - not that much workers, less minerals patch - 12 units max per boxing - control group/building : 1 - speed game less faster than sc2 basically, bigger armies, more multitask, more time to spend on macro, more time for better games xD What would these changes be, to balance the game better? Flash: I think that each unit costs too much supply right now. So even when you have a 200/200 army, it doesn't feel like you have much stuff. I think changing that will make it more entertaining. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3368 Posts
Flash said sc2 should have bigger armies... Though I really hate to quote Flash, I agree that SC2 should have higher supply limit, if we don't want 3 base max army, instantly. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 06 2013 19:17 ejozl wrote: Though I really hate to quote Flash, I agree that SC2 should have higher supply limit, if we don't want 3 base max army, instantly. You could alternatively lower the economy so that it is hard to get to the 200 supply limit; BW did it and was "kinda ok" to watch. The 200 supply limit is arbitrarily chosen, BUT you have to ask yourself several questions when thinking about raising it: 1. Is a battle with more units really "better" or does that just cluster the screen too much for the viewer / overload the player with more tasks and ultimately makes unit micro a thing of the past. 2. Will a higher supply limit enable more units to reach a critical number so they become "quasi invulnerable" and ultimately too efficient to be balanced? 3. Will a higher supply limit not be advantageous to the races with the highest economy? Zerg usually have a higher economy and they have to be careful about finding the right balance between workers and army, but with a higher limit they can have awesome worker supply with an even bigger army. The other two races do have problems defending more bases than now, so it might end up as a clear advantage for Zerg. 4. If you had a bigger economy, will that become a disadvantage for Terrans due to the fact that they need the most production buildings? 5. How can you adjust the supply numbers of the units better if you stick to "integer" numbers? So ... Flash is wrong in this case if he ever said that. --- Technically it is possible to make a game with MANY MORE units, but that doesnt make the game more exciting. Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander, Total War games all have wayy more units, but these games are good because of the style of the fights ... and Starcraft has a completely different style to them. An artificial limitation which is not based upon the computer power - as it makes sense for those other games because they can get laggy if everyone has 700 units - might be a good thing just as an artificial limitation to 12 units per control group could be necessary to make Starcraft work better and without as much deathball and clump action. | ||
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GUNZx5
10 Posts
Removing the biotag as some have suggested would help with the drops; however, it would also nerf the bio army when hellbats are mixed in. Hellbats were meant to be able to be mixed in to both bio and mech armies (apparent by the healing aspect of the hellbats) and therefore should remain as such. So again, we look to the drop as being the main the problem and specifically, the boost ability of the medivacs. This is what allows hell bats to be so effective as it doesn't really matter if there are defenses set up because one can just boost over them and still deal a great amount of economic damage. If the defending player pulls the scvs, it still doesn't matter too much as the hellbats just get loaded back up and then boosted over to them again. When the army comes to deal with the hellbats, they can just be loaded up and boosted away so that they can return again when the army is gone making it so the defending player has a hard time leaving their base (going viking/phoenix/muta would stop this but then that also confines the defending players options and they would always have to do this which again is another win for the hellbat player). In dealing with the medivac speedboost, you cannot simply take it away as this is a huge nerf to terran. Bio drops will pretty much become obsolete (except maybe in tvt) as zerg and protoss have both been given better defensive options (faster mutas and mothership core). Being that dropping has always been a staple of the Terran race which makes the race both fun to play and exciting to watch from a spectator perspective, disabling the boost and rendering drops very ineffective would also be a bad option. Given everything that I have said so far, it should become obvious what the best solution is: Disable the boosting ability of medivacs while a hellbat is in them. Let's look at some of the implications of this. Less defenses will be necessary for dealing with the drops. The medivac will have to be better controlled because slowly flying over a turret will result in more damage to the medivac making the hellbat drops more risky. The opponent will have more time to react to the drop in the first place as the drop is slower. Once the workers are pulled, the hellbats won't be able to be loaded into the medivac and easily catch up to the workers again. This sounds like a plausible solution that will fix the problem with hellbat drops without weakening the Terran army as a whole. As a last note: This nerf would definitely make hellbat drops be much less effective. Hellbat drops would still have the potential to deal big damage as the units themselves have not been altered; but, they would be easier to deal with from the defender's side. It is even quite possible that they would not even be worth doing again (this would have to be tested to see if it's truly the case). However, having an option for a terran to go hellbat drops is still good (as more options for a race is always better from a player's and spectator's perspective). If the nerf completely gets rid of hellbat drops, an option could be to remove the armory requirement again for the hellbats. That way, they can still be an early game option that a terran can go for and the opponent would have to be prepared for accordingly. Hellbat drops would still be able to do decent in late game scenarios as many things are happening at once and the defender might not have the apm/map awareness to react to the hellbat drops while doing the other tasks required of them and big damage could still occur. Static defenses would still be needed at those further away expansions (as they are now pre-nerf) to deny the drops which is still good for the hellbat player as the other player had to invest in something. I believe this could be a great solution to the problem at hand and should be contemplated further. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On July 06 2013 19:17 ejozl wrote: Though I really hate to quote Flash, I agree that SC2 should have higher supply limit, if we don't want 3 base max army, instantly. You don't need to higher the supply limit, just make the "bigger" units cost less supply. Tanks being 3 supply is bad enough, but a thor being 6 just mean to have a mech army with any form of anti air your army is about 3 times smaller than it should be. | ||
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faderedguy
Indonesia58 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 06 2013 19:17 ejozl wrote: Though I really hate to quote Flash, I agree that SC2 should have higher supply limit, if we don't want 3 base max army, instantly. Finally you can counter ultralisks with widow mines? Finally T/Z can play with 300supply roach/hydra marine/marauder at the time Protoss reaches 200? Finally we can witness 13-14min 300supply roach pushes? SC2 is so strongly balanced around that supply limit, without it most of the lategame transitions lose their right to exist and lowtier spams such as roach/hydra and bio become even more dominant. | ||
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ProAndrii
United Kingdom17 Posts
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