EPTNow to my question: Do you think the matchup is more fun to watch if it is roach vs roach as it is the case right now or if it is muta-ling-bling vs muta-ling-bling as it was previously? While there is the possibility that it will evolve I'll exclude that option for now. I personally think the muta-ling-bling was faster, more control-focused and in general more fun to watch.
Was the second spore crawler buff worth it?
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
Now to my question: Do you think the matchup is more fun to watch if it is roach vs roach as it is the case right now or if it is muta-ling-bling vs muta-ling-bling as it was previously? While there is the possibility that it will evolve I'll exclude that option for now. I personally think the muta-ling-bling was faster, more control-focused and in general more fun to watch. | ||
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Msr
Korea (South)495 Posts
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lue
Sweden27 Posts
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ThatGuyDoMo
Australia516 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:37 Msr wrote: well its 3 shots muta, and muta v muta the better player almost always wins, now it is slightly less so. I would not focus on blizzard's balancing as their patches at the end of wc3 showed how clueless and ignorant they are. I would argue muta vs muta has a lower skill ceiling and gave lower level skill players a higher chance of beating somebody better than them due to the predictability / simplicity of the style when compared to roach hydra infestor micro / teching / remaxing. | ||
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Prugelhugel
Austria637 Posts
But the way ZvZ evolved after the second buff is fine to me. Mass upgrade lings vs mass upgrade ling is more of an APM/skill game. Muta vs Muta was just too broken. You had to blindly bang your heads against each other in the hope of having one or two units more. I also think we haven't reach the end stage of this matchup. Dimaga showed some pretty impressive fast T3 techs at WCS, while his enemies tried to counter with SHs. And I really see a lot more fast Ultras at the ladder - if you ask me, we are heading into the right direction. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7967 Posts
gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad | ||
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ETisME
12274 Posts
but the patch could definitly be done differently, right now it feels extremely awkward and lazy. Hopefully this is just a placeholder patch for a proper ZvZ patch | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:48 Prugelhugel wrote: I'd love swarmhosts vs swarmhosts. Will never happen though.^^ Happened in WCS  The better player won it with much better micro by a longshot. | ||
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RiSkysc2
696 Posts
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Fody03
Italy310 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:49 Tsubbi wrote: it was a very strange bandaid fix and seriously it just feels wrong and lazy game design wise to buff static defense damage to a single unit of ones own race by 300% gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad band aid or not,in ZvZ there more available tech patch now than just Muta vs Muta, i.e. SH vs Roach,fast ultras,etc Muta is still viable,its just more like WoL which was a way to get map control and then transition in other tech,like infestors. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:34 Aunvilgod wrote: In case you do no know: The damage of spore crawlers vs biological was buffed twice from straight 15 to 15 +30 vs biological. The result of this is that spore crawlers 4shot mutas now which seems(!) to kill muta play in the matchup. Since the patch we predominantly see just roach into hydra play with hardly any lings or infestors in the mix. Now to my question: Do you think the matchup is more fun to watch if it is roach vs roach as it is the case right now or if it is muta-ling-bling vs muta-ling-bling as it was previously? While there is the possibility that it will evolve I'll exclude that option for now. I personally think the muta-ling-bling was faster, more control-focused and in general more fun to watch. In case you do no know: spore crawlers 3 shot mutas now! As they only have 120 hp, and 45*3 = 135 damage Also in case you do no know: at least for the NA and KR scene the game seems to already have shifted towards mass ling/bling. In WoL this style came to its limits when two fungals would evaporate 20 banelings, so hardly anyone would go for that. In HotS the Mutas denied banelings (and more important you needed the gas for more Mutas to win Muta wars). Then people tried to fall back onto Roach/Hydra wars. Turns out without the infestor support Ling/Bling still can easily win this, Mutas/Ling/Bling can easily win this, and even if it gets to a Roach vs Roach batlle the guy going infestors first most of the time loses, as infestors just don't cut it anymore against roaches (or lings, given the player controlling them actually does control them). There is also the dark horse of rushing T3, but I blame this rather on lack of knowledge of most players on how to punish it rather than becoming a viable main strategy in the matchup. I am sure most Zerg players would love to go to roach wars once more, or muta wars, as long as the game is not as coinflippy as the current state where at least half the games are decided purely on ling + bling wars. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:46 ThatGuyDoMo wrote: I would argue muta vs muta has a lower skill ceiling and gave lower level skill players a higher chance of beating somebody better than them due to the predictability / simplicity of the style when compared to roach hydra infestor micro / teching / remaxing. In my opinion it is the complete opposite. Muta vs Muta has a way way higher skill ceiling than roach hydra infestor. In muta vs muta you have to play really tightly because every slight disadvantage will lead to less mutas, it's way harder to come back from those disadvantages with muta vs muta because there are no choke points in the air ( obviously) where you can force a good engagement. The micro is also way harder between all your lings/blings and your mutas/corruptors | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I do think roach/hydra is the better out of the two simply because a fight shouldn't come to pure numbers alone. Mutas vs mutas is not a fight you can micro in any meaningful way either. We are also seeing way more variety with mutas, infestors, ultras and swarm hosts all seeing some use. This wasn't really the case with muta vs muta where winning the fight in the air was the only thing that counted. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On June 08 2013 21:05 Liquid`Ret wrote: I really dislike the patch, Muta vs Muta at least kept the matchup logical and straight forward, now its back to random builds and timings I hate when zvz is like this. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7967 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:56 Fody03 wrote: band aid or not,in ZvZ there more available tech patch now than just Muta vs Muta, i.e. SH vs Roach,fast ultras,etc Muta is still viable,its just more like WoL which was a way to get map control and then transition in other tech,like infestors. but thats just not how a game should be designed, like right now hellbat drops seem very strong especially in tvt, should they half the hellbat damage to scvs ? they should really come up with more elegant solutions | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:58 solidbebe wrote: In my opinion it is the complete opposite. Muta vs Muta has a way way higher skill ceiling than roach hydra infestor. In muta vs muta you have to play really tightly because every slight disadvantage will lead to less mutas, it's way harder to come back from those disadvantages with muta vs muta because there are no choke points in the air ( obviously) where you can force a good engagement. The micro is also way harder between all your lings/blings and your mutas/corruptors The reason I think Muta play has a higher skill ceiling is that I feel like we then see more and faster counter attacks than with roachplay. With roaches the game spirals out of control a little faster I think. | ||
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theredsc
Romania19 Posts
. im a protoss player so i dont really watch zvz but those matches were really really good | ||
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Serinox
Germany5224 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:37 Msr wrote: well its 3 shots muta, and muta v muta the better player almost always wins, now it is slightly less so. I would not focus on blizzard's balancing as their patches at the end of wc3 showed how clueless and ignorant they are. As someone who didn't follow the WC3 scene, can you give me an example of that? | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
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