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Hitch-22
Canada753 Posts
Think of spores like On June 08 2013 21:17 Chrono000 wrote: patch was good. just think of spores like terran turrets now Not quite, think of spores like 2 terran turrets (or more). Muta's roll terran turrets now whereas they get stomped by spores. | ||
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Dr.Sin
Canada1126 Posts
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willstertben
427 Posts
On June 09 2013 01:15 Emzeeshady wrote: Seriously this. Does Blizzard have a personal vendetta against Hydralisks or something? They are pretty much fucking terrible at everything. The units they "counter" fuck them up and Hydras are useless vs air. Mutas shit on them, Voids rays laugh at them and Roach/Hydra is the ultimate throw the game away strategy in ZvT. Blizzards big idea to make Hydras useful was to make another expensive upgrade available making it so you need to spend 300/300 before they can even be remotely useful. The speed doesn't even help the fact they melt vs any remote splash damage and cost as much minerals as 3 marines not even including the extra gas costs DESPITE 3 Marines having a WAY higher dps then a Hydra while being faster, available at tier one and can be healed. The thing is Hydras are cool units. They look scary, have great aesthetics and are great tactical units to watch. Even a slight buff vs air would make Hydras way better and I see no foreseeable way it which this could make them even remotely imbalanced. /end rant :p ONE HUNDRED FUCKING PERCENT AGREED. i said it right when i saw hydra speed upgrade: the units are still shit, speed's not gonna change it. the problem was never their movement speed, but their stats for cost ratio being utter shit. i don't think the problem is their damage though. hydras deal nice damage. the problem is their 80 hp at 2 supply and roaches being so bad so you can't really use them for tanking (which contrary to hydras they should be, cause low tech and cheap units. hydras on the other hand are expensive, higher tech and still bad units). hydras should either be 1 supply and have their stats adjusted or they should get a hp buff/upgrade. otherwise they will always stay shit. | ||
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Penev
28485 Posts
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
Giving spinecrawlers same bonus but removing root/unroot ability would be great change. Root/unroot gimmick should be removed from the game, its just a cool feature, has no strategic element whatsoever. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 09 2013 01:21 Hitch-22 wrote: Mutas went from 6 shot (I believe?) to 3 shots which is absolutely ridiculous ... It should have been changed from 6 shots to 5 or 4 but not 3, it's so silly and ruins the MU. Think of spores like Not quite, think of spores like 2 terran turrets (or more). Muta's roll terran turrets now whereas they get stomped by spores. It went from 5(due to regen) shots to 3. I agree that they probably should've just gone from 5 to 4 to test the waters. Could've even made it just shy of 3 shots(such as 40 dmg instead of 45), so if the zerg player was microing against the spore, it'd take a while to regen after the encounter. That being said, I do feel ZvZ is byfar better after the change. With roach vs roach, you can see some strategy, where you're pulling your opponent out of position, harassing etc etc, but muta vs muta was just a clusterfuck with "who gets bases/geysers earlier and gets mutas out earlier". The only cool thing about muta vs muta was imo the fact that the ground fight mattered to the air fight, but it wasn't like you could see a whole lot of the ground fight anyway due to the mass mutas above. | ||
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
The options are much more vast now. | ||
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
On June 09 2013 02:05 JacobShock wrote: I think we might be complaining a bit too much (surprise) The options are much more vast now. The problem is that a lot of people don't think they're better options. Mutas may have been the only go-to strategy, but you always knew who the better player was at the end of the series. Right now it's back to pulling two builds out of a hat and mashing them together, and mutas aren't an option at all. | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
Muta vs muta was completely retarded. I strongly disagree with the notion that "the better player won more often". In most cases, it was just a matter of who was willing to play more greedy and stupid or by catching the other person’s muta since you don’t get to have ovies out on the map, more randomness is introduced. Also it was by far the least skillful battles I have ever seen! Just bloody attack and if your lings won the ground war you could park them under the mutas, and that was it!! Completely ridiculous. Yeah there are more builds now to account for, but that is a good thing!!! That is where the skill of Starcraft comes in! Scouting your opponent and interpreting the moves! This was the perfect change as mutas still provide the map control they are supposed to give, but they are no longer the be all end all just mass me forever unit that they used to be. There are even so many scouting options for zerg to avoid losing to “random builds” and plenty of standard builds that are going to keep you safe even without scouting against most builds! You might as well start complaining that there is Fog of War in SC2 since there basically wasn’t in ZvZ before the patch (either complete all in or mutas)… | ||
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DeathProfessor
United States1052 Posts
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On June 09 2013 01:15 Emzeeshady wrote: Seriously this. Does Blizzard have a personal vendetta against Hydralisks or something? They are pretty much fucking terrible at everything. The units they "counter" fuck them up and Hydras are useless vs air. Mutas shit on them, Voids rays laugh at them and Roach/Hydra is the ultimate throw the game away strategy in ZvT. Blizzards big idea to make Hydras useful was to make another expensive upgrade available making it so you need to spend 300/300 before they can even be remotely useful. The speed doesn't even help the fact they melt vs any remote splash damage and cost as much minerals as 3 marines not even including the extra gas costs DESPITE 3 Marines having a WAY higher dps then a Hydra while being faster, available at tier one and can be healed. The thing is Hydras are cool units. They look scary, have great aesthetics and are great tactical units to watch. Even a slight buff vs air would make Hydras way better and I see no foreseeable way it which this could make them even remotely imbalanced. /end rant :p Someone isn't familiar with 3 hatch hydra in zvp apparently. They are a good tool to transition into a muta switch or into a late game viper timing. Problem is we see many progamers getting the vipers 5 minutes too late, when they could have afforded the switch, and making too many hydras. They are a unit you shouldn't spend more than 20-30 supply on, and plenty of people make the mistake of making too many. In ZvZ plenty of people win from behind by transitioning into hydras before the other zerg, so I do not accept that hydras are shit in that matchup. As for hydras in ZvT, well we have seen a little bit of usage of roach hydra in zvt, and it's not absolutely terrible. Plus swarmhost hydra has potential, just no one seems to be really pushing it to the limit in testing it out. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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408xParadox
United States140 Posts
Because the better player wins 100% of the time. | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On June 09 2013 01:07 _Search_ wrote: The issue is that it was the wrong buff and mutalisks are still incredibly strong. The reason players stopped using mutas is because they're a mid-game unit so roaches tend to rule the early game. Hydralisks should have been buffed instead of spore crawlers. Void Rays have essentially broken ZvP, Hydra/Roach is still a total troll build in TvZ and Hydralisks have been notoriously awful since 2010. Really, Hydralisks should be hatchery tech. So many balance issues would have been outright solved had hydras been hatchery tech. I don't think you can change much about the hydralisk without ruining TvZ and PvZ. | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
I see your worthless post and raise you one more worthless response, except this time completely fitting:  | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On June 09 2013 02:08 -Kaiser- wrote: The problem is that a lot of people don't think they're better options. Mutas may have been the only go-to strategy, but you always knew who the better player was at the end of the series. Right now it's back to pulling two builds out of a hat and mashing them together, and mutas aren't an option at all. Most of the comments I heard about muta wars was that it was super coinflippy. You aren't better because you put down your gases 15 seconds before the other player. You aren't better for taking a guess at a risk to get one more muta out. Now there is scouting to see what your opponent is doing, there is the ability to defend against mutas without requiring more mutas than your opponent. You no longer have to guess if your giant thing of mutas is larger than their giant thing of mutas. And most of all, as an observer, I don't have to watch two people think their muta blob is larger and a-clicking into each other. The patch was good. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On June 09 2013 02:58 408xParadox wrote: Because the better player wins 100% of the time. weird because there are lots of series that don't end to zero On June 09 2013 03:02 Aunvilgod wrote: I don't think you can change much about the hydralisk without ruining TvZ and PvZ. how. hydras are laughable units now. how would they break tvz and pvz if they were suddenly viable? how. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
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Foreplay
United States1154 Posts
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