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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 08 2013 21:13 Serinox wrote: As someone who didn't follow the WC3 scene, can you give me an example of that? Even if that was true WC3 and SC2 were developed by entirely different teams, better just ignore him. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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marcjpb
Canada64 Posts
I prefer the roach vs roach instead of muta vs muta mostly because in roach vs roach everything is how and/or where you engage. IF you have the perfect concave, you can win a roach vs roach having lower number of roach. As for muta, since they are a flyng unit, they are no obstacle so its a lot more A move type of engagement then anything else. I dont think ive ever seen the player with 4 muta less to win a muta wars. | ||
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Orangered
289 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:53 Figgy wrote: Happened in WCS  The better player won it with much better micro by a longshot. fuck I missed it. who did? | ||
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JKM
Denmark419 Posts
.Roro vs Soulkey game 4 had a few swarmhosts enter the field at the end stages, but the army composition of both players was mainly roach-hydra. | ||
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:37 Msr wrote: well its 3 shots muta, and muta v muta the better player almost always wins, now it is slightly less so. I would not focus on blizzard's balancing as their patches at the end of wc3 showed how clueless and ignorant they are. The better player won maybe 90% of the time in zvz before the spore buff, now its maybe 60-70% just my guess. But blizzard don really care about that they want a exciting game not a fair game. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Spores get a change and we are seeing mass roach vs roach. While WoL has proven that you need to tech out of mono roach into roach/hydra or roach/infestor or even better all 3 whenever possible. I am just me, but I feel like ZvZ is the worst match-up played by pro gamers. Like there is nobody that "gets" ZvZ. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
But time will tell hopefully zerg vs zerg cotinues to evolve and not devolve back to mutas | ||
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playerboy345
Netherlands194 Posts
On June 08 2013 21:05 Liquid`Ret wrote: I really dislike the patch, Muta vs Muta at least kept the matchup logical and straight forward, now its back to random builds and timings  My exact thoughts, zvz is random as fuck and muta v muta was much more fun to play. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
On June 08 2013 22:05 Usernameffs wrote: The better player won maybe 90% of the time in zvz before the spore buff, now its maybe 60-70% just my guess. But blizzard don really care about that they want a exciting game not a fair game. The better player doesn't win 90% of the time in any matchup, stop pulling statistics out your ass. Besides, mutas made it far more volatile, whoever got the most had an almost insurmountable edge. Now the better player can grind it out with better control/positioning/comp/macro etc. There's plenty of reasons to bash Blizzard but the spore change isn't one of them. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Msr
Korea (South)495 Posts
On June 08 2013 22:18 Scarecrow wrote: The better player doesn't win 90% of the time in any matchup, stop pulling statistics out your ass. Besides, mutas made it far more volatile, whoever got the most had an almost insurmountable edge. Now the better player can grind it out with better control/positioning/comp/macro etc. There's plenty of reasons to bash Blizzard but the spore change isn't one of them. everything you said in this post is incorrect. | ||
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Meatex
Australia285 Posts
I watch dimaga, snute and ret to see how the gameplay is evolving from time to time though. Seems like spores are now at least a threat to muta which is good I will return if the change ZvT otherwise will check out legacy of the void | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On June 08 2013 22:40 Meatex wrote: I quit sc2 in part because of how bad (read one dimensional) ZvZ I watch dimaga, snute and ret to see how the gameplay is evolving from time to time though. Seems like spores are now at least a threat to muta which is good I will return if the change ZvT otherwise will check out legacy of the void Nice foreign player bash bait, but i wont bite. OT: Imo the last buff was too much, it just killed mutas. It feels like way too "binary" - muta ok - muta bad. The required multitasking for controlling mutas (same as Phx if you are P) somewhat efficient raised the skill ceiling of that matchup nicely. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 08 2013 21:05 Liquid`Ret wrote: I really dislike the patch, Muta vs Muta at least kept the matchup logical and straight forward, now its back to random builds and timings I think this is proof that it worked. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16127 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:49 Tsubbi wrote: it was a very strange bandaid fix and seriously it just feels wrong and lazy game design wise to buff static defense damage to a single unit of ones own race by 300% gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad The real issue with Muta War ZvZ is twofold. 1. It's boring as hell to watch. Pretty much been the case forever. No one likes to watch a bunch of Mutas flying around not engaging each other only to watch a player tap out before any kind of conclusive engagement happens. 2. Muta War ZvZ prevented any other unit type from ever really seeing the light of day in ZvZ. This feeds back into point 1. The alternative Roach/Hydralisk based core has room for much variation and incorporation of other unit types especially units on Hive tech, something Muta Wars never did. Even if players enjoyed playing it, Muta Wars was bad for ZvZ from a spectator and by that sense esports perspective. Buffing alternatives was necessary. Mutalisks still play a key role in ZvZ but they are no longer the titans of the match up, in the long run it's better this way. | ||
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synd
Bulgaria586 Posts
But it's Blizz. What do we expect. Fix the matchup by not fixing the problem. As someone said already, it's just a bandaid fix. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On June 08 2013 21:08 Tsubbi wrote: but thats just not how a game should be designed, like right now hellbat drops seem very strong especially in tvt, should they half the hellbat damage to scvs ? they should really come up with more elegant solutions No.... you should just make a couple more turrets. This ZvZ change was, imo, one of the best they've ever made.... it specifcally targets one matchup without effecting the others, which is how things should be done. There was no other way to do it, if you buff any other unit to deal with mutas then you would throw the balance off in another matchup, if you nerf mutas you do the same in favours of the other races. It wasn't a band aid at all, it was a targetted way to only effect that one specific matchup and strat. Mutas are still viable, they just aren't a killing blow any more... i've seen plenty of mutas since the patch in pro ZvZ, just no muta wars going on all game. | ||
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lue
Sweden27 Posts
On June 08 2013 23:07 emythrel wrote: No.... you should just make a couple more turrets. This ZvZ change was, imo, one of the best they've ever made.... it specifcally targets one matchup without effecting the others, which is how things should be done. There was no other way to do it, if you buff any other unit to deal with mutas then you would throw the balance off in another matchup, if you nerf mutas you do the same in favours of the other races. It wasn't a band aid at all, it was a targetted way to only effect that one specific matchup and strat. Mutas are still viable, they just aren't a killing blow any more... i've seen plenty of mutas since the patch in pro ZvZ, just no muta wars going on all game. They could've just given the bio damage buff to hydras(but obviously not that huge), thus allowing zergs to go either hydras OR mutas, it would also make hydras somewhat useful against bio terrans, thus creating additional options aside from ling/bling/muta into ultras in that matchup aswell. | ||
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Gben592
United Kingdom281 Posts
On June 08 2013 23:07 synd wrote: Idk how buffing static defense while not fixing the problematic unit itself is a fix. In ZvZ, ZvP - mutas are ridiculously good and with the muta regen/speed they can gain insane map control + harass potential. Demolishing mineral lines in seconds. But it's Blizz. What do we expect. Fix the matchup by not fixing the problem. As someone said already, it's just a bandaid fix. Well, in ZvP think Blizzard is hoping that the players just get on with it and learn how to deal with mutas, rather than have the players ask Blizzard to make the game easier to deal with their own inadequacies. The spore patch was mainly about making the matchup more diverse, thus more entertaining to watch. + I think map control and harass potential is the whole idea... | ||
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