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The problem with muta play is that the fights suck hard.... contrary to ground battle it only come down to whoever has the bigger number of mutas and the best flyers upgrades. A good concave doesn't mean anything in muta battle no more than tactical manoeuvers to get perfect engagements.
Mutas are so fast that you can't really get caught with them even if you played badly and went into a ridiculous position.
Ground play with roach/hydra looks way cooler for me from that perspective, but it is indeed less dynamic.
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I understand what everybody is saying, but as a low-skilled player (gold league FTW) i feel that only muta vs muta is boring.
The fact is that if you still have many mutas it's not because of one or two spores that you won't attack a base.. so it's not that bad!
flying over with a pack of mutas destroy everything in seconds and get out without any damage was kinda silly.. you can still do it but you lose something now.
I think it was necessary and maybe impossible to solve without affecting other matchups.. buff do queen/hydra/infestor or a nerf in the mutas would have a much bigger impact on the game
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On June 08 2013 21:05 Liquid`Ret wrote: I really dislike the patch, Muta vs Muta at least kept the matchup logical and straight forward, now its back to random builds and timings 
simply means more patch
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On June 08 2013 20:34 Aunvilgod wrote:
In case you do no know: The damage of spore crawlers vs biological was buffed twice from straight 15 to 15 +30 vs biological. The result of this is that spore crawlers 3shot mutas now which seems(!) to kill muta play in the matchup. Since the patch we predominantly see just roach into hydra play with hardly any lings or infestors in the mix.
Now to my question: Do you think the matchup is more fun to watch if it is roach vs roach as it is the case right now or if it is muta-ling-bling vs muta-ling-bling as it was previously? While there is the possibility that it will evolve I'll exclude that option for now. I personally think the muta-ling-bling was faster, more control-focused and in general more fun to watch.
yes, the matchup is much better. It just hasn't settled at this point and a lot of people are metagaming mutas and double upgraded zerglings (the previous strongest options) with aggressive roaches at that point.
If both players open roach, it should obviously play out much more WoL like (which is better in its own already than HotS muta-wars). But because infestors are much weaker, the WoL roach/hydra style would be the obvious transition.
However, then swarm hosts play seems to beat that. And due to vipers, lategame broodlords just plainly suck (against hydra/viper), while ultras have become significantly stronger. Either from a mutalisk or from a roach midgame.
What we have seen up to now isn't how the metagame will look, because there are obvious answers (one that even has been proven to work in WoL and since then has not been nerfed) to the showcased roachheavy style that straight up beat it.
You don't give it enough time with this thread. It's been only a few weeks. And the first of those weeks have been used to figure whether it even helps against mutas. Now that we know that, we can slowly start building a metagame around it.
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On June 08 2013 22:27 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 22:18 Scarecrow wrote:On June 08 2013 22:05 Usernameffs wrote:On June 08 2013 20:37 Msr wrote:
well its 3 shots muta, and muta v muta the better player almost always wins, now it is slightly less so. I would not focus on blizzard's balancing as their patches at the end of wc3 showed how clueless and ignorant they are. The better player won maybe 90% of the time in zvz before the spore buff, now its maybe 60-70% just my guess. But blizzard don really care about that they want a exciting game not a fair game. The better player doesn't win 90% of the time in any matchup, stop pulling statistics out your ass. Besides, mutas made it far more volatile, whoever got the most had an almost insurmountable edge. Now the better player can grind it out with better control/positioning/comp/macro etc. There's plenty of reasons to bash Blizzard but the spore change isn't one of them. everything you said in this post is incorrect.
Why?
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On June 08 2013 23:18 lue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 23:07 emythrel wrote:On June 08 2013 21:08 Tsubbi wrote:On June 08 2013 20:56 Fody03 wrote:On June 08 2013 20:49 Tsubbi wrote:
it was a very strange bandaid fix and seriously it just feels wrong and lazy game design wise to buff static defense damage to a single unit of ones own race by 300%
gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad band aid or not,in ZvZ there more available tech patch now than just Muta vs Muta, i.e. SH vs Roach,fast ultras,etc Muta is still viable,its just more like WoL which was a way to get map control and then transition in other tech,like infestors. but thats just not how a game should be designed, like right now hellbat drops seem very strong especially in tvt, should they half the hellbat damage to scvs ? they should really come up with more elegant solutions No.... you should just make a couple more turrets. This ZvZ change was, imo, one of the best they've ever made.... it specifcally targets one matchup without effecting the others, which is how things should be done. There was no other way to do it, if you buff any other unit to deal with mutas then you would throw the balance off in another matchup, if you nerf mutas you do the same in favours of the other races. It wasn't a band aid at all, it was a targetted way to only effect that one specific matchup and strat. Mutas are still viable, they just aren't a killing blow any more... i've seen plenty of mutas since the patch in pro ZvZ, just no muta wars going on all game. They could've just given the bio damage buff to hydras(but obviously not that huge), thus allowing zergs to go either hydras OR mutas, it would also make hydras somewhat useful against bio terrans, thus creating additional options aside from ling/bling/muta into ultras in that matchup aswell.
Hydras are already very strong in a straight up fight against bio. No bio terran would be able to hold a 2/2 timing with buffed hydras, not to even mention the fact that it would also buff roach/hydra against hellbats and thus mech.
Also a buff against zealots, further complicating things... Luckily you aren't on the balance team.
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I think the change is just fine, the matchup is evolving at the moment, earlier it was nearly impossible to be successful unless you all'ined or muta'ed.
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muta vs muta does not at all reward the better player. i don't know what you guys are talking about.
it's all about who got his gases faster while maintaining somewhat okay mineral income (read: making 5k drones and super quick 4 gases and hoping opponent doesn't allin) and then he couldn't lose anymore because even just 2 or 3 mutas more makes you come out ahead gigantically in a fight which can't be microed at all. the outcome of a fight on even numbers is random because of the way muta bounces work.
also making mutas doesn't really require good macro to get down perfectly so you can't get ahead through better macro either, except higher ling count which isn't mutas and therefore won't help much except eating a few bounces.
best way to come back used to be crazy multi pronged multi task heavy aggression but the new spores coupled with a few spines pretty much make that option impossible.
so now the only option is hiding a base, hoping your opponent doesn't see it.
see the theme here?
gamblegamble, hope, luck. once ahead you won.
comebacks? skill? nah.
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Don't mind the patch. It just forces the people into the harder to play strategies, that easily worked before but needed a bit more investment to be save against Mutas.
I personally see this change as a chance to go back to a 12 second root time, because their detection isn't as need anymore.
And aside from that Mutas still work for me. Though I am rather inexperienced with them.
Anyway one step closer to Viper wars, that will make ZvZ look really silly. Vipers pulling everything back and forth while nomming on buildings all the time yay.
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On June 08 2013 23:37 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 23:18 lue wrote:On June 08 2013 23:07 emythrel wrote:On June 08 2013 21:08 Tsubbi wrote:On June 08 2013 20:56 Fody03 wrote:On June 08 2013 20:49 Tsubbi wrote:
it was a very strange bandaid fix and seriously it just feels wrong and lazy game design wise to buff static defense damage to a single unit of ones own race by 300%
gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad band aid or not,in ZvZ there more available tech patch now than just Muta vs Muta, i.e. SH vs Roach,fast ultras,etc Muta is still viable,its just more like WoL which was a way to get map control and then transition in other tech,like infestors. but thats just not how a game should be designed, like right now hellbat drops seem very strong especially in tvt, should they half the hellbat damage to scvs ? they should really come up with more elegant solutions No.... you should just make a couple more turrets. This ZvZ change was, imo, one of the best they've ever made.... it specifcally targets one matchup without effecting the others, which is how things should be done. There was no other way to do it, if you buff any other unit to deal with mutas then you would throw the balance off in another matchup, if you nerf mutas you do the same in favours of the other races. It wasn't a band aid at all, it was a targetted way to only effect that one specific matchup and strat. Mutas are still viable, they just aren't a killing blow any more... i've seen plenty of mutas since the patch in pro ZvZ, just no muta wars going on all game. They could've just given the bio damage buff to hydras(but obviously not that huge), thus allowing zergs to go either hydras OR mutas, it would also make hydras somewhat useful against bio terrans, thus creating additional options aside from ling/bling/muta into ultras in that matchup aswell. Hydras are already very strong in a straight up fight against bio. No bio terran would be able to hold a 2/2 timing with buffed hydras, not to even mention the fact that it would also buff roach/hydra against hellbats and thus mech. Also a buff against zealots, further complicating things... Luckily you aren't on the balance team. In worst case scenario terran would have to make 2 tanks right? It would break the game totally.
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Eh, the main problem for mutas from my point of view was that you send about ~20 mutas to harass the mineral line. With 1 or 2 spore crawlers at your mineral line, you might kill 2 mutas, since 20 mutas can easily kill a spore crawler.
It now seems more common to start ling/bane and go into roach/hydra in the ZvZ matchup.
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On June 09 2013 00:13 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 23:37 Bagi wrote:On June 08 2013 23:18 lue wrote:On June 08 2013 23:07 emythrel wrote:On June 08 2013 21:08 Tsubbi wrote:On June 08 2013 20:56 Fody03 wrote:On June 08 2013 20:49 Tsubbi wrote:
it was a very strange bandaid fix and seriously it just feels wrong and lazy game design wise to buff static defense damage to a single unit of ones own race by 300%
gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad band aid or not,in ZvZ there more available tech patch now than just Muta vs Muta, i.e. SH vs Roach,fast ultras,etc Muta is still viable,its just more like WoL which was a way to get map control and then transition in other tech,like infestors. but thats just not how a game should be designed, like right now hellbat drops seem very strong especially in tvt, should they half the hellbat damage to scvs ? they should really come up with more elegant solutions No.... you should just make a couple more turrets. This ZvZ change was, imo, one of the best they've ever made.... it specifcally targets one matchup without effecting the others, which is how things should be done. There was no other way to do it, if you buff any other unit to deal with mutas then you would throw the balance off in another matchup, if you nerf mutas you do the same in favours of the other races. It wasn't a band aid at all, it was a targetted way to only effect that one specific matchup and strat. Mutas are still viable, they just aren't a killing blow any more... i've seen plenty of mutas since the patch in pro ZvZ, just no muta wars going on all game. They could've just given the bio damage buff to hydras(but obviously not that huge), thus allowing zergs to go either hydras OR mutas, it would also make hydras somewhat useful against bio terrans, thus creating additional options aside from ling/bling/muta into ultras in that matchup aswell. Hydras are already very strong in a straight up fight against bio. No bio terran would be able to hold a 2/2 timing with buffed hydras, not to even mention the fact that it would also buff roach/hydra against hellbats and thus mech. Also a buff against zealots, further complicating things... Luckily you aren't on the balance team. In worst case scenario terran would have to make 2 tanks right? It would break the game totally.
Go ahead and see how much of an impact 2 tanks have against a maxed roach/hydra army.
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Bad patch. It was the wrong response to the muta-fest.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 08 2013 23:37 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 23:18 lue wrote:On June 08 2013 23:07 emythrel wrote:On June 08 2013 21:08 Tsubbi wrote:On June 08 2013 20:56 Fody03 wrote:On June 08 2013 20:49 Tsubbi wrote:
it was a very strange bandaid fix and seriously it just feels wrong and lazy game design wise to buff static defense damage to a single unit of ones own race by 300%
gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad band aid or not,in ZvZ there more available tech patch now than just Muta vs Muta, i.e. SH vs Roach,fast ultras,etc Muta is still viable,its just more like WoL which was a way to get map control and then transition in other tech,like infestors. but thats just not how a game should be designed, like right now hellbat drops seem very strong especially in tvt, should they half the hellbat damage to scvs ? they should really come up with more elegant solutions No.... you should just make a couple more turrets. This ZvZ change was, imo, one of the best they've ever made.... it specifcally targets one matchup without effecting the others, which is how things should be done. There was no other way to do it, if you buff any other unit to deal with mutas then you would throw the balance off in another matchup, if you nerf mutas you do the same in favours of the other races. It wasn't a band aid at all, it was a targetted way to only effect that one specific matchup and strat. Mutas are still viable, they just aren't a killing blow any more... i've seen plenty of mutas since the patch in pro ZvZ, just no muta wars going on all game. They could've just given the bio damage buff to hydras(but obviously not that huge), thus allowing zergs to go either hydras OR mutas, it would also make hydras somewhat useful against bio terrans, thus creating additional options aside from ling/bling/muta into ultras in that matchup aswell. Hydras are already very strong in a straight up fight against bio. No bio terran would be able to hold a 2/2 timing with buffed hydras, not to even mention the fact that it would also buff roach/hydra against hellbats and thus mech. Also a buff against zealots, further complicating things... Luckily you aren't on the balance team.
Roach hydra trades nicely with bio at the moment I have to say.
On June 09 2013 00:29 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 00:13 Tuczniak wrote:On June 08 2013 23:37 Bagi wrote:On June 08 2013 23:18 lue wrote:On June 08 2013 23:07 emythrel wrote:On June 08 2013 21:08 Tsubbi wrote:On June 08 2013 20:56 Fody03 wrote:On June 08 2013 20:49 Tsubbi wrote:
it was a very strange bandaid fix and seriously it just feels wrong and lazy game design wise to buff static defense damage to a single unit of ones own race by 300%
gameplay wise muta ling rewarded better players way more than the wol like roach play so no, i think the change was bad band aid or not,in ZvZ there more available tech patch now than just Muta vs Muta, i.e. SH vs Roach,fast ultras,etc Muta is still viable,its just more like WoL which was a way to get map control and then transition in other tech,like infestors. but thats just not how a game should be designed, like right now hellbat drops seem very strong especially in tvt, should they half the hellbat damage to scvs ? they should really come up with more elegant solutions No.... you should just make a couple more turrets. This ZvZ change was, imo, one of the best they've ever made.... it specifcally targets one matchup without effecting the others, which is how things should be done. There was no other way to do it, if you buff any other unit to deal with mutas then you would throw the balance off in another matchup, if you nerf mutas you do the same in favours of the other races. It wasn't a band aid at all, it was a targetted way to only effect that one specific matchup and strat. Mutas are still viable, they just aren't a killing blow any more... i've seen plenty of mutas since the patch in pro ZvZ, just no muta wars going on all game. They could've just given the bio damage buff to hydras(but obviously not that huge), thus allowing zergs to go either hydras OR mutas, it would also make hydras somewhat useful against bio terrans, thus creating additional options aside from ling/bling/muta into ultras in that matchup aswell. Hydras are already very strong in a straight up fight against bio. No bio terran would be able to hold a 2/2 timing with buffed hydras, not to even mention the fact that it would also buff roach/hydra against hellbats and thus mech. Also a buff against zealots, further complicating things... Luckily you aren't on the balance team. In worst case scenario terran would have to make 2 tanks right? It would break the game totally. Go ahead and see how much of an impact 2 tanks have against a maxed roach/hydra army.
Those two tanks would do nothing -.-
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When the patch was first implemented, people said it's not going to help much with muta wars in ZvZ.
Now that the patch has been applied for a few weeks, it seems that it is slowly starting to help diversify the ZvZ matchup, and we'll have to see how it unfolds in the future.
So far, the changes implemented are creative, and notably well-done.
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I still think mutas are the best strategy. Whenever my opponent goes for roach/hydra, I can easily deny their third and get a massive economic lead. Mutas aren't great in a direct fight once they get enough hydras, but I just morph a heap of banes and make sure I get bane speed. If they get too many roaches for the banes then I can just kill their hydras with mutas, but if they don't have enough roaches my banes kill the hydras. You also need to harass a lot with your mutas. A lot of the time gas, evo chambers, overlords or other random buildings aren't protected by spores, and can really give you a nice lead if you pick them off.
Usually they will stabalise and take their third, but this is when I take a fourth, tech to hive and get ultras out. I usually go for hive once I know they are commiting to roach hydra (pretty early), because it's basically impossible to lose once you get ultras and you have really good map control before then to tech safely.
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On June 08 2013 20:34 Aunvilgod wrote:
In case you do no know: The damage of spore crawlers vs biological was buffed twice from straight 15 to 15 +30 vs biological. The result of this is that spore crawlers 3shot mutas now which seems(!) to kill muta play in the matchup. Since the patch we predominantly see just roach into hydra play with hardly any lings or infestors in the mix.
Now to my question: Do you think the matchup is more fun to watch if it is roach vs roach as it is the case right now or if it is muta-ling-bling vs muta-ling-bling as it was previously? While there is the possibility that it will evolve I'll exclude that option for now. I personally think the muta-ling-bling was faster, more control-focused and in general more fun to watch.
The matchup is already more evolved. Just go back and watch WoL games: many of them included muta-->roach and roach-->hydra transitions. Both of them have been buffed, while the pure roach was not. So there is no reason to assume that the metagame is roach vs roach. It just happens that we haven't seen it alot in the 3 highlevel ZvZ series that everybody points towards.
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The issue is that it was the wrong buff and mutalisks are still incredibly strong. The reason players stopped using mutas is because they're a mid-game unit so roaches tend to rule the early game.
Hydralisks should have been buffed instead of spore crawlers. Void Rays have essentially broken ZvP, Hydra/Roach is still a total troll build in TvZ and Hydralisks have been notoriously awful since 2010.
Really, Hydralisks should be hatchery tech. So many balance issues would have been outright solved had hydras been hatchery tech.
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EPT
